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Brawl CPUs Learn?

XienZo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
The replay doesn't save inputs from the cpu (evidenced from trip code on vs trip code off stuff)
Thats the flaw I'm pointing out. We have observed CPU not using replay data. However, you cannot use that as proof that they CANNOT EVER use replay data.

For example, the replay could save only the strings of "learned" behavior. Since there were little to no "learned" behavior in the trip code video, you cannot say that replays do not save inputs of "learned" behavior.
 

raptyrX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
32
Location
Surrey BC, Canada
K. Learning is one of those things that only humans can do well, and its even difficult for a regular human to learn to play brawl really well. A CPU cannot learn to play brawl. There are code snippets for a variety of situations however. Such as: if X happens, do Y. What I think you guys are referring to is adaptability. If I spam tornado 3 times, there is probably a little code snippet that says, "since he did it 3 times, hes probably gonna try it again, so hes going to do 'tornado', now do 'dodge'" - (except its a lot more complicated!!!).

Now on top of this, every player plays differently, so, even if there was information saved, on how to adapt to a certain player... flexibility would be required to re-adapt to a new player, rendering such saved adaptability information fairly useless. Its much more efficient to have a CPU that is focused on making the best decision at any given time independent of who' playing (but still dependent on what character is being used obviously), instead of a technique of responding to and being punished by user actions first; that's why I'm 100% certain that the CPU does not save information. Any adaptation/learning is reserved for individual matches, and that little information is probably being erased every time the CPU dies, because if the CPU dies, then its adaptations were probably not working...
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
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K. Learning is one of those things that only humans can do well, and its even difficult for a regular human to learn to play brawl really well. A CPU cannot learn to play brawl. There are code snippets for a variety of situations however. Such as: if X happens, do Y. What I think you guys are referring to is adaptability. If I spam tornado 3 times, there is probably a little code snippet that says, "since he did it 3 times, hes probably gonna try it again, so hes going to do 'tornado', now do 'dodge'" - (except its a lot more complicated!!!).

Now on top of this, every player plays differently, so, even if there was information saved, on how to adapt to a certain player... flexibility would be required to re-adapt to a new player, rendering such saved adaptability information fairly useless. Its much more efficient to have a CPU that is focused on making the best decision at any given time independent of who' playing (but still dependent on what character is being used obviously), instead of a technique of responding to and being punished by user actions first; that's why I'm 100% certain that the CPU does not save information. Any adaptation/learning is reserved for individual matches, and that little information is probably being erased every time the CPU dies, because if the CPU dies, then its adaptations were probably not working...
Actually, I was thinking about it working another way. Brawl has a very detailed system in handling who's responsible for what KOs (it even records people stuck under falling blocks as your KOs), so I think it might keep a count of the attacks that deal the most KOs. The CPU might then learn it. This could also works with moves that deal the most damage, and other useful stuff.

On the other hand, it could be that every time a KO is made, the Wii copies down the actions immediatly before and after the KO. This would explain how crouch-taunting is recorded; every time you KO, you crouch-taunt, so the CPU sees crouch taunting to have a 100% success rate at KOing, so it copies it.
 

Pr0phetic

Dodge the bullets!
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Syracuse, NY
Wasn't there a huge thread on this already? It's been shown that CPU's take some behavior, but they don't learn at a great extent.
 

PMKNG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
534
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Miami, Florida
NNID
GalickGon
Yea I've seen certain things happen vs cpus as well, but I never considered it "learning" but more copying.

Falcos chain grab, 3 of dedede's chaingrabs, and just recently I saw something happen with ice climbers.
I had knocked nana off the stage, and popo went down to try to save her, but failed to do the up b. Which I have never seen IC cpu do that before my cousin tried to main IC and learned the chain grab. He would always go down and save nana in the same way. So I don't think they "learn" but that they copy things we do, cause I feel as though the lvl 9 computers have progressed along with me. But thats just my 2 cents from personal experience.
 

pure_awesome

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
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Montreal, Canada
I'm surprised this thread is still going on. If CPUs actually learned, shouldn't we have some kind of solid evidence by now? A CPU using DACUS? Glide Tossing? Etc? I play Falco almost exclusively now and have a ton of replays saved so that I can critique myself. And I haven't seen CPU Falco SHDL, SHL, IAP, or anything that could be considered a small string of commands, ever.

The CPUs in my game dash-danced the first day I got it, so they sure didn't learn it from me. Their AI is just much less rigid than it was in Melee. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that given the number of people playing Brawl each day, every once in a while the CPUs will wig out and do something wierd.
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
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Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
I'm surprised this thread is still going on. If CPUs actually learned, shouldn't we have some kind of solid evidence by now? A CPU using DACUS? Glide Tossing? Etc? I play Falco almost exclusively now and have a ton of replays saved so that I can critique myself. And I haven't seen CPU Falco SHDL, SHL, IAP, or anything that could be considered a small string of commands, ever.

The CPUs in my game dash-danced the first day I got it, so they sure didn't learn it from me. Their AI is just much less rigid than it was in Melee. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that given the number of people playing Brawl each day, every once in a while the CPUs will wig out and do something wierd.
We have seen accounts of CPUs(snakes) awkwardly using dash attack, then Usmash, and others like Peach constantly roll before they throw turnips; just because CPUs may "learn" sequences doesn't mean it'll also have the exact same timing, which often messes up the AT. Also, CPUs seem to only recognize "Killing" sequences, as those are directly related to a KO. I doubt they would be able to tell if other techniques, particularily one involving short hops, were useful if they don't KO very often.

Dash dancing and crouch taunting seem to some of the few techniques that were already "known" by CPUs.

Also, 5-6 Falcon Punches is not only "wierd", but the whoever recorded it was obviously expecting it. I'm not sure if the video is posted here, but I'll get it if it isn't and you want to see. A Reverse Falcon Punch stage-spike attempt identical to ones that the humans player used also doesn't seem to be "coincidence".
 

fenyx4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
272
It be freakin' cool if CPUs in Brawl were programmed like that! However, I haven't played Brawl yet :(, so I can't really give an honest opinion of what I would perceive from viewed gameplay and actually playing.

I also heard about the rumor of how Lv.9 CPUs read button inputs and react to them accordingly. But if that were true, there'd be no point in playing [the computer] because it'd win every single time! But it be interesting if occasionally the CPU read your moves, just to amp up the difficulty level a bit for a challenge. Then, the rest of the time it would be just the CPU facing you with no button inputs read.
 

lordhelmet

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
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4,196
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Also, 5-6 Falcon Punches is not only "wierd", but the whoever recorded it was obviously expecting it. I'm not sure if the video is posted here, but I'll get it if it isn't and you want to see. A Reverse Falcon Punch stage-spike attempt identical to ones that the humans player used also doesn't seem to be "coincidence".
If you ever find that video definantly post it!

I really want to see something like that.

I'm almost positive that CPU's can't learn and "store it" they can only learn to react to repeated moves you play in a given match, and they will be defaulted by the next match.

EDIT: I found an interesting string of videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWcN4rtoJE8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Me-0_5LjLE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qcVyY5W_kQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzQKKi7YXfU&feature=related

I also found this random 10sec video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGLyiu8QcUA&feature=related
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMcEUsMd9Cw

Its by the same person with the other CPU-learn video, but I think this demonstates it better; Captain Falcon shows an obviously unusual behavior, and the guy claims he had just played through tons of CF Falcon-Punch FFAs. Also, this video was setup just to catch the behavior(Peach didn't do anything, and was waiting for something), so it must have happened before, so its not a one-time exception either.

Also, its harder to tell if the CPUs in your videos are "learning", but I think those videos just demonstrate how smart the CPUs are, but not that they neccesarily "learned" anything.
 

Aurasmash14

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Messages
1,540
if cpu's really did keep on learning shouldnt they be up to your level instead of always getting thumped?
 

Lemonwater

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
664
Perhaps they learn at a slow rate (if at all)?

I used to think they learned, and they do sometimes do very strange things, but I don't think that's enough to prove that they do. I'm almost sure it's just their inhuman reflexes and weird coding playing tricks on us.
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
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Apr 12, 2008
Messages
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if cpu's really did keep on learning shouldnt they be up to your level instead of always getting thumped?
Well, if they learned just by copying moves, they'd still never be able to catch up since they can't mindgame in the slightest.
 

☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆

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We have seen accounts of CPUs(snakes) awkwardly using dash attack, then Usmash, and others like Peach constantly roll before they throw turnips; just because CPUs may "learn" sequences doesn't mean it'll also have the exact same timing, which often messes up the AT. Also, CPUs seem to only recognize "Killing" sequences, as those are directly related to a KO. I doubt they would be able to tell if other techniques, particularily one involving short hops, were useful if they don't KO very often.
".
this wud explain why falco cpus chaingrab 2-3 times then spike or down c-stick most the time theres two cg's before an edge and then the player does a jump spike so ocassionally the cpu messes up the timeing and dsmashes. it works for falcon punches too if u did enuff falcon punches eventually it would work like how they learn crouch tuanting is 100 percent ko. it teachs the cpu that falcon punch = 100 percent success therefore falcon punch often = automatic win to the cpu
 

TheREALShadowChaos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
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Netherland
Damm this **** about CPUs learning is the dumbest **** that I have ever seen.

Please stop people, saying that your CPU learned to teabag, Falcon Punch more, or how to do your homework makes you look pretty stupid. Pretty very much super stupid. Even more stupid than a lv0 CPU.
 

☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆

Banned via Warnings
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waiting for mars to hurry up with that **** blunt
Damm this **** about CPUs learning is the dumbest **** that I have ever seen.

Please stop people, saying that your CPU learned to teabag, alcon Punch more, or how to do your homework makes you look pretty stupid. Pretty very much super stupid. Even more stupid than a lv0 CPU.
i like how u criticize us even tho there is VIDEO PROOF that they can learn
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
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Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,287
Damm this **** about CPUs learning is the dumbest **** that I have ever seen.

Please stop people, saying that your CPU learned to teabag, Falcon Punch more, or how to do your homework makes you look pretty stupid. Pretty very much super stupid. Even more stupid than a lv0 CPU.
Oh ho ho, but you forget, no one has yet to even try to disprove our theory outside of Scotu and "No. You're being stupid." Former hasn't replied and latter is baseless.
 

Genoisdabest

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
62
That is no possible, CPU's do no learn, however depending on you're fighting style it may reflect that way that they may fight agianst you, because that is exactly how they were programmed.
 

stealthgun

Smash Cadet
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Feb 16, 2009
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Behind you
I don't think that they actually learn but more like increase in difficulty higher than lvl 9 based on how many times you've beaten them. They don't actually pick up your fighting styles or habits they just evade more and stuff. Like how I use Pit and if I spam arrows at the beginning of a day most seem to hit but if I beat the CPU all day long and then try to spam arrows then he dodges every one and that kind of gets annoying.
 

t3h n00b

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It's been proven, there's an AiB article about it somewhere, I know I read it before. It's not like CPUs will start playing exactly like you, but whenever there's a match, the actions of human players often factor in with whatever the CPUs would normally do. CPU Marth for me uses Dolphin Slash OoS sometimes and CPU Falcon spams punches and knees (although way more punches than I'd use in a game lol). Other things too, I just don't remember.
 

Oshtoby

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 6, 2006
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Burholme, Philadelphia, PA, USA, North America, Ea
The CPU does not play 100% like you. The CPU cannot be that advanced, we just can't do that so far with technology. We cannot make a CPU as advanced as a human; we just don't know how the human mind deals with decision making to that extent.

I'll tell you what did happen, though. The CPUs do not just magically pick up your fighting habits from replays, but rather, they pick up what you do most often, statistically, and how well it worked out, once again statistically. I short hop like mad with my Toon Link. My CPU Toon Link now short hops like mad. As Toon Link, I shoot projectiles in a specific order. My CPU Toon Link has now picked up on shooting in that order also.

The CPU does not so much play like you as it does make a metaphorical baby between your fighting style and its original fighting style. Incompatible fighting styles will ruin a CPU, as is made evident from my Sonic's CPU (I won't go into that one). In the end, whatever you say, I will go on making my computers better, challenging people I know to defeat my CPUs, and watching them fail.
 

t3h n00b

Smash Ace
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Laurel, Maryland
I like playing my CPU Marth as Falcon because it's a tough matchup and those are my two best characters, so the level 9 Marth is really tough to beat.
 

ibd

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
4
I have never played Brawl myself, but from the vids I've seen, it seems very well possible that the computer AIs DO learn to some extent. I'm a programmer myself, and I would like to bring in some opinions.

First, the argument that AI inputs are not recorded in replays... I'm not sure. But the file size is *not* a good indicator for that. Actually, even without using any compression, recording another player's input takes up a few kB extra at most, which is nothing compared to today's harddrive sizes.
I think some people tried replays where the gameplay is changed (no tripping or whatever) from the original recorded game. I think this is a more reliable test. If all the inputs were recorded, that would mean a desync of all players would occur at some point. The players would start doing random stuff. If no input was stored, the human players would desync and the computer players would not.

However, this test still doesn't bring 100% certainty. Imagine this: Every character has 64 slots to store "learned sequences". This data contains when to apply the sequence, when not to apply it, the actual sequence, etc. Now, the replay could actually contain this information, couldn't it? When the replay file is loaded, the computer loads these behaviours. This means that no matter what stuff your *current* character has learnt, it will be overwritten by the replay so that no desync will occur. Over all, we can say that there are many ways to overcome the problem of the computer AI always having to do the exact same things in a given replay.

About the actual "learning" process. It is true that the computer players will not reach our level just from watching us play. Computers are perfect at reflexes, efficienty and precision, but they SUCK at dynamically handling a new situation and at creatively reacting to it. Also, the computer fails to understand what exact purpose a sequence has. Still, it is rather simple to make an AI that will record your best and most used sequences and that tries to use these. But, because it is uncreative in applying them, it is not able to reach our level of play.
 

Drig786

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no they cant but its not fun playing a lvl 9 CPU which reacts to your every hit :/
 

KO M

Smash Apprentice
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NJ
The fact of the matter is CPUS take our data , and will copy it... that is in a way learning.
I have to get my video up , just happend yesterday. The CPU is freakin DI'ing and SDI'ing.
 

t3h n00b

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CPUs tend to DI and tech every once in awhile. I have never, not once, wall teched, and I bair stagespiked a Yoshi after he used his second jump (not in the super armor or whatever frames, after the jump), and he wall tech jumped and survived. I remember playing a CPU Falco that would always tech roll my Toon Link's fthrow, it happened probably 4 times in a row.
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
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Apr 12, 2008
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That doesn't mean anything. The game could very easily just save what "level" of learning the CPU is at along with the replay.
I don't think they have preset levels, because its unlikely they have "glide-toss" level and "falcon punch spam" level. Its probably something more like the "custom" moves are saved onto the replay, and any other time, the "standard" CPU takes over.
 

Levitas

the moon
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Ann Arbor, MI
That doesn't mean anything. The game could very easily just save what "level" of learning the CPU is at along with the replay.
So you're proposing that there's a hidden level along with the displayed level.

That's not learning, that's setting a level.

Also note that the more complicated your explanation as to how it could work becomes, the more likely you're not correct.

Thats the flaw I'm pointing out. We have observed CPU not using replay data. However, you cannot use that as proof that they CANNOT EVER use replay data.

For example, the replay could save only the strings of "learned" behavior. Since there were little to no "learned" behavior in the trip code video, you cannot say that replays do not save inputs of "learned" behavior.
Sorry for the late reply, but if this is the case, the wii either needs to save the full set of "learned behavior" with each replay or each replay will look different on different people's wiis.

If your statment is correct, xienzo, replay files shoud get significantly larger the more you play against CPUs. If this is true, feel free to point it out, but in the meantime, my replays of me not doing any inputs for three minutes vs a level 9 link are planning to stay the same size exactly and prove you wrong as a result.
 

XienZo

Smash Lord
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Sorry for the late reply, but if this is the case, the wii either needs to save the full set of "learned behavior" with each replay or each replay will look different on different people's wiis.

If your statment is correct, xienzo, replay files shoud get significantly larger the more you play against CPUs. If this is true, feel free to point it out, but in the meantime, my replays of me not doing any inputs for three minutes vs a level 9 link are planning to stay the same size exactly and prove you wrong as a result.
Thats basically the jest of it. However, I want to point out that it would only record the "learned" behavior, and as an example, would switch off from a minute of un-recorded "standard" to a few seconds of "learned" behavior, so it would only have to save maybe 15-20 seconds, not 3 minutes, of actions. Furthermore, I believe that the chains of "learned" behavior are quite small (jump, Falcon Punch) so the overall file size difference would be rather small.

However, if you find that the file size stays EXACTLY the same regardless of any "learned" behaviors, then, my theory would be incorrect.


Also, I just realized an issue with the current "replays don't save CPU data" theory. Wouldn't that mean that if 2 seperate matches were recorded where the human player did absolutely nothing, the two replays would be exactly identical files and the CPUs should perform the exact same moves in the two orignial matches? (Well, until they trip) That means that if you were playing a CPU Ganon and you were a G&W(doing nothing) on FD, and the Ganon started with a side-B, every single time you played a CPU Ganon as a G&W(doing nothing) on FD (with the same spawn positions), the Ganon should use side-B.
 
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