Bowser 1.0.8 changes

[Corgian]

Has anyone noticed anything? Let's list any changes here, so we can be clear and have a discussion that doesn't swamp other threads.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Some characters have indeed seen changes with the patch, including Marth, Ike, and Falco from what I seen people confirm this morning. I'm rolling with an unpatched Wii U version and a patched 3DS version, so I'll help with a reference on post and pre-patch confirmations.

I didn't go all out yet in testing things that I suspect might have been tweaked. Bowser's Flying Slam grab can still whiff at close range out of a run, damage values seem intact, Jab 1's iasa seems the same. No idea if Bowserciding was tweaked because I stupidly chose my Wii U version to be pre-patch rather than the other way around.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Bowser's UTilt hit box now extends in front of him. I can now stand in front of Olimar and hit with UTilt. It will even hit people just lying on the ground.

Confirmation bias: I swear UTilt ends faster and deals only 9%. I could have sworn it was slower and did 1% more damage.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So utilt might be fixed?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's UTilt hit box now extends in front of him. I can now stand in front of Olimar and hit with UTilt. It will even hit people just lying on the ground.

Confirmation bias: I swear UTilt ends faster and deals only 9%. I could have sworn it was slower and did 1% more damage.

Good finds with Utilt. It used to do 10%, does 9 now. Used to whiff on Olimar when he was in front of Bowser, but now starts up much lower to hit Olimar. As for the speed, it is visibly faster, yes. As for how, I dunno. Can't count frames. My own conjecture is that it's a slightly faster move to come out, but it's easy to see Bowser's entire animation after swinging is sped up so that he can move quicker after using it.

 

[Corgian]

Well, this is beautiful. The only other thing I could have asked for was a buff to his nair but this is great.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I'm actually a little busy right now. Could someone test if UTilt hits people at the ledge now?

 

[Big Sean]

This could b a game changer. When people rush into I tend to do a safe jab 1. Unfortunately that move gets beat out by people who short hop attack and just roll behind you. It's sucks to get hard punished for jabbing 1 time. Imagine a move, that's intangible, and can cover:

* dash attack
* dash grab
* short hop aerials
* dashing rolls

Welcome to the new utilt

I'm actually a little busy right now. Could someone test if UTilt hits people at the ledge now?

Just checked and it doesn't

 

[Corgian]

Well, what frame does up-tilt come out on? If its slower than jab AND f-tilt, like it used to be its still not the best walling option despite this massive improvement.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Corgian I noted no change for the start-up. Training mode 1/4 (hold L) still puts the first active frame at frame 12. More people cross-referencing would be great, though.

 

[Big Sean]

I also noticed that it kills at ~140%. What did the old utilt kill at?

 

[Corgian]

I'm actually a little busy right now. Could someone test if UTilt hits people at the ledge now?

It both can and can't poke someone at ledge both facing towards and away from ledge. Characters that have their heads poking over the ledge such as charizard are hit by the up-tilt, while characters such as gdorf that only have their fingers on the ledge are not.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I also noticed that it kills at ~140%. What did the old utilt kill at?

Pre-patch Wii U FD has Mario dying at 132 with no DI, and 135 is when the lightning effect showed up.

The reason for the reduction in killing power is most certainly the damage reduction, since Smash 4's knockback growth formula incorporates damage.

Update
I'm hearing that special moves that could be used to ledge cancel don't do that in this update. You know, how Bowser could run at a ledge and Side B before he reaches it to neutral fall. I can't do it on my patched 3DS, nor with any other characters that have specials that work the same way. I know this is technically an engine change, but I'd say it's a big deal for Bowser to lose the "slower but easier" ledgetrump method.

 

[Hitman JT]

I'll wait for senpai Aero to confirm a frame data change. But still the fact that it hits in front of him now is a godsend.

 

[Cronoc]

Just cause it hasn't been mentioned, reverse aerial fortress to the ledge still doesn't snap until the rising animation finishes, yes? Don't have access to my Wii U right now...

 

[awesome13579]

Checking between both versions, UpTilt has a lot less lag, it's now about as fast as Link's UpTilt. I can confirm but somebody else confirm this too.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Will look into this today

Or now.

HELLO EVERYONE

IT'S ME

LETS TALK ABOUT BOWSER UTILT

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser

PLEASE NOTICE THE OLD STATS

THE NEW STATS ARE:

9% Base Damage (From 10%)
FAF 41 (From 51)
Hit frames: 11-16 (From 12-16)

I will update the site when I get around to it.

FOR REFERENCE, HERE'S WHAT FRAME 11 LOOKS LIKE:

If you notice any other moveset changes that may need testing, PLEASE ASK ME. But if you find something that ends up being placebo, I may hurt you.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

That freaky limb movement explains why you can scoop low targets. Besides that added frame, The rest of the move seems to be the same in terms of the range covered.

Now that the move has a decent FAF, I have to learn to use it. Bowser can suddenly juggle people without the hardest of punishes on whiff or block.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It was always like that. When I was doing frame data for Bowser, I looked at this move and said to myself:

"Why doesn't this hit on frame 11? It makes no sense for it not to."

I think it was just an oversight that only just now got fixed.

It's still not a good move however.

 

[Odaroloc]

Im glad they fixed utilt. It wasn't a major move I had used, but I had the movements down to where I would just pivot and then utilt to hit the target behind me. Utilt doesn't really lead into other attacks, but it's a great mixup option, and now that we can do it while facing our opponent, they have even more to fear from the Koopa King.

Along with this, Im finding that D-tilt does 25% if both hits connect. I was sure it did 28% before. Can someone confirm or deny this?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Im glad they fixed utilt. It wasn't a major move I had used, but I had the movements down to where I would just pivot and then utilt to hit the target behind me. Utilt doesn't really lead into other attacks, but it's a great mixup option, and now that we can do it while facing our opponent, they have even more to fear from the Koopa King.

Along with this, Im finding that D-tilt does 25% if both hits connect. I was sure it did 28% before. Can someone confirm or deny this?

Bowser's Dtilt always did 25%. First swipe is 14%, second swipe is 11%.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dtilt does 25% in training mode, 26.25% in an actual battle.

 

[Big Sean]

I'm not sure if any of these are true combos but I'm finding that a lot of stuff links for utilt at 0%

* fortress
* jab
* ftilt
* down smash
* bowser bomb
* klaw

Even if they aren't true combos, it could probably lead to an air dodge read followed by a bowser bomb and possibly an fsmash.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Absolutely, I think this new Utilt could get us looking at our options a bit differently. After all, we never really had a juggle move with Bowser besides this and Usmash. It's a move with fantastic range, often making it our one potential move to combo out of a Dash Slash hit confirm. And is generally better than Usmash when waveslashing under and around your opponent. Plus, like our other tilrs, Bowser's arm is intangible when active.

Of course, it's not a buff that's suddenly going to trivialize MUs for us.

Checked out Bowser's customs to see if there were any hidden changes there. They seem to be as janky as ever. Fire Shot still isn't good. Waveslashing is still intact. And the Flying Fortress still cannot Fortress Boost for some reason.

 

[pitfall356]

I was messing around with Dash Slash and I thought for some reason it covered less space. I'm probably just seeing things.
Similarly, is it just me or does Bowser Bomb have a new flashy landing? I only have access to 3DS but it looks like they added a visual shockwave to his landing.

I checked Tough Guy to see if it got anything. No changes found. Crouch armor still exists but there's still no crawling armor - tested via Falco's laser. That said, happy hunting to everyone.

 

[MrEh]

I was born to see this change.

EDIT: Yeah Utilt is freaking huge now.

 

[S_B]

Makes me wish tap to jump didn't make up+b out of shield so much easier...

Maybe time to change my c-stick to tilts...

 

[x45x]

I haven't found any changes myself (other than up tilt). His pivot throw is still amazing, everything else feels the same so far. And after running a bunch of sets last night I didn't notice a change in KBG or BKB. I'm happy even for just the quality of life buff. I loved using jab and ftilt out of run on him, but now I have a reason to consider up tilt out of run, which cover a lot of option people consider when you run at their face as Bowser =D.

 

[Hitman JT]

Makes me wish tap to jump didn't make up+b out of shield so much easier...

Maybe time to change my c-stick to tilts...

Set a rarely used shoulder button to jump. Soblem prolved.

 

[-Kagato-]

Bowsercide is still stage-dependent.

Also, here's the results for the new stages:

Dreamland 64 - Double KO
Dreamland 64 Omega - Double KO
Suzaku Castle - Double KO
Suzaku Castle Omega - Double KO
Miiverse - Bowser dies first
Miiverse Omega - Double KO

 

[KuroganeHammer]

so I was playing some bowser last night and I don't think anything else has been changed other than the little buff to utilt.

 

[Cassius.]

Bowsercide is still stage-dependent.

Also, here's the results for the new stages:

Dreamland 64 - Double KO
Dreamland 64 Omega - Double KO
Suzaku Castle - Double KO
Suzaku Castle Omega - Double KO
Miiverse - Bowser dies first
Miiverse Omega - Double KO

I died first on DL64 when I tried to Bowsercide Olimar. Something's not right.

 

[Hitman JT]

Yeah Bowserciding hasn't had consistent results for me on any stage for a while.

 

[B!squick]

So Bowser's arm has a second joint? I always knew the Koopa King had some Long Arm Tribe in his family tree.

 

[S_B]

Set a rarely used shoulder button to jump. Soblem prolved.

Yeah, I've been seriously considering changing up my control setup, but I'm just not sure how I want to go about it just yet.

I've moved off of using shoulder buttons on the GC controller for shielding because I want a digital shield.

The other issue is that the GC controller I have definitely registers u-smash when the stick doesn't actually hit the top of the rim, which I thought was the differentiation between a smash and a tilt...

But in any case, how is the new u-tilt treating people? Any one having an easier time because of it?

 

[Corgian]

Yeah, I've been seriously considering changing up my control setup, but I'm just not sure how I want to go about it just yet.

C-stick for tilts is extremely useful as you use Bowser's tilts way more than his smash attacks, and it's easier to c-stick certain moves with mobility. Dash Slash really loves c-stick tilts.
Your lesser used bumper(?) for shield is excellent for jump-cancelling and doing moves OoS
X to grab because of your lesser used bumper to jump allows you to use jump cancelled grabs easier, and it also makes pivot grabs easier too for some reason (this last part is anecdotal).

The other issue is that the GC controller I have definitely registers u-smash when the stick doesn't actually hit the top of the rim, which I thought was the differentiation between a smash and a tilt...

The difference between a smash and a tilt is how soon the A-button is pressed when the control stick is moved into position. If you do it at the same time, its a smash attack. If you do it one at a time, its a tilt.

But in any case, how is the new u-tilt treating people? Any one having an easier time because of it?

The new up-tilt is so beautiful under platform thanks to its speed. There aren't any true combos from it, but at low-percents you combo the back side of up-tilt into jab/filt, OR you can do a dash grab, pummel, down-throw, fair. It's really nice, but none of it is a true combo.

 

[S_B]

The difference between a smash and a tilt is how soon the A-button is pressed when the control stick is moved into position. If you do it at the same time, its a smash attack. If you do it one at a time, its a tilt..

It also JUMPS without hitting the top of the analogue range, which seems odd because "Tap to Jump" should hypothetically only jump when a tap happens. :\

 

[Uncle]

It's still not a good move however.

You really think so? Utilt was below average before, but now it's solid. Hitting little guys in front of me and having a whopping ten frames shaved off the end is no joke. I'm already getting better pressure and mixup results with it.

 

[Corgian]

It also JUMPS without hitting the top of the analogue range, which seems odd because "Tap to Jump" should hypothetically only jump when a tap happens. :\

Oh, you have tap-jump on? Well that's a different thing altogether. From experience, you can move your control stick to the top position after inputting a jab and it won't register a jump, and then you can do an up-tilt. Unless you're a melee player and as such are used to up-tilts with tap jump on, I'd turn them off.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You really think so? Utilt was below average before, but now it's solid. Hitting little guys in front of me and having a whopping ten frames shaved off the end is no joke. I'm already getting better pressure and mixup results with it.

I just can't think of any applicable situations where jab just isn't better (aside from an aerial opponent coming down).

Idk I'm not some Bowser master, but every time I used it I got punished.

Also I gotta do the FAF for Bomb and Flying Slam. I keep forgetting.