Social Bowser's Castle

[MagiusNecros]

Eh if they expect you want to break their shield with Fsmash they can literally just shieldgrab you before your attack even comes out. I've had it happen.

 

[S_B]

I don't know.

I've had times where through constant shield pressure, an uncharged fsmash effortlessly breaks the shield once it's low enough, though this is a rarity.

This is what gives me some hope that Sakurai or whoever at Namco is managing balance tweaks will wake up and realize that Bowser could be made competitively viable without giving him a throw followup if they instead gave him some reliable means of setting up shield pressure that leads to a break.

It would also be nice because it would set Bowser apart from DK competitively. DK is a character who wants to grab you to rack damage and then headbutt you into the stratosphere. Bowser would be the character who wants to force you to shield something so he can trap you into a shield break, and the beauty is that NEITHER character would be overpowered in casual play because of these strategies.

I think fire breath should be the catalyst: reduce the lag on finish and if we can catch a person with it within a certain range in front of us in their shield, we should be able to follow it up with a quick run up Dtilt for the break.

It also gives Bowser an additional quirk when fighting him: you DON'T want Bowser to catch you in your shield, which makes his zoning game a lot more threatening because one slip up and instead of just taking some damage, you could eat a dully charged dropkick.

Man, I want this so badly for Bowser now...

Eh if they expect you want to break their shield with Fsmash they can literally just shieldgrab you before your attack even comes out. I've had it happen.

I hate the **** out of this...

 

[KingKong_ad]

I need to upload a replay to youtube but its longer than 3mins so I cant. Is there anyone who can do it ? I need it for for one my clip.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I like Fsmash against compulsive shielding, at least on paper. With the shield lock timer lasting for a minimum of 11 frames from the point they bring it up, people don't have the sense to hold shield even when danger is coming. And they're critically vulnerable for the seven frames after they let go. Fsmash has 22 startup, so if it takes them at least 4 frames to react to an incoming attack (hint:attentive human reaction timing is somewhere in the realm of 12-15 frames at maximum), you would catch somebody in a scenario where they would instead block a stray tilt or jab poke.

Fire Breath could very well use an endlag reduction. Being one of very few projectile attacks that cannot be spammed forever by design, it seems natural to at least make the move difficult to punish. Compare it to Robin's Thunder and Fire tomes, and there's just no comparison in utility. However, at 33 frames endlag, you'd need to drop it to a ludicrous 5-10 endlag to have any shield pressure mixup with our high startup attacks. 7 for a jab, 10 for a tilt, 11 for a dash attack/Bomb. That's not even considering how long it would take to close the distance with the target to ever get in range.

I don't think there's a need to deviate Bowser's playstyle from DK's, since we've been championing it longer than he has. Condition the target to shield with safe jabbing and tilts, then mixup with dash grab and flying slam while they're stuck in shieldlock. You may think Dk's RAR Bair is good for shield pressure, but the reality is it's just 6 frames safer on block than Bowser's own falling Fair. That should be pretty enlightening since both moves deal the same damage, assuming DK hits with a strong, 13% Bair.

I need to upload a replay to youtube but its longer than 3mins so I cant. Is there anyone who can do it ? I need it for for one my clip.

If you send it to me, I can make an mp4 out of it and email it to you. My Nintendo ID is Glennstavos.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I sent you the friend request, thanks a lot

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I sent you the friend request, thanks a lot

I have it. But it seems to be too big to send over email. I sent you a message on Skype, you can get the file from there.

 

[MrEh]

Most of the time when I get people to shield break ranges, I just Dtilt. Covers a lot of options and will either break or poke in those situations.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Played my buddy's donkey kong last night. It was pretty tense. Almost lost until I started implementing shad cancels and klaw cancels and somehow turned the fight around. DK has some decent range for his power. And he hits pretty hard. Good thing my buddy doesn't know about the kart throw stuff.

 

[Big Sean]

Went to LA and participated in the 2GG Fatality Saga. I lost to a Pit where I threw away a game where he was at 160% and i was at 80% and a Robin named. I realized Robin is kind of my achilles heel right now. I'd rather play a ZSS at the moment than Robin.

Anyway, everywhere I went people just kept talking about Z ZorkThedork this or Z ZorkThedork that. You could see the fear in their eyes as they described playing you. You must really do a number to the socal community.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Big Sean Dang, wish I knew you were in the area. I would have drove up to see you.

 

[Big Sean]

UltimaLuminaire yeah i bought my ticket to LA only on Monday, and it was that very morning that I convinced my girlfriend to spend a chunk of our vacation playing video games

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

and it was that very morning that I convinced my girlfriend to spend a chunk of our vacation playing video games

Smart lass.

Just how many Bowsers do we have between SoCal and NorCal? I feel like I'm missing out on something special.

 

[Big Sean]

ones i know:

Norcal:
Big Sean
@a stray cat
Cronoc

Socal:
Z ZorkThedork
UltimaLuminaire
Zigsta

 

[Cronoc]

Supposedly there's a good Bowser in Sacramento too, but this is just hearsay...

 

[BarSoapSoup]

All these Bowser players in California I could play with and learn from, and here I am sitting alllllll the way in the DC area...

 

[Zigsta]

We also have a Bowser main named Tree in SoCal.

Also hi guys! I haven't posted in forever between work, writing, and moving. My little bit of time for Smash has almost been entirely dedicated to the Smash 4 Back Room. So rest assured that we've got Bowser rep in there! We're brainstorming some cool stuff right now.

Hope everyone has been well.

 

[Big Sean]

Zigsta bring Bowsercide back !!!!11!1!!1

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Zigsta I believe in you.

 

[Zigsta]

Zigsta bring Bowsercide back !!!!11!1!!1

I've brought up the issue, but at the moment the 4BR's priorities aren't on rulesets. I'll definitely bring it up again when the time is right.

Also UltimaLuminaire check your FB!

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Zigsta Thanks for the heads up!

 

[ZorkThedork]

Went to LA and participated in the 2GG Fatality Saga. I lost to a Pit where I threw away a game where he was at 160% and i was at 80% and a Robin named. I realized Robin is kind of my achilles heel right now. I'd rather play a ZSS at the moment than Robin.

Anyway, everywhere I went people just kept talking about Z ZorkThedork this or Z ZorkThedork that. You could see the fear in their eyes as they described playing you. You must really do a number to the socal community.

Oh thats cool, yeah, I think I was the only consistently entering bowser that placed top 8-10 all last PR season, I think I got like 6 different PR wins also. I've been on a break to play Xenoblade, Fallout, Black Ops. I'm planning to go to G3 but I still don't know about housing for me and my bud so I'm not 100% about it.

Was the Robin named Hexfactor or Shinta? they are the only two robins in socal that I know, I've played them quite a few times in tournament.

 

[Cassius.]

probably old, but there's a way for bowser to curtail his landing lag frames. I've only been able to do it using aerials for some reason, so maybe it has something to do with FAF or autocancel frames?

If you do fullhop...anything but DAir, fastfall and time Up-B or any special move, he'll start that move as soon as he hits the ground without suffering from any hard landing. It's similar to doing an airdodge cancel from a full jump, which is why I think this is probably old news and the application of it is kind of pointless unless you miss an aerial and want to not deal with hard landing.

I seriously tried to get this to work by only jumping, because that would be huge...but I can't do it. It's weird too because due to the hard landing, bowser bomb inputs if buffered don't come out at all. Everything else when buffered comes out after the landing frames are finished. It could be some execution issue on my end, but I just thought all of this was weird.

I also have the timing for SHAD cancels off of the ledge kinda-sorta consistently but its way too inconsistent and the price for ****ing it up outweighs anything we get from it.

perfect pivot jab is actually really good too because of our confirms in neutral from it--someone mentioned it before...it might have been Dre, but i wanted to reaffirm it. But again it's one of those things that's good when you don't mess it up, but it messes up way too often. and doing a dash attack and missing/hitting a shield is horrible.

I'm assuming you guys saw that beefy smash video about landing out of tumbles. We actually have something in this game that bowser can do, and the window for it is pretty huge. 12 frames, I think?

 

[BarSoapSoup]

probably old, but there's a way for bowser to curtail his landing lag frames. I've only been able to do it using aerials for some reason, so maybe it has something to do with FAF or autocancel frames?

If you do fullhop...anything but DAir, fastfall and time Up-B or any special move, he'll start that move as soon as he hits the ground without suffering from any hard landing. It's similar to doing an airdodge cancel from a full jump, which is why I think this is probably old news and the application of it is kind of pointless unless you miss an aerial and want to not deal with hard landing.

I seriously tried to get this to work by only jumping, because that would be huge...but I can't do it. It's weird too because due to the hard landing, bowser bomb inputs if buffered don't come out at all. Everything else when buffered comes out after the landing frames are finished. It could be some execution issue on my end, but I just thought all of this was weird.

I also have the timing for SHAD cancels off of the ledge kinda-sorta consistently but its way too inconsistent and the price for ****ing it up outweighs anything we get from it.

perfect pivot jab is actually really good too because of our confirms in neutral from it--someone mentioned it before...it might have been Dre, but i wanted to reaffirm it. But again it's one of those things that's good when you don't mess it up, but it messes up way too often. and doing a dash attack and missing/hitting a shield is horrible.

I'm assuming you guys saw that beefy smash video about landing out of tumbles. We actually have something in this game that bowser can do, and the window for it is pretty huge. 12 frames, I think?

I think I remember watching an AceStarThe3rd Unstoppable video where he tried to demonstrate something similar. I have attempted it in practice but am not alwyas consistent. It would still be super satisfying to Klaw Captain Falcon right in his smug face for not respecting Bowser.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm assuming you guys saw that beefy smash video about landing out of tumbles. We actually have something in this game that bowser can do, and the window for it is pretty huge. 12 frames, I think?

Bowser's Dair is the move with 13 A frames on startup, but unless Bowser has just exited hitstun, the move will make him rise before falling, resulting in no A-landing. Bowser has something better though. We can A-land with Flying Slam instead. That move works on any frame, even after the grab comes out. So you can wait until just before touching the ground like other A-landings, or put out the grab box by inputting 17 frames earlier. Either application is excellent.

As for the cancelling of hard landing lag frames, is this what you're talking about? As far as I know, you can only cancel the lag during autocancel frames from an aerial, not from an empty hop. And not from an autocancelled short hop either. All aerials except Dair are possible with this tech. But because it's full hops only, we can't do cool things like Shorthop autocancel Fair into Flying Slam on landing. Not as far as I know, anyway. KingKong_ad was working on a thread for studying various possibilities of cutting Bowser's 6 frame hard landing lag.

 

[Big Sean]

Oh thats cool, yeah, I think I was the only consistently entering bowser that placed top 8-10 all last PR season, I think I got like 6 different PR wins also. I've been on a break to play Xenoblade, Fallout, Black Ops. I'm planning to go to G3 but I still don't know about housing for me and my bud so I'm not 100% about it.

Was the Robin named Hexfactor or Shinta? they are the only two robins in socal that I know, I've played them quite a few times in tournament.

Hexfactor!

 

[KingKong_ad]

Im doing more and more double bowsercide to win games under 30seconds. Gotta play lame sometimes

 

[Cronoc]

Alright guys, I registered for Genesis 3. We Bowsers should meet up there.

Im doing more and more double bowsercide to win games under 30seconds. Gotta play lame sometimes

As long as your region allows it...

 

[KingKong_ad]

Why it wouldnt allow it ?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What did you mean by "double bowsercide"? I assume you meant getting the first stock, and bowserciding for the immediate victory.

That's the best way to suicide as long as they can't make it back. Any character MU that can't kill Bowser without a significant read has to really watch out for this.

 

[Cronoc]

Why it wouldnt allow it ?

Many regions don't include Bowser in their suicide clauses. At Genesis 3 for example, Bowserciding on both player's last stock will give the win to the other player. Used to be different, but Genesis 3 rules are now in effect in California leading up to that tournament.

 

[KingKong_ad]

Zapp I mean I start the match with a bowdercide and on the second stock, another bowsercide.

Im confused on why there is a rule specially for bowsercide...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Many regions don't include Bowser in their suicide clauses. At Genesis 3 for example, Bowserciding on both player's last stock will give the win to the other player. Used to be different, but Genesis 3 rules are now in effect in California leading up to that tournament.

I didn't find any rules on the website. Just a "TBA". Could you provide a link? I'm not versed on how we're currently handling suicide moves and sudden death scenarios.

Zapp I mean I start the match with a bowdercide and on the second stock, another bowsercide.

Oh, well if they're not gonna fight back against Bowser's control or play a character that can recover to the ledge, then they lose. It's all part of learning the Bowser MU. There's stage counter picking against Bowsercide too. I don't feel sorry for them.

 

[Cronoc]

I didn't find any rules on the website. Just a "TBA". Could you provide a link? I'm not versed on how we're currently handling suicide moves and sudden death scenarios.

I remember reading it on the NorCal facebook group. Here's the best I could find. I remember there was some controversy because Big Sean unknowingly caused himself to lose a match when the rules were changed. Seems they go by results screen, and sudden death is a win for Bowser... I could have sworn it was a straight-up loss, maybe Big Sean can clear that up. Either way it's a coin toss now and a very dangerous one to decide a match on.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Forced Sudden Death is a win for Bowser. Which is really unreliable to begin with.

Result screen showing opponent off same stock Klaw is a loss for Bowser.

Opponent surviving Klaw is a loss for Bowser.

So in most cases Bowser is kinda screwed here.

Meanwhile Ganondorf never has to deal with this problem.

 

[Big Sean]

I remember reading it on the NorCal facebook group. Here's the best I could find. I remember there was some controversy because Big Sean unknowingly cause himself to lose a match when the rules were changed. Seems they go by results screen, and sudden death is a win for Bowser... I could have sworn it was a straight-up loss, maybe Big Sean can clear that up. Either way it's a coin toss now and a very dangerous one to decide a match on.

The genesis rule used to be Bowser loses every time. They recently made the official rule be that results screen decides. If it goes to a sudden death then it's a 1 stock 3 minute match.

 

[Jerodak]

I was at a tournament on Saturday. 17th out of 56. Still got some work to do, but between getting more serious with my training and being able to attend more events, there should be some significant improvements. I may go to an event this week as well, but we'll see.

 

[Cronoc]

So guys, lately I'm very occasionally doing something I don't think I've ever seen talked about. An approaching short hopped nair. Maybe it's some of the ZSS play getting to me... Obviously I have to land on top of the opponent afterwards, so barring a crossup and the resulting confusion, it's not safe on shield. But I've had success using it as a mixup. It needs a defensive, shielding opponent because of the long startup time before nair's hitboxes hit underneath Bowser, but it's deceptive enough to get an opponent to lower their shield before nair is over. Especially if they're used to shielding and punishing, nair is... something else we can do. I'm not saying it's the greatest, but it is different from the other jumping approach options. Thoughts?

 

[Big Sean]

Cronoc I actually just started practicing approaching nair today but for a completely different reason. I just played this crew battle and in it a villager was doing a pretty interesting counter to fortress OOS to cover his landing. He just fast fell and mashed jabbed. Alternatively he could have been tomahawk grabbing me but it got me thinking. Most of the time I read something like this, I just go for an early fortress. I get somewhere between 1 and 6% because they are already in the air. So I started thinking about optimal punishes.

Bowser bomb CAN work but if you do it too early the 2nd hit won't connect because of the far distance from the opponent. In addition you can't jump cancel it so overall the timing is very strict. Fair is something I hadn't considered before and actually works beautifully. But still what if i want more damage? Nair gets between 12% and 18% on average I bet if i'm approaching him while I Nair, 24% will happen way more often than usual. At low percentages Nair often leads to even more damage! Alternatively I can jump cancel a SHADC but I love the nair, i'm pretty sure it's as optimal as it gets.

 

[Cronoc]

Cronoc I actually just started practicing approaching nair today but for a completely different reason. I just played this crew battle and in it a villager was doing a pretty interesting counter to fortress OOS to cover his landing. He just fast fell and mashed jabbed. Alternatively he could have been tomahawk grabbing me but it got me thinking. Most of the time I read something like this, I just go for an early fortress. I get somewhere between 1 and 6% because they are already in the air. So I started thinking about optimal punishes.

Bowser bomb CAN work but if you do it too early the 2nd hit won't connect because of the far distance from the opponent. In addition you can't jump cancel it so overall the timing is very strict. Fair is something I hadn't considered before and actually works beautifully. But still what if i want more damage? Nair gets between 12% and 18% on average I bet if i'm approaching him while I Nair, 24% will happen way more often than usual. At low percentages Nair often leads to even more damage! Alternatively I can jump cancel a SHADC but I love the nair, i'm pretty sure it's as optimal as it gets.

For the short hop nair to work I think it really requires an unmoving, shielding opponent who's caught offguard by the 4 hits, or like in your example, an opponent who's just trying to get somewhere fast and isn't throwing out hitboxes. Because short hop nair is really a slow endeavor to pull off. The frame 8 hitbox doesn't mean much if the opponent isn't near where that hitbox starts, it's more like frame 13 or more if they're below Bowser. Yeah, it can lead into other things, which is a nice bonus. I feel like this needs to be a very rare mixup, but in certain contexts it really works quite nicely. As with many things Bowser, a cooperative opponent is helpful.

On a side-note, I feel like Norcal commentators know more about Bowser than any other region, just cause they see the character so much. Kinda funny. I get a little annoyed whenever commentators start talking about how Bowser kills early, the whole "heavies kill early" sentiment is way overrated. The only early kills Bowser is going to get are from Bowser bomb, a shield break or a ridiculous fsmash read. Hardly like ZSS or Meta Knight or Ryu or Little Mac etc.

 

[Jerodak]

I agree, especially when someone's all like "Yeah but Bowser can k.o at like 30%!" in the back of my head I always add on "from the edge with a forward smash."