Bowser and Charizard comparison, and what I find to be an inconsistency in the general consensus.

[Knee Smasher]

From my observation, it appears that according to the general consensus, Bowser is a top tier character while Charizard is low tier at best. As a player with a 78.41% win ratio in For Glory 1-on-1, who mains both Bowser and Charizard in this game and has used both of the aforementioned characters extensively (in Bowser's case, I have been using him ever since the launch of SSBB), this notion confuses me to no end. From my extensive experience using both characters, I find that Charizard is basically Bowser with (in order of importance):

1. A highly reliable, probably the single best KO move in the game, Flare Blitz (seriously, Charizard's Flare Blitz is to this game as Captain Falcon's Knee of Justice was to SSBM). Meanwhile, against a good player, the only moves of Bowser that can KO at a reasonable % that can consistently hit a good player are Fair, Bair and Usmash, all of which are still, from my experience, significantly more difficult to land than Flare Blitz (yes, I am aware that Flare Blitz is probably the single most punishable move in the game on shield, as a blocked Flare Blitz guarantees that Charizard is punished by a dash attack from any character... but still, an easily punished KO move is better than a KO move that cannot consistently hit in the first place)
2. The ability to actually deal with projectile campers, especially on Final Destination and Omega stages. This is because Charizard can use Flare Blitz to punish or at the very least close its distance from characters who sit back and spam projectiles, whereas Bowser, in comparison, has a much more difficult time dealing with projectile campers from my experience, especially Duck Hunt Duo, Robin, and Diddy Kong, as he can neither close his distance from the projectile camper nor outright go through those projectiles anywhere near as easily as Charizard can.
3. A jab that comes out much faster
4. A very consistently safe aerial attack, its Neutral Air, which is also a great method of approaching. Nair to jab is also a solid combo
5. Better recovery in the form of Flare Blitz
6. A faster and longer-ranged grab, giving it one of the best shieldgrabs in the game
7. Far better range in its Down Smash, giving it an easier time punishing rolls
8. A higher dash Speed, making it a better punisher

And what it lacks compared to Bowser are (in order of importance):

1. The lack of Whirling Fortress, meaning it cannot out-of-shield punish opponents behind it (its faster and longer-ranged grab somewhat makes up for this disadvantage in terms of Charizard's overall out-of-shield game though)
2. Its attacks in general don't deal as much damage as Bowser's
3. The lack of Bowsercide
4. A weaker Forward Air which also has an overall significantly worse hitbox than Bowser's
5. A much slower and laggier Back Air

I am convinced, from my extensive experience using both characters that Charizard is a better character than Bowser, despite the general consensus that the latter is a significantly higher-tiered character than the former. As this is a board dedicated to Bowser mains, can someone please explain to me why the general consensus is the way it is despite my observations? I would like to know if I am missing something with either character.

 

[James N.]

Keep in mind Bowser is still far and away the heaviest character, so he can abuse rage mode for a longer time. Also, since his fair and bair are fast killing moves, his offstage game is quite potent, since you don't have to worry about landing lag out there. A good Bowser usually chases an enemy offstage unless it's a character like Jigglypuff who can turn the situation around. Also, Using Bowser Bomb to attack people going for the ledge is more risk-free than ever thanks to the new ledge mechanics. Bowser's Dair is also a good move to psyche people out with thanks to the way it moves up first before slamming down. They're both good characters who are comparable to each other so I'm interested in all the ways they differ.

 

[BSL]

I think the key difference is bowser's weight. It takes so long to kill him.

 

[S_B]

I've just started playing (after realizing there's nothing the Wii U version will really offer me except a better controller), but I feel like one of the reasons Bowser is so much more dangerous is that all of his moves send opponents flying AND when Bowser chases for a Bair, his opponent had BETTER the hell dodge it or they're dead meat. Seriously, even if it DOESN'T KO them, they're not coming back unless they have godly recovery.

That said, the fortress on the ground is just TOO good: it pulls enemies in, deals a fair amount of damage, comes out immediately and it can still KO.

That said, I'm just starting to relearn the Bowz so I can't really call myself knowledgable on the subject, but seriously, aside from disliking his approach options, I see how the new Bowser can be quite a powerhouse...

 

[Anragon]

We have a mad Dropkick of doom instead of a Heabdbutt as a F-smash. This is pretty much the answer to everything you said.

 

[B!squick]

As a player with a 78.41% win ratio in For Glory 1-on-1

1. That ^ explains your first point. Flare Blitz is probably the worst move in the game. It's like Falcon Punch only without armor (I think Flare Blitz doesn't have armor) AND it deals damage to you. I think even PK Pulse has more usability. If there was a way to set it up, sure, but I'm going to hazard a guess that anyone half awake, not encumbered by lag can avoid, dodge, or shield Flare Blitz every time.

2. Are projectiles really laggy enough now to be punished by Flare Blitz? I don't believe it. Which ones?

3. Can Charizard Jab a Bob-omb and not take damage? Let's see... Nope.

4. Approaching with NAir? Wut? I'll take Bowser's BAir over that any day of the week. And the only combo Bower needs is DownB.

5. You mean that move that requires a sweet spot on the ledge to not be punished? I disagree. Especially when I've never had trouble recovering as Bower.

6. The grab being faster is debatable (unless you have frame data backing this up, it looks like it might be faster) and it's most certainly not longer range. Bowser's pivot grab range is way longer and I don't see any difference in regular grab range.

Actually after playing in Training for a bit it's hard to really gauge the difference in range because Charizard leans forward so much and Bowser is larger, but I'm pretty confident Bowser's pivot grab is longer range.

7. DSmash has pretty good horizontal range, but really punishable if you wiff and Bowser has Fortress even if DSmash didn't punish rolls well enough anyway.

8. Dash is a good punisher? Eh? And Bowser has so much knockback he doesn't need a high dash speed. He'd probably be over powered if he could follow-up better.


To add to your points in Bowser's favor, you're forgetting, in addition to what's already been mentioned, Bowser yawns at weak attacks and his arms, legs, and shell are intangible for several of his moves.

 

[meleebrawler]

1. That ^ explains your first point. Flare Blitz is probably the worst move in the game. It's like Falcon Punch only without armor (I think Flare Blitz doesn't have armor) AND it deals damage to you. I think even PK Pulse has more usability. If there was a way to set it up, sure, but I'm going to hazard a guess that anyone half awake, not encumbered by lag can avoid, dodge, or shield Flare Blitz every time.


To add to your points in Bowser's favor, you're forgetting, in addition to what's already been mentioned, Bowser yawns at weak attacks and his arms, legs, and shell are intangible for several of his moves.

Several points about Flare Blitz: it DOES have armor, maybe not very strong but it
does shrug off some weak hits. It's not a move that needs to be set up:
it's a punish move and a recovery, maybe even an edgeguard if you're ballsy.
Two things that Flare Blitz is great at punishing, thanks to it's range, is landings
and weak projectile spam. It's easily punishable if your opponent is not vulnerable, true.

If you want to use this move more liberally, try using the Dragon Rush custom.
No self-damage and not stopping on shield make the move much safer in exchange
for no longer being able to KO reliably.

 

[Knee Smasher]

1. That ^ explains your first point. Flare Blitz is probably the worst move in the game. It's like Falcon Punch only without armor (I think Flare Blitz doesn't have armor) AND it deals damage to you. I think even PK Pulse has more usability. If there was a way to set it up, sure, but I'm going to hazard a guess that anyone half awake, not encumbered by lag can avoid, dodge, or shield Flare Blitz every time.

2. Are projectiles really laggy enough now to be punished by Flare Blitz? I don't believe it. Which ones?

3. Can Charizard Jab a Bob-omb and not take damage? Let's see... Nope.

4. Approaching with NAir? Wut? I'll take Bowser's BAir over that any day of the week. And the only combo Bower needs is DownB.

5. You mean that move that requires a sweet spot on the ledge to not be punished? I disagree. Especially when I've never had trouble recovering as Bower.

6. The grab being faster is debatable (unless you have frame data backing this up, it looks like it might be faster) and it's most certainly not longer range. Bowser's pivot grab range is way longer and I don't see any difference in regular grab range.

Actually after playing in Training for a bit it's hard to really gauge the difference in range because Charizard leans forward so much and Bowser is larger, but I'm pretty confident Bowser's pivot grab is longer range.

7. DSmash has pretty good horizontal range, but really punishable if you wiff and Bowser has Fortress even if DSmash didn't punish rolls well enough anyway.

8. Dash is a good punisher? Eh? And Bowser has so much knockback he doesn't need a high dash speed. He'd probably be over powered if he could follow-up better.


To add to your points in Bowser's favor, you're forgetting, in addition to what's already been mentioned, Bowser yawns at weak attacks and his arms, legs, and shell are intangible for several of his moves.

Everything that I pointed out in the opening post come from my experience in For Glory 1-on-1. Yes, maybe lag messed things up, or maybe I just happened to fight far better players when I used Bowser compared to when I used Charizard, but the fact is, I have been way more successful in that mode with Charizard simply because it is much, much easier to kill with it at around ~100%, simply because none of Bowser's attacks that can KO around that range can hit anywhere near as easily as Flare Blitz can.

Even though I've been using Bowser since the start of SSBB, and only picked up Charizard when I first got SSB4, I nonetheless find Charizard far easier to use, the single biggest reason being the fact that Charizard can KO at ~100% far more reliably than Bowser can. Bowser either has to try to land a Fair, Bair or Usmash at ~100%, or get the opponent up to like 160% in order to finish them with a much more easy-to-hit move like Whirling Fortress, Ftilt, Fthrow or Bthrow.

Flare Blitz (which actually has super armor) cannot be compared to Falcon Punch (which doesn't even have super armor. It's Warlock Punch that has it). Flare Blitz is much faster and above all, has exponentially more range. Try playing For Glory 1-on-1 with Captain Falcon, obligating yourself to use only Falcon Punch as a finisher, and then do the same with Charizard, obligating yourself to use only Flare Blitz as a finisher, and you will see. Everyone I fight in For Glory 1-on-1, even the extremely skilled Japanese players who end up beating me, get hit by Flare Blitz. It's not a move no good player will ever get hit by.

Also, I don't have frame data about Bowser's and Charizard's jabs and grabs, but the fact is, I have very often tried to jab or shieldgrab an opponent with Bowser, only to get jabbed by the opponent before Bowser can executive his move. This does not happen anywhere near as often with Charizard. Also, I have noticed that failing to shieldgrab the opponent as a result of them being too far away happens noticeably more often with Bowser than with Charizard, especially against a good Japanese player's Jigglypuff's aerial attacks from my experience (I fought that same Jigglypuff with both Bowser and Charizard, and very clearly noticed the difference).

Anyway, although I made this topic to argue in Charizard's favor, I will point out a significant observation of mine in Bowser's favor as well (just to not be biased), as I have noticed this only yesterday. I had many 1-on-1 matches on With Friends mode yesterday on the Battlefield stage, using both Bowser and Charizard, and from that experience, I believe that part of what initially made me think Charizard is so much better than Bowser is because For Glory (the mode I play the most) is always on Final Destination or an Omega stage, which significantly favors Charizard more than Bowser, especially against projectile campers. I have noticed that on Battlefield, Bowser and Charizard are far closer in terms of effectiveness, maybe even with Bowser being more effective (not too sure about this, didn't play against projectile spammers).

 

[MrEh]

I just don't see the point in talking about this.

The characters really aren't anything alike except for that they're big bodied characters that breathe fire.

We have a mad Dropkick of doom instead of a Heabdbutt as a F-smash. This is pretty much the answer to everything you said.

Except Charizard's Fsmash is way better then Bowser's. I know this.

 

[Anragon]

I think both are pretty similar. I find Bowsers fmash coming out faster than Charizard though (frame data may deny my opinion). But Charizard seems to have invincibility frames when he swings his head (he shines a little).

Anyway, what Bowser has more than Charizard IMO is a way stronger ground game. We have a better Ftilt, a better Dtilt coupled with a reliable and fast Up-B OoS option. We have better range on pivot grab and our standing grab is enough to catch most spacing mistakes from the opponent.

Besides that, Bowser has intangible hitboxes on his fists, legs and Usmash.I remember that you can hit Charizard's body with a disjointed hitbox except for the wings.

Tell me if i'm wrong but Flare Blitz actually can be stopped by projectiles (I stopped it with Doc's pills once). If not, good campers/spammers will be constantly baiting the special move or be aware of it. It's not THAT good to deal with projectile spamming. It's a high risk, high reward option.
On a side note, Bowser has Though Guy and doesn't care about Megaman Crush Bombs/Leaf Shield, Luigi/Mario Fireballs, etc...

Air game is in Charizard's favor because he has a better offstage game and quicker start-up. Super Armor on Side-B and Down-B allows him to avoid getting juggled too often.

(Might have told a lot of crap here, I just woke up from bed C: )

 

[Spinosaurus]

Tell me if i'm wrong but Flare Blitz actually can be stopped by projectiles (I stopped it with Doc's pills once).

You can stop the start up. The rest of the move has super armour though.

But yeah, Bowser's neutral game is way better imo.

 

[shoff]

Charizard is far better, and has better matchups. Bowser's spinning fortress thing isnt as good as Charizard's up b out of shield, and it kills. Flare blitz is an amazing punisher and some characters can only punish with a dash attack, which isn't that much risk compared to the potential reward. Charizard's fire is far more effective. Bowser's has the wind effect which is nice, but nowhere near as handy as Charizard's.... I dont even think its hot. Bowser has a much harder time killing compared to Charizard as well, which kind of negates the whole weight issue. Bowser is gimped very easily and lacks super armor to get out of tricky situations when in the air. I have 1350 wins and 67 losses in For Glory with Bowser, 95.27 percent, and have been playing ladder matches on gamebattles and nintendodojo recently. Im not the best Bowser in the world, or the best player, but I can tell you Bowser has a ton of bad matchups, especially the top tier characters. He isnt top tier at all. I give him a mid tier, possibly lower. I cant give any matchups that Bowser dominates, even Ganon works Bowser. He has good tools, but Charizard makes em look real bad. Ive found that Bowser's best option in many mathups is his up smash, have to take extra risk, but its saved me a ton.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser's spinning fortress thing isnt as good as Charizard's up b out of shield

That doesn't sound right at all.

 

[Anragon]

Bowser's spinning fortress thing isnt as good as Charizard's up b out of shield, and it kills.

Joke ?

Flare blitz is an amazing punisher and some characters can only punish with a dash attack, which isn't that much risk compared to the potential reward. Charizard's fire is far more effective.

As bowser, if I shield the Flare Blitz I can Fox-trot -> Fsmash as a punish. Or running Usmash.

Charizard's fire is far more effective. Bowser's has the wind effect which is nice, but nowhere near as handy as Charizard's.... I dont even think its hot.

Dude, Bowser's Fire Breath doesn't have any wind effect xD

Bowser is gimped very easily and lacks super armor to get out of tricky situations when in the air.

Boozer has many tools and priority to get back on the stage now. It might be predictable but it's difficult to kill Bowser with gimping.

I can tell you Bowser has a ton of bad matchups, especially the top tier characters. He isnt top tier at all. I give him a mid tier, possibly lower. I cant give any matchups that Bowser dominates, even Ganon works Bowser.

Pure theory. Bowser imo only has a few difficult match-ups (it's not even "bad" it just requires a higher level of knowledge and skill) and can deal with the rest of the roster.
Also I feel like Ganon has much better tools in Smash 4 now, so saying "even Ganon" is kind of useless as an example.

Ive found that Bowser's best option in many mathups is his up smash, have to take extra risk, but its saved me a ton.

F-tilt, Jab, Fire breath, Pivot Grab, Up-OoS, F-air, U-air, B-air ? So many good options outside of U-smash man.

I have 1350 wins and 67 losses in For Glory with Bowser, 95.27 percent, and have been playing ladder matches on gamebattles and nintendodojo recently.

I don't trust For Glory statistics sorry. Never heard about gamebattles or nintendojo either.

 

[Jerodak]

To be honest, I feel like this entire thread could probably be somewhere else. I don't see how it's a benefit to the Bowser boards at all, and I don't see anything that's even related to the metagame which could be of use to someone looking to improve. Maybe this could be moved to the Charizard boards or the general discussion thread?

That aside, I doubt either character is flat out better than the other. However, I will say that Charizard is probably a stronger character offensively while Bowser is stronger defensively. So if you're an offensive player, then Charizard would probably seem like a better character for you to play. On the other hand, someone who is more defensive would more than likely prefer Bowser. At this point, it really seems like a matter of personal preference.

 

[shoff]

And yes, I know we can punish Charizard's flare blitz out of shield, I personally run up and down B as it does more damage and send him up. But that doesnt make it a bad move.

Actually, Bowser's fire does have a wind effect. it pushes without causing the opponent to flinch and can be used to gimp recoveries. Its at the tip, where it seems like its just not doing anything, try it out. Charizard's fire does not have this effect and makes you flinch wherever it hits you.

Bowser is gimped super easy, name a character and Ill give you an example, easy. He has a great recovery though. My only complaint is that it wont auto catch the ledge as fast if he is facing away, kinda sucks.

And bad matchups arent theory. Thats like saying Rosalina is even, or we just dont know enough about the matchup yet. No, it doesnt take forever. It doesnt take years and years to recognize a bad matchup, he has plenty of bad matchups. Ask any pro level players that have played him, since I know my word isnt enough alone.

I use many of those tools when the situation arises, but lets use Sonic for example. Many of those tools are just not great options, but his upsmash is, though risky.

Ganon's tools are basically the same as brawl, aside from a few tweaks. And its obvious that he has the advantage in this matchup. I played Ganon is melee and brawl and I can play the exact same way with him and be effective.


Regardless I think its a good place for this discussion. Why not examine the differences between a character to better understand the matchup and recognize Bowser's weaknesses in terms of this one and others. I think its perfectly logical to say character A is better than character B, because not all are created equally. They all have their unique abilities and such but that doesnt mean they are all on equal footing.

 

[kro_]

1. That ^ explains your first point. Flare Blitz is probably the worst move in the game. It's like Falcon Punch only without armor (I think Flare Blitz doesn't have armor) AND it deals damage to you. I think even PK Pulse has more usability. If there was a way to set it up, sure, but I'm going to hazard a guess that anyone half awake, not encumbered by lag can avoid, dodge, or shield Flare Blitz every time.

2. Are projectiles really laggy enough now to be punished by Flare Blitz? I don't believe it. Which ones?

3. Can Charizard Jab a Bob-omb and not take damage? Let's see... Nope.

4. Approaching with NAir? Wut? I'll take Bowser's BAir over that any day of the week. And the only combo Bower needs is DownB.

5. You mean that move that requires a sweet spot on the ledge to not be punished? I disagree. Especially when I've never had trouble recovering as Bower.

6. The grab being faster is debatable (unless you have frame data backing this up, it looks like it might be faster) and it's most certainly not longer range. Bowser's pivot grab range is way longer and I don't see any difference in regular grab range.

Actually after playing in Training for a bit it's hard to really gauge the difference in range because Charizard leans forward so much and Bowser is larger, but I'm pretty confident Bowser's pivot grab is longer range.

7. DSmash has pretty good horizontal range, but really punishable if you wiff and Bowser has Fortress even if DSmash didn't punish rolls well enough anyway.

8. Dash is a good punisher? Eh? And Bowser has so much knockback he doesn't need a high dash speed. He'd probably be over powered if he could follow-up better.


To add to your points in Bowser's favor, you're forgetting, in addition to what's already been mentioned, Bowser yawns at weak attacks and his arms, legs, and shell are intangible for several of his moves.

Flare Blitz has armor, Falcon Punch does not. Are you sure you're not mixing things up here? Flare Blitz is far from the worst move in the game. That's probably Ganondorf's u-tilt.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Charizard isn't able to survive high amounts of damage like Bowser can, though. Bowser can consistently keep alive above 150%, I don't think Charizard can do that.

 

[B!squick]

Flare Blitz has armor, Falcon Punch does not. Are you sure you're not mixing things up here? Flare Blitz is far from the worst move in the game. That's probably Ganondorf's u-tilt.

Ganon Punch has it. Assumed Flacon Punch did too.

And Flare Blitz only has Heavy Armor. Something Bowser has just standing around, lol (not quite as good though). I'm curious what moves Bowser has that can beat it. Would be funny if all it took was FTilt.

This isn't a match-up discussion though, Just a discussion of match-ups comparatively (I guess). I don't think there's too much difference between the two in that regard, but I do think Bowser has better tools. He lives longer. Has intangibility on hitboxes and smaller hurtboxes for various moves. I really don't think Flare Blitz is enough to put Charizard over the top or on even footing for that matter. And even if Charizard's grab is quicker, as I said, he doesn't have more range.

But hey, the meta is young still. We might be here 6 months from now going, "holy balls, why did we ever think Bowser compared to Charizard?"

 

[kro_]

Ganon Punch has it. Assumed Flacon Punch did too.

And Flare Blitz only has Heavy Armor. Something Bowser has just standing around, lol (not quite as good though). I'm curious what moves Bowser has that can beat it. Would be funny if all it took was FTilt.

This isn't a match-up discussion though, Just a discussion of match-ups comparatively (I guess). I don't think there's too much difference between the two in that regard, but I do think Bowser has better tools. He lives longer. Has intangibility on hitboxes and smaller hurtboxes for various moves. I really don't think Flare Blitz is enough to put Charizard over the top or on even footing for that matter. And even if Charizard's grab is quicker, as I said, he doesn't have more range.

But hey, the meta is young still. We might be here 6 months from now going, "holy balls, why did we ever think Bowser compared to Charizard?"

Warlock Punch is also cancelled if you take enough damage. Heck, if you do it reverse or in the air, you get no armor at all.

 

[Lew Paue]

Charizard is a really low tier charizard i can see him being used in some good competitive matches,

I have definitely Flare Blitz to go through zero suits blaster for a kill,

I also feel that char's f smash is a little under rated, its deceptively fast, has good range, and has the ability to kill across screen pretty early.

I feel both charcters use the rage mechanic quite well as char is heavy with good recovery and bowser just tanks dmg. Since flare blitz has recoil dmg it helps you hit that rage point and can be a nice way put your damage up safely once your past kill damage. (I have literally just spammed it when at 180 percent)

This post is mainly about char strengths, cuz i havent played bowser too much, expect i know koopa's his down air kinda sucks sometimes, would have prefered a meteor or spike

 

[Anragon]

Charizard is a really low tier charizard i can see him in some good competetive matches, i have definatly gone through zero suits blaster for a kill, I also feel that char's f smash is a little under rated, while i dont know if it has invulnerbility its deceptively fast and has the ability to kill across screen a greninja at 85%. also i feel both charcters use the rage mechanic quite well as char is heavy with good recovery and bowser just tanks. Also since flare blitz has recoil it helps you hit that rage and can be a nice way put your damage up once your past kill damage. (i have literally just spammed it when at 180 percent, it also hits charges pretty heard sincedashs shouldnt break armor) This mainly about char strengths, but i havent played bowser too much, but i know hes good, expect his down kinda sucks sometimes

I'm sorry sir but i didn't understand about half of your post xD

 

[Lew Paue]

as a sum, both use rage well(Chars recoil dmghelps), chars fsmash is really good, char has better recovery, but bowser resists knockback better, and char down air spikes effectively while bowsers is punishable

 

[Lew Paue]

Charizard isn't able to survive high amounts of damage like Bowser can, though. Bowser can consistently keep alive above 150%, I don't think Charizard can do that.

Charizard can actually get really high in in damage (I have topped 200%). Fly, Flare Blitz, and rocksmash all have armor, so just counter the kill blow while you both take damage but you recieve no knockback.

 

[B!squick]

his down air is kinda amazing all the times

Fixed that statement for you. And it does spike/meteor. I've played Endless Multi-Man and my patented Spam Double Jump DAir Technique (tm)(c)(r) enough times to notice it. Not that it's really relevant for securing a kill off-stage. Kinda have to commit to the kill there.

But you CAN get a kill off the top from the bounce on-stage though.

 

[Lew Paue]

Fixed that statement for you. And it does spike/meteor. I've played Endless Multi-Man and my patented Spam Double Jump DAir Technique (tm)(c)(r) enough times to notice it. Not that it's really relevant for securing a kill off-stage. Kinda have to commit to the kill there.

But you CAN get a kill off the top from the bounce on-stage though.

Thats pretty cool didn't know, but off stage Char's is far better, and sadly stage techs can sometimes prevent bounce KO's
also imagine if bowser did have a spike like Chars and falcon's
quick question do you think bowser bomb is better to use than dair? seems that way for me.

 

[B!squick]

Aerial Bomb? Never. DAir is probably faster in every way, shape, and form unless you Bomb to a ledge.

 

[Lew Paue]

okay, just wondering, but bombing from ground seems like a good finish, does it combo on the way up like yoshi's?
Also does bomb have a wind box, i know bowsers dair does upon landing

 

[shoff]

I wouldnt say bomb is always bad, it has its uses, I prefer to fall with down air myself, even if its risky... just to let them know I'll do it and to think twice before attacking under me as often. But yea, good point, Charizard also has a useable, and powerful, spike. I wouldnt be surprised if Bowser found himself bottom tier again, or bottom of mid. I cant think of any great matchups in his favor while Charizard does have a few.

 

[S_B]

I wouldnt say bomb is always bad, it has its uses, I prefer to fall with down air myself, even if its risky... just to let them know I'll do it and to think twice before attacking under me as often. But yea, good point, Charizard also has a useable, and powerful, spike. I wouldnt be surprised if Bowser found himself bottom tier again, or bottom of mid. I cant think of any great matchups in his favor while Charizard does have a few.

I seem to eat Ike players for lunch, but I may have just not come up against any good Ikes yet...

I don't know if Bowser will be BOTTOM tier, but I suspect he's not going to go anywhere beyond mid.

 

[B!squick]

GROUNDED Bomb is great. It goes through shields like a sword through an immortal's neck (quite the timely Highlander reference). Aerial Bomb is something that shouldn't be landing, ever. It'd take some pretty hardcore mind games to do that and not get punished.

Think it's possible to avoid the second hitbox of Grounded Bomb like in previous games, but also like in previous games, avoiding it is only possible if you're expecting it and most people don't even know it's avoidable.

And no, it doesn't have a windbox, though one of the custom moves sure does.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

It falls more on the skill of the players. Experienced players will know the weaknesses of the character they play as most often, and will know how to overcome them. Bowser does leave himself painfully wide open when his attacks miss. However, remember that Bowser is extremely tough and can survive a lot of punishment, provided he is not air comboed off the top of the screen or pushed too far out low and horizontally off stage. Bowser players will learn to minimize those no-sell situations.

We Bowser players may severely lack in range and attack cooldown speed, but our devastating power is feared if we know how to wield it. Never mess with the dropkick that can kill at 55%.

 

[MrEh]

Air Bowser Bomb is useful against opponents trying to punish your landings. Other then that, not much use outside of matchup specific things.

 

[Anragon]

Bowser is one of the best chars that can use and abuse rage effect. He may have high cooldown on his moves but when it hits, it's 100% worth (I mean 32412% worth). Every little bit of % means a lot more for Bowser than most other characters.

People seems to be still surprised when I kill them at 60% while they used me as a punching ball for hundreds of damage. Deal with it.

 

[B!squick]

I think we can all agree they're both better than D3 though. Even if the Gordo wasn't glitchy, he doesn't have DThrow chain grabs or Brawl BAir anymore. Also his DTilt pretty silly.

 

[Lew Paue]

I think we can all agree they're both better than D3 though. Even if the Gordo wasn't glitchy, he doesn't have DThrow chain grabs or Brawl BAir anymore. Also his DTilt pretty silly.

D3 is good, but i can agree since he is easily read, and the gordo is a double edged sword

 

[S_B]

GROUNDED Bomb is great. It goes through shields like a sword through an immortal's neck (quite the timely Highlander reference). Aerial Bomb is something that shouldn't be landing, ever. It'd take some pretty hardcore mind games to do that and not get punished.

Think it's possible to avoid the second hitbox of Grounded Bomb like in previous games, but also like in previous games, avoiding it is only possible if you're expecting it and most people don't even know it's avoidable.

And no, it doesn't have a windbox, though one of the custom moves sure does.

It irks me that Bowser has some custom moves that are far and away better than his default ones.

A windbox on his down+B would've made it so opponents had to work harder to punish it. The rushing klaw is also crazy awesome because it gives Bowser a VERY solid approach technique.

Air Bowser Bomb is useful against opponents trying to punish your landings. Other then that, not much use outside of matchup specific things.

Agreed in full.

I still think the bomb should've had SA to it once it's moving (or the same armor that his feet have during the f-smash). It's still the most easily punished move he has and getting hit by it is the fault of whoever was dumb enough to try to chase Bowser into the air and didn't air dodge.

 

[MrEh]

I disagree that Bomb should have super armor, because the move is fine as it is. Giving it armor would reduce the counterplay, which I dislike a lot.

 

[Zigsta]

Am I the only person who thinks Bowser's default moves are totally fine?

Anyways, Bowser and Charizard are fat and breathe fire. And that's it.

 

[MrEh]

Am I the only person who thinks Bowser's default moves are totally fine?

No, you're not.

All of Bowser's default special moves are superior to the custom versions except for Klaw. And even Klaw is debatable or even matchup specific.