Bowser's New U-throw options

[S_B]

Yeah. Hopefully they wise up. It's so dumb that most other fighting games have devs that are completely on top of balancing, but Smash 4's devs don't pay much attention.

It's also WHERE they pay attention that matters.

I feel like they're balancing partially on FG and partially off of the Japanese tournament scene, which means that Sakurai probably said to himself, "Hey, wait, isn't Bowser in this game or something?" when he realized he hadn't seen a Bowser player in Japan's scene in the entire time the game has been out.

 

[Xandercosm]

It's also WHERE they pay attention that matters.

I feel like they're balancing partially on FG and partially off of the Japanese tournament scene, which means that Sakurai probably said to himself, "Hey, wait, isn't Bowser in this game or something?" when he realized he hadn't seen a Bowser player in Japan's scene in the entire time the game has been out.

That's when Sakurai said: "Oh yeah! We added him in Melee, didn't we?"

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah, but when you grab Rosa, Luma jumps behind her after a moment so you need to do it very quickly if you want to hit Luma (like immediately).

My only real concern about Bowser's followup is that FG players unfortunately seem to have picked it up VERY quickly, which means we're probably going to hear many complaints about Bowser players on FG and Sakurai might listen to that whining and nerf him.

Again, the biggest buff to heavies would be a nerf to the top tiers.

But as for making heavies competitive in SSB5, I think there's definitely hope. Sakurai has acknowledged the existence of a competitive scene this time around and I think they're at least TRYING to balance the game. Maybe the "combo armor" mechanic where the more times a character is hit in succession, the less hitstun they get until they can Nair out of any combo would be a good place for them to start.

That would ensure that a heavy's weight isn't completely negated by combos in the first 30 seconds of the match...

Why not go the simpler method and give everyone a burst like in Guilty Gear?

 

[Conn1496]

It's funny that everyone treats Bowser like Sakurai forgets he exists, but you have to remember that on launch he was significantly better than in previous games. If Brawl!Bowser was what we got for Smash4, then we'd be screwed, but we aren't. Infact, a lot of people complained that Bowser felt OP on launch, and still occasionally do, so I get the feeling that not buffing Bowser is more down to keeping the game fun for newbies, whereas not nerfing Sheik and ZSS, etc is to basically not piss off fans of those characters and keep the competitive scene happy that they don't have to suddenly throw down their main because it got nerfed to dust (Even though *cough* DIDDY HAPPENED *cough*.).

I personally just don't think heavies live up to their name enough. Because of combos etc. they're cripplingly easy to damage and in turn, KO. So it just makes you think they need a super-armor-esque mechanic for these characters that isn't as weak as, say, Bowser's "Tough Guy" (Which is basically "Don't flinch at 1% damage attacks if you're not already damaged.).

In regards to U-throw, I don't think it's really that horrible an addition. It's fine to complain about Bowsers on FG picking it up and spamming it, but it's only ever going to be as annoying as, say, Ness in general. -and a lot of people have already found ways around bad Ness players, so bad Bowser players aren't even really a problem. IMO this is actually a good, fair buff, and I don't think they can rightfully nerf Bowser for it (I mean, the first guy that actually even tried to abuse this on me (In a salty ditto, no less.) whiffed, so it's not like it's totally skill-less. (You tend to have to read DI, too, etc.)).

I just think they're listening a bit too hard to the community in terms of what makes a character good. You'll notice that on release Bowser was improved through his mobility, and now we're getting a combo throw it all feels like a very uniform buff you could apply to any character, and beside the point of heavy characters. I'm pretty sure similar things happened to all the heavies actually, most notably Ike who got huge mobility buffs in whatever patch it was (-and IIRC throw options) and is now semi-respectable as a character.

While I think it's the wrong way to buff these characters, since it's not playing to their strengths and attributes it's still a fair buff, and it's just ridiculous to complain either way (Even if I do think post-buff Ike can go eat a ****.).

 

[Xandercosm]

Honestly, I think the U-throw buff is a godsend for Bowser. If it's preventing you from beating Bowser, you must have to practice Smash 4 some more. Cause Bowser still has awful weaknesses. I think this is good, since it's forcing people to get some MU knowledge. Plus, giving a character a throw combo is the best way to buff a character competitively without hurting casual play (which matters to Sakurai). I love this buff and I think it's the best we're gonna get. Yes, in a perfect world they would have buffed him to play to his strengths but I'll take what I can get.

 

[S_B]

Honestly, I think the U-throw buff is a godsend for Bowser. If it's preventing you from beating Bowser, you must have to practice Smash 4 some more. Cause Bowser still has awful weaknesses. I think this is good, since it's forcing people to get some MU knowledge. Plus, giving a character a throw combo is the best way to buff a character competitively without hurting casual play (which matters to Sakurai). I love this buff and I think it's the best we're gonna get. Yes, in a perfect world they would have buffed him to play to his strengths but I'll take what I can get.

That's pretty much what it boils down to: we'll take what we can get.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You guys are forgetting about necessary flaws for balance. The thing with Bowser and other heavies is that they can deal big damage while taking the same amount. UThrow is what Bowser needed for his design. Same with Donkey Kong. Ganondorf has his tech traps which have high risk, high reward. Dedede... he has gordos and disjoints. Ike is the closest to a more neutral based heavy.

They can deal big damage if they can hit thing is what you want to say. In the same timeframe we are able to dish out 50% worth of damage we will likely have taken 150% damage.

Such balance. Much meta.

 

[Xandercosm]

They can deal big damage if they can hit thing is what you want to say. In the same timeframe we are able to dish out 50% worth of damage we will likely have taken 150% damage.

Such balance. Much meta.

Thanks, as always, Sakurai...

 

[Big-Cat]

They can deal big damage if they can hit thing is what you want to say. In the same timeframe we are able to dish out 50% worth of damage we will likely have taken 150% damage.

Such balance. Much meta.

Hyperbole much?

 

[S_B]

Hyperbole much?

It's basically the eternal conundrum of fighting game balance: How do you make a slow character who hits hard not suck at competitive levels but not be crazy over powered at casual levels?

The short answer: Hoo-Haas...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Meanwhile with tough guy....hey........tough guy.....you still work here...?

Well damn. Still out of a job.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's basically the eternal conundrum of fighting game balance: How do you make a slow character who hits hard not suck at competitive levels but not be crazy over powered at casual levels?

The short answer: Hoo-Haas...

3S Makoto, Urien, Goro in KOF '98, Potemkin in certain guilty gear builds, etc. it's not impossible.

With the case of Smash, people here can't do anything but zone or rush. No oki, no footsies, etc.

 

[Conn1496]

Something I actually noticed recently is that at much higher %s, the traditional DI away option that usually throws the U-throw > U-air combo off is beneficial to you since at %s where you can't usually hit the combo without DI, there's actually enough hitstun for you to reach them if they DI away. There's usually a bit of overlap where both can be hit, but it's still worth noting that DI away isn't always the best option. I think people will have to watch out for that.

It's kind of like this:
DI away or die % < No escape % < DI in or die %

Obviously all 3 percent ranges will be different against all characters, but I tend to find that the heavier a character is compared to how much of a beating they can take, the larger the no escape % is. I dunno how things like gravity and air-speed factor in, but generally heavies are easier to combo, though because they survive longer, their KO %s in general are higher, which tends to squeeze the DI or die %s.

 

[S_B]

3S Makoto, Urien, Goro in KOF '98, Potemkin in certain guilty gear builds, etc. it's not impossible.

With the case of Smash, people here can't do anything but zone or rush. No oki, no footsies, etc.

Smash needs to balance characters around four player brawling, though. It would be LOADS easier to balance characters in SSB around 1v1s if it was a 1v1 fighting game...

Something I actually noticed recently is that at much higher %s, the traditional DI away option that usually throws the U-throw > U-air combo off is beneficial to you since at %s where you can't usually hit the combo without DI, there's actually enough hitstun for you to reach them if they DI away. There's usually a bit of overlap where both can be hit, but it's still worth noting that DI away isn't always the best option. I think people will have to watch out for that.

It's kind of like this:
DI away or die % < No escape % < DI in or die %

Obviously all 3 percent ranges will be different against all characters, but I tend to find that the heavier a character is compared to how much of a beating they can take, the larger the no escape % is. I dunno how things like gravity and air-speed factor in, but generally heavies are easier to combo, though because they survive longer, their KO %s in general are higher, which tends to squeeze the DI or die %s.

This is a very good point.

There's a certain % where, if you allow your character to go straight up in the air, you'll actually go high enough that Bowser won't be able to reach you whereas if you had put some of that travel into horizontal distance, Bowser would still be able to Uair you with a double jump.

 

[Conn1496]

This is a very good point.

There's a certain % where, if you allow your character to go straight up in the air, you'll actually go high enough that Bowser won't be able to reach you whereas if you had put some of that travel into horizontal distance, Bowser would still be able to Uair you with a double jump.

Basically.

I just think this is good knowledge for non-Bowsers more than anything, but still, something to be aware of when playing as Bows.

 

[Xandercosm]

Basically.

I just think this is good knowledge for non-Bowsers more than anything, but still, something to be aware of when playing as Bows.

SHHHH! We don't want them to know!

 

[Deadlyx]

Is it possible to use a dair to punish someone who air dodges?

 

[MagiusNecros]

If you know they will be on conditioning them to do so then yes.

 

[RetroTurtle]

I put up a Bowser guide if anyone wants to take a look, I may have found a way to read the opponents DI at high percent to guarantee a Koo-Pah kill. That along with a 0-50% combo so check it out if you want.