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Brawl Flaws and a small bit of ranting

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Thingy Person

Smash Journeyman
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Belgium
Well, I suppose a more suitable word would be "exploit", if only for the fact that they are not mentioned or encouraged anywhere in the game or by the developers.
But enough about that, let's talk about my dress.
 

PKSkyler

Smash Lord
Joined
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i think that since all the techs from melee are basically gone, Brawl is pretty much a whole new game so thats why when everyone got brawl, it didnt matter who you were, you were all pretty much equal.(of course, I had major advantage overmy brothers cause ive been playin smash since smash 64 xD) In Melee i think that a lot of characters were the same but in Brawl everyone is pretty different to some degree so thats why it is interesting every match(unless you have to play the same character like my brother will never NOT be Lucario ;-_-)

As for combos, Ive already invented a few myself with Ike, or at least found some on this site (Ike`s mid-airs are frickin` dangerous, and combo well.)

finally, I belive you have to play Brawl a lot more strategically, and master the techs they still have (short hop fast falls work well with a lot of people`s aerials) Mindgames are also a lot more important. Melee was actually the more flawed game IMO (great game nontheless) but it really depends on a persons preference
 

Dylan_Tnga

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They are not all glitches. Upb and upsmash out of sheild are apparently not glitches as told by Sakurai. Short hop was intentional as was fast fall lcancel. Ledge hopping was, too. Dash dancing was there because Sakurai wanted you to turn around quickly at the start of the dash for whatever reason so that is not a glitch. Wavedashing was found in development, but kept in and was anyways purposefully programmed so if you airdodged you slid. DJCing was no doubt intentional we just double jumped and attacked fast to make it more useful. So what is left, like FCing, which honestly I don't know why it does what it does, and jump canceled blank. Even though it doesn't matter if they are glitches are not, it is just weird that people sometimes call intentional things and things not intended but made from intentional mechanics "glitches."
Is captain falcon a glitch?

I mean he's just so overpowered in the ''cooler than everyone else'' department.

Glitch abus0rs!!1one!

As for combos, Ive already invented a few myself with Ike
No you didn't because I'm 100% sure they can be DI'd out of easily since brawl has made DI too easy, so any advanced player can escape like.. what? 98% of the combos out there?
 

NES n00b

Smash Master
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Location
Oxford, Mississippi. . . . permanent n00b
Is captain falcon a glitch?

I mean he's just so overpowered in the ''cooler than everyone else'' department.

Glitch abus0rs!!1one!
He is a glitch. No one was supposed to be so manly in Smash, but somehow through a couple of moonwalking glitches, unintended combos, and strange hitboxes. He became too good for other people in the game at least in the manly and awesome department.


No you didn't because I'm 100% sure they can be DI'd out of easily since brawl has made DI too easy, so any advanced player can escape like.. what? 98% of the combos out there?

I can combo.....it is called my opponent DIs towards me and/or doesn't airdodge when I do a followup. Or those awesome uptilt combos at low percents or staled. Awesome.
 

Dylan_Tnga

Smash Master
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I can combo.....it is called my opponent DIs towards me and/or doesn't airdodge when I do a followup. Or those awesome uptilt combos at low percents or staled. Awesome.
Wow, ur g0nna win all teh tourneys.

Cheap.

Hey dont knock the utilt! Classic 64 smash jigglypuff combo

Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,
Utilt,

Rest

zero two deth :chuckle:
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
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In Melee i think that a lot of characters were the same but in Brawl everyone is pretty different to some degree so thats why it is interesting every match(unless you have to play the same character like my brother will never NOT be Lucario ;-_-)
What? What is this suppose to mean?
 

Taymond

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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Well, I suppose a more suitable word would be "exploit", if only for the fact that they are not mentioned or encouraged anywhere in the game or by the developers.
But enough about that, let's talk about my dress.
Don't be ignorant. Firstly, if you expect game developers to detail every single nuance of the game engine they've created in the manual, you're.. silly. They tell you the basics of how the physics engine will work, and you're left to see what combining those basics will result for you.

Secondly, the only over-popularized, highly-used Melee tech that can legitimately called an exploit is wavedashing, and it is indeed just that--an exploit. Do not mangle the definition of the word glitch because it has a useful stigma attached to it that you want to use.

Thirdly, it's a fallacy to assume that it didn't take skill to use Melee advanced techs. It's a fallacy to assume Melee players aren't any good without those advanced techs in Brawl. It's a fallacy to assume that players who used Melee advanced techs were automatically going to beat players who didn't.

Leave your xenophobic opinions at home. You can say the words glitch and cheap as many times as you want but it doesn't make them the slightest bit accurate.


Edit: Oh, and what Tyr_03 said: Anyone who thinks Brawl is MORE about spacing than Melee.. was not familiar enough with Melee. How does the lack of a useful dash dance give Brawl greater control over spacing?
 

EternalCrusade

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Nobody intelligent is denying that there are obvious divisions between good and bad players. Of course good players are still going to beat bad players. And they do.

The problem is that slightly better players don't necessarily always beat slightly worse players. The absence of clear divisions that gets talked about is in reference to divisions within relative skill levels. Amongst "bad" players, the better bad players don't always beat the worse bad players, and amongst "good" players, the better good players don't beat the worse good players with the same consistency as Melee.
I see what you're saying, but I've said before, as time goes on, the gaps between the differences in skills between players will become larger and more obvious.

And if we have two great players, but one is slightly worse, how do we determine which is slightly worse? We have them play each other, of course, and the loser is the slightly worse one.

Great Melee players are still great Brawl players, because no matter how much anyone wants to pretend, the games are very similar. The games are comparable. Melee is the most similar game to Brawl that exists, because it's its predecessor. The thing is, in Melee, we knew say, this great player was pretty much better than this great player. If you were an early aspiring competitive player, you could expect to get 4 stocked by a good Pro. In Brawl, it's not so clear which one is strictly better. And as an aspiring competitive player in Brawl, you can potentially cause a lot more concern to a Pro player. Playing defensively, you can knock off a stock or two by the time you're beat, certainly.

When you got creamed in Melee, it was great. Losing was perfectly satisfying because it showed you "Wow, i need to work on this or that" very clearly. You saw where you got flat-out outplayed by someone who is downright better than you. Awesome. In Brawl, it's.. "Yeah, you're much better than me, but I still took you down to 1 stock, despite all my problem areas." It doesn't show you where to improve, and in fact, improving in those areas won't even help as much, because your opponent, the Pro, worked hard in those areas and guess what? He still lost 2 stock to you.
This is a hypothetical match-up where someone who is great beats someone who is much worse, but with only one stock left? I thought we already established that Pros can still beat noobs, as in your only concern was about players with close enough skill, which I have already addressed.

And in Melee, I never ONCE saw someone who got flat-out creamed by someone at a tournament, and was like "Wow, awesome! This is great!" It DID show you where you need to impove, though, but it's the same in Brawl. There's always something you need to improve; I learn things all the time even when I win, with all the different character match-ups and things you can pull off.

If there ever accually is someone who really got creamed by a player of much higher skill, then I am sure that there are things he can learn by just watching the replays of the match.

Nobody has said (or at least no one should have said) that a Pro is going to lose, potentially, to someone who just picked up the game. Obviously that isn't going to happen. What concerns us is that I might be able to hold my own against players much better than me. That players who are, technically, better than me, might just lose anyway, because there's not a whole lot of applicable payoff for their investment of time. You don't get as steadily better the more you play.
I stated this above, but I still don't understand how you can determine that Player A is 'technically' better than Player B even though Player B beat Player A. And while I disagree with your statement of "You don't get as steadily better the more you play", if this is true, then you need to play a lot more in order to get better. So the difference in skill between players and the time and effort it took to become that good is even greater in Brawl than in Melee.

Yeah, you know what sucks though? This is a thinking game, you say? Well, when you are good and done thinking just try to execute. You won't be able to do anything.
If you ever stop to think and THEN try execute what you just thought about, it should fail unless you're opponent is using that same strategy. In smash bro (all three, not just Brawl) you have to constantly be thinking about what to do next and how to react to what your opponent is doing. This applies to most or all head-to-head video games.
 

Taymond

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I see what you're saying, but I've said before, as time goes on, the gaps between the differences in skills between players will become larger and more obvious.

And if we have two great players, but one is slightly worse, how do we determine which is slightly worse? We have them play each other, of course, and the loser is the slightly worse one.
The point I was making was that if players are close in skill level such that in Melee, a match between these players would almost 100% of the time go to one player, but in Brawl, two players the same closeness in skill level might fluctuate much more in who wins. The "better" player might only win 60% of the time.

This is a hypothetical match-up where someone who is great beats someone who is much worse, but with only one stock left? I thought we already established that Pros can still beat noobs, as in your only concern was about players with close enough skill, which I have already addressed.
No, this was supposed to be relatively close players, as well, just not quite as close as the preceding example. The more I look at how I structured my post.. the less structure it appears to have, lol. I was a little all over the place with my thoughts, sorry.

And in Melee, I never ONCE saw someone who got flat-out creamed by someone at a tournament, and was like "Wow, awesome! This is great!" It DID show you where you need to impove, though, but it's the same in Brawl. There's always something you need to improve; I learn things all the time even when I win, with all the different character match-ups and things you can pull off.

If there ever accually is someone who really got creamed by a player of much higher skill, then I am sure that there are things he can learn by just watching the replays of the match.
This, also, is probably not a very common situation either, you're right. This was mostly a situation from personal experience from my very first tournament matches, in the later rounds when I outlived the other casuals and got into facing definitively "good" players. In normal situations, you're right, the level of excitement I indicated is far from accurate. Silly hyperbole, definitely not accurate, apologies again.

I stated this above, but I still don't understand how you can determine that Player A is 'technically' better than Player B even though Player B beat Player A. And while I disagree with your statement of "You don't get as steadily better the more you play", if this is true, then you need to play a lot more in order to get better. So the difference in skill between players and the time and effort it took to become that good is even greater in Brawl than in Melee.
I'm not really comparing the amounts of these returns, I'm saying Brawl doesn't have a steady return, period. Your statement would be true if Brawl just had a smaller, steady return. I don't believe it does. I believe the return gets less and less the more you improve, reaching relative "skill caps" much faster than you would in Melee.


Just as a final note, since it's really the only important point I have to make, I don't think you can fairly claim that these skill gaps will invariably increase over time. We don't know that, we can't rely on that generalization that doesn't necessarily need to be true. The Brawl/Melee launch situations are very different, as has been argued time and time again. the progression of Brawl is going to be very different from Melee's. And while I usually argue that despite what anyone says, the games are very comparable, I think the general progression of the metagame is the one aspect that will be very definitively different between the two.

"Melee took time to develop, so will Brawl," or "How long did it take to fully discover everything in Melee, chill out!" are just pacifying statements. The possibility of their truth doesn't prove that truth. There's no reliable reason to believe those statements, there's no reliable way to back them up. They're just brush off statements, "hush now, the adults are talking," and do nothing to actually resolve concern or address issues.
 

Mewter

Smash Master
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The next person who starts another thread like this should have their account deleted.
Um... yes. However, that is a bit extreme, maybe "banned for like, two years" would be better. And also they could make it so that you can't create more than one account on the same e-mail address, unless they've already done it. (I haven't tried):)

Edit:

Ok, people, I think we should leave this thread alone now... there's too much flaming. Honestly, do you want the smash community divided in half? Why don't we come back to this thread i about... 6 months and see what we think. I think we should just get used to Brawl as it is. Arguing won't change anything.
 

Mewter

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Again, sorry for the triple post, my computer acted up and said That it couldn't find the page whrn actually it had resent the data. Anybody know how to delete messages?
 

Mewter

Smash Master
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To: coreygames

uhhh... yeah I do! I can't tell if that was sarcasm or not, but it sure sounded like it. You don't think I mean what I say?!? If you think that I would lie about something like, I pity you...:laugh:

If not, then you're on the right track my friend.:)
 

Corigames

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Well, since you seem confused, I'll give you a hint.

YES I WAS BEING SARCASTIC. I ****ING HATE BRAWL AND EVERYTHING IT ENTAILS. I WISH THE GAME HAD NEVER COME OUT AND WE HAD DUKE NUKEM' FOREVER INSTEAD. AT LEAST THIS WAY I COULD STILL GO TO A MELEE TOURNAMENT OR TWO OR GO TO SMASH BOARDS WITHOUT THERE BEING 5000 NEW JACK ***** THINKING THEY ARE THE HOTTEST THING SINCE SLICED ****!
 

Mewter

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Well, since you seem confused, I'll give you a hint.

YES I WAS BEING SARCASTIC. I ****ING HATE BRAWL AND EVERYTHING IT ENTAILS. I WISH THE GAME HAD NEVER COME OUT AND WE HAD DUKE NUKEM' FOREVER INSTEAD. AT LEAST THIS WAY I COULD STILL GO TO A MELEE TOURNAMENT OR TWO OR GO TO SMASH BOARDS WITHOUT THERE BEING 5000 NEW JACK ***** THINKING THEY ARE THE HOTTEST THING SINCE SLICED ****!
Yeah, serously, calm down. I just happen to be a veteran and have played Smash bros since the very first game came out. Either calm down, or take a hike.

And plus, I hapen to like sliced toast, thank you very much:laugh:
Edit:
AND BEFORE YOU SAY ANYTHING MORE, I SUGGEST YOU THINK ABOUT IT FIRST, PLEASE!

Thank you:)
 

EternalCrusade

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The point I was making was that if players are close in skill level such that in Melee, a match between these players would almost 100% of the time go to one player, but in Brawl, two players the same closeness in skill level might fluctuate much more in who wins. The "better" player might only win 60% of the time.
I touched on this earlier, but the thing is, if we have two players of close skill, how is it that we determine which is accually better? We have them play each other, of course. The winning player is the one who's better. So, keeping that in mind, we could have situation 1 where two players are extremely close in skill. In Melee, for example, you could have Ken and PC_Chris and PC might win 60% of the time, but that means he is the better player and that's why competitive matches are always 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 5, etc. We can also have situation 2, where both players are close in skill but one player is a bit more obviously better than the other. So when these two play each other, the better player will win much more often than in situation 1. Situation 1 and 2 exist both in Melee and Brawl, and I've seen it first hand.

I'm not really comparing the amounts of these returns, I'm saying Brawl doesn't have a steady return, period. Your statement would be true if Brawl just had a smaller, steady return. I don't believe it does. I believe the return gets less and less the more you improve, reaching relative "skill caps" much faster than you would in Melee.
As I stated in my previous post, I didn't believe in what you said anyway, I was only responding as if it were true, which again, I don't believe it is. I believe in smash bro (all three, not just Brawl) you improve with each and every game played, and each and every stock lost. I don't understand what you mean by 'relative skill caps' however, but the more you improve, the harder it is to get even better; this applies to every single competitive game ever created. But there's always room for improvement and you'll only continue to get better by playing.

Just as a final note, since it's really the only important point I have to make, I don't think you can fairly claim that these skill gaps will invariably increase over time. We don't know that, we can't rely on that generalization that doesn't necessarily need to be true. The Brawl/Melee launch situations are very different, as has been argued time and time again. the progression of Brawl is going to be very different from Melee's. And while I usually argue that despite what anyone says, the games are very comparable, I think the general progression of the metagame is the one aspect that will be very definitively different between the two.
Granted, but then you can't fairly claim that the skill gaps won't increase over time. However, it is proven fact that with all competitive games ever created thus far, it takes time to improve your skills. No matter how you look at it, that's what it boils down to; you need to dedicate your TIME into improving your game. So, as time passes, certain players will play more and practice more and get better and better, leaving other players behind, while those players leave other players behind, and those players leave others behind, and so on and so forth. Now, I'm not saying that Player A will automatically beat Player B solely because Player A has clocked in 400 hours of Vs Mode Matches while Player B has clocked in only 350 hours, but the amount of time you play the game is definently a large factor in your personal skill. That's why complete beginners will never beat a Pro, because they haven't played at all, for any amount of time.

And I agree that Brawl and Melee are very comparable and can easily be compared to Smash 64 as well. All three of the metagames for their respective games will be different, no doubt, but I predict that they will also all be very refined and have a lot of potential.

awesome point, its a competitive game..should the better players go after melee and the lesser players stick to brawl...being serious about a game is about dedicating yourself and mastering many aspects to cover a game not just shielding and rolling...
I just found this lovely quote whilst browsing through the first page of this thread. It seems rather insulting to say that the lesser players should stick to brawl, even though you didn't SAY it, you ASKED it. But this brings up the question, "Does playing Melee, rather than Brawl, make me a more competitive person?" This can also apply the other way by replacing 'Melee' with 'Brawl' and vice versa. And the answer, in my personal and most humble opinion, is a flat "no", because at this point, deciding to play Melee over Brawl is due to a personal preference. I quit playing Melee (and pretty much every other game...) to play Brawl competitively, only because I like Brawl more. You need to have a love for the game if you want to play at a serious level.

And refering to the final sentece of this quote, you are right by saying that to play at a high level of skill, you need to master many aspects of the game. While in Melee, this meant mastering wavedashing and l-canceling, in Brawl it doesn't and that's not a bad thing.

NOTE: see NOTE in my previous post, it applies here too...

Well, since you seem confused, I'll give you a hint.

YES I WAS BEING SARCASTIC. I ****ING HATE BRAWL AND EVERYTHING IT ENTAILS. I WISH THE GAME HAD NEVER COME OUT AND WE HAD DUKE NUKEM' FOREVER INSTEAD. AT LEAST THIS WAY I COULD STILL GO TO A MELEE TOURNAMENT OR TWO OR GO TO SMASH BOARDS WITHOUT THERE BEING 5000 NEW JACK ***** THINKING THEY ARE THE HOTTEST THING SINCE SLICED ****!
Yeah, you sure showed these guys who the jack ***** are. Good job.
 

Mewter

Smash Master
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3,609
Brawl Flaws and a small bit of ranting


Go Die.
Yeah, a small bit of ranting, not death threats.:laugh:

here's what I have to say:
Shut up and be quiet. No one wants to hear the words "Go die", and plus, you didn't even say what you wanted me to die for. I never said that's it's not ok to rant in this thread. Get your facts straight....
Also, I am aware that this thread is open to opinions. Next time you say that kind of stuff, no one will listen.

Anyways:
Brawl has the general stuff that melee had. Good players are still good. Bad Players... are still bad. There are certain ways to play Melee, and certain ways to play Brawl. Who cares how blurred the line has become, they both have different styles and tastes.

And Eternal Crusade, are you backing that guy up? Because what he said is contradictory to what you have said. Just wondering if YOU were being sarcastic too. Wow, everyone is sarcastic now.

Edit:
There IS a complaint thread you know, here's the link:http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145377&page=43
You can complain about me there. I don't care. I'm leaving this thread alone now. See ya.
 

EternalCrusade

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Messages
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And Eternal Crusade, are you backing that guy up? Because what he said is contradictory to what you have said. Just wondering if YOU were being sarcastic too. Wow, everyone is sarcastic now.

Edit:
There IS a complaint thread you know, here's the link:http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145377&page=43
You can complain about me there. I don't care. I'm leaving this thread alone now. See ya.
If you're talking about Coreygames, then yea, I was definently being sarcastic. He was yelling and pissing and whining like a two year old, calling everyone a jack ***, so it's kind of ironic. I think Coreygames hardly ever, if ever at all, accually contributes to these boards. It seems like most of the 2,000+ posts of his are just whining or complaining or being sarcastic.

And I dont remember you saying anything in this thread that is deserving of being complained about.
 
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