Bowser vs. Wario matchup

[Overswarm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79HsI-Bidrw&list=UU6MAzh8WMiiwppNthZ4NPIA&index=11

So this was a weird matchup for me. I lost this tournament set, money matched him after the tournament and won, but still it was close. When I did do anything "good" I felt like I was abusing his lack of knowledge on the matchup rather than actually playing it correctly.

Does anyone have any experience with Wario? I doubt I will learn the matchup very well without outside videos/advice as we don't have any Wario players but Carls here and he appears to be learning as well.

I've found that

• you can punish Wario's dair on shield very well
• you can punish Wario's over-b with fair OoS as well as clank it with f-tilt
• Wario's bite combos directly into fart (which is awful)
• Wario's dair combos into u-air+nair combos which can often lead to bite on landing
• Wario is difficult to traditionally edgeguard
• Wario has difficulty landing actual straight up kill moves and often requires you to allow yourself to be hit by a spaced bair; otherwise he has to be right up on you
• You often have to recover high against Wario lest he get a free fart or spike. You will take damage.
• Your jab beats most of his close-range options
• Your fire breath doesn't do as well as you'd like given his aerial mobility and extreme punishes when attacking from overhead (dair into combo, falling u-air into combo, bite into fart, straight up fart)
• up+b OoS has to be used carefully as he can chase you with Over-B and kill you at surprisingly low % if you are hesitant with your retreat/don't have a ledge
• fair beats most of his aerial options but his mobility allows him to space out your fair and get under you if you aren't careful
• His jab rarely should get in, but when it does you're getting comboed
• Wario likes to d-smash or dair you when recovering. This is not hard for him to do because your recovery is so limited.
• Wario seems more likely than others to use his second jump and make himself vulnerable as a result; how to best punish it I'm not sure, but u-air is looking tasty
• Running d-tilt/dash attack is more dangerous in this matchup than most, as Wario can challenge your dash with his Over-B (basically his only move that can challenge you on the ground)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll respond by editing this post in an hour or two; I'm about to talk to someone about assisting in psych research.

 

[Oracle]

Wario dsmash won't hit you if you sweetspot. Dair is risky because you can stall just outside of the ledgegrab range for a second, then move. Bit doesn't combo into waft guaranteed, it only works if you don't DI correctly. Wario shouldn't be that difficult to edgeguard, since his low recovery is so bad vs. your ledge getup.

 

[Overswarm]

Wario dsmash won't hit you if you sweetspot. Dair is risky because you can stall just outside of the ledgegrab range for a second, then move. Bit doesn't combo into waft guaranteed, it only works if you don't DI correctly. Wario shouldn't be that difficult to edgeguard, since his low recovery is so bad vs. your ledge getup.

The d-smash won't hit if I sweetspot, but dair isn't particularly risky against Bowser. If Wario goes out away from the ledge and just jumps in place, he has a free opportunity to just sit on the giant turtle. It'd be risky if I was more mobile or less big, but I'm able to hit Bowser with an off-stage suicide Bowser bomb if I want; I'm sure Wario's can get the dair.

How do you DI to get out of the bite/waft? It may have just been the % I was at, but he was able to get it off quite a few times.

 

[Oracle]

Dair is harder than it would seem against bowser. Bit you just DI away (or away and down, can't remember), but he can throw you backwards or forwards, so you have to read his throw

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Hs...wppNthZ4NPIA&feature=player_detailpage#t=750s

Which way should have I DI'd to get out of that?

 

[Oracle]

probably down right or just right. Looked like you could have naired

 

[Ace55]

How do you punish Wario's dair on shield easily? I thought it was one of the few things up-B oos didn't work against, and your other oos options are slow as balls. In your set I don't recall seeing you punish it.

And as long as Wario is forced to used a B move to recover he should be easy enough to edgeguard. Side-B: intercept or let him land onstage and punish the horrible lag. He can't sweetspot it unless he does it from far away and hitting a wall means he still has to use up-b afterwards. Best thing he can do is edgecancel it. Up-B: do whatever you feel like.
However the majority of the time he'll be able to make it back with just his DJ which makes it harder to edgegaurd him.

I'm my experience Winged Angel Bowser is the most free thing to dair offstage since Donkey Kong. So yeah, recover high.

 

[Overswarm]

How do you punish Wario's dair on shield easily? I thought it was one of the few things up-B oos didn't work against, and your other oos options are slow as balls. In your set I don't recall seeing you punish it.

I didn't hit start to record the money match.

I found that I could fair him OoS every time.

And as long as Wario is forced to used a B move to recover he should be easy enough to edgeguard. Side-B: intercept or let him land onstage and punish the horrible lag. He can't sweetspot it unless he does it from far away and hitting a wall means he still has to use up-b afterwards. Best thing he can do is edgecancel it. Up-B: do whatever you feel like.
However the majority of the time he'll be able to make it back with just his DJ which makes it harder to edgegaurd him.

Pretty much the last line.

I'm my experience Winged Angel Bowser is the most free thing to dair offstage since Donkey Kong. So yeah, recover high.

Stay strong, brother.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sorry, ended up falling asleep at some point.

If Wario D-Airs your shield, I'm pretty sure Bowser can F-Air out-of-shield and punish him for it, because of how big F-Air is and because Wario doesn't bounce high after it.

Wario D-Air leads to all sorts of things, but it's very slow to start up and doesn't have a huge hitbox, so if you just stay in motion with dashdances and threaten with Up-B or shield -> F-Air, it shouldn't be a big threat outside of combos, IMO.

Don't actively be afraid of Forward-B. It's actually not that powerful if you're hit within the first half of the attack (it gets more powerful the further he's gone), so if you're worried about that being an issue, it can be better to cut your losses and get hit early. It's a monster of a move on hard reads, but otherwise it's really not so dangerous.

The way Bite works, he either throws you forward or backward; it tosses you up at an angle that's not actually so dangerous. However, you ideally would like to DI away from Wario, as it will put you far away enough to avoid any follow-ups. The problem with that is good DI for a forward Bite throws is awful DI for a back Bite throw, so it's a dangerous mix-up. If you DI incorrectly, Wario gets whatever he wants. If you just don't DI in any direction, I think the only thing Wario can do is F-Air you or run forward to try and pressure, so try that next time.

 

[Overswarm]

How does Wario typically approach (or can he?)?

When wario gets a grab I've typically seen a charged forward throw. Is this wario's correct option, or is there something else I should be looking for?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He can't get in without a poke going his way, if that's what you're asking. Expect some rising F-Air and falling B-Air (which can be swatted by a pre-emptive Bowser F-Air), D-Tilt (which can be CC'd), or an aggressive grab attempt (which would be mixed up with Forward-B because of the obvious animation similarities). Wario needs to get you in the air (even if "just barely" via D-Tilt or F-Air) so he can feel comfortable with starting stuff.

Charged F-Throw is rarely ideal outside of at high percents; it's supposed to be the best throw for putting the opponent offstage, but at lower percents near the edge, you get better positioning and frame advantage from uncharged F-Throw (since you can immediately follow up with aerials and the like instead of giving the opponent some time to plan/adjust), and at mid percents, you can B-Throw to move toward the edge if you grab them while you're toward the middle of the stage.

The ideal throw depends on character and percents. At a specific percent, U-Throw seems to combo into U-Air for no apparent reason (I'm talking 10-20%, low stuff), but the real mix-up lies in uncharged F-Throw/D-Throw. For all intents and purposes, these throws work very similarly to the mix-up of Forward/Backward Bite throw; good DI for one is bad DI for the other and vice-versa. They give him frame advantage and he can pressure well out of them. I don't really want to go over a basic Wario tutorial (as I already made one, and you should totally check it out on the Wario subforum for a better idea of how his stuff works), but, a lot of his game revolves around basic 50/50 mixups.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

*Edit*

Nevermind lol reflex said it better.

 

[Ace55]

Kind of theorysmashing here but down-b'ing from the stage to the ledge is always a great preemptive edgeguard as long as you make sure you time it right, aka make sure they can't grab the ledge before you. Any attempt to sweetspot with DJ get's absolutely destroyed because of how low and wide it hits. They can avoid it pretty easily but it would involve either airdodging through it or dropping under it and using up-B. Both those options should be pretty easily punished.

At least this works great vs Mario and Marth, don't see why it wouldn't against Wario.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think if Wario is far enough away that he no choice but to Up-B at a specific height, you may as well just edgehog him. Keep in mind that an Up-B that is pointed straight forward after the input doesn't go very high, so he can mix up when he Up-Bs a fair amount, kind of like G&W. Bowser doesn't want to end up SD'ing because of this, so he must think twice about it when it would "really" help.

 

[Ace55]

Crashboards keeps sabotaging my response.

I was talking about forcing Wario to choose an option other than DJ to the ledge. He can kind of mix up his recovery by side-b'ing a wall or farting but neither of those options make him grab the ledge any quicker, so as long as you time the Bowser Bomb for the DJ sweet spot there should be no real SD risk. If he's forced to up-b just to make it back then sure, edgehog him. BB vs sweetspot up-b is mostly handy against chars who can delay their up-b, like Marth or Mario. Although it still gets the job done vs nearly all non teleport, non tether up-Bs.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Wario is not so easily edge-hogged by down B as it may seem at first. That air mobility helps a LOT, and even if you try to time it, he can just airdodge through the Down B hit and get back onstage with little risk of getting followed up and hit.

 

[Ace55]

I must be explaing this poorly or idk. Your main goal isn't to hit or edgehog him with BB, you just want to 'block' the ledge to stop him from grabbing it with his double jump.

I'll instruct Ryuker to recover like that next time I play him. Right now he mostly just side-b's right at me so I just slap him.

 

[Ace55]

Example of what I was talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hILOhT1w8JE#t=303s

 

[Youngster Joey]

One of my biggest problems is his d smash. When I recover he usually d smashes me as a spike when I'm close to the ledge. Also on stage I can't ever seem to tech it. Is it possible to tech? I can tech any other move in the game so far perfectly fine. But what are options to fix these? When bowser has to get up it seems all wario has to do is side b and it covers all his options I think

 

[Ace55]

You can tech it yes. For getting up against side-b you should be able to roll towards him and go through it. If it hasn't traveled very far you should be able to clank it with get up attack (it gets stronger the further it travels as long as it's grounded).

For dsmash while recovering DI it toward the stage and tech if there are walls, or if you're close enough just smash DI and tech it. Otherwise I think it's such a weak meteor that even Boozer can survive it by meteor cancelling, although that's obviously tricky since he sucks at it so much.