Bowser and Charizard comparison, and what I find to be an inconsistency in the general consensus.

[S_B]

No, you're not.

All of Bowser's default special moves are superior to the custom versions except for Klaw. And even Klaw is debatable or even matchup specific.

I dunno. The high-rise fortress allows you to survive Bowsercides...

 

[B!squick]

At the cost of your best OoS option and roll punisher? Even with Dash Klaw, I don't think I'd take that trade.

 

[MrEh]

At the cost of your best OoS option and roll punisher? Even with Dash Klaw, I don't think I'd take that trade.

^this

Relying on suicides is some real fraudulent tactic that will never work at high levels of play. Bowser usually never has the percentage lead anyway, and you'll probably never have the percentage lead if you lose your only real OoS option.

 

[S_B]

Did I really need to add a at the end of that sentence to clarify that it was a joke?

 

[MrEh]

Humor is often lost on the internet.

Especially when it's the first month of a game's release.

 

[S_B]

Especially when it's the first month of a game's release.

Heh, point made.

 

[B!squick]

Internet is serious business, yo. Especially Smash Boards.

 

[Knee Smasher]

Sorry for bumping this topic, but I just want to point out an observation of mine now that I've gained far more experience with Bowser and Charizard than at the time when I made this topic:

If you look at Bowser's and Charizard's matchups against the rest of the characters, there is literally not a single character besides possibly Zero Suit Samus (mainly due to Bowser's ability to punish her dash attack with Whirling Fortress out of shield) against whom Bowser has a better matchup than Charizard. On the other hand, I can name several characters against whom Bowser has a bad matchup, yet Charizard does not struggle with at all: Duck Hunt Duo, Greninja, Sheik, Samus, Pikachu, Mii Gunner. This is especially notable on Final Destination and Omega stages.

 

[B!squick]

I'll give Charizard this: people can't kill him with his own SideB.

Riddle me this, smasher of knees. What intangible hitboxes does Lizardon have? And has this already been discussed? I honestly don't remember anything that was talked about in this topic and I'm too tired to check at the moment.

 

[Knee Smasher]

I don't know anything about hitbox data. I am just speaking from my innumerable experiences using both characters.

 

[B!squick]

Well, to paraphrase, Bowser's arms are made of steel as are the entire lower half of his body during FSmash and his shell during USmash. And if vectoring is gone, Bowser Bomb just got super scary. Here's a quote if you'd like to read more details:

So out of curiosity I wanted to go ahead and confirm exactly what and where Bowser's disjoints are, until I can find something more reliable, my current methods are the Bob-omb because it seems to have the smallest explosion of all of the explosive items, and the bumper item because it's basically just a stationary hitbox that you can space against but i'm not sure how reliable the bumper is, but I imagine that as long as a hurtbox touches it at all, then it will activate.

I also tested animations and stances which weren't attacks, basically this can serve as a sort of makeshift hitbox/hurtbox information till we get something a bit more official.

So far here are my results

Idle stance: The Bob-omb test was a little iffy here because of how bob-oms work and the fact I was unable to have it walk into certain parts of Bowser's body to confirm where the hurtboxes are. However, in a previous grab test I did with some other characters it does appear that the hand which sticks out in front of him, and part of his leg around where the knee is are intangible, this was also confirmed in the bumper test. The tip of his toes, and top half of his head, minus the hair of course, as well as the tip of his nose can be hit though. The beginning of his idle stance is probably where he's the thinnest because he's not shifting forward too much, he'll do two reps of breathing before doing one of two alternate animations at random. To prevent these from showing up, you can just tilt the stick forward so that you trigger the walking animation but don't actually start to move forward within the two breathing reps to reset the animation. It's hard to tell if he sticks out more in the front or the back, but they seem about the same and his turning animation seems to actually make him wider for a few frames which made it difficult to check.

Crouch/Crawl: According to the bumper test, the hand that sticks out, his head, his tail, and the very very top of his shell appear to be intangible. The bob-omb test confirms the first three as well. Basically to hit him, you have to space where the white rim of his shell is if you're spacing horizontally, vertically most of his shell can be hit. It does make him shorter, though not by much and unlike in Brawl, where he actually pulls back a bit, he's now either a bit fatter or just stucks out in the front a little more when he crouches.

Walking: This was a little tricky to test but it's mostly the same as the idle animation except it seems his leg is more susceptible to being hit. The hand, and lower jaw are still intangible and he's slightly taller than he is just standing; I only used the bumper test for this.

Running: His nose is actually intangible, but the green part of his face can be hit, and the hand, as always, is intangible. Did he do some iron palm training or something? Anyway, the fact the nose doesn't get hit is nice, since it sticks way out when he runs. He does appear to be a bit wider while running, but also slightly shorter, or his head is at least. I tried to test the run pivot animation also but all I can tell is that he leans forward during it, not that it'd be used in a match or anything but something that would hit you form behind normally might barely whiff if he's in this animation instead if that makes sense; I only used the Bumper test.

Jump: Bowser's jump squat is BAAAAAAAD, it actually makes him even fatter than his crouch, so if you've ever wondered why you've been getting hit when trying to space your jumps, this is probably the culprit, Bowser's face sticks out in front of him like it's Brawl so the attack, which probably would have whiffed, hits him on the nose instead, his backside sicks out too, but not quite as much. This unfortunately made testing the actual airborne stances a bit harder, but I did it anyway, to the best of my abilities. Just like his other animations, the hand in front of him is not tangible, the back leg seemed to be intangible, as well as his toes, unlike in the idle stance; the rest seem about as expected.

Jab: As expected, both arms are completely intangible. Bowser's face, however, is not and of course it sticks out while he's jabbing. However, as long as his nose didn't activate the bumper, his arms never did, even during the animation when he's drawing them back in after the jab.

Ftilt: The entire arm, completely disjointed, of course, Bowser likes to play fair so he makes sure to stick his nose out as well. During the bumper test, I was actually able to Ftilt from a closer distance when angling it up than when angling it forward thanks to the fact that he looks up while doing it; even the drawback animation for the arm didn't trigger the bumper. Oh, and Bowser does still "fold" himself back just like in Brawl, so you can use that for spacing; this passed both tests.

Dtilt: So Bowser's arms don't stick out much further than his nose here. Fortunately, when mastering his iron palm technique, he learned how to create damaging vacuums with his fists and he uses those here to make up for the difference. The second punch has a bit more range than the first one, which is probably why it's easier to link both hits together than it was in Brawl. The wind slashes appear to be mostly accurate to the attack range, but there's a small bit of it at the tip that is purely visual. Still, the range is pretty good; this passed both tests.

Uptilt: Once again, Bowser doesn't feel comfortable throwing an amazing disjointed hitbox without sticking his nose out a bit. This causes him to be slightly "taller" for a bit while he looks up but the entire arm, is intangible, even when he's picking it up from behind him; this passed both tests.

Dsmash: I've covered this one already, but I'll mention again that there are disjoints on either side, and it even hits low enough to cover the ledge. The disjoint doesn't appear to cover the top of the shell though. There's also a considerable wind-back for the charge animation, and the move itself makes Bowser quite small compared to most of his other animations.

Upsmash: We all know about the wonders of shellguard, there isn't really any intangibility here, but the shellguard negates the effect of the bumper as it activates. The charge animation appears to be lower than his crouch, but only initially, the longer you charge, the more he sticks his butt up in the air, the front half stays pretty low though.

Fsmash: Here's where things get interesting, so after doing both the Bob-omb and Bumper tests with this, I found out that from the moment the hitbox is out, until shortly after he touches the ground, Bowser's entire legs, up to his waist, are completely intangible, and Bowser's nose isn't even sticking out with it this time! His entire Body becomes a hitbox during the attack, but no other parts of him are intangible so the disjoint is only on his legs. Still, this is very amazing considering the sheer range and power behind it! It wasn't really possible to test the charge animation, but he does definately seem to shift his hurtbox, only now he shifts more downwards than away, which could still be useful in certain situations as mentioned before in another post by @ Zigsta . Also, I'd like to credit @Raiden mk-II for pretty much inspiring me to make this post in the first place.

Grab: The hand didn't trigger the bumper or the walking bob-omb during any of the grab states, testing pivot grab on the bumper was made ten times more fun by the fact he gets a little wider by turning and running. Of course, his nose pokes out too, in order to give the opponent something to hit.

Dash attack: This failed both tests, this appears to be the only grounded attack that lacks a disjoint.

Firebreath: ...

Fortress: This has a larger disjoint than down smash, but only at the last hit. Otherwise, the hitbox is exactly where his shell is. Similarly to down smash as well, he's also pretty small during this compared to other animations. I don't know which of the two is smaller, and don't know a way to really test that at all, sorry guys!

Bowser Bomb: The rising hit is disjointed, and I believe it's also transcendent. It can hit from roughly half a battlefield platform away, which is pretty good, just be careful of people flying away from you when using the max or minimum distance. Not sure if the reported removal of vectoring improves this for us at all, perhaps I'll test that out next. I'm not sure about any disjoints on the actual fall, but as always, it seems his hands are intangible as they can overlap a bumper without activating it. However, the landing part of it produces a shockwave with enough range to detonate a bob-omb without the explosion touching Bowser at all, the range on it isn't that great, but it's there, which is nice.

Side-B: Does not set off the bumper, and does not blow up the walking Bob-omb, I did this test on the air and ground versions. Even after the grab is complete, the arm being brought back in does didn't trigger anything. Watch out for his nose, though.

Fair: The arm is completely intangible, but the size of the disjoint relative to his body seems to vary at different parts of the attack, it was kinda tricky spacing the attack so that the bob-omb didn't hit Bowser, and the bob-omb was actually above me when I finally did it; still, a great attack overall.

Bair: Nope.

Nair: Amazingly, it seems like the arms are intangible but the legs are not, the arms don't activate the bumpers but even the tips of his toes do; I didn't bother much with the bob-omb test.

Up air: I actually did the bob-omb test with this one on accident while trying to do the Fair bob-omb test, it can detonate the bob-omb safely, Bowser's head also didn't set-up the bumper, so it appears his horns are intangible. The entire part of the air slash that covers his head seems to mark where his intangibility is.


So, that's a lot of disjointed stuff, if these tests are indeed accurate! Feel free to try these tests out yourselves in training mode if you need a visual aid of any kind or just want to confirm it for yourselves. I'll also answer any questions that come up as best I can, and please let me know if I overlooked something.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

saw this and as a zard main, I had to comment. Sorry for necromancy. I'll kick it off by saying at this stage in the game, Bowser is definitely the superior character, but not for all the reasons you might think.

-As a general rule for heavies, both Bowser and Charizard are not the best in neutral. However Bowser's innate armor helps him approach projectile spammers along with Whirling Fortress, while Charizard doesn't have an easy approach option (Flare Blitz does not cover this. though it CAN eat through projectiles, the move is just too telegraphed to actually be a means to approach and will get you heavily punished.) Bowser also has more platform pressure than Zard with an U-Tilt with a larger angle, an aerial command grab, and a fair that's just straight up a better version of Charizards.

-In disadvantage, Bowser takes the edge for sure. Many of his attacks are disjointed and intangible, much like a sword. This allows Bowser to turn the tides of battle without actually committing because if he gets hit in certain areas he won't get hurt anyways. Charizard's wings share similar traits with this, but only a select few of his moves involve them (like 3 I think.) That said, Bowser is noticeably easier to juggle due to him being bigger and Charizard having multiple jumps.

-Bowser has a lot of punish options that are quicker, safer, and sometimes more damaging than Charizard's. His d-tilt can actually kill, his fair is more damaging, his u-tilt hits a wider area making it more reliable, and his bair is much less punishable than Zards. Though Charizard has a longer grab range and better dash grab, Bowser's pivot grab cannot be ignored in how good it is. He also's got that command grab, so I think Bowser's got the better grab game.

-Charizard's recovery is better than Bowser's, Neither of theirs is good vertically, but Charizard gets the edge because he get two mid air jumps. And although Whirling Fortress is good horizontally, Charizard's Flare Blitz is better. Flare Blitz would be one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game if he didn't hurt himself in the process. And because Charizard gets super armor on both upb and sideb( his whole body gets super armor but his head only has heavy armor) he is harder to gimp.

-I feel like Charizard's off stage game is better. Both are really really good. Bowser's got nasty potential in fair and bair(and bowserciding? Is that still a thing) but the flame pokemon's entire aerial moveset seems dedicated to kill people off stage. Nair defeats opponents with weaker recovery, his dair spikes, has a liberal sweetspot for a meteor, and he gets multiple jumps to space it out. Bowser's bair is good and better than Zard's on stage, but a sweetspotted bair from Charizard offstage means certain death at pretty much any percent(and being offstage, he doesn't have to worry about that gross landing lag) And also, I've never seen many people try this, but if you aim Charizard's Flare Blitz just below the ledge offstage while your opponent is recovering, it reliably stage spikes peeps without a teleport.

-Finally Charizard is better at trading and is capable of killing faster with the right reads. Bowser's bigger and heftier for sure, but Charizard's kit has super armor in all the right places. Bowser can live longer through virtue of his weight, but a good Zard player can choose to straight up ignore death by super armoring through a would be kill move and in turn kill the opponent instead. Rage goes really well with Charizard. I can't tell you how many times I've been at kill percent, read a kill move, f-smashed through it (f-smash has invincibility, not just super armor) and took their stock at around 60%.


But at the end of the day, I think Bowser is the better character. And if you look at these forums compared the Zard forums I think you'll find out why. The Bowser forum is sprawling with new ideas and those ideas are brought to life through a large and dedicated community. Zard's is noticeably lacking. The community is dedicated but there's so few.

Tl;dr Bowser's better cause he's much more developed than Charizard. Much much much more developed. You guys are already figuring out practical applications for your AT's. We don't even HAVE an AT. (well, sliding rock smash but it turns out you can do that with just about any down b) Charizard's lag of usage thus development stems from his placing in early tiers lists as a bottom character (which everyone knows is ridiculous, yet it still has an effect on the community at large) and Charizard being perceived as a lesser version of Bowser. The fact of the matter is, they're completely different. different strengths, weaknesses, and completely different play styles.

Until people finally figure out that Charizard and Bowser are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHARACTERS, and tiers lists this early in the game DON'T MEAN ANYTHING, we'll never truly figure out who the better character is. Simple as that. Smooth-Like, out. *drops mic*

 

[BSL]

Apologizing for necro doesn't make it ok

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Apologizing for necro doesn't make it ok

...oh. Well my bad, I thought it was still kinda relevant, but I guess not... What if I apologize twice and swear I'll never dabble in necromancy again?

 

[Anragon]

Quite a nice post still man, said a lot of things I thought the same

 

[S_B]

Apologizing for necro doesn't make it ok

Better to necro than make a new thread.

And seriously, it's not like this discussion has "ended" or anything of the sort.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I actually play them both as well as other characters for match up reasons.

Since the game is still new, I'm not concluding match ups but for projectile users and combo heavies I usually rely on Zard since FB pretty much smash through any projectile that is not a Charge Shot and Rock Smash's super armor is so lenient super offensive characters fall victim to it. That's not to say Bowser can't deal with projectiles, though.

Flamethrower.

I'm the only Bowser or Zard I see use it. Duck Hunt and Mega Man can't deal with fire because all of their moves are destroyed by the fire except Mega Mans forward smash. It can deal massive damage, like 12 or something, and it forces them to either jump or roll/move back. The recovery on fire for both characters is low enough that you can remain on offense unlike in melee or brawl. Thats one way they are similar.

Imo, Bowser is more of a bait and wait, landing lag punisher, offstage killer character while Charizard is a spacing, offensively defensive, opportunist punisher, guaranteed type character.

 

[Zigsta]

Don't worry, you're not the only Bowser who uses Firebreath. In fact, literally every Bowser main I know of on these boards uses it. I personally don't use it a ton against DH or MM because I prefer shielding and jabbing, but it's definitely a nice mixup.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

The only comparison here is they both breathe fire and they are both dragons.

Other than that, Charizard thinks Bowser is Blastoise and calls him Blastoise.