Brawl - More complex than you think! [Essay Size]

[Pyr0]

Brawl - More complex than you think!​

Over the past few weeks, this forum has been bombarded with threads that attempted to discuss how SSB:B is starting to look like a game meant for anybody, that is easy to understand and play, and overall reducing its "Deep" gameplay, to sum it up, a lot of people are calling Brawl "Noob Friendly".

I disagree strongly, and in this Topic/Essay, I will post my ideas and reasoning about why Brawl is actually more complex that most people are giving it credit for, this of course, will all be backed up with a series of proof and logical arguments.

So now, I'm going to skip all the formal stuff an Essay should have, and jump straight to the arguments, witch for your viewing pleasure and easier understanding, will be separated in various categories.


General Gameplay:

As evidenced in the E for all (from here on we will call it E4A) Brawl with ought a doubt looks, feels and plays a tad slower, this, at first sight will make you think "the game has been dumbed down" sure! For the good casual player it has, but we (or most of us) as competitive Smash players are actually getting a much wider gap from casual to competitive...

How you ask? Easy! Advance techs!

In a game where everything is slower, being able to cancel all the lag out of you attacks, will greatly benefit you, so most competitive smashers will be leaps away from casual players in the speed department.

I don't want to focus on advance techs right now, as I will address them later in the thread.

Another important thing most of us noticed is that in Brawl, KOs take longer to achieve, the damage meter has to be quite higher than in melee to knock the foe out of the stage.

Well this is just helping noobs isn't it? Wrong!
It is actually widening the casual-competitive gap even more!

Sure its going to take a while longer to kill that beginner player, but consider this, he has to do the same to you! And you are a competitive player, one that can combo, cancel all the lag of the moves, and overall play better.
Even more! We know how to spike! Yes those low % damage kills are really going to come in handy, and as we know they aren't exactly a walk in the park to pull off (I smell the casual-competitive gap widening).

That’s all I got to say about the general "new" gameplay, on to the next category!


Stages:

Well this is quite hard to argument in favor or against it as we have yet to see the whole stage pool, but here it goes.

The stages we have managed to see so far look quite nice (visually and gameplay wise) no stage (arguably) has places that can be exploited by a single character (like Terminia fox illusion stall in melee).

In fact, the ones we've seen so far have interactive objects/traps witch adds to the so called depth of the game, it is now an advantage to know when or how each stage works and how you can use it to your advantage (most casual players don’t pay attention to every single detail of the stage E.g.: A lot don’t know that Samus' bombs in her stage can be spammed on the breakable living bridge thingy).

This isn't the biggest of complex addition, but it’s quite big to merit its own section.


Advance Techs:

Consider by most the overall key to make the game complex, but most fail to realize that Techs will exist as long as there are different characters.

Wavedashing is out, yes it’s a sad loss but we will live, due to the new Aerial Dodge system, wavedashing is no longer possible, and greatly reduces the flashiness of the game.
The loss of Wavedashing is always considered to be the death of competitive Smash, but please! Did we have WD in Smash 64? No!
Wavedash is gone, no need to discuss anymore about it. The past is the past.

L-cancel (L as in Lag) is still with us, and this is indeed the one tech that boosts the gap between casual and competitive.
L-cancel got (arguably) easier to do you just fastfall your attack.
But wait a second... noobs have a hard time L-canceling in Melee, and is just pressing a button when your character is touching the ground...
Now imagine this noob having to L-cancel a U-air... yeah that’s going to be funny to watch... They won’t be able to! Use common sense!
L-cancel being easier (for competitive players) will only allow us to do even more ridiculous stuff (E.g. Mario L-canceled F-air into a D-smash in practically the same instant) making the gap go crazy...

Because we know little about the Advance Techs, I’m going to stop posting about them now.


Character Specific:

In this section I will post how specific characters add “depth” to the game by their complex moves/strategy.

Mario: FLUDD out of a shield? I mean, wow! This could very well be used as and edgeguard, sent your opponent flying, grab the edge, FLUDD again, and re-grab edge, rinse and repeat till he’s out.

Peach: Assuming turnips come back, prepare yourself for a freaking turnip aerial bombardment, with the new easy aerial item grab; I can clearly see Peach doing some crazy *** turnip spamming air to ground.

Yoshi: He took a HUGE hit with the loss (or apparent loss) of double jump cancel, however he gained a third jump with he’s egg throw, I can clearly see some Egg spamming / stalling grabbing the edge, letting go, throwing egg, grabbing edge, repeat.

Bowser: Sweet mother of god! Where to start! Aimable fire breath can make a nice edgeguard and combo breaker, but the one true weapons that looks like its going to dominate, it’s the KLAW, in none of the video was a character able to escape its new throw, leading us to conclude that Bowsercides are going to be a key weapon to Boozer in Brawl.

Ike: If he is actually workable (changed, we discover Super Armor frames w/e), he could become a kill machine, he freaking KOs at 65% and has a crazy *** range! Ike is a pretty **** big dilemma in Brawl, he could suck *** or he could be a monster.

Pit: Did anybody say ultimate edgeguard? C’mon! He can fly (grab the edge, let go repeat) while slashing anybody that tries to recover! Also, he has a nasty projectile witch once mastered looks like a nice tool to use.

Pokemon Trainer: Where to start? This guy is incredible, 3 characters in one, it involves strategy, knowing the specifics of each character, mastering all 3, knowing how to counter him, knowing witch character excels at what, this guy could revolutionize Smash as we know it.

Snake: Neck break… we saw it in the video, if it works like an instant shield break of sorts it could very well become an attack of choice, imagine Neck Break into fully charged Smash (RPG?). It’s going to hurt.

Sonic: All I can say is he can attack after he’s Up+B and has better DI than jigglypuff…
Just watch a bit of he’s videos, once master I think Sonic is going to be one annoying little bugger.

Thread will be updated soon…

 

[Pyr0]

Reserved for future Updates

 

[Agosta44]

Tl;but I did read. Great topic, I enjoyed reading it. Lots of great points.

 

[Pookiez]

I really doubt that moves like marios fair will be able to be short hop L canceled (they have to fast fall at the top of the jump BEFORE you do the move to cancel its lag).

just food for thought, though I don't know exatly how long the move takes and how fast do they fastfall a shorthop

 

[finalark]

Really interesting, nice read.

 

[error_alt_delete]

you covered the points well. ya, casual players and competitive players are going to have a bigger gap. but there are a few things making this game more begginer freindly too, so dont go saying casuals will be out classed so greatly. we havnt even gotten the game yet.

 

[Someguy13]

I wonder if characters that can glide will be able to fast fall/l-cancel. Cuz to glide you hold down, right so how would that work?

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

*eyes on topic*

Expect somebody to say that automatic stuff like auto-lag-cancel is bad because it makes things easier for n00bs.

 

[Pyr0]

I really doubt that moves like marios fair will be able to be short hop L canceled (they have to fast fall at the top of the jump BEFORE you do the move to cancel its lag).

just food for thought, though I don't know exatly how long the move takes and how fast do they fastfall a shorthop

A nice thing to remind you all, a few of the examples I gave are purely hypothetical (but backed up by some kind of smash logic) so don't take them extremely seriously.

If you have a good point that you would like to add to the thread, please let me know, after this IS a discussion.

 

[Sl1th]

Nice novel..i mean essay :D

 

[tutata]

I love the WD man but its out now and i gotta let go and just like u said there was no WD in the 64 version, and that ISH was Raw, good people like us will always surface over the newbs with advance techniques so ya its probly gonna be a good game after we find more glitches. Dont forget to add that u cant press down on the ledge mkay.

 

[Blackadder]

Interesting read.
While I can see your points on how the game is...uhm, "L33t friendly" I can't shake the feeling that it is being dumbed down to an extent.
But you know what?
As far as I'm conserned, we'll all just have to adapt from Melee to Brawl.

While it sounds hard now, I'm SURE that after a heafty two weeks of Brawl playing, we'll all be dubing it the best thing since Jesus on toast, and all the previous months of fussing will look silly to us all.

Mark my words. It'll be easy for us all.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

One thing I found distasteful was the presence of massive freeze fames in brawl and the broken crouch canceling. I wa able to do SH Dair > U-smash with Fox without canceling, and CC into the ground and live at percentages of 250%+

 

[Boa]

Stop making the wait so much more painful!

I keep looking forward to the game less and less, then I read one of these threads and go "ARGH, WHY IS IT NOT IN MY WII RIGHT NOW?"

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Stop making the wait so much more painful!

I keep looking forward to the game less and less, then I read one of these threads and go "ARGH, WHY IS IT NOT IN MY WII RIGHT NOW?"

Here is how you can solve this problem:

1. Get off the internet.

Can't do that?

2.Be patient and wait for the game.

Can't do that either?

3. Don't buy the game.

You want the game? Then see option 1.


Sucks to be you then.us =/

 

[Pyr0]

Easy there Eternal phoenix Fire, I appreciate you (a smashboards member that has been around quite some time and actually played Brawl) posting in this thread, but theres no reason to flame...

One thing I found distasteful was the presence of massive freeze fames in brawl and the broken crouch canceling. I wa able to do SH Dair > U-smash with Fox without canceling, and CC into the ground and live at percentages of 250%+

If surviving is extremely easy in a competitive level, I think the normal "tournament rules" could shift accordingly, perhaps instead of 4 stocks only 3 or maybe 2... or change the damage ratio (I mean its there for something isn't it?).

Yup, I totally agree we will adapt perfectly into Brawl competitive, but a lot of people don't and thats the reason for this thread to exist.

^_^ thanks for taking the time to read all of it. ^_^

 

[heety9]

Pretty cool, this has really changed my views. Never noticed these things.

 

[rsc_390]

You started off great, I agree with many of your points. However half-way through you stopped making sense.

----------------------------

L-Cancelling

Think about what L-Canceling does. It basically exponentially increases combo potential right? Everyone complains "L-Canceling is easier for n00bs" and you counter "well its easier for us too!"

So how does that widen the gap? First of all, 90% of competitive players L-Cancel 99% of the time, so making it "easier" (which is still arguable btw) doesn't make it better for us, only for those who had trouble doing it (ie: noobs)

---------------------------------------

CHARACTERS

New moves that have lots of potential is NO proof of widening a gap. The gap exists b/c

1. difference in tech skill
2. application of techs/understanding of the game
3. mindgames

There are others but those are the main reasons. So a list new techniques, regardless of their potential, is no proof of a widening gap.

------------------------------------------------------

Now let me be clear. I am well aware that the above do not prove a SHRINKING gap either. I'm just saying they prove nothing.

However there is one factor that I will use to support my belief that the gap will indeed shrink.

online
How could you guys not consider this?! This is the reason Brawl was made in the first place!

Lets say (extreme example) the competitive community figures out a way to cancel J-Puff's rest lag (like I said extreme). Do you really think the n00bs won't notice? They're going to ask their n00b friends wtf just happened, and when they don't find out, they'll find their way here.

Isolation is the LARGEST reason the gap exists. In my high school years, I have met countless groups of 3-4 friends who play smash together, and think they are the best they could possibly be at the game. Then I invite them to one of my tournaments and they get walloped b/c my friends and I can use (or at least understand) adv. techniques.

Think about the first time you went to MLG and saw how crazy-awesome smash players could be! (i haven't experienced this myself, but you get the point).

-----------------------------------------------

To reiterate:

I believe the gap will widen, but I believe that this is a good thing.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Easy there Eternal phoenix Fire, I appreciate you (a smashboards member that has been around quite some time and actually played Brawl) posting in this thread, but theres no reason to flame...





If surviving is extremely easy in a competitive level, I think the normal "tournament rules" could shift accordingly, perhaps instead of 4 stocks only 3 or maybe 2... or change the damage ratio (I mean its there for something isn't it?).

Yup, I totally agree we will adapt perfectly into Brawl competitive, but a lot of people don't and thats the reason for this thread to exist.

^_^ thanks for taking the time to read all of it. ^_^

My bad Pyr0, i'm just a little on edge right now. I hate the constant complaints. WHY complain to us when your fascination with the game is completely under your control? My bad, though.

^^

 

[Blackadder]

My bad Pyr0, i'm just a little on edge right now. I hate the constant complaints. WHY complain to us when your fascination with the game is completely under your control? My bad, though.

^^

Awwwww.
We still love you Phoenix!

 

[Shadowclaw]

New moves that have lots of potential is NO proof of widening a gap. The gap exists b/c

1. difference in tech skill
2. application of techs/understanding of the game
3. mindgames

There are others but those are the main reasons. So a list new techniques, regardless of their potential, is no proof of a widening gap.

On the contrary: just like you said, the gap comes mostly from those 3 points, which can all be linked directly to the addition of new techniques.

Tech skill: Being able to perform X move while jumping and follow up with Y move or so. With more moves/techniques come new combos to explore, many of which will probably be hard to execute, which the average player may not be able to do.

Application: The biggest reason of why the gap will widen. Knowing when and how to apply a move effectively is what better distinguishes a good player from a bad player. Like I said in another thread, with the new l-canceling, it is possible that many people may start doing it "accidentally"; They may know how to do it, but only the good players will know how to apply if effectively to link moves into combos. That's just one example.

Mindgames: This one has more to do with the player's mentality than the game itself, but still, with new techniques comes more variation, and more unexpected things to do. More versatility usually adds more depth, which is ultimately better exploited by the better players.

Do you really think the n00bs won't notice? They're going to ask their n00b friends wtf just happened, and when they don't find out, they'll find their way here.

That is not shrinking the gap, that is players who want to get better at the game looking for ways to get better. If anything, it's websites like these that "shrink the gap" between good and bad players. I just have to say: Welcome to the internet! Of course that lack of knowledge is a big part why the gap exists, but players who actually want to dedicate time to getting better at the game will search wherever they can for tips on how to become better, be it game guides, videos on youtube, or fan sites like this one.

The thing here is that those kinds of players are probably not even 10% of all the people that play smash. The rest of the people play for fun, and may even give a **** (eh?! this got filtered?) about looking for guides on how to play a game. That kind of people will not bother on looking all over the place on how to do x-combo or so. And even so, so far as it's been seen here on smashboards, the majority of the competitive community will barely use the "With Anyone" online option. Beating up noobs might be fun, yes, but it also gets boring, and they will probably better enjoy playing a good match against someone their own level. Also, advanced techs in a four player quick brawl will get overlooked by most.

Summing up: I also agree that the gap may widen, as opposed to what many competitive elitists think. It's just a matter of getting over of the old melee mentality and explore the new depths this game has to offer. It is a change for the good, people! Very good thread, by the way. Bravo!

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

That is not shrinking the gap, that is players who want to get better at the game looking for ways to get better. If anything, it's websites like these that "shrink the gap" between good and bad players. I just have to say: Welcome to the internet! Of course that lack of knowledge is a big part why the gap exists, but players who actually want to dedicate time to getting better at the game will search wherever they can for tips on how to become better, be it game guides, videos on youtube, or fan sites like this one.

Good god, that is so QFT. I thought community expansion was good, guys.

 

[skellitorman]

I heard that you can't fastfall in the middle of an aerial, and I heard that fastfalls fall significantly fast (according to gimpyfish thread). This means that L-cancel will be much harder in my opinion. Have you ever tried doing a fast fall and then an aerial in melee? It is really difficult. The only moves that I could pull off was the neutral air. Being able to fast fall whenever in the middle of an aerial plus pressing L when you land is VERY easy IMO.

This is going to make SHFFls really difficult to do or not practical to do IMO. I am just speculating as I was not at E for all, but if this is true, then it is definitely more difficult.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Great, an essay about how good/knowledgeable/competitive players will still destroy bad/uninformed/casual ones. Because everyone was REALLY worried about that not being the case </sarcasm>

News flash: Tournament players don't especially enjoy destroying casuals. If they're being cocky, or willing to money match, then there's the benefit of shutting the guy up or winning some cash. But the actual match won't be anything more than minor tech skill practice, which gets old fast, or repeating the same basic tactics that the opponent can't deal with, which gets old faster.

What competitive players are actual concerned about, though, is how games between two good people will play out years down the line. In Melee, winning a high-level tournament match isn't as simple as spamming the same moves/combos/strategies for four stocks. You have to be constantly mixing things up, guessing the opponents reactions, varying your approach, feinting, picking up on any habits to exploit, all while staying in control of your character, spacing yourself properly, and avoiding your opponents attempts to combo/gimp kill/otherwise KO you. If Brawl matches between two highly knowledgeable, good players ends up being decided purely by, say, who has the more accurate aerial spacing, or who gets the opponent offstage first, no one will want to play it competitively, and all but the most inept gamers will get board of the multiplayer very quickly.

Summary: I don't care if I can beat bad players in Brawl, I want playing good people to be fun, challenging, and to vary drastically from player to player.

 

[5150]

whyt do all these topics seem like desperate people trying to rationalize brawl being worse than melee in terms of depth?

 

[Sliq]

The ledge snap mechanic/auto-sweet spot mechanic is ********. That is all.

 

[rsc_390]

On the contrary: just like you said, the gap comes mostly from those 3 points, which can all be linked directly to the addition of new techniques.

Tech skill: Being able to perform X move while jumping and follow up with Y move or so. With more moves/techniques come new combos to explore, many of which will probably be hard to execute, which the average player may not be able to do.

Application: The biggest reason of why the gap will widen. Knowing when and how to apply a move effectively is what better distinguishes a good player from a bad player. Like I said in another thread, with the new l-canceling, it is possible that many people may start doing it "accidentally"; They may know how to do it, but only the good players will know how to apply if effectively to link moves into combos. That's just one example.

Mindgames: This one has more to do with the player's mentality than the game itself, but still, with new techniques comes more variation, and more unexpected things to do. More versatility usually adds more depth, which is ultimately better exploited by the better players.

That is not shrinking the gap, that is players who want to get better at the game looking for ways to get better. If anything, it's websites like these that "shrink the gap" between good and bad players. I just have to say: Welcome to the internet! Of course that lack of knowledge is a big part why the gap exists, but players who actually want to dedicate time to getting better at the game will search wherever they can for tips on how to become better, be it game guides, videos on youtube, or fan sites like this one.

The thing here is that those kinds of players are probably not even 10% of all the people that play smash. The rest of the people play for fun, and may even give a **** (eh?! this got filtered?) about looking for guides on how to play a game. That kind of people will not bother on looking all over the place on how to do x-combo or so. And even so, so far as it's been seen here on smashboards, the majority of the competitive community will barely use the "With Anyone" online option. Beating up noobs might be fun, yes, but it also gets boring, and they will probably better enjoy playing a good match against someone their own level. Also, advanced techs in a four player quick brawl will get overlooked by most.

Summing up: I also agree that the gap may widen, as opposed to what many competitive elitists think. It's just a matter of getting over of the old melee mentality and explore the new depths this game has to offer. It is a change for the good, people! Very good thread, by the way. Bravo!

Yes the gap may widen. My point though is that new techniques is NOT proof that it WILL widen. Let me go over the problems with your counter-argument.

-------------------

"Application: The biggest reason of why the gap will widen. Knowing when and how to apply a move effectively is what better distinguishes a good player from a bad player."

This is the biggest reason the gap EXISTS. But the biggest reason of why the gap will widen? Why?

Some melee moves can have seemingly infinite applications, while others are extremely straightforward (ie: shine vs. Ness' neutral B)

Since we do not know the applicability of any new move, we cannot conclude that our superior ability to apply techniques will WIDEN the gap. For all we know the 1000 new techniques are all as simplistic as Ness' neutral B (I doubt this but do you see my point?)

-------------------

part 1: new techs

"More versatility usually adds more depth, which is ultimately better exploited by the better players."

You cannot assume MORE VERSATILITY. More moves does not necessarily mean more versatility! Here are two adv.-techs in Melee

jump-cancel grab
wavedash

Are they both useful? Of course.
Which one adds more depth to the game? Wavedashing.
Which one is harder to perform? wavedashing (I assume this is the case for most)

Since we don't fully understand the new Brawl techs (nor do we know if which will be in the final build) we don't know which will be the equivalents of jump-canceling, and which will be the wavedashing equivalents.

Let me propose a hypothetical situation. What if NO new techniques were added, the engine was the same, and Brawl was simply Melee w/o wavedashing and w/o L-canceling.

Would the gap shrink? of course.

Naturally this is not the case. But think of this: if losing such techs shrink the gap, would getting news gaurantee the widening of it? WE DON'T KNOW! Because

WE DON'T KNOW HOW THESE NEW TECHNIQUES, IN A NEW PHYSICS ENGINE, COMPARE TO THE LOST TECHNIQUES IN THE MELEE ENGINE

Please understand. I'm not saying the gap cannot widen. I'm saying that its IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL how the new techniques will impact the metagame. If you can prove me wrong on that statement, go right ahead and try (remember that E for All evidence is meaningless considering the fact that its a demo, and could easily be overhauled).

--------------------------------

part 2: ease of use

It SEEMS (though not confirmed) that adv. techniques are generally easier or just as difficult to perform as in Melee. My best example is EDGEHOGGING.

Previously edgehogging required to face away from the edge, but now because of HUGGING, that requirement is gone.

I'll use a PERSONAL example to prove my point now:

1. My friend has trouble edgehogging (b/c he cannot wavedash, and he doesn't want to compromise his ability to chop (he's a Sheik Player))
2. With hugging, edgehogging will be much easier for my friend (he and I both believe this)

You might argue "but now you can edgehog easier too!". But before he couldn't edgehog at all!!!

Don't you see? He went from 0 to able, and I went from able to more able. Who benefited more? HE DID.

Since hugging makes edgehogging easier, thus shrinking the gap

I think its safe to say that ANY technique that is easier than it once was will shrink the gap.

-----------------------------

Part 3: online

"If anything, it's websites like these that "shrink the gap" between good and bad players."

Um... doesn't that prove my point? Online play will increase the likelihood of each smash player coming here. Once they're here, the gap will shrink, as you admit yourself.

-----------------------------

To reiterate:

1. The impact of new techniques on the metagame cannot be determined as of yet **gap unaffected**

2. Techniques becoming easier = better for n00b than competitive players
**gap shrinks**

3. Online play increases the likelihood of n00bs getting exposed to the truth
**gap shrinks**

Online play WILL shrink the gap. Some techniques (such as edgehogging) will LIKELY be easier, so the gap will LIKELY shrink more. Since we don't really know anything about techniques though, we can't really conclude anything for now.

Though surely you can understand my belief that the gap will shrink.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I heard that you can't fastfall in the middle of an aerial, and I heard that fastfalls fall significantly fast (according to gimpyfish thread). This means that L-cancel will be much harder in my opinion. Have you ever tried doing a fast fall and then an aerial in melee? It is really difficult. The only moves that I could pull off was the neutral air. Being able to fast fall whenever in the middle of an aerial plus pressing L when you land is VERY easy IMO.

This is going to make SHFFls really difficult to do or not practical to do IMO. I am just speculating as I was not at E for all, but if this is true, then it is definitely more difficult.

Not if you use the c-stick for aerials. That way, you could do any aerial you wan't (except the nair, which you said you could do anyway.) It won't make L-canceling more dificult. It actually makes it easier because you don't have to adjust for hit lag or shield stun (which apparently there's more of in this game).


Heck, I'll even be able to use the c-stick for tilts now, so that's just going to make things even better because I'll have even more options now.

BTW there's a rumor going around that Sonic can jump out of his dair to cancel it. Is that true? That could have some amazing edgeguarding applications.

Prepare for a wall of text AKA WALL OF PAIN.

Some melee moves can have seemingly infinite applications, while others are extremely straightforward (ie: shine vs. Ness' neutral B)

Since we do not know the applicability of any new move, we cannot conclude that our superior ability to apply techniques will WIDEN the gap. For all we know the 1000 new techniques are all as simplistic as Ness' neutral B (I doubt this but do you see my point?)

Yes I see your point, but I'm afraid I don't think you see his point. We already know of quite a few moves that could have many applications. Sonic can attack out of his up B, Mario can use his flood out of his shield, Pit can cancel his up B (we're not sure how yet, but it's been done), Pit can curve his arrows and aim them anywhere he wants, Ike has super armor frames on some of his moves (but he still sucks), Link's boomerang got buffed, ect.
And this is all from 4 days of playing a demo.

part 1: new techs

"More versatility usually adds more depth, which is ultimately better exploited by the better players."

You cannot assume MORE VERSATILITY. More moves does not necessarily mean more versatility! Here are two adv.-techs in Melee

Actually, it really does. More moves means more options available. More options available=more versatility. Now the extent of this increased versatility is still debatable, but it's still there.

jump-cancel grab
wavedash

Are they both useful? Of course.
Which one adds more depth to the game? Wavedashing.
Which one is harder to perform? wavedashing (I assume this is the case for most)

But you have to admit that jump-canceled grabs did add a few more options and thus added more versatility.

Since we don't fully understand the new Brawl techs (nor do we know if which will be in the final build) we don't know which will be the equivalents of jump-canceling, and which will be the wavedashing equivalents.

It doesn't really matter, because each of them will add more options to the game. How much they add is still to be determined.

Let me propose a hypothetical situation. What if NO new techniques were added, the engine was the same, and Brawl was simply Melee w/o wavedashing and w/o L-canceling.

Would the gap shrink? of course.

You got me there. But if that where the case I think pivoting may have gotten more development to fill the gap of wavedashing. The gap would still shrink, but not by as much as people would think.

Naturally this is not the case. But think of this: if losing such techs shrink the gap, would getting news gaurantee the widening of it? WE DON'T KNOW! Because

WE DON'T KNOW HOW THESE NEW TECHNIQUES, IN A NEW PHYSICS ENGINE, COMPARE TO THE LOST TECHNIQUES IN THE MELEE ENGINE

If the new techniques add more options to the player that learns them and are not automaticlly executed, then yes they would widen the gap. That's because the very definition of advanced techniques implies that it will give the player that uses them an advantage, however slight that advantage may be.

Please understand. I'm not saying the gap cannot widen. I'm saying that its IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL how the new techniques will impact the metagame. If you can prove me wrong on that statement, go right ahead and try (remember that E for All evidence is meaningless considering the fact that its a demo, and could easily be overhauled).

That's just like saying that taking out wavedashing will not take away depth from the game.
Adding techniques can only add depth to the game, not take any away. What will determine whether or not the gap will widen, is whether or not the techniques are able to overcome the depth taken away by removing wavedashing.

part 2: ease of use

It SEEMS (though not confirmed) that adv. techniques are generally easier or just as difficult to perform as in Melee. My best example is EDGEHOGGING.

Previously edgehogging required to face away from the edge, but now because of HUGGING, that requirement is gone.

I'll use a PERSONAL example to prove my point now:

1. My friend has trouble edgehogging (b/c he cannot wavedash, and he doesn't want to compromise his ability to chop (he's a Sheik Player))
2. With hugging, edgehogging will be much easier for my friend (he and I both believe this)

You might argue "but now you can edgehog easier too!". But before he couldn't edgehog at all!!!

Don't you see? He went from 0 to able, and I went from able to more able. Who benefited more? HE DID.

Since hugging makes edgehogging easier, thus shrinking the gap

I think its safe to say that ANY technique that is easier than it once was will shrink the gap.

But at the same time, it still adds depth to the game (in comparison to if the game didn't have it, not in comparison to melee). It still adds more options for edgeguarding and still makes the gap wider than it would be if hugging weren't in at all.

Part 3: online

"If anything, it's websites like these that "shrink the gap" between good and bad players."

Um... doesn't that prove my point? Online play will increase the likelihood of each smash player coming here. Once they're here, the gap will shrink, as you admit yourself.

Well, actually that isn't "shrinking the gap," it's increasing the likelyhood of a casual player to become a competative player. It will make more people actually want to get better at the game, but people who really don't care (the people we're differentiating from) still won't look for sites like this. It allows the people that actually want to enter the competative scene have a chance to do so, while not specifically pressing random n00bs to try to get better.

To reiterate:

1. The impact of new techniques on the metagame cannot be determined as of yet **gap unaffected**

The amount of impact they will have can't be determined. They will most certainly have some kind of impact.

2. Techniques becoming easier = better for n00b than competitive players
**gap shrinks**

Techniques being included at all=better for people that would use them. **gap widens**

3. Online play increases the likelihood of n00bs getting exposed to the truth
**gap shrinks**

Online play increases the likelihood of n00bs getting exposed to the truth=more people join the competative community. **more people transfer to this side of the gap.

Online play WILL shrink the gap. Some techniques (such as edgehogging) will LIKELY be easier, so the gap will LIKELY shrink more. Since we don't really know anything about techniques though, we can't really conclude anything for now.

Though surely you can understand my belief that the gap will shrink.

Online play will not *shrink the gap.* It will simply move more people to this side of that gap. While removing techniques would shrink the gap, putting in new techniques widens the gap.

For example: Wavedashing was taken out. That shrunk the gap. Edgehogging became just as easy for n00bs as it was for pros.
Hugging was added, that widens the gap, but not nearly as much as taking wavedashing out has shrunk it. Edgehogging became easier for everyone, but I still think pros will get more out of this than n00bs. Note that this is in respect to how the game would be if it had neither technique.

So surely you can understand my belief that the gap will not shrink.

 

[joeysmash]

This was a lot of fun to read. You make a lot of valid points.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

whyt do all these topics seem like desperate people trying to rationalize brawl being worse than melee in terms of depth?

Because you are made of tourney***gotry and lose, and unlike most of the other arguers who say that the depth is going away, you don't even listen to logic and downtalk everybody. Get out.

 

[Hippochinfat]

Brawls Combat System Will Be Away Deeper Then Melee's. We Love Wavedashing Big Woop But We Get Tons And Tons Of New Techs. People Seem Are Acting Like We Won't Discover New Techs In Brawl.

 

[Hippochinfat]

AND WE ALL KNOW THE OVERALL GAME WILL BE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY DEEPER WITH ALL THESE NEW THINGS LIKE SUBSPACE AND STAGE BUILDER. ggj

 

[TheMastermind]

I couldn't agree more, nice topic!
You missed a very major point though.

Wavedashing was taken out and replaced by something alot better.
Now you can air dodge multiple times and do an attack or jump out of an air dodge.
This is the greatest thing they've done for the game so far!

It opens up new approach types, and new mind games. Air combat has been considerably improved.
With the lack of wavedashing, dance dashing will become more important.

I would rather have the new air dodge system over wavedashing any day.
within a few months of playing brawl the pros will feel the same way.
Sakuri replaced wavedashing for something better.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Dash Dancing is still in.

Though I think being able to attack after airdodging will be abused a lot. It basically means that you can just airdodge whenever you feel like it with no consequences.

 

[Eaode]

Dash Dancing is still in.

Though I think being able to attack after airdodging will be abused a lot. It basically means that you can just airdodge whenever you feel like it with no consequences.

You can attack ater a Roll. Rolls are still punishable.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You can attack ater a Roll. Rolls are still punishable.

True, but with air dodging you'll be invincible until your attack starts. All you need to do is use a quick attack. It's like buffering a spot dodge and then shining. Sure it's punishable, but it's also pretty annoying.

 

[Israfel]

There's a large amount of lag time between your airdodge and being able to do anything, so no, your idea isn't valid.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Oh.

Didn't know that. I just assumed that when the said you can attack after your airdodge that it meant right after your airdodge.

Nevermind then.

 

[rsc_390]

Not if you use the c-stick for aerials. That way, you could do any aerial you wan't (except the nair, which you said you could do anyway.) It won't make L-canceling more dificult. It actually makes it easier because you don't have to adjust for hit lag or shield stun (which apparently there's more of in this game).


Heck, I'll even be able to use the c-stick for tilts now, so that's just going to make things even better because I'll have even more options now.

BTW there's a rumor going around that Sonic can jump out of his dair to cancel it. Is that true? That could have some amazing edgeguarding applications.

Prepare for a wall of text AKA WALL OF PAIN.




Yes I see your point, but I'm afraid I don't think you see his point. We already know of quite a few moves that could have many applications. Sonic can attack out of his up B, Mario can use his flood out of his shield, Pit can cancel his up B (we're not sure how yet, but it's been done), Pit can curve his arrows and aim them anywhere he wants, Ike has super armor frames on some of his moves (but he still sucks), Link's boomerang got buffed, ect.
And this is all from 4 days of playing a demo.



Actually, it really does. More moves means more options available. More options available=more versatility. Now the extent of this increased versatility is still debatable, but it's still there.

But you have to admit that jump-canceled grabs did add a few more options and thus added more versatility.

It doesn't really matter, because each of them will add more options to the game. How much they add is still to be determined.

You got me there. But if that where the case I think pivoting may have gotten more development to fill the gap of wavedashing. The gap would still shrink, but not by as much as people would think.



If the new techniques add more options to the player that learns them and are not automaticlly executed, then yes they would widen the gap. That's because the very definition of advanced techniques implies that it will give the player that uses them an advantage, however slight that advantage may be.



That's just like saying that taking out wavedashing will not take away depth from the game.
Adding techniques can only add depth to the game, not take any away. What will determine whether or not the gap will widen, is whether or not the techniques are able to overcome the depth taken away by removing wavedashing.




But at the same time, it still adds depth to the game (in comparison to if the game didn't have it, not in comparison to melee). It still adds more options for edgeguarding and still makes the gap wider than it would be if hugging weren't in at all.



Well, actually that isn't "shrinking the gap," it's increasing the likelyhood of a casual player to become a competative player. It will make more people actually want to get better at the game, but people who really don't care (the people we're differentiating from) still won't look for sites like this. It allows the people that actually want to enter the competative scene have a chance to do so, while not specifically pressing random n00bs to try to get better.



The amount of impact they will have can't be determined. They will most certainly have some kind of impact.



Techniques being included at all=better for people that would us"e them. **gap widens**



Online play increases the likelihood of n00bs getting exposed to the truth=more people join the competative community. **more people transfer to this side of the gap.



Online play will not *shrink the gap.* It will simply move more people to this side of that gap. While removing techniques would shrink the gap, putting in new techniques widens the gap.

For example: Wavedashing was taken out. That shrunk the gap. Edgehogging became just as easy for n00bs as it was for pros.
Hugging was added, that widens the gap, but not nearly as much as taking wavedashing out has shrunk it. Edgehogging became easier for everyone, but I still think pros will get more out of this than n00bs. Note that this is in respect to how the game would be if it had neither technique.

So surely you can understand my belief that the gap will not shrink.

Hm.

"What will determine whether or not the gap will widen, is whether or not the techniques are able to overcome the depth taken away by removing wavedashing."

Most of what you said prior to this line was kind of cancelled out, because this line of yours WAS MY WHOLE POINT. We don't KNOW "whether or not the techniques are able to overcome the depth taken away by removing wavedashing" (not to mention the other techniques taken away, of which there are many).

"We already know of quite a few moves that could have many applications."

It WAS just a demo, but assuming they remain in the main game I can see your point here. However as exciting as it is to think up new applications, without a game I still think its hard to say for sure if those new ones will "over come the depth taken away by removing" the other techniques.

-----------------------------------

"Online play increases the likelihood of n00bs getting exposed to the truth=more people join the competative community. **more people transfer to this side of the gap."

Yes, more people will transfer to this side of the gap for sure. But the very nature of the gap will change as well.

For example, all it'll take is an EASY, CONSPICUOUS adv. tech to change the whole nature of the gap. If any such techniques exist, knowing them WILL NOT BRING YOU to the competitive side of the gap, because such a technique will be learned by the MAJORITY of smashers (b/c of online).

But i'll get into this later, i have to go for now

 

[TheMastermind]

Dash Dancing is still in.

Though I think being able to attack after airdodging will be abused a lot. It basically means that you can just airdodge whenever you feel like it with no consequences.

Theres not much lag time after an airdodge thats why you can airdodge many times after jumping.

Think about this, as soon as you see someone airdodgeing towards you, you can immediately
short hop and airdodge yourself you will be invincible when they go to hit you.
then you can just hit them. That is enless they see what your doing and use their 2nd jump
out of their airdodge.

So much more complex and better than wavedashing.