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Brawl? a downgrade back to Smash 64...

Swu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
39
So I managed to get a copy of the NTSC-J Brawl today and made a copy and played it with my modded wii. Well all i can say is...fell short of what i expected

think about it as a fancy version of smash 64.
-no wave dashing
-no L canceling
-a lot slower paced than melee

if you want to know what its like i can clarify a lot of points, i havent unlocked all the chars though only a few so dont not sure about most of it.

SWU
 

Kentalish

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 8, 2007
Messages
1,427
Location
Qualicum Beach, BC
dude isnt that a good thing... in smash 64 at least there were characters people actually played melee wasnt as good as 64... i didnt even use any of those advanced techs... were going to find new ones.. we got ink drop AKA trippy and if u fast fall before u attack theres less lag
 

NESJake

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
158
When some nubs watched me play Melee at an event a while ago, they were like "is this on lightning mode"?

My point is, perhaps when we're all skilled brawl players, it will seem faster or whatever.
 

Luke Groundwalker

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
1,989
Smash 64 was a better game than Melee in terms of gameplay, so thankfully Brawl is returning to its roots.
 

Hyper Luigi

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 8, 2001
Messages
551
Location
Washington! (State)
Brawl seems to have some new advance tactics involving the mid-air dodge and I look forward to trying them out and coming up with new strategies but to say Brawl is a downgrade from Melee is a very short sighted comment. The competitive play for Brawl will be just as or more intense than Melee's has been in the years to come. Most of the "advance" stuff wasn't even intended and keep in mind stuff like wavedashing wouldn't work too well on Wi-Fi.

Seriously though the SSE is a huge step up for the single player or two player experience and now we can play online. Those a notable steps up not downgrades.
 

MikeMan445

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Messages
474
Location
Ramsey, NJ
dude isnt that a good thing... in smash 64 at least there were characters people actually played melee wasnt as good as 64... i didnt even use any of those advanced techs... were going to find new ones.. we got ink drop AKA trippy and if u fast fall before u attack theres less lag
Could you fail more if you tried?

Almost nothing in this entire post is actually true.
 

Revak

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
130
Location
Missouri
Man what is it, Day 4 and people are still complaining? Thought you guys would be over it by now..
 

Shuma

Smash Hero
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,407
Melee was better than 64? No seriously was it? Gameplay wise.

I mean i played both, but i don't remember how they compare.
 

shadydentist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2006
Messages
1,035
Location
La Jolla, CA
From a purely gameplay viewpoint, melee was much better than 64. Z-cancelling and lack of DI made it possible to do ridiculous combos from which it was impossible to escape. Melee combos were much more dependent upon reading your opponent well, and it looks as if combos have disappeared entirely in brawl.
 

Sariku

Smash Master
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
4,384
Location
Biloxi, Mississippi
Combo's are not gone >.> We just haven't figured them out yet.

Remember when Melee was released? No one was expecting it to be a thing like it turned out to be, so shut the hell up all this. I swear, I'd rather have all the "leaks" and "prophets" rather than all the flame for the game.
 

mosk123

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
274
SSB64 was my favourite game,.. UNTIL meelee was relased. thats one of my fav games

CANT WAIT FOR BRAWL AHH
 

spindash

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
722
Location
Edmonton, Alberta
I'll respect your opinion. But in my opinion, your opinion sucks @$$.

You need to quit comparing Brawl to Melee. They're different games that will play differently. Deal with it already. If nothing changed in the mechanics, we'd merely have just Melee 2.0.

And no, you do not want that. Otherwise you can just keep playing in the past while we keep moving forward. It's your choice.
 

shadydentist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2006
Messages
1,035
Location
La Jolla, CA
What I meant with the comment about combos is that hitstun is severely reduced, making it harder to follow up. Not saying if thats good or bad, just different.
 

Kio Iranez

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
779
Location
Queens, New York
I bet Melee's release would've been like this if it was as hyped as Brawl.

Just because it's not like Melee doesn't mean it won't be good.
 

~^.NoiR.^~

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
913
Location
Grayson, GA
Doesn't mean it will be good either. From the looks of it right now, it seems slow paced and lame. H3 is slow paced and lame compared to H2. As time goes on hopefully it will get better, but that doesn't mean it will. Just got to wait and see.
 

Nasanieru

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
288
Location
SoCal
Wait until people actually get good at the game. . .
Please there are alot of threads like this, we don't need any more.
SSB64 was a great game btw, that comment does not degrade Brawl in any way.
Don't expect to know the game's full potential in the first week it is released, Melee took a LONG TIME to get to where it is now.
 

veil222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
269
Wavedashing isn't needed, L-cancelling isn't needed anymore because of sheild hit physics and lag time adjustment of alot of moves, characters overall move slower, and float more, but many characters attacks are faster, and have better hit boxes. People are upset because the things that favored fast characters, things that made melee unbalanced, have been removed, or fixed with new physics. What the hell was so great about a tournament scene that made half the roster useless? I'd sacrifice some depth just to not be forced to play broken or overplayed characters to not get trashed at tournaments. Luckily, no depth was taken out, people just fail to see that yet.
 

Swu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
39
ok how does my opinion suck.

its not a totally different game. its not like smash suddently became a fps or something. For instance in every update of Tekken more characters were put in with more move sets and tactics they didnt take out things unless they were unbalanced.

How is this update in the smash series progressing competitively if they are removing tech instead of building onto it. its counterintuative to remove tech rather then *at least keep *if not add on tech that made competitive SSBM possible jsut because its a quote "different game"

Think about it in halo terms. Halo 3 compared to 2 and 1. more weapons more equipment. How do you think people would react if they decided to jsut go up and ahead and remove key components of the game like getting rid of vehicles or suddenly grenades were removed.
 

veil222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
269
L-canceling and wavedashing were unbalance, they favored speed characters, they restricted the roster by ONE HALF for tournament play. Look at my post right above yours, I've explained this in about 4 threads now. Old adv. techs aren't needed because of the new physics, and in most cases, the new physics add MORE DEPTH AND REQUIER THE PLAYER TO THINK MORE.
 

Swu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
39
how does L-canceling and wave dashing favor speed chars. People wave dashed and L-cancled with all chars. How can you say L-canceling didnt favor ganondorf. It didnt make characters unbalanced it made hardcore players in another class then just casual players. thereby making the difference betweening playing with casual players and those players playing in tournaments.

lets say they just decided to remove all "inbalanced tech because someone couldnt do it" lets just have 2 chars frozen and see which player can spam A the fastest

also wave-dashing wasnt mainly about "lag hits or whatnot" it gave melee an added point in mind game and char positioning and timing

in what game are there not a teir list. so what if it restricts the roster. you think in halo somone is suddenly going to win MLG with a needler? why dont we just give every char a different name with a different costume but give them all the same move sets and speed. Oh what a great game that would be
 

PwnyRide

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
638
Location
Australia
ok how does my opinion suck.

its not a totally different game. its not like smash suddently became a fps or something. For instance in every update of Tekken more characters were put in with more move sets and tactics they didnt take out things unless they were unbalanced.

How is this update in the smash series progressing competitively if they are removing tech instead of building onto it. its counterintuative to remove tech rather then *at least keep *if not add on tech that made competitive SSBM possible jsut because its a quote "different game"

Think about it in halo terms. Halo 3 compared to 2 and 1. more weapons more equipment. How do you think people would react if they decided to jsut go up and ahead and remove key components of the game like getting rid of vehicles or suddenly grenades were removed.
Who gives a crap about advanced techniques. they changed the way things work. Change is good once in a while, ya know? I mean god forbid you'll have to change your playstyle, but no, instead you post on a forum and persuade people to beleive that game isnt that good. You dont NEED these techniques if you learn how to play properly. But that requires you, to again, change.

Players make the game good, not advanced techniques, and if you arent making the game look good, chances are you suck.

I live in Australia. We are going to get the game last. We dont take it for granted. THAT is why im so infuriated and pissed at people at you, because you simply dont APPRECIATE what's been given to you. You dont have any obligation to, but you can at least try, expecially when you're telling other people about how the game is.

You come across as if the game doesnt have any depth. YOU have as much depth, as a kiddy pool.

You dont sound like you know what you're taking about, you sound pathetic, and i pity you.
 

True Fool

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
524
Location
Vegas
You have no room to speak until you've been a part of Brawl's competitive scene for about a few years. There's no way in hell that everything would be figured out this early. F*cking idiots, get a copy and start looking for some new techs. You're not doing anyone any good by stating how horrible the competitive scene will be before you even know anything.

Smash is not GG or SF. A sequel to Smash is not the same game with better balance and maybe a new character every now and then. It's a new game.

Maybe there won't be any depth. I have no idea because I don't have the game yet, and even if I did, it certainly wouldn't have been long enough to find every advanced technique. I'm going to get the game and have fun playing with my friends, and if and when I find out about the game's depth, I'll see if I enjoy the game competitively like I did with Melee. And if I don't, I can still play it with my friends.
 

Edfishy

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
19
Location
GR, Michigan
Smash Brothers 64 had a really distinctive "fun" feeling to it, in my oppinion, the attempt to make Smash Brothers more realistic really is going in the wrong direction. The box cover: ( http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/large/987680405-00.jpg ) for the original N64 game is what Smash Brothers should look like on the Wii2.

In anycase, what irritated me the most in Melee was the severe lack of knockback any type of move caused. It was fun to knock people back in SSB64.
 

Swu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
39
you dont take away techniques in a new installment in a series. no i dont need those techniques but i would definately expect to see them back, sure add some more tech and tweak the physics. add some new features, online play hoorah, new modes? cuts scenes? sweet!

a hyperbole but essentially what i mean, halo 4 being a western shooter and master chief being a cowboy. i mean even people who say they are enjoying the game say its slower paced, why would you make a series that progressed that such as melee suddenly drop to be less responsive and slower. Let the next installment of couterstrike be fast paced FPS like unreal tournament and ask how people who enjoyed the semirealism of CS feel about that.
 

True Fool

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
524
Location
Vegas
Smash Brothers is NOT a regular fighting game. Each installment is different from each other. We managed to get depth out of the 64 game as well as Melee, and I wouldn't be surprised if we did out of Brawl.

But these games are not made with the competitive player in mind. The balance between characters is the one nod we get, and even that is never perfect. Melee's advanced techniques took pretty long to find out. You can't spend all your time b*tching over old techniques, you have to look for new techniques.
 

Demon-oni

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
472
NNID
Thanatos-Demon
3DS FC
0147-1152-7184
omg. will these threads ever stop? *coughs* NO *coughs* listen, i personally like the fact of playing without advanced techs to winning. Doesn't mean i don't use 'em either. And for all those melee puritans out, there are still advanced techniques, just not the same ones, i've seen vids of them. And for all those that complain about "Even with techs and combos, it's still too slow" you guys are just f****** picky. You know what I think you guys play? "Hey, let's try to finish our match in 1 minute". If you don't have time to play the game, don't complain about it, it makes you look like a d*** a** in front of people. You don't have to move 500 times per second to have fun. My advice, you can take it or leave it, while you're ranting about the problems, I'll be having fun.
 

veil222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
269
People are making way too many assumptions here.

The reason they took away L-canceling is because with the new physics it's not needed. L-canceling favored faster characters because it reduces alot of moves lag time to 0, which had special implications such as semi-infinite combos and invunerability to punishment if executed properly. Slower characters could NEVER get to 0 lag with any of their moves, and were always punishable, even MORE SO when face with a fast character that can punish easily.


Wave dashing also favored faster characters, because in the rare case a situation came up where they could be punished or coulden't get in to punish something, they could wavedash. Yes, slow characters used it that way too, but they didn't have as many opening to do so as fast characters.

Taking these away and adding physics that EVERY CHARACTER can take advantage of EQUALLY TO THE EXTENT OF BALANCE means that any character, with practice, can be as good as any other character.

People also assume slower equals less difficult/technical, this is also not true. Both parties involved have more time to think, to plan and counter plan. If you remove blanket tools like l-canceling that work in every situation, and imply situational physics, players are forced to consider other options, which now are plentiful.

Even if new techs are found, I really do believe they will work to the advantage of any character in the correct situation, and every tech will have a counter for EVERY CHARACTER. This is the insane challenge of having both balance and depth, and don't kid yourself, that's incredibly hard to pull off.
 

Swu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
39
its not ask if they dont have competitive gaming in mind. and also if nintendo released melee first then smash 64 after what would you think? a downgrade? yes definately.

why? because the physics is slower and a lot bunch of techniques that coined a game are gone. if you want a slow game why do we just get nintendo to make brawl a turnbased fighter.

and give me a break with this tech favoring only the faster characters. you really thinkg bowser is balance with the faster chars in brawl? brawl in its essence is not balanced and physics based tech will always benefit the faster chars. Even the new tech that comes from brawl.

the only way for the balance gamed your talking about is to implement pokemen philosophy into brawl. yea...ok lets rock, paper, scissor.
 

Arteen

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,627
Location
Vault
People are making way too many assumptions here.

...L-canceling favored faster characters...


...Wave dashing also favored faster characters...
Okay, so faster characters have the advantage of more useful L-canceling. We take out L-canceling, but faster characters still have the advantage of more useful wavedashing. We take out wavedashing, but faster characters still have the advantage of being faster. Why don't we just make all the characters the same speed?
 

Swu

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
39
Okay, so faster characters have the advantage of more useful L-canceling. We take out L-canceling, but faster characters still have the advantage of more useful wavedashing. We take out wavedashing, but faster characters still have the advantage of being faster. Why don't we just make all the characters the same speed?
exactly my point about tech and faster chars. thank you for putting it clearly
 

PwnyRide

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
638
Location
Australia
Okay, so faster characters have the advantage of more useful L-canceling. We take out L-canceling, but faster characters still have the advantage of more useful wavedashing. We take out wavedashing, but faster characters still have the advantage of being faster. Why don't we just make all the characters the same speed?
And heavy characters have Super Armor. Whoops, looks like speed isnt the only thing that gives characters an edge anymore.
 

Digman

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
22
I haven't played the game yet, but the internet hype monster is making me wet my pants.
 

veil222

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
269
They don't have the advantage of being faster, speed is an innate character stat that is balanced against all of their other statistics and those of the other characters. It's more complex than this, but this is the general idea: if a character is slow, they are also usually heavy, if they are heavy, than most of their attacks are very powerful, if a character is fast, their usually light, if their light, than most of their attacks are weaker. There are so much more variables that add into it such as range, priority, knockback, lag time, duration, and so on, but character traits are balanced.

L-canceling and wavedashing are *physics characteristics* that affect the entire cast of characters in a set way. L-cancelling was a characteristic that interacted with a characters attack speed and landing lag statistics, wavedashing interaced with a characters jump start up time statistic, air dodge statistic, and friction statistic. Characters with higher statistics in those areas gain a lot more from those physics characteristics than other characters with NO COMPENSATION to the characters that didn't gain as much from them. This would be like giving a slow character nothing but weak attacks, their not getting compensated in any way for being slow.

Specifically, characters like falco could reach zero lag time with l-cancelling paired with some of their faster moves. They have those moves for alot of reasons, their light, they're fast fallers, they don't do alot of damage, etc. Thus, they are ALREADY compensated for being so by having moves that are already so fast. The problem comes up with the zero lag time state of certain moves, this is overcompensation for the fast character, because the slow characters cannot gain any zero lag time moves in order to be on equal footing with the fast characters. The obvious rebuttle to this is that they don't need any zero lag moves because they've been compensated by being very strong, thus, they ARE on equal footing as far as balance goes. However, zero lag moves break this idea, because zero lag moves have special implications such as the potential of semi-infinite combos, and un-punishible attacks. Slow characters have none of those, which is why L-cancelling is unbalanced.

This issue isn't as simple as people make it, and if you're someone who believes that a game must favor speed to be technical, then you don't have balance in mind, and all characters WOULD have to be the same speed in order to be balanced.
 
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