Bowser Patch 1.14 changes

[Kerthorok]

If anything all this patch has done is made Bowser more deadly, but require more skill to use.

 

[-Kagato-]

If anything all this patch has done is made Bowser more deadly, but require more skill to use.

Pretty much. Less herp-a-derp, more skill, similar result.

 

[S_B]

This was realistically a nerf and here's why...

First of all, we average ~5% earlier to kill most characters, but the combo stops being true somewhere around 20-25% sooner.

The reason this is generally bad is simple: most of what Bowser does is going to deal 13-19% on hit anyway, and when our combo windows narrow, it means that we're going to have to fish for grabs EXTRA hard to get the kill in before it slips out of our hands for that stock.

And the problem, as a few Bowser mains had pointed out pre-1.1.3 was that Bowser has a terrible time actually landing the KO confirm against much of the cast, especially against the characters he struggles with the most.

Without the KO confirm, we're looking at killing around 120-130% on most characters with a lucky Dtilt, side+B, or a back/forward throw right at the ledge, and that sucks for a character who is SUPPOSED to have the advantage of somewhat earlier kills.

But imagine you're fighting Mario, for example, and you're now approaching the point where Uthrow>Uair will KO him. You have to factor in that...

-every hit he deals to you puts you further into rage, which will throw off the combo even more
-every hit you do to HIM is going to put at least 5% more onto him, and he's 1-2 aerials away from being safely above the KO confirm window
-a smart opponent will know both of the aforementioned and will know that you either need to fish for that grab now or he's going to make it to the relative safety of being above the combo %

Was the window on most characters very large before? Yes, but that's because we NEEDED it to be a big window since finesse isn't Bowser's specialty.

Even with the window being that size, I regularly found myself accidentally overshooting, leaving me to try one of our other kill options against an opponent who is way too smart to get hit by most of them. The alternative choice was to try to not deal any damage to my enemy and instead fish for the grab, which is insanely predictable and all around a bad strategy.

Thus, this is a nerf. Literally the only saving grace it has is that it allows us to kill slightly earlier, but I would HAPPILY kill 20% later in exchange for the window not closing.

If they're going to nerf our only reliable kill option, I wish they'd at least buff something else to compensate, like increase the hitbox size of klaw, or make our jabs slightly faster, or make F or Dtilt quicker.

Once Bowser has lost the kill confirm (either through rage or the opponent being too high, or both), he's basically right back to being relegated to all of the cruddy options he had before 1.1.3, and we all know how well those options work against even decently skilled opponents...

 

[LRodC]

I really don't think this is the end of the world. Bowser still has the same combos, but it makes the character less reliant on just one option all the time and forces him to get creative to end the stock (and he can still do it with up air, it's just tighter now). He has plenty of options to do this. If anything, it adds variety instead of him being focused around a single option like pre-patch Luigi and pre-patch Diddy Kong.

 

[Green L]

He has plenty of options to do this. If anything, it adds variety instead of him being focused around a single option like pre-patch Luigi and pre-patch Diddy Kong.

This is absurd hypocrisy. Saying pre patch luigi and diddy are linear but bowser AKA up throw the character isn't?

 

[TTTTTsd]

, like increase the hitbox size of klaw

Fun fact! Check the patch data dump thread, it appears that this actually happened!

Do you work for Nintendo? =P

 

[S_B]

Fun fact! Check the patch data dump thread, it appears that this actually happened!

Do you work for Nintendo? =P

Wow, I THOUGHT that might've been the case but I wasn't sure...

That might explain why I was able to do this:

I really don't think this is the end of the world. Bowser still has the same combos, but it makes the character less reliant on just one option all the time and forces him to get creative to end the stock (and he can still do it with up air, it's just tighter now). He has plenty of options to do this. If anything, it adds variety instead of him being focused around a single option like pre-patch Luigi and pre-patch Diddy Kong.

Bowser's game wasn't centralized around the grab because a Bowser player fishing for a grab is hideously predictable. The threat of his grab, however, was enough to force opponents to respect him which helped Bowser land his other options. Once you know what Bowser's options are limited, he's a lot easier to deal with.

This is absurd hypocrisy. Saying pre patch luigi and diddy are linear but bowser AKA up throw the character isn't?

See above.

Diddy and Luigi were linear because they both have projectiles that allow them to open their opponent to the grab, and if the projectile doesn't land, the most effective thing for them to do was throw another friggin' projectile. Ergo, linear.

Bowser doesn't have a tool to open opponents to a grab. All he can do is try to grab, and if you know that Bowser is going to try to grab you, it should be easy to shut him down. Even in 1.1.3, Bowser had to mix it up. The fear of grab was more of a tool than the grab itself.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

I don't even play Bowser and i'm annoyed about the nerf you guys get. So grossly undeserved and it's a bummer such a neat tool for the character got so quickly cut down.

 

[Cronoc]

I find it funny that for Captain Falcon players the nerf to uthrow->uair windows may as well have not happened.

 

[Xandercosm]

I find it funny that for Captain Falcon players the nerf to uthrow->uair windows may as well have not happened.

Wait. Did I not read about that? Falcon never needs to go for U-throw so I guess that doesn't affect him.

 

[constable lemon]

He means that because of Falcon's weight/fall speed the window for up throw-> up air for a kill confirm is still very generous.

 

[Green L]

Diddy and Luigi were linear because they both have projectiles that allow them to open their opponent to the grab, and if the projectile doesn't land, the most effective thing for them to do was throw another friggin' projectile. Ergo, linear.

Fireball to grab never was a reliable set up and never will be. Not to mention there's such things as perfect shield, spotdodge, JAB, reflectors, absorb, etc.

Bowser doesn't have a tool to open opponents to a grab. All he can do is try to grab, and if you know that Bowser is going to try to grab you, it should be easy to shut him down. Even in 1.1.3, Bowser had to mix it up. The fear of grab was more of a tool than the grab itself.

Seeing that bowser's entire meta revolves around up throw and the only reason why he's "good", I call that being really linear and a one trick pony. Pre patch luigi and diddy were capable of combos without grabs. For Bowser, If you don't abuse this one move, up throw, you're a bad bowser main.

 

[S_B]

Fireball to grab never was a reliable set up and never will be.

If you think it wasn't, then you have no idea just how good his fireballs were (which is why they nerfed them).

Luigi was linear because, if his fireball missed, he lost nothing. He RISKED nothing in throwing it in the first place, and he could easily just fire another one.

Not to mention there's such things as perfect shield, spotdodge, JAB, reflectors, absorb, etc.

With his old fireball, the only thing that would've saved you from it is perfect shielding. Spotdodging would allow him to grab, the lag from jabbing it would allow him to grab, a reflector was never going to be fast enough to punish Luigi for it, and before they buffed it, Ness' absorption would probably also allow for the grab.

All of this hinges on the Luigi player knowing the spacing at which all of these options would work, of course, and Diddy is the same way. But the real point is that Luigi and Diddy risk next to nothing when using FB/banana and could simply just try again if it failed. Thus, linear.

Let me put this another way: if a player gets beaten by a Bowser player who does nothing but run at them and try to grab, that player is awful, period (and the Bowser player is pretty awful as well).

Seeing that bowser's entire meta revolves around up throw and the only reason why he's "good", I call that being really linear and a one trick pony. Pre patch luigi and diddy were capable of combos without grabs. For Bowser, If you don't abuse this one move, up throw, you're a bad bowser main.

Bowser's meta revolves around plenty of things that aren't his grab (ledge trumping > Bair, SHADC > special, breaking shields on platforms via baiting, etc.), but the problem with Bowser is that his frame data is objectively awful. His fastest move, grounded fortress, comes out on frame 6 and can be fsmashed by nearly everyone if it gets shielded. Bowser is built to take a LOT of damage, and that's a good thing because he's GONNA be taking a lot of damage.

But even with this consideration, Bowser had no reliable way of confirming kills on any relatively-competent player. There was no reason to fear Bowser because his F/bthrows didn't kill until ~120% on most characters, and that was at the LEDGE. His klaw range was (and still kinda is) incredibly short. All of his other killing options were frame 10 or much, MUCH worse so even though Bowser was a character that was supposed to boast strong kill power, it didn't matter if he could never land the confirm to actually secure the stock.

The result was that players mostly didn't respect Bowser. If they were in his face, it didn't matter if he happened to land a stray grab because all he could get off of it was ~15% with very little chance of KOing.

The threat of a KO confirm off of a grab forces players to approach Bowser differently, and a good Bowser player would (and did) use that to their advantage.

And even with this change, Bowser wasn't exactly screaming up the tier lists. He's 30th, POST buff. By comparison, post nerf Luigi is still 16th.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well you literally have Zangief tier range on your Side-B now based on screenshots so past 100% your window might not be as necessary. The threat of a FRAME 3 COMMAND GRAB from a decent distance is very real too, no?

Also if you CP Umbra Clock Tower assuming it's legal you can probably do some hilarious stuff with the high up platforms and flying slam.

 

[constable lemon]

I don't think the up throw nerf is worth complaining about when it's still an amazing tool for building damage, and I also don't think it's fair to say Bowser's gameplay is or was completely braindead.

How big is Klaw now? I haven't really tested it specifically but I have noticed that I've been getting it more reliably.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't think the up throw nerf is worth complaining about when it's still an amazing tool for building damage, and I also don't think it's fair to say Bowser's gameplay is or was completely braindead.

How big is Klaw now? I haven't really tested it specifically but I have noticed that I've been getting it more reliably.

Slightly bigger. Not by much.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Seeing that bowser's entire meta revolves around up throw and the only reason why he's "good", I call that being really linear and a one trick pony. Pre patch luigi and diddy were capable of combos without grabs. For Bowser, If you don't abuse this one move, up throw, you're a bad bowser main.

You know how somebody comes in to the Luigi boards and says Luigi has nothing but his grab and is super annoying? That's what you're doing. Look anywhere else on the Bowser boards and you'll find our year's worth of tech.

The threat of a FRAME 3 COMMAND GRAB from a decent distance is very real too, no?

Also if you CP Umbra Clock Tower assuming it's legal you can probably do some hilarious stuff with the high up platforms and flying slam.

Frame 8. 17 in the air. It still doesn't reach quite as far as jab 1, but it's extremely close. And every legal stage besides FD allows for reasonably early kills with Flying Slam. We're the best character to make use of rage, and a stock lead can be turned into an instant victory with Bowsercide.

How big is Klaw now? I haven't really tested it specifically but I have noticed that I've been getting it more reliably.

Check the OP.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You know how somebody comes in to the Luigi boards and says Luigi has nothing but his grab and is super annoying? That's what you're doing. Look anywhere else on the Bowser boards and you'll find our year's worth of tech.



Frame 8. 17 in the air. It still doesn't reach quite as far as jab 1, but it's extremely close. And every legal stage besides FD allows for reasonably early kills with Flying Slam. We're the best character to make use of rage, and a stock lead can be turned into an instant victory with Bowsercide.



Check the OP.

My B on the frame data. I am inclined to agree about Side-B though, it scales SUPER well with Rage and with the range increase on the grab part, should be easier to land now. Couple that with the platform stuff and.....well....

If you run them past kill setup %s, you can opt for this instead very, very easily.

 

[constable lemon]

^^ thank you, I didn't see it was updated.

I'm testing around in training mode and jab 1 -> side b feels more reliable. if you just jab and then immediately side b it will whiff, but if you initiate a dash first you will move just slightly forward before using the side b and that's just enough space to grab them with the side B. it's definitely worth looking into now.

seems like you don't even need to dash for some characters. i'm getting on Yoshi without moving at all before side b-ing.

 

[Jerodak]

FRAME 3 COMMAND GRAB

In before it actually becomes frame three next patch, because you said that.

 

[TTTTTsd]

In before it actually becomes frame three next patch, because you said that.

Could you imagine? Literal SPD in Smash Bros rofl.

That'd be kinda god tier.

 

[S_B]

Thus far, Uthrow>Uair hasn't seemed too bad on FG, but these are hardly good tests.

I'll be at a practice session for 5 hours tomorrow so I can test it better then.

 

[Kerthorok]

I think the Side B buff is greatly underrated. I can count on one hand how many times I've missed kills because my klaw just barely missed grabbing them as an out of shield punish. Pointblank whiffing may still be an issue, but the fact that it reliably grabs at range significant improves side b's deadliness.

 

[pitfall356]

Except with the range increase, point-blank whiffing won't happen unless you/them are running directly into you and are about to phase through. The size increase is real. I'm so in the habit of avoiding the move unless I can guarantee it will hit (aka a punish) that I don't tend to throw it out, but now I might have to start again.

 

[Xandercosm]

Think about it this way: the fact that Klaw misses at point blank range doesn't matter. It's like saying Marth's smashes are bad because they are weak at point blank range. All you have to do is have correct spacing.

 

[Kerthorok]

I completely agree. I'm happy side B finally got a range buff. I will definitely make more use of it.

 

[S_B]

Side+B won't whiff until you're running THROUGH the other person (or they through you) and they're technically behind you when you go to use it.

It looks like it's whiffing, but I tested it on Marth and it only misses if I've run most of the way through him and the game is then sliding him back to the correct side of me when I go to klaw.

This is a pretty nice buff and compensates well for the smaller window on Uair...

 

[Greward]

yay side b buff

After playing a lot this weekend, I still get them upthrow upair kill confirms, just wayyyy less times than before. When you have the window open for it to combo, if you get hit and get some rage or hit him with anything else you'll loss the kill confirm, which makes me fish for grab a ****ing lot. Stalling the upthrow (aka using it before going for the kill confirm) does make the % gap higher and is very very very very very recommended.

It's a notable nerf, don't be deceived. It's still great though, and I get more upthrow - bair than before which is cool. Nair starts working before so we don't have to go for the weak 16% uthrow uptilt.

Side B hitbox buff is pretty nice and needed, and so is dash attack (it was too weak for bowser standards, it still is tho imo). Those buffs don't really solve any of bowser actual problems at high level but whatever they are nice.

To the people complaining, welp I can agree that upthrow combos aren't the most healthy way of buffing a character. If they actually wanted to fix bowser they should have helped his options to get back to neutral which are very awful and probably the worst of all chars. Bowser is a character that gets juggled and can't do anything to it (yolo dair tho), he has so much troubles getting back to neutral. Instead, they just made him more scarier by giving him tons of damage and kill power in the form of upthrow combos. Those helped bowser out of the low/bottom tier but we ain't seeing any bowser winning majors so I don't really think he needed a nerf.

 

[Miley]

From the eyes of someone fighting AGAINST Bowser, this is definitely a nerf.

After the last patch when it was buffed. I had to drastically change my playstyle to match in order to respect that buff. Playing the MU the way I used to would get me taking a lot of damage and eating deaths where I never would before. If this is less of an issue and works in smaller windows of percents, then it frees up my playstyle some more instead of having to completely play footsies and projectiles. Allows me to take more risks which allows for great variety in mix ups I can use vs Bowser vs when I just had to completely respect that option and it shut out a lot of the ways I can approach the matchup.

That's just coming from a perspective as someone fighting vs Bowser (especially maining someone like Roy, who is most effective up close. Playing super footies the whole time at the tip of my sword doing drastically less damage and knockback the entire match is a huge deal)

 

[my_T]

so does bowsers KOO-PAH work like DK's ding dong now?

 

[conTAgi0n]

If we are discussing how impactful this change is, and whether it's a nerf, or how much of a nerf, then it makes sense to look at the actual numbers. I'm about a third of the way through updating my uthrow -> uair kill confirm percent thread for patch 1.14, and so far it looks like the percent range at which this combo works now is roughly 30 percent. Of course that varies hugely by character - on floaty guys like Ness and Villager it's more like 20 percent, and on characters like Captain Falcon, DK, or Bayonetta, it's more like 50 percent.

So the effects will be matchup dependent, but even in the worst case, a range of 20 or so percent where the opponent has to avoid grabs at all costs while at high percent against Bowser is pretty valuable. Prior to that, uthrow is still scary to them because of the damage racking potential, and after that, a lot of Bowser's easier to land moves like ftilt and side b become viable kill options.

I'm also very pleased by the side b buff, even if it's not dramatic. That is the sort of change I was always hoping for. The extra damage on dash attack is very nice too. I wouldn't mind it doing still another percent or two more, but a 2 percent boost is already quite nice. Those are great changes.


Speaking to those complaining that Bowser's play revolves around up throw, trust me, I would WAY prefer to have a bunch of great neutral tools than to be dependent on an awesome combo throw. That however would require a whole bunch of Ike-style buffs to range, damage, and frame data, which just doesn't seem likely.

On the bright side, Bowser having a deadly grab game actually enhances all of his other options. Before the up throw change, Bowser's grab game wasn't that scary, so shielding against him was pretty safe. That makes it hard for Bowser to use most of his tools for the neutral and his kill moves effectively. Now the option that beats most of Bowser's moves is also extremely risky against him, plus a character who had serious problems closing out stocks finally has a reliable way to do it. Up throw combos may seem over centralizing, but it levels the playing field and opens up the rest of Bowser's arsenal. Further, Bowser doesn't have a way to coast through the neutral, so his game plan can never be as simple as, "get the grab." That all sounds pretty fair to me.

From the eyes of someone fighting AGAINST Bowser, this is definitely a nerf.

After the last patch when it was buffed. I had to drastically change my playstyle to match in order to respect that buff. Playing the MU the way I used to would get me taking a lot of damage and eating deaths where I never would before. If this is less of an issue and works in smaller windows of percents, then it frees up my playstyle some more instead of having to completely play footsies and projectiles. Allows me to take more risks which allows for great variety in mix ups I can use vs Bowser vs when I just had to completely respect that option and it shut out a lot of the ways I can approach the matchup.

That's just coming from a perspective as someone fighting vs Bowser (especially maining someone like Roy, who is most effective up close. Playing super footies the whole time at the tip of my sword doing drastically less damage and knockback the entire match is a huge deal)

If you are a Roy player, then you should beware that the uthrow uair combo range is still pretty generous for him. I just finished testing it on Roy, and found that it true combos and kills from 92 all the way up to at least 142.

 

[Miley]

He's my main, but was just using it as an example. I don't use Roy in that MU since the last patch. I go w/ Cloud for that one.

 

[conTAgi0n]

He's my main, but was just using it as an example. I don't use Roy in that MU since the last patch. I go w/ Cloud for that one.

The true combo range against Cloud is very similar to that against Roy. Cloud however has such a big advantage against Bowser in neutral that he makes a good counter pick regardless.

 

[S_B]

Out of curiosity, how quickly are people pressing jump to chase into the air?

I've been rolling my thumb onto the jump button then onto attack to perform a FH rising Nair, but for chasing with Uair, do people bother to FH or do you just double tap jump to get up there faster?

 

[conTAgi0n]

Out of curiosity, how quickly are people pressing jump to chase into the air?

I've been rolling my thumb onto the jump button then onto attack to perform a FH rising Nair, but for chasing with Uair, do people bother to FH or do you just double tap jump to get up there faster?

For uthrow -> nair: I also do just a FH rising nair at lower percents. I find it works a lot better. With the patch now, I find that once the percents get more to mid range or higher, a quick double jump starts becoming the more effective option.

For uthrow -> uair: at the lower end of the kill percent range, you can do either full hop or a quick double jump, at least on most characters. Both work fine, but I think the double jump gets you there a little bit quicker. Once you start moving higher up that kill range, the double jump becomes mandatory for getting enough vertical distance. Since the double jump works for the full range, and hitting earlier during the window of opportunity technically seems to kill slightly better, I always double jump for this combo.

 

[S_B]

For uthrow -> nair: I also do just a FH rising nair at lower percents. I find it works a lot better. With the patch now, I find that once the percents get more to mid range or higher, a quick double jump starts becoming the more effective option.

For uthrow -> uair: at the lower end of the kill percent range, you can do either full hop or a quick double jump, at least on most characters. Both work fine, but I think the double jump gets you there a little bit quicker. Once you start moving higher up that kill range, the double jump becomes mandatory for getting enough vertical distance. Since the double jump works for the full range, and hitting earlier during the window of opportunity technically seems to kill slightly better, I always double jump for this combo.

How soon do you double jump in the later % ranges? Do you wait until Bowser rises to the full height of a FH? Half way?

 

[conTAgi0n]

As you get towards the upper limit of those percent ranges, you need pretty much the full height of the FH to catch them. If you jump sooner than that, Bowser won't reach high enough. At the very upper range of that limit, the timing window is very very small. It's hard for me to say if I am jumping at the exact apex of Bowser's FH or slightly before that, because honestly I myself still cannot perform the combo consistently at the upper limits, despite how much practice I've gotten while compiling the data in my thread on the subject. I recommend tinkering around with it yourself, keeping in mind that the second jump is probably later than you think. Maybe try working your way up from the low end of the range, one percentage point at a time.

One thing worth noting is that for at least some characters, uthrow -> fair actually starts KOing before uthrow -> uair reaches its upper limit, and the timing is easier on that combo. That might be worth labbing a little too.

 

[Big Sean]

Any up smash testing yet? Is it possible anymore?

 

[constable lemon]

Any up smash testing yet? Is it possible anymore?

Getting true combos out of up throw still, % changes drastically per character and there are definitely characters it doesn't work on at all.

 

[pitfall356]

However, uthrow usmash is still valuable despite being unguaranteed, as if they airdodge they get hit by the landing hit and fair is guaranteed off of that. If they do nothing, they take the hit. If they jump, you can catch their landing since they have no double jump. Only works at low%, of course.