Brawl+ Official Stage Discussion.

[Ulevo]

The goal of Brawl Plus is to increase the amount of viable options at the disposal to players, meanwhile maintaing effective character balance throughout the whole cast of characters, in order to help improve competitive play. Modifications to characters themselves are at the heart of the project, but I feel stages are very important as well, and thus I have taken up the responsibility of this threads creation.

Stages such as Warioware and PS2 have already undeniably been transformed in to neutral status stages, displaying the benefit of what a simple modification can do to benefit the viable options for stage selection. Here, we will discuss any and all recommendations to help improve the chances of stages reaching neutral status, or in the very least, legal status. Note that any stages currently marked as Neutral, or stages that do not pose as possible suspects for reaching Banned status that are not neutral will be disregarded from discussion unless otherwise noted.

Below each stage image, I will put any and all valid and constructive recommendations for improvements so they can be tracked and potentially used later on for code hacks. Please note that although some stages may forever be locked within a specified status due to their design, such as stages like New Pork City, who may I be to tell the community what they can and cannot accomplish. So, I will leave all suspect stages up for discussion for the first few discussions until I feel it is necessary to remove them from the topic. Should a new suggestion arise for a removed stage, I will repost and discussion will continue for that particular map.

Bridge Of Eldin

Rumble Falls

Skyworld

Halberd

Shadow Moses Island

New Pork City

Pictochat

Summit

Norfair

Mario Circuit

Frigate Orpheon

Distant Planet

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1

Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2

Port Town Aero Dive

Marios Bros.

Green Hill Zone

Flat Zone 2

Luigis Mansion

Spear Pillar

Green Greens

Big Blue

75m

Jungle Japes

Hanenbow

Pirate Ship

Temple

Yoshis Island (Melee)

Corneria

Onett

Brinstar

Rainbow Cruise

 

[goodoldganon]

Bridge of Eldin

Preventing the Moblin from dropping the bomb helps those with good ground games or poor recoveries, but promotes camping. Either way it's something to consider.

Halberd

Remove the claw since it's the only real disruption.

Shadow Moses

Let's see what the tech code does with falls.

Pictochat

Remove the rockets and maybe the spike fence cause otherwise the obstacles are fair and balanced.

Mario Circuit

The cars are too persistent. If they can be removed I think it's worth a shot since no other Smash game has allowed for walk off stages.

Frigate Orpheon

My only complaint with this stage is the wall where the platform moves vertically is ungrabable. Makes for disappointing recoveries and ruins tethers.

Distant Planet

I'd be up for trying to keep water on the slope at all times as well as having an active Bulbin (that doesn't eat you)

Port Town

Drop the KO potential of the cars by about 50%. The cars need to stay though.

Luigi's Mansion

Deadlands it and we have another neutral. Leave it and it's worse then the Temple's basement.

Spear Pillar

The idea we can keep the horizontal laser in the basement will prove fruitless. It's a multihit attack and some character might not be able to escape it. Overall the top half is great and I'd consider a code that removed the Pokemon interference AND left the hole in the middle of the platform, but overall it would still just be meh.

Green Greens

Freezing this prevents any extra blocks from spawning correct? Seems good to me.

Great Sea

Would be a fine stage without the bombs. Remove the bombs it's a CP. Otherwise it's banned.

Corneria

The stage plays well to those with strong vertical KOs. Vert KOs are tougher to come by now a days so I see no problem having a stage that favors them. If we really feel the stage needs work then just remove the Arwing. I heard that causes weird movement feelings though.

Castle Siege

The first part is a great neutral but the other two are CP material. We should make the first part in Stage Editor (and we can remove the **** lips there) and then leave the original on CP.

Brinstar

The lava is fine but I'd like to do something about that membrane in the middle. It's weird since sometimes you can't run/walk/roll over it for a second. So I'd consider removing it, but then it leaves this odd hole with no grab points in the center.

Onett

My only problem with this stage is the blue roof over hang. Doesn't seem like something we can fix.

Yoshi's Island

Freezing the stages makes the blocks stay in permanent spin, but it leaves that odd hole in the center. Still, the removal of the blocks is good to prevent those awful bounces.

Temple

It's just too big to be helped. Even if we could magically seal off parts of the stage you'd still need to divide it in thirds for them to be remotely decent sizes. Sorry, I don't think we can save this one.

Hanebow

What does freezing the stage do? If it prevent the leaves from moving the stage is worth considering but like Temple I don't think it's salvageable.

Big Blue

If we can get a code to keep the Falcon Flyer in place and remove the cars it would be an interesting stage.

Green Hills

Remove the checkpoints for sure. Not too sure about removing the ability to break the ground though.

 

[Ulevo]

Um... I think you've misunderstood the purpose for this threads creation. It isn't to attempt to make a stage list for Brawl Plus. It's meant to house discussion on modifications we can make to make stages better for competitive play.

i.e. Skyworld. It is in my personal opinion that if were to make the bottom floor of the stage solid, and potentially remove the roof of the stage so it is only the cloud, or make the top three platforms easier to break, it could potentially become Neutral. At the very least Counterpick.

If you have personal input to make as to what problems are currently present with stages in Brawl Plus, that's fine... But please for the sake of productivity, make sure that that input is used to help improve these stages.

 

[goodoldganon]

Edited my post. Hopefully it's what you were looking for.

 

[GameSystem]

For New Pork City make it so that once the chimeras appear, they don't go away ever, and more than one can spawn. That will seal off some areas and possibly reduce camping. Maybe if we just set the chimeras on infinite time, more will spawn anyway as time passes.

 

[Ulevo]

Bridge of Eldin

Preventing the Moblin from dropping the bomb helps those with good ground games or poor recoveries, but promotes camping. Either way it's something to consider.

I agree, although I still believe the fact that it's a walk off really prevents this stage from becoming at best counter pick.

Halberd

Remove the claw since it's the only real disruption.

I've actually witnessed people lose bracket matches in tourneys to the laser as well, where the laser would go off while they're recovering off stage, and prevent them from returning safely, thus resulting in a stock loss.

All in all, I don't see a reason for any of those hazards to exist. At least for the hazards in Pictochat, they don't target or favor a player in a given match.

Shadow Moses

Let's see what the tech code does with falls.

I think with decay gone, and no more wall infinites, this stage is a solid counter pick. The walls can be broken down, but will not remain that way indefinitely.

Pictochat

Remove the rockets and maybe the spike fence cause otherwise the obstacles are fair and balanced.

I agree. The plant is also an issue. Do you believe removing these obstacles or significantly reducing their threat would be more ideal?

Mario Circuit

The cars are too persistent. If they can be removed I think it's worth a shot since no other Smash game has allowed for walk off stages.

I really can't see this stage being saved. The cars aren't even that bad. It's the walk off that kills the potential here.

Frigate Orpheon

My only complaint with this stage is the wall where the platform moves vertically is ungrabable. Makes for disappointing recoveries and ruins tethers.

We could potentially allow for characters to grab this ledge. I'm quite sure it would turn the stage into a neutral. But it's a decent stage now as it is too.

Distant Planet

I'd be up for trying to keep water on the slope at all times as well as having an active Bulbin (that doesn't eat you)

You know what, that's actually an awesome idea.

Port Town

Drop the KO potential of the cars by about 50%. The cars need to stay though.

Agreed. It would become a much cooler mute city from Melee.

Luigi's Mansion

Deadlands it and we have another neutral. Leave it and it's worse then the Temple's basement.

I think if we were to make it so we could break a whole side of the house by breaking down the bottom pillar and having both pillars topple would effectively prevent this stage from becoming as bad as it is. You'd have to play conservatively in order to preserve the stage, and yet you could still prevent people from living to 234532%. Meta Knight also doesn't have as much power on this stage anymore since Tornado no longer rises.

Spear Pillar

The idea we can keep the horizontal laser in the basement will prove fruitless. It's a multihit attack and some character might not be able to escape it. Overall the top half is great and I'd consider a code that removed the Pokemon interference AND left the hole in the middle of the platform, but overall it would still just be meh.

Here's an idea. Why don't we make it so that Dialga/Palkia/Cresselia break apart the middle of the floor when they first appear, but nullify all there other effects, and make sure that the stage doesn't reform afterwards? It would prove to be a solid neutral, I believe.

Green Greens

Freezing this prevents any extra blocks from spawning correct? Seems good to me.

What would we need to freeze the blocks for though? If anything, allowing them to be removed ensures we can stop characters from using them as a shield, which is also a good asset on this stage. Allows for a good balance in things. Although, if we could prevent bombs from spawning, I think that would be best.

Great Sea

Would be a fine stage without the bombs. Remove the bombs it's a CP. Otherwise it's banned.

Either that, or significantly reduce their power. Whatever everyone else thinks. It would probably be best to get rid of them. As well as that silly device that catapults you off the boat.

Corneria

The stage plays well to those with strong vertical KOs. Vert KOs are tougher to come by now a days so I see no problem having a stage that favors them. If we really feel the stage needs work then just remove the Arwing. I heard that causes weird movement feelings though.

I'm not sure what to do with this stage yet personally, so I'll leave withhold my ideas.

Castle Siege

The first part is a great neutral but the other two are CP material. We should make the first part in Stage Editor (and we can remove the **** lips there) and then leave the original on CP.

I can't see why this stage isn't neutral. All of the transformations don't heavily benefit any specific character.

Brinstar

The lava is fine but I'd like to do something about that membrane in the middle. It's weird since sometimes you can't run/walk/roll over it for a second. So I'd consider removing it, but then it leaves this odd hole with no grab points in the center.

I think that might just be a personal vendetta you have.

Onett

My only problem with this stage is the blue roof over hang. Doesn't seem like something we can fix.

I don't know. The walk offs pose a problem. I like the stage, but I'm not sure if it's tournament viable.

Yoshi's Island

Freezing the stages makes the blocks stay in permanent spin, but it leaves that odd hole in the center. Still, the removal of the blocks is good to prevent those awful bounces.

I see nothing wrong with the blocks. The walk off to the side concerns me, however because of the angle I think it would pose more of a issue to the camper in question, so it may not be worth the risk.

Temple

It's just too big to be helped. Even if we could magically seal off parts of the stage you'd still need to divide it in thirds for them to be remotely decent sizes. Sorry, I don't think we can save this one.

This stage is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned.

Hanebow

What does freezing the stage do? If it prevent the leaves from moving the stage is worth considering but like Temple I don't think it's salvageable.

I'm not sure how the new mechanics would effect this stage in terms of playability, but I'm assuming it's a lost cause as well.

Big Blue

If we can get a code to keep the Falcon Flyer in place and remove the cars it would be an interesting stage.

That is something to consider. I didn't think of that. Although I feel that takes away from what the stage actually is.

Green Hills

Remove the checkpoints for sure. Not too sure about removing the ability to break the ground though.

Again, the walk off is my only concern. The check points are manageable.

For New Pork City make it so that once the chimeras appear, they don't go away ever, and more than one can spawn. That will seal off some areas and possibly reduce camping. Maybe if we just set the chimeras on infinite time, more will spawn anyway as time passes.

That is a very interesting, rather hilarious, and probably completely terrible idea competitively speaking. But if it's a lost cause, what do we have to lose right?

 

[goodoldganon]

I kind of want to see how walk off edges play out in Brawl+. I agree they will probably be as bad as you suggest, but they haven't been given an equal chance because of Brawl's campy nature and waveshining in Melee.

There should be at least 1 stage on the counterpick list that is a walk off. Walk offs are great for tether characters since they don't have to deal with their easy to gimp recoveries. The question is, which of the walk of stages can we work with and make a good stage.

That's why my vote is Mario Circuit with no cars.

Also, maybe I misunderstood but freezing Green Greens has a random set of blocks appear, but once destroyed they are gone forever. I don't think the tree blows anymore either.

 

[Steel]

Is it possible to have no bombs drop on Green Greens, just the regular ones?

 

[Ulevo]

I'm not sure, but I would definitely feel that would be the best option for Green Greens.

And walk offs are not necessary for tethers anymore anyway. Ivysaur and Olimar were the only characters to ever be of a concern, and Ivysaur is really hard to gimp now. Olimar I am unsure of. If you need a good stage to prevent gimps, stages like Pirate Ship can work well.

 

[GameSystem]

Goodoldganon is this what you meant by removing cars on big blue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkgSxJrvuXQ

All I want is the fish removed from Summit, and the blocks on skyworld unbreakable.
Almas made a hazard knockback modifier I believe. He can use that for the bombs on the pirate ship.
Fun fact: If you reverse jungle japes, the klaptrap never appears, and the water still pushes you to the left. The animation is the wrong direction though. Meh.

 

[Ulevo]

Goodoldganon is this what you meant by removing cars on big blue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkgSxJrvuXQ

All I want is the fish removed from Summit, and the blocks on skyworld unbreakable.
Almas made a hazard knockback modifier I believe. He can use that for the bombs on the pirate ship.
Fun fact: If you reverse jungle japes, the klaptrap never appears, and the water still pushes you to the left. The animation is the wrong direction though. Meh.

I'm don't think removing the fish would necessarily make the stage legal, as it is subject to the loop effect, although a small one. It could be turned legal potentially.

 

[GameSystem]

Infinite dropping icicles? They drop near the middle. It might stop running in circles.

 

[Ulevo]

Infinite dropping icicles? They drop near the middle. It might stop running in circles.

That seems kind of silly to be honest. And I'm pretty sure knocking yourself into it would result in 999%.

 

[GameSystem]

OK the icicles seem to drop once every 20 seconds. If we increase it to maybe once every 1 second it may hamper looping because they have to time the run or something. They do 20% and ok knockback. Not much to worry about.

 

[Adapt]

Big Blue is unsalvageable... Diddy is unstoppable because he can make you trip right off the flier or the cars and immediately get left behind and die. I demolished some friends of mine in an FFA by using almost only bananas

Walk-off stages are still not very good and I wouldn't use any. Same with any stage with a cave of live unless we can find some way to negate the cave.

btw, does anyone else think warioware is really small?

 

[GameSystem]

I found another way to solve the looping problem summit has. At one point the stage goes semi underwater and the basement is flooded. You have to swim and you can't quickly get to the other side. What if we made the basement always shallow water?

 

[Ulevo]

On one hand, the stage is quite small. The loop effect may not be a major issue on this stage. If we were to save it, I would suggest getting rid of the Icicle, and freezing the level once it hits the water so this isn't an instant win against tether characters.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I honestly think the Halberd should just be left alone and moved to counterpick. It's a decent stage as is, just not neutral material. Why edit an already perfect counterpick?

Walk offs aren't as big of an issue as they were in Melee or vBrawl, so I'll throw my vote in for car-less Onett and Mario Circuit, if just to see how it plays out.

 

[Ulevo]

Why leave hazards on a stage alone when they kill you? The stage is great, there isn't anything about it to modify. It's the hazards that pose a problem with it's stage legality. It isn't even a level where you can use these unique traits to your advantage, or to add a part of them to your game. They're just there, and they randomly select and target a player, potentially skewing the outcome of a match.

Sounds like a perfect reason to modify it to me.

Also. Please explain to me how walk offs are not as big a deal in Brawl Plus as they were in Melee/64/vBrawl? The only thing that differentiates between Braw Plus and Melee/vBrawl is we do not have Fox's Waveshine or Dedede's CG. We can still effectively camp the blastzones. It's not a hard thing to do. Any idiot can do this, and it's a throw a stock. Especially on levels like Onett and Mario Circuit, where they are covered by obstacles or platforms, making the camping easier by limiting the approach options of the opponent.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Because it's unnecessary? Halberd is perfectly legal as is. The only hazard that should kill you by itself is the claw. And even it's not a big deal, as it's predictable and easily shielded/dodged. You just have to pay attention.
Chucking your opponent into a cannonball isn't using the stage to your advantage?

I suppose if we get Gecko 2.0 and therefor have an abundance of lines, then it's worth a shot.


It's also not a hard thing to stop. Added shield-stun, L canceling, and improved aerial control all make shield grabbing less effective. With shield-grabs out of the equation, the only way to effectively camp the side blastlines is to try and combo your opponent off the side, or get behind them.

Since the camper is much closer to the blastline, a grab or decent aerial will get them killed. If they do land a grab, they take a stock.


Sure, a few characters will have a hard time stopping it. That's why it's a counterpick.

Onett is arguable, but I think Mario Kart with no cars would be a pretty decent CP.

 

[leafgreen386]

Actually, if spunit ever figures out how to make stage boundary changes stage specific, we could potentially turn a lot more banned stages into counters or even neutrals.

Look at temple. If we moved the bottom and right kill boundaries to be lined up with the platform that just sorta sticks out in the middle of the stage there, we could have a potentially neutral level. Albeit, the proportions of stage to offstage would be slightly odd, with a very shallow bottom and a very small right side, while having a huge ceiling (not like we couldn't change that, too, though) and a moderate left side. It would give a decently large area to play in while if you played near the edges, you would get relatively early kills. There's only one problem, and that's the drop through platform that leads into the cave of immortality. We'd have to be careful about this when adjusting the kill bounds, as if you could stand on the platform it would be one of the stupidest sharking spots ever, but as long as you couldn't stand on it, it could provide some interesting depth to the level, dropping down to near death and jumping back up for aerial combos, anyone?

It would look something like this:

As for new pork city, there appear to be two obvious sections we would want to use.

They both have their flaws, but it would certainly turn it into a playable stage.

We could do a similar fix for spear pillar. Just freeze it and cut off the bottom and you have a perfectly neutral stage.

As for walkoffs... I'd like to try them in brawl+ before we discard them. BoE (after killing the moblin) and mario circuit are both fine stages otherwise (I'd mention a frozen flatzone 2, but that stage is tiny).

There's also luigi's mansion, which becomes a really nice neutral with the deadland's code.

I also agree with removing the hazards on halberd. They're anti-competitive.

I'm also going to concur with Ulevo that making it so it's always raining on distant planet is an awesome idea. The stage would be twice as banworthy as it is now if it was just frozen (infinite loop with sideB recoveries lol), and it would still have the problem of camping on the ledge, but the water takes care of both of those issues. A really, really nice fix.

The problem is... these changes are all if lines permit. If we don't get gecko 2.0, then most of them are unlikely to be able to be made.

I've made a rather huge post about what I think we should do with the stages before, but I don't really feel like finding it right now. It's somewhat outdated, anyway.

 

[Steel]

I think new pork would still be extremely campy, however i really like what you did with hyrule.

 

[Deleted member]

I also agree with removing the hazards on halberd. They're anti-competitive.

Fountain of dreams anyone?
And also, Why not use halberd both frozen and unfrozen? frozen as neutral, and unfrozen as counterpick.

 

[leafgreen386]

Because a frozen halberd may as well just be called "the hangar." It's a walkoff level before the stage takes off.

I think new pork would still be extremely campy, however i really like what you did with hyrule.

Thanks. NPC would be in no way neutral even with the changes, but it might be able to be used as a CP with option B. Option A would probably have issues with the platform being up against a wall.

 

[Swordplay]

I know I'm kind of thinking way abstract here.

What if you could reverse bridge of eldin? When the moblin blows up the stage all you have is the 2 sides and no center. What if you could reverse the stage so you just have the center and no sides? It would become like a shorter version of FD. and almost a neutral. (assuming this gets rid of walk off)

I mean there have got to be 2 different ID's 1 for the part that gets blown up and 1 for the part that doesn't. But I don't really know that much about stage coding. I don't even know if that code is possible. But I brought up the idea because of my hunch that the stage has 2 different code ID's. (though that may not be how it works)




I like what you did with spear pillar leaf. I could see myself playing on part A of new pork. (B is awkward because of stacked platforms)

The temple thing is interesting but I think the floor boundary might be to shallow as plenty of characters need more room to recover from below.

 

[GHNeko]

Actually, if spunit ever figures out how to make stage boundary changes stage specific, we could potentially turn a lot more banned stages into counters or even neutrals.

Look at temple. If we moved the bottom and right kill boundaries to be lined up with the platform that just sorta sticks out in the middle of the stage there, we could have a potentially neutral level. Albeit, the proportions of stage to offstage would be slightly odd, with a very shallow bottom and a very small right side, while having a huge ceiling (not like we couldn't change that, too, though) and a moderate left side. It would give a decently large area to play in while if you played near the edges, you would get relatively early kills. There's only one problem, and that's the drop through platform that leads into the cave of immortality. We'd have to be careful about this when adjusting the kill bounds, as if you could stand on the platform it would be one of the stupidest sharking spots ever, but as long as you couldn't stand on it, it could provide some interesting depth to the level, dropping down to near death and jumping back up for aerial combos, anyone?

It would look something like this:

As for new pork city, there appear to be two obvious sections we would want to use.

They both have their flaws, but it would certainly turn it into a playable stage.

We could do a similar fix for spear pillar. Just freeze it and cut off the bottom and you have a perfectly neutral stage.

As for walkoffs... I'd like to try them in brawl+ before we discard them. BoE (after killing the moblin) and mario circuit are both fine stages otherwise (I'd mention a frozen flatzone 2, but that stage is tiny).

There's also luigi's mansion, which becomes a really nice neutral with the deadland's code.

I also agree with removing the hazards on halberd. They're anti-competitive.

I'm also going to concur with Ulevo that making it so it's always raining on distant planet is an awesome idea. The stage would be twice as banworthy as it is now if it was just frozen (infinite loop with sideB recoveries lol), and it would still have the problem of camping on the ledge, but the water takes care of both of those issues. A really, really nice fix.

The problem is... these changes are all if lines permit. If we don't get gecko 2.0, then most of them are unlikely to be able to be made.

I've made a rather huge post about what I think we should do with the stages before, but I don't really feel like finding it right now. It's somewhat outdated, anyway.

To be quite honest, those stages could be created with custom stages. >_>

Because not only would you have to alter the blast zones, you would have to force the camera to pan towards the area in which the new blast zones inhabit. Something like that sames less viable than Techjumping.

 

[Ulevo]

Because it's unnecessary? Halberd is perfectly legal as is. The only hazard that should kill you by itself is the claw. And even it's not a big deal, as it's predictable and easily shielded/dodged. You just have to pay attention.
Chucking your opponent into a cannonball isn't using the stage to your advantage?

I suppose if we get Gecko 2.0 and therefor have an abundance of lines, then it's worth a shot.

I want to make it clear to everyone that the purpose intended for this thread is all assuming we have the room to make every one of these changes. If we limit our potential to the code space we currently have, we're less likely to fix these problems when Geck 2.0 or another substitute comes along. So don't make justifications based on what we're currently capable of.

As for Halberd, the Claw can hit you if you're locked in to hit stun from another attack, or attack you while you're attempting to get back on stage. The laser is also very capable of killing you if it is fired near the edge. The bomb is a less likely obstacle to confront in a match, but I still think it is unnecessary.

Like I said previous. I know people first hand that have lost tournament matches to that stage in circumstances they could not prevent. I don't support that in the least. Tripping has less than a 1% chance of occurring. I see removing tripping, a random occurrence, as no different.

It's also not a hard thing to stop. Added shield-stun, L canceling, and improved aerial control all make shield grabbing less effective. With shield-grabs out of the equation, the only way to effectively camp the side blastlines is to try and combo your opponent off the side, or get behind them.

Not all attacks are capable of preventing shield grabs. Spacing is still key for many moves, and the risk involved is too great for the cost you pay if you're grabbed. You do realize that shield stun, L Canceling, and improved aerial control were ALL IN MELEE, and we still banned walk offs, correct? Explain to me why this is any different.

Since the camper is much closer to the blastline, a grab or decent aerial will get them killed. If they do land a grab, they take a stock.

Then the game centralizes around blastzone camping. I don't think that is something we want to promote. Planking can be stopped in vBrawl, but it isn't something we want to encourage in Brawl Plus either.

Sure, a few characters will have a hard time stopping it. That's why it's a counterpick.

Onett is arguable, but I think Mario Kart with no cars would be a pretty decent CP.

A counter pick is meant to give the player an advantage, either by stage layout or personal preference. Blastzone camping works on essentially anyone (especially on Onett), and is very risky to attempt to stop because it can cost you a stock to prevent the tactic in the first place.

Mario Kart with no cars would be that there would be no way to come in from up high via aerial approach. That limits the approaches ability to stop the tactic.


On another note, I think it is important that we attempt to keep the integrity of the stages we are modifying. There is no sense in completely rearranging a stage when we could duplicate the same result as a Custom Stage. And that includes making every other stage in to "just another Final Destination". What's the point?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

As I said, if Gecko 2.0 or a substitute is released, then I wouldn't argue against them if everyone deems their removal necessary. They don't seem a big issue to me, but I'm not the community. >_>

The level of aerial control possible in Melee is not the same as Brawl+. Not to mention the lack of friction, making shield grabs harder still.
On that note, hitting the camper's shield with a powerful attack could easily push them past the blastline.
Walk-off camping is not an issue, in my opinion. Maybe on Onett. Not so much on Mario Circuit.

Why would you come in from high above your opponent in the first place? If you must, you could always hold down and fall through the platform.



Agreed, but some of Leaf's ideas show promise. Especially Spear Pillar.

 

[Ulevo]

I believe the idea I presented before would be a much more interesting stage for Spear Pillar. Leafs example can be recreated in Custom Stages quite easily. However, my idea may not be very fruitful if the opponent is still able to stall even with the basement being accessible from the middle.

 

[BadGuy]

Bridge of Eldin
Any stage that has constant walkable off screen option shouldn't have a place in a tourny.

Halberd
The claw and laser can be a real bummer. Removing those would be great.

Shadow Moses
Walkable off screen= no go.

Pictochat
I never really liked this stage that much because of the random dangers that appeared, so removing those would make this stage less threatening.

Mario Circuit
Walk off stage, **** can it.

Frigate Orpheon
Stage flipping is usually not a problem for me, but every once in a while, it'll grab me and I'm screwed. I would like to have that troublesome function shut off. Maybe if you set it up so at random, when this stage is selected, you have a chance of getting the upside down stage choice instead of the other, with no flipping.

Distant Planet
Walk off stage, bleh..

Port Town
Get rid of the **** cars, and we got our mute city back. That or, just lower damage so they don't kill you to death at 30%.

Luigi's Mansion
Honestly..I think this stage is fine the way it is. No need to tinker with it.

Spear Pillar
Keep the pokemon out of it, and this would be a fun stage.

Green Greens
I don't really know what to think of this stage, it's got a great low ceiling, so it's a good choice for a bowser main such as myself, just the blocks can be troublesome at times.

Great Sea
Getting bomb'd makes this stage scary, get rid of that, and I'm cool with everything else.

Corneria
I don't really have a problem with this stage, other then occasionally getting carried off screen from the arwings. But whateva.

Castle Siege
I don't really have a problem with this stage, other then the walk off screen bull. But this stage is such a good counter pick I don't have too much a problem with it.

Brinstar
The center membrane destroyable thing can occationally prevent you from running and can also slow your attacks down, it'd be great if you guys could tinker that out.

Onett
Walk off stage, no thank you.

Yoshi's Island
I don't really like this stage, sure the shallow edges make for a great counter pick, but the blocks and walk off stage just doesnt make this seem worth spending time on.

Temple
Too big, ban'd

Hanebow
Ban'd

Big Blue
Fighting on a ship that doesn't drift away, on a speeding high way, no cars, ONLY ONE WILL SURVIVE. That sounds like a one hellava stage.

Green Hills
I'm sorry, as much as I love sonic, I can't see this stage being tourney legal, no matter how much you pick and tear at it. Walk off stages...

 

[Ulevo]

I actually think the idea for Frigate Orpheon is a good alternative. It could act like Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 and 1-2, where if you hold a specified button before choosing, it would open up on that specific part of the stage.

Of course, we could always just add a ledge on the right side of 1-1. I have never died on Frigate Orpheon for reasons other than not paying attention, and it gives you a huge warning in advance when it flips.

 

[leafgreen386]

Frigate Orpheon
Stage flipping is usually not a problem for me, but every once in a while, it'll grab me and I'm screwed. I would like to have that troublesome function shut off. Maybe if you set it up so at random, when this stage is selected, you have a chance of getting the upside down stage choice instead of the other, with no flipping.

Maybe if you set it up so at random, when this stage is selected, you have a chance of getting the upside down stage choice instead of the other, with no flipping.

Maybe if you set it up so at random, when this stage is selected

if you set it up so at random

at random

random

Give me one good reason why after that, I should take anything you said in that post seriously.

I believe the idea I presented before would be a much more interesting stage for Spear Pillar. Leafs example can be recreated in Custom Stages quite easily. However, my idea may not be very fruitful if the opponent is still able to stall even with the basement being accessible from the middle.

Well, the thing is I'm not sure how viable it will be to use custom stages. They can't be properly put on random (they would all go on random if you did that, and since there's only one occurrence of "custom" in the random selection, they would also not be played in proportional amounts), and it would require that all of the correct custom stages be pre-loaded onto the wii in a tourney. Not on an sd card. On the wii. Remember that codes are going to be loaded from a single sd card (the TO's) for all the wiis, to ensure it's the proper codeset. If we were to use custom stages, it would require specifically loading all the custom stages onto each of the wiis, and then deleting any other custom stages they may have on there if we wanted to put the custom stages on random.

 

[Ulevo]

Well, for the record, I don't think many tournaments use Random to select their neutrals anymore. At all. It's all done with Stage Striking, which is a significantly better alternative to choosing the first stage.

But you're right, attempting to use customs in a tournament would be a hassle, and thus it could be argued that your stage idea for Spear Pillar could be implemented for the sake of making it easier. I also like the idea I presented because it adds more diversity to the stages we currently have. Lets face it, we're not exactly lacking flat stages with a platform or two on each side, especially if we start modifying currently banned stages (i.e. Warioware). I'd like to avoid duplicate stage layouts if possible while still managing to implement as many neutral stages as possible. The same also goes for counter picks.

Obviously if we modified stages like Pictochat to have no transformations at all, we'd have another Final Destination... And one or the other would virtually never be used. That defeats the purpose of what we're attempting to do.

 

[spunit262]

I just had an Idea for Big Blue, Half speed. I don't think any has really tested it yet. Ganon is almost able to recover after fall on the track.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Hmm. Big Blue would be incredibly interesting if almost everyone could keep up with the track. Running fight. =D

Also, leave the Frigate alone. That stage is awesome, and honestly needs no changes. Add an edge if it's possible and we have an abundance of lines.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Pictochat
I never really liked this stage that much because of the random dangers that appeared, so removing those would make this stage less threatening.

agreed, but personal preference aside the stage really is fine how it is.

Great Sea
Getting bomb'd makes this stage scary, get rid of that, and I'm cool with everything else.

yeah.

Castle Siege
I don't really have a problem with this stage, other then the walk off screen bull. But this stage is such a good counter pick I don't have too much a problem with it.

I'd actually like to see a freeze on the third part of the stage (starting there would be even better) and having it not tilt would make for a great neutral stage.

Big Blue
Fighting on a ship that doesn't drift away, on a speeding high way, no cars, ONLY ONE WILL SURVIVE. That sounds like a one hellava stage.

oh dear god yes. that would be the most ****ing epic stage EVER!

 

[Blank Mauser]

If Big Blue was made tourney viable, I'd ****.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I say we slow down the track so anyone can keep up, remove the cars, and call it a day.

Floating platform and running battle. xD

 

[FrozenHobo]

I say we slow down the track so anyone can keep up, remove the cars, and call it a day.

Floating platform and running battle. xD

lol

i think all of that but also make the main ship stay the entire time would be a great stage.

 

[Revven]

spunit already slow down Big Blue by half in Beta 4.0 without anyone knowing about it. Try it out >_>