Best / Worst Matchups for Captain Falcon?

[DarkStarStorm]

I think I trust Fatality more on the subject, but that's just mad bias :T

Mine is based on study.

 

[GeZ]

But Fatality plays at a super high level. I'm placing faith in experience over study, as I am wont to do. Sorry :s

 

[-Fatality-]

In all fairness, the Zelda players around here are pretty average, and so me 4-stocking them doesn't really mean that much. But my matchup notes are based on looking at the best things Zelda has against us, comparing the best we have against her, and then weighing the two against each other while also factoring in the nature of the neutral game. I'm still of the opinion that this matchup is favorable for Falcon, but am open to being proven otherwise.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

In all fairness, the Zelda players around here are pretty average, and so me 4-stocking them doesn't really mean that much. But my matchup notes are based on looking at the best things Zelda has against us, comparing the best we have against her, and then weighing the two against each other while also factoring in the nature of the neutral game. I'm still of the opinion that this matchup is favorable for Falcon, but am open to being proven otherwise.

Zhime vs. Mango
I know that Scorpion Master wasn't super well versed in the MU, but he did most of what you suggested Falcons do and he still lost. The thing is that he's a very horizontal character, and the lightning kicks are super effective against them. Zelda does not f-air that well against characters that can keep her above them, Falcon is not one of those characters.
Also what do you think this means for us?
http://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/detail/vyWpoM6CBIe6FjW8NIY7bvzOrgBURhzw

 

[-Fatality-]

imo, Mango was playing that matchup terrible. He kept overextending with his double jump above Zelda, he tried to force way too many approaches, he had several completely reckless edgeguard attempts and he just displayed a complete lack of patience. He still did ok just because his punishes/combos were good, but I don't think that video is really a good example of the matchup from either perspective. I think videos of 2 high quality players both well-versed in the matchup going at it would make much better evidence for the matchup being one way, or the other, than anything that's been proposed yet in this thread.
Also, general matchup rule, whoever wins the neutral game in a matchup, is almost always the favored character.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

imo, Mango was playing that matchup terrible. He kept overextending with his double jump above Zelda, he tried to force way too many approaches, he had several completely reckless edgeguard attempts and he just displayed a complete lack of patience. He still did ok just because his punishes/combos were good, but I don't think that video is really a good example of the matchup from either perspective. I think videos of 2 high quality players both well-versed in the matchup going at it would make much better evidence for the matchup being one way, or the other, than anything that's been proposed yet in this thread.
Also, general matchup rule, whoever wins the neutral game in a matchup, is almost always the favored character.

I'm not basing my entire opinion on the video, but there can be things learned from it. Falcon can't approach when Zelda has moves that convert into 50% each time. Knee is defeated by Lightning Kicks, Falcon Kick is easily shield grabbed, grab is thwarted by Nayru's Love, and even if he baits her into getting the grab, unless she's at Kill Percent, Nayru will stop the knee. Granted, he CAN combo her with u-air, but it's extremely hard for him to get into that situation.

 

[-Fatality-]

They both definitely have a lot of good things they can do to each other, now looking for vids of Strawhat or Hax playing a good Zelda. This matchup interests me, can't hurt to delve more deeply into it.

 

[-Fatality-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7prFyCLOIc
Strawhat vs Blondie
Old match, and I don't know how good Blondie is, but this match more accurately reflects how I think a Falcon should approach this matchup, just have to stick it out, and be endlessly patient.

 

[T-Murder]

This may have a already said this in a previous post but i don't have time to read all the previous post. Wolf vs. Captain falcon is an awful matchup!!! This is true for all spacies but i feel especially for wolf because he has a larger shine. Especially when the wolf player is really experienced. U can get wave shine juggled for days.

 

[GeZ]

Strawhat is definitely the player to watch to get a good grasp of how Falcon should handle matchups. He's probably my favorite P:M falcon.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'll watch it tomorrow, I'm uploading now so the Internet is to slow to watch a video.
@ GeZ You're saying I don't play high level?
Also, just so you guys know: The same person who voices Captain Falcon also voiced Vegeta.

 

[GeZ]

I'll watch it tomorrow, I'm uploading now so the Internet is to slow to watch a video.
@ GeZ You're saying I don't play high level?
Also, just so you guys know: The same person who voices Captain Falcon also voiced Vegeta.

I wasn't necessarily implying that, but honestly, yes, I doubt you play at a high level. But that's not knocking you or anything, I just don't think most people on these forums play at a high level, since that ****'s hard, and laborious, and requires a lot of practice and dedication. It's not a pointed comment as much as a casual statement.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I wasn't necessarily implying that, but honestly, yes, I doubt you play at a high level. But that's not knocking you or anything, I just don't think most people on these forums play at a high level, since that ****'s hard, and laborious, and requires a lot of practice and dedication. It's not a pointed comment as much as a casual statement.

You might not want to throw statements like that out there. I know that you're not trying to offend, but it came out like that.
And I actually do play high level. I practice nearly every day. Not play, train. My Zelda and Sheik are pretty high level, and they get better by the day. I've had people like Zhime, ShadowGanon, and WhiteLightnin to play against. And while you know Zhime, I doubt you know the other two. Did you watch Ken's stream yesterday? Well ShadowGanon was the one who got a quadruple turnaround Warlock Punch in on one of Ken's high level friends, his mindgames are immaculate. WhiteLightnin is only slightly worse than Zhime and is a combo-based Zelda. I can fight with the best of them. So please don't just throw out statements like that without even knowing about who your talking about. I know your intentions weren't bad, but it was offensive nonetheless.

 

[yohoos]

Also, just so you guys know: The same person who voices Captain Falcon also voiced Vegeta.

Wait WHAT? Are you talking about F-zero show/game or Smash Games?

 

[DMG]

Roy MK Zelda etc

I disagree with your assessment on Roy and MK. Roy actually has a nastier combo game on Falcon than Marth, because he has truer follow ups at low % and converts those hits into stronger blows. It's real easy to chain Dtilt into whatever, or a quick edgeguard after a Fsmash at 30%. His buffed Neutral B is no joke for stopping Falcon's recovery, you will die lol. Dtilt --> Fsmash --> Neutral B edgeguard is a harsh reality to face.


Roy is worse overall in neutral, and has a better combo/kill weight than Marth, but he's absolutely brutal from landing almost any standard hit and he got buffs from Melee that actually impact this MU in his own favor (Side B, Neutral B, new Ftilt). It's a pretty evenish MU, and I'm inclined to agree with Sethlon (AKA God playing Roy) on most of his opinions/thoughts of the MU. Falcon is one of Roy's easier top/high tier MU's


MK does not fall behind in the punish game imo. His Dthrow locks Falcon down into a tech chase, which is very bad since he's built like Sheik to tech chase people down. Edgeguarding? He's got a few solid options. MK sometimes has an awkward time landing launchers, but it's quite viable for him to land Utilt and Usmash in this MU due to how short he is. Once those do land, and you have some damage tacked on, he has pretty simple combos. He's certainly not bad at comboing a character as prone as Falcon.


Aerial approaches against MK have to be delayed because of his low height (which is very bad, gives the opponent more time to react obv), and grounded approaches still have his range/speed to deal with. Not to mention he's a fast character in his own right, who can play the DD/Bait game alongside you. If you're reliably forcing MK to eat hits in neutral, or find ways in, he's basically messing up. The same can't be said for his side: if MK finds ways to hit you or to get in, there's not much defensively you can do to shrug off those attempts or play around it. What are you going to use, the DD/run speed that he's very similar in? The range you don't have/get outclassed in? The speed and frame data he owns?


MK doesn't own Neutral vs Falcon, but he definitely outclasses him by more than a few points. He gets to use the range and attack speed you wish you had, and due to having those traits he doesn't have to be as precise as Falcon does when trying to get past those tools. I consider the MU bad or frustrating enough, that I switch over to Marth to body the MK's who have a clue on what to do. I get much better tools to face MK once I go Marth, without losing too much on DD/baiting or ridiculously nasty throw combos.

 

[GeZ]

Edit:

Being salty is dumb. This post was dumb. It's gone now.

 

[-Fatality-]

I disagree with your assessment on Roy and MK. Roy actually has a nastier combo game on Falcon than Marth, because he has truer follow ups at low % and converts those hits into stronger blows. It's real easy to chain Dtilt into whatever, or a quick edgeguard after a Fsmash at 30%. His buffed Neutral B is no joke for stopping Falcon's recovery, you will die lol. Dtilt --> Fsmash --> Neutral B edgeguard is a harsh reality to face.


Roy is worse overall in neutral, and has a better combo/kill weight than Marth, but he's absolutely brutal from landing almost any standard hit and he got buffs from Melee that actually impact this MU in his own favor (Side B, Neutral B, new Ftilt). It's a pretty evenish MU, and I'm inclined to agree with Sethlon (AKA God playing Roy) on most of his opinions/thoughts of the MU. Falcon is one of Roy's easier top/high tier MU's


MK does not fall behind in the punish game imo. His Dthrow locks Falcon down into a tech chase, which is very bad since he's built like Sheik to tech chase people down. Edgeguarding? He's got a few solid options. MK sometimes has an awkward time landing launchers, but it's quite viable for him to land Utilt and Usmash in this MU due to how short he is. Once those do land, and you have some damage tacked on, he has pretty simple combos. He's certainly not bad at comboing a character as prone as Falcon.


Aerial approaches against MK have to be delayed because of his low height (which is very bad, gives the opponent more time to react obv), and grounded approaches still have his range/speed to deal with. Not to mention he's a fast character in his own right, who can play the DD/Bait game alongside you. If you're reliably forcing MK to eat hits in neutral, or find ways in, he's basically messing up. The same can't be said for his side: if MK finds ways to hit you or to get in, there's not much defensively you can do to shrug off those attempts or play around it. What are you going to use, the DD/run speed that he's very similar in? The range you don't have/get outclassed in? The speed and frame data he owns?


MK doesn't own Neutral vs Falcon, but he definitely outclasses him by more than a few points. He gets to use the range and attack speed you wish you had, and due to having those traits he doesn't have to be as precise as Falcon does when trying to get past those tools. I consider the MU bad or frustrating enough, that I switch over to Marth to body the MK's who have a clue on what to do. I get much better tools to face MK once I go Marth, without losing too much on DD/baiting or ridiculously nasty throw combos.

Those are all good points, I haven't actually played a high level Roy, so most of my opinion of the matchup was just guess work. As for MK, I've played 2 solid MKs, and I definitely think it's an unfavorable MU for Falcon, as to how much that is remains to be seen, need more data. What I usually do against MKs, in a nutshell, is to play a campy, defensive zoning game, and try to bait out approaches to shield grab. I also play Ivysaur, but I want to further learn this matchup before I decide to just play her instead. Come to think of it, it seems like pretty much all of Falcon's negative matchups revolve around "Don't get hit".

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I have no frame of reference to tell how well I expect you to play.

Personally, you don't know me personally or have seen me well to know how I play. M2K is not very articulate, that doesn't make him bad at the game. It just means that he knows what he means he just doesn't know the best way to have YOU know what he means. Just because I don't cite frame data from memory (though I do know a lot) doesn't mean that I'm a casual player, it just means that I choose to look at the whole of the character, not the fact that there is a 1% differential between a sour and sweetspotted f-tilt. Also I don't MAIN Falcon, I'm simply making a chart about his MUs, so I'm learning about him. Go to the Zelda forums and you'll see my good side. If Mango doesn't know how to play as Marth or Ganon, that doesn't make him a low level player, it just means he doesn't play those characters.
So it is true, you do not know me. That comment wasn't nonsense, it just was truth misunderstood. And I was warning you that others might not be as understanding as I am.
I'm not offended, I'm just saying that you shouldn't always read a book by its color.

But for MUs, I'm on Charizard, Diddy, and Donkey.
@ -Fatality- Blondie is a horrible Zelda, I play better than that on my worst days.

 

[GeZ]

Hey this is a co-worker of Gez looking at his pc while he's busy. If you don't believe me, that's fine I just wanted to clarify something between the two of you so that you actually understand what the both of you are arguing about.
When Gez says that the way you speak is indicative of your skill at the game, he is talking about you're supposed knowledge of the meta-game. Even though you have stated that you do not main Falcon, you're confidence in speaking of his MU's seems to be counterintuitive to your message.
Gez understands fully well that he hasn't seen your mechanical skill at the game; you could be an amazing Falcon player in terms of executing combos or making frame-links. What (I think) he is trying to say is that you haven't exhibited any deeper understanding of the MU's that Falcon has to deal with.

Also

I'm just saying that you shouldn't always read a book by its color.

 

[-Fatality-]

@ -Fatality- Blondie is a horrible Zelda, I play better than that on my worst days.

Good to know, he got bodied pretty hard.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

Hello Falcon boards. I'm Kman. I'm mainly a wi-fi player from Tennessee who also frequents offline tourneys when I can. I don't know how much validity you all give to online players, but I have experience playing against many good P:M players online (Zhime, Strong Bad, Frozen, Gallo, Nazo, etc.) and offline (KOKingpin, Reflex, Pikachad) etc. and I feel like I'm qualified to, at the very least, talk about certain MUs in this game without making it seem like I'm talking out of my ass. The only recent video I have of myself is me getting cheesed by a P:M DK at Tipped Off 9, who I think is ranked in Georgia for Melee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpwfdKrffhQ

I went to Kumite in Tennessee which was more recent, but Smash Studios seems to have deleted the singles pools matches from their Twitch channel for some reason and only top 8 was saved. I'll be at a tourney that SS is going to stream later in the afternoon today, maybe you can see me there? Anyway...

----------------------------------------------------------------​

Back in 2.6, I would have said that Ivysaur was one of Falcon's worst MUs due to her not having to commit to anything with her extremely safe, disjoined aerials, eazy auto-shield pressure with razor leaf, superb gimp game, her freaking solar shine, and the relative difficulty in edgeguarding her. Now, with her being much less ridiculous in 3.0, she's much more manageable to play against and she does not destroy Falcon as hard anymore. As for his worst MU now, I don't know. I've not run into an MU in 3.0 where I felt there was nothing I could do yet (except spacies because **** spacies). Though I think I still need more practice in the Falcon/Zelda MU, which I'd be happy to give my current thoughts on if asked.

However, there is something that is bothering me immensely. A lot of you have claimed that Diddy is one of Falcon's worst MUs. And while it may seem that way on paper, I believe that a lot of you feel this way because you're all playing the MU incorrectly in practice. Because I don't know how else you could view the MU as one of his worst. I've played many, if not all of the top Diddys before as Falcon: Disqo numerous times online and offline at Apex 2014, GuruKid at Apex, and AbstractLogic online (though this was many, many months ago). And I've taken significant amounts of games from them all (though Guru, I only played like 2 or 3 times, and I know I won at least 1 or 2 times). You can ask them yourselves (though idk if Guru will remember playing me).

Falcon needs to do two things in the Diddy MU: Platform camp and ban FD. Since banning FD is self-explanatory, he really just needs to do one thing and, again, that is to platform camp. Diddy dominates Falcon on the ground because his bananas control the one dimensional space that Falcon relies to dash dance with, like Falco's lasers. Unlike Falco's lasers, however, Diddy's banana's for the most part require them be stationary on the ground. By introducing the element of the platform, you help eliminate the pressure that the bananas would have been applying on ground level tremendously. Way more than doing the same thing against Falco's lasers would've accomplished. And if for some reason, the Diddy Kong wants to hit you on the platforms with a banana, that means he has to free up space on the ground floor that would have otherwise been used to control space. Meaning that within the time period that the 1st banana is thrown at you and lands on a platform and the time it disappears, approaching on the ground becomes easier. Coupled with the fact that you can pick up bananas yourself (via regular pick up and wavedash) and use them against Diddy, Falcon can definitely make a decent approach in the neutral game against Diddy Kong by mainly utilizing his platform mobility and having high awareness of banana placement, which may be a strategy that not many of you are used to.

And once Falcon does get in, he has an absolutely disgusting combo game on Diddy, since he seems to behave like a fast faller. I think Falcon can do a pseudo up-throw regrab at zero, he has down throw tech chase conversions, and at high percents he has guaranteed up-throw Knees.
​

As for what I think of the Diddy MU, I'd be willing to say 55:45 Diddy, with 60:40 Diddy being the worst. An even MU may be pushing it a bit, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for me, as long as FD is always banned. Falcon just gets screwed vs Diddy on FD lol

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Hello Falcon boards. I'm Kman. I'm mainly a wi-fi player from Tennessee who also frequents offline tourneys when I can. I don't know how much validity you all give to online players, but I have experience playing against many good P:M players online (Zhime, Strong Bad, Frozen, Gallo, Nazo, etc.) and offline (KOKingpin, Reflex, Pikachad) etc. and I feel like I'm qualified to, at the very least, talk about certain MUs in this game without making it seem like I'm talking out of my ***. The only recent video I have of myself is me getting cheesed by a P:M DK at Tipped Off 9, who I think is ranked in Georgia for Melee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpwfdKrffhQ

I went to Kumite in Tennessee which was more recent, but Smash Studios seems to have deleted the singles pools matches from their Twitch channel for some reason and only top 8 was saved. I'll be at a tourney that SS is going to stream later in the afternoon today, maybe you can see me there? Anyway...

----------------------------------------------------------------​

Back in 2.6, I would have said that Ivysaur was one of Falcon's worst MUs due to her not having to commit to anything with her extremely safe, disjoined aerials, eazy auto-shield pressure with razor leaf, superb gimp game, her freaking solar shine, and the relative difficulty in edgeguarding her. Now, with her being much less ridiculous in 3.0, she's much more manageable to play against and she does not destroy Falcon as hard anymore. As for his worst MU now, I don't know. I've not run into an MU in 3.0 where I felt there was nothing I could do yet (except spacies because **** spacies). Though I think I still need more practice in the Falcon/Zelda MU, which I'd be happy to give my current thoughts on if asked.

However, there is something that is bothering me immensely. A lot of you have claimed that Diddy is one of Falcon's worst MUs. And while it may seem that way on paper, I believe that a lot of you feel this way because you're all playing the MU incorrectly in practice. Because I don't know how else you could view the MU as one of his worst. I've played many, if not all of the top Diddys before as Falcon: Disqo numerous times online and offline at Apex 2014, GuruKid at Apex, and AbstractLogic online (though this was many, many months ago). And I've taken significant amounts of games from them all (though Guru, I only played like 2 or 3 times, and I know I won at least 1 or 2 times). You can ask them yourselves (though idk if Guru will remember playing me).

Falcon needs to do two things in the Diddy MU: Platform camp and ban FD. Since banning FD is self-explanatory, he really just needs to do one thing and, again, that is to platform camp. Diddy dominates Falcon on the ground because his bananas control the one dimensional space that Falcon relies to dash dance with, like Falco's lasers. Unlike Falco's lasers, however, Diddy's banana's for the most part require them be stationary on the ground. By introducing the element of the platform, you help eliminate the pressure that the bananas would have been applying on ground level tremendously. Way more than doing the same thing against Falco's lasers would've accomplished. And if for some reason, the Diddy Kong wants to hit you on the platforms with a banana, that means he has to free up space on the ground floor that would have otherwise been used to control space. Meaning that within the time period that the 1st banana is thrown at you and lands on a platform and the time it disappears, approaching on the ground becomes easier. Coupled with the fact that you can pick up bananas yourself (via regular pick up and wavedash) and use them against Diddy, Falcon can definitely make a decent approach in the neutral game against Diddy Kong by mainly utilizing his platform mobility and having high awareness of banana placement, which may be a strategy that not many of you are used to.

And once Falcon does get in, he has an absolutely disgusting combo game on Diddy, since he seems to behave like a fast faller. I think Falcon can do a pseudo up-throw regrab at zero, he has down throw tech chase conversions, and at high percents he has guaranteed up-throw Knees.
​

As for what I think of the Diddy MU, I'd be willing to say 55:45 Diddy, with 60:40 Diddy being the worst. An even MU may be pushing it a bit, but it's not out of the realm of possibility for me, as long as FD is always banned. Falcon just gets screwed vs Diddy on FD lol

How does Falcon deal with the popgun. What your covering is only half of Diddy's control, you've talked about bananas but you haven't touched the surface of what Diddy does best. A couple of peanuts would be enough to get Falcon off the platform or get an u-smash via peanuts into a waveland on the platform into u-smash. Diddy has so many moves to just keep Falcon away, and so many options to just get in and damage the Captain before retreating to the safety of bananas and peanuts.




What about Zard and DK?

 

[-Fatality-]

Zard is pretty rough, you punish him pretty hard, but so does Zard to you, while also outclassing you on and off-stage, you should switch characters here.

DK is a funny matchup, it feels pretty even to me. Both can completely body each other, on and off-stage. This matchup is all about tight neutral play, and super hard punishes both ways.

As always, I'm happy to go into detail if desired, too tired to tonight.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

How does Falcon deal with the popgun. What your covering is only half of Diddy's control, you've talked about bananas but you haven't touched the surface of what Diddy does best. A couple of peanuts would be enough to get Falcon off the platform or get an u-smash via peanuts into a waveland on the platform into u-smash. Diddy has so many moves to just keep Falcon away, and so many options to just get in and damage the Captain before retreating to the safety of bananas and peanuts.




What about Zard and DK?

I'm not too certain on this but I believe Falcon's nair, when spaced, can cut through peanuts. However, this isn't something I would constantly do because the nair would be easily CCable and it will probably hurt a lot.

Peanuts are hella annoying, but what I usually do is just move around platforms until they stop shooting or if they're shooting peanuts from under a platform, I approach the platform just with the intent to threaten space and scare them into not shooting more peanuts. Also, platform camping is a process that you may have to rinse and repeat over and over again. I've gone to time with Disqo a couple of times, (though he's known for almost going to time lol). It requires a lot of patience that many Falcon players don't have and of course would see really skeptical to those who've never played in such a way. But due to the advantages abusing platforms gives, I really believe that it's the best way to play against Diddy Kong.


If it would help, I may be able to record like two wi-fi replays I have save vs Disqo in 2.6 and upload them to my YT channel.


As for Zard and DK, I think those MUs are even against Falcon, or a slight advantage for DK. Falcon can **** up both characters from a grab, and they can both **** up Falcon from a grab.

Now with Zard, if you decide to up throw him, like 90% of Charizards will spam up air to avoid a short hop up air follow-up. At like mid percents, you can catch the jump with full hop up airs and chain them via a wheel of fortune. With platforms, you can even land, regrab, and continue juggling him. As for Zard's nair, his nair is good, but it comes out from behind him instead of in front. Some good Zard's will Reverse Aerial Rush with nair approaches and try to start up juggles. But it's pretty easy to see coming and is extremely punishable on block. Zard has a pretty good down throw tech chase on Falcon. Best I can say about this is to not get grabbed. As far as edgeguarding Zard, you reeeeally want to hit Zard as soon as you see them start to glide. When Charizards glide, they either want to use their high priority glide attack or sweetspot the ledge. When you hit Zard out of his glide, you severely limit his recovery options. Moonwalk back airs offstage help a lot in hitting him out of glide. It's the same idea in the Pit MU. When you hit Pit out of glide, his recovery sucks.

With DK, Falcon destroys DK from a grab, but DK also destroys Falcon from a grab. Honestly, Falcon and DK are very similar in how they engage in the neutral game. DK has amazing horizontal mobility in P:M, on level with Falcon's mobility and his approach game is very similar to Falcon's with his amazingly buffed nair leading into grabs. He can still also approach with bair like he could in Melee and can convert a bair at low percent to a grab. In a way, it might help to pretend that you're playing a Falcon ditto or against Marth when you play vs DK because it's all about how the other character can get in and mess each other up from a grab.​

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'm not too certain on this but I believe Falcon's nair, when spaced, can cut through peanuts. However, this isn't something I would constantly do because the nair would be easily CCable and it will probably hurt a lot.

Peanuts are hella annoying, but what I usually do is just move around platforms until they stop shooting or if they're shooting peanuts from under a platform, I approach the platform just with the intent to threaten space and scare them into not shooting more peanuts. Also, platform camping is a process that you may have to rinse and repeat over and over again. I've gone to time with Disqo a couple of times, (though he's known for almost going to time lol). It requires a lot of patience that many Falcon players don't have and of course would see really skeptical to those who've never played in such a way. But due to the advantages abusing platforms gives, I really believe that it's the best way to play against Diddy Kong.


If it would help, I may be able to record like two wi-fi replays I have save vs Disqo in 2.6 and upload them to my YT channel.


As for Zard and DK, I think those MUs are even against Falcon, or a slight advantage for DK. Falcon can **** up both characters from a grab, and they can both **** up Falcon from a grab.

Now with Zard, if you decide to up throw him, like 90% of Charizards will spam up air to avoid a short hop up air follow-up. At like mid percents, you can catch the jump with full hop up airs and chain them via a wheel of fortune. With platforms, you can even land, regrab, and continue juggling him. As for Zard's nair, his nair is good, but it comes out from behind him instead of in front. Some good Zard's will Reverse Aerial Rush with nair approaches and try to start up juggles. But it's pretty easy to see coming and is extremely punishable on block. Zard has a pretty good down throw tech chase on Falcon. Best I can say about this is to not get grabbed. As far as edgeguarding Zard, you reeeeally want to hit Zard as soon as you see them start to glide. When Charizards glide, they either want to use their high priority glide attack or sweetspot the ledge. When you hit Zard out of his glide, you severely limit his recovery options. Moonwalk back airs offstage help a lot in hitting him out of glide. It's the same idea in the Pit MU. When you hit Pit out of glide, his recovery sucks.

With DK, Falcon destroys DK from a grab, but DK also destroys Falcon from a grab. Honestly, Falcon and DK are very similar in how they engage in the neutral game. DK has amazing horizontal mobility in P:M, on level with Falcon's mobility and his approach game is very similar to Falcon's with his amazingly buffed nair leading into grabs. He can still also approach with bair like he could in Melee and can convert a bair at low percent to a grab. In a way, it might help to pretend that you're playing a Falcon ditto or against Marth when you play vs DK because it's all about how the other character can get in and mess each other from a grab.​

I'm not going to pretend I know more about the DK and Zard MUs then you, because I don't. But from how you talk about them it sounds like Falcon has a slight advantage or is even against Zard. And for DK, he has an even matchup. Am I right? This is just the preliminary MU spread, once I'm "done" with it then I will submit it to all of the MU threads one at a time, we'll go over it and then it will be done, and a tier list can be made.
Their is probably just going to be an S tier and an A and/or B tier.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

I'm not going to pretend I know more about the DK and Zard MUs then you, because I don't. But from how you talk about them it sounds like Falcon has a slight advantage or is even against Zard. And for DK, he has an even matchup. Am I right? This is just the preliminary MU spread, once I'm "done" with it then I will submit it to all of the MU threads one at a time, we'll go over it and then it will be done, and a tier list can be made.
Their is probably just going to be an S tier and an A and/or B tier.

I would say that the Zard/Falcon MU and the DK/Falcon MU are both relatively even.

And in the beginning, I meant that 90% of Zards would spam jump, not up air. Cause he can jump out of Falcon's up throw relatively early like Samus can. I think he can jump out of down throw as well, but I don't remember. But yeah, sorry about that.

Edit: And the reason why I think they are even is, again, Zard and DK can mess Falcon up off of a grab (Zard with down throw tech chases and aerial juggles and DK with cargo up throw ---> up air combos). And they both have the ability to go out and edgeguard Falcon relatvely well. Zard with his multiple jumps and nair can juggle a double-jumpless Falcon offstage for days. And DK can edgeguard Falcon offstage with bair, nair, and even with his up-b.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I would say that the Zard/Falcon MU and the DK/Falcon MU are both relatively even.

And in the beginning, I meant that 90% of Zards would spam jump, not up air. Cause he can jump out of Falcon's up throw relatively early like Samus can. I think he can jump out of down throw as well, but I don't remember. But yeah, sorry about that.

Edit: And the reason why I think they are even is, again, Zard and DK can mess Falcon up off of a grab (Zard with down throw tech chases and aerial juggles and DK with cargo up throw ---> up air combos). And they both have the ability to go out and edgeguard Falcon relatvely well. Zard with his multiple jumps and nair can juggle a double-jumpless Falcon offstage for days. And DK can edgeguard Falcon offstage with bair, nair, and even with his up-b.

Yeah, the three of them have the same dash-dance tech-chase game. Now: Diddy has a slight advantage against Falcon, and Fox and Falco are covered because of Melee MUs... Aannndd now I am on G&W, Ganondorf, and ICs.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

Yeah, the three of them have the same dash-dance tech-chase game. Now: Diddy has a slight advantage against Falcon, and Fox and Falco are covered because of Melee MUs... Aannndd now I am on G&W, Ganondorf, and ICs.

• I think G&W beats Falcon only because of the bacon (G&W's neutral B). I also played Dakpo in friendly rotations at Apex and I always got 1-2 stocked because of his great use of bacon to stuff Falcon's approach options and his great aerial combo game on Falcon. Bacon is land-cancelable, btw, which is why it's so good (sooooo glad the PMBR got rid of the super bacon, that crap was so annoying). Also, G&W can duck under Falcon's grab and can respond with down tilt and G&W's down tilt hurts a lot because it adds a lot of damage and sets up for free combos. CC down tilt is also dumb when you try to approach with nair. Stomp beats out CC down tilt, but that's assuming you can somehow get past all the bacon. Also, down tilt is god-like at edge-guarding Falcon... ugh, down tilt Dx
  
  I've always been bad at this MU, but I'm still working on it. And I think I've got better at it, seeing that I was able to bring Dakpo (probably the best P:M G&W, imo) down to 2 and 1 stocks with Falcon (some of them on FD, too, which is probably Falcon's worst stage vs G&W). I have a new theory on how to approach it that I may need to test out in the future. Once you get in on G&W (however you accomplish doing that, please tell me), you have to keep on the pressure as long as you can so that he doesn't have any room to set up any more bacon. Land-canceled bacon is the reason why this MU is not in Falcon's favor, imo, because it prevents him from efficiently engaging in the neutral game, similar to Falco's lasers, and they can force you to do dumb options OoS if you try and shield the bacon, like rolling (Dakpo was catching me a lot off of rolls OoS after a bacon approach). But instead of Falco's lasers going in a horizontal path, you have all of these little bacon pieces creating a sphere around G&W which makes it very difficult to approach him. You can cut through bacons with spaced nair but what's awaiting for you on the other end is a CC down tilt. It's a hard MU, imo, and once I get more practice on it, I may be able to comment further. Of course stages with platforms help to avoid bacon, ban FD, blah, blah, blah.
  
  I would put it at 60:40 G&W at the very least. Perhaps if I played Dakpo more on a more variety of stages (small, big, platforms, walls, etc), I'd have a different opinion.​

• As for ICs, I would assume the MU is the same as in Melee, but you don't have to worry about Wobbling anymore lol. And the Brawl handoffs aren't of any concern as well. Just try to separate them with Knees and kill Nana (I think they made Nana smarter, so watch out for that). Watch Mango vs Wobbles Melee Grand Finals at Kings of Cali 2 to get a sense of how Mango approaches the MU.
  
  Whatever the MU in Melee is. 50:50? 60:40 Falcon? I dunno. Well, probably 60:40 Falcon since Wobbling is gone lol.​

Also, other people should chime in. I was shocked that everyone here thought Diddy was one of Falcon's worst MUs. Maybe everyone thinks that G&W is an easy MU for Falcon. I'd like to hear what everyone has to say.

 

[DMG]

G&W is hard as well. Dakpo lives in my state, he's no fun as Falcon

 

[Deleted member]

^ definitely agree

Really bad stages to take G&W are Delfino and FoD, you literally have no breathe and your ass will get tossed around by his magical parachute.

I still got to find out more about the G&W Falcon matchup, I'm pretty sure G&W has the upper hand

 

[DarkStarStorm]

And now I'm on Ivy, DeDeDe, Kirby, and Link.

 

[GeZ]

Without doing any research I'd tentatively say Link and Ivy are difficult, though Ivy more so, DeDeDe is in Falcon's favor, and Kirby has an advantage of Falcon.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Without doing any research I'd tentatively say Link and Ivy are difficult, though Ivy more so, DeDeDe is in Falcon's favor, and Kirby has an advantage of Falcon.

The Ivy people are saying that in 3.0 it is only a slight advantage their way. And I'm inclined to agree with them, Ivy is kind of like a Brawl-type character in PM, and Falcon's movement doesn't make it terrible for him. They also said that in 2.6 Ivy had a fantastic MU with Falcon, so, the nerfs made it milder. Link seems to be amazing in PM, I don't know of any MUs that are bad for him. Got it.

I think that I forgot Ike...

 

[DMG]

D3 is even, depending on stage
Link is pretty even as well, MU involves a ton more patience than before
Ivy is a slightly bad MU atm, used to be one of Falcon's absolute worst MU's
Kirby is weird and might have a slight edge

 

[Alexo30]

Link is an even MU if you make sure to put pressure on, otherwise it is a bit more towards Link if you give him space, due to projectiles.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Sorry, D3? Yeah, Kirby can mess Falcon up, edgeguards are easy enough against Falcons but getting them offstage is easy to with Kirby. Yeah I guess now that I think about it that Link wouldn't be as fantastic as I thought against the Captain.

D3 is even, depending on stage
Link is pretty even as well, MU involves a ton more patience than before
Ivy is a slightly bad MU atm, used to be one of Falcon's absolute worst MU's
Kirby is weird and might have a slight edge

 

[yohoos]

I personally feel the Kirby matchup is heavily in Kirby's favor. Kirby can crouch and Falcon will be unable to approach for the most part. Kirby's uptilt snuffs most aerial approaches as well and Kirby's aerials generally has more priority and lasts a long time so its difficult to challenge/punish them. Falcon can really only attack when he is below Kirby when he can start UpAiring pretty safely. Falcon also can't seem to punish Kirby's dash attack AT ALL. I also can't tell if Dthrow into knee is actually guaranteed or not.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

What are the MUs like for Lucario, Lucas, Luigi?

 

[Nephiros]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. Interestingly I play both G&W and Falcon but have little experience in the match-up on either sides. I'd agree with it being in G&W's favor since he's much better at forcing an approach than approaching himself and it's not like Falcon can play keep-away or bait all day. I'd have to test it, but FD and PS2 sounds like good stage picks for Falcon with FoD as the obvious worst.

As for Kirby, that MU has been giving me lots of issues with Falcon as well. Good Kirby players are really hard to grab and combo, which makes it fairly hard to setup for knees. He can be risky to edgeguard too, especially when behind in stocks. On the flipside, Kirby can combo and techchase Falcon pretty good on top of having a much easier time with edgeguarding.

Kman, I see you mentioned playing Wifi - have you considered setting up netplay on dolphin? The delay is lower and we could definitely use some more good players!

 

[-Fatality-]

No offense DarkStarStorm, but I really don't think making a community run matchup chart for any characters right now is going to end up being a good thing. People are inevitably going to have very different experiences in any given matchup, community consensus of any notable kind is basically impossible, and the game is still so young that our current understanding of most matchups will likely be very primitive. I also think that assigning numbers to matchups will sometimes lead to people walking into and out of matchups with assumptions that could stifle their growth as a player.
I'll give some hypothetical examples. Player X (a Fox player) sees that Fox Ganondorf is 70-30 in Fox's Favor, they walk into a match with a Ganon with a cocky attitude and from the get-go, expect a cake walk. Pretty soon Player X gets bodied, and they walk away from the matchup feeling bad about themselves for being incapable as a player to capitalize on their "obvious matchup advantage". Imagine an opposite scenario with a player facing a "30-70" matchup, if they lose, they're probably more likely to just give up on the matchup as being too difficult, rather than trying to learn it's intricacies and create new technology to solve their problems. There have been many times throughout the competitive history of the smash games, where initial community consensus's of a matchup, were usurped by new knowledge and understanding of them.
I do think that perhaps the single most useful way we can collectively learn matchups is to look at we now deem to be weaknesses in a matchup, and try to devise realistic ways to beat as many of them as possible. I think that if we can effectively find out what works, and what doesn't work, that we can form something similar to a Pro-Con list, listing what is and isn't a good way to approach a given situation, and general nuggets of knowledge, helping us solely focus on the things that will actually help us win these matchups. Do we have any admins/mods who frequent the Falcon forums? It would be nice if we could sticky a document with that kind of info on it.