Best Moves

[InTimidator]

Down-B with Zelda is the best Down-B.

 

[G3TL05T]

Updated, and guys, we need to know the best specials, because I really have no clue about those.

 

[Squartle]

I can't figure out what exactly you are trying to say...

If you are suggesting that runoff rejump dair still works fine, then I suggest you pick yoshi and test it.

My original intent was simply to say that the combination of those three moves would be the single best recovery in the game. I was not implying that this character would be Falco, or have any of his moves, like Dair.

Now, let's assume that this character does have Falco's dair. I suppose in Melee, runoff rejump dair would work if you DJC, but it wouldn't put you back on the stage since DJC cancels upward momentum. That's where Mewtwo's Up-B comes in.

I'm not certain if this is how it works in Melee, but in Project: M, characters with DJC (Ness, in this instance) can hold the jump button and perform a rising aerial in any direction. I think this would then make it work similarly to how it worked for Falco in Melee.

 

[R2_GP]

nice thread.
best f-throw is deff peach's (it feels lik it scales with damege though)

best n-air double kick capt. falcon (very powerful combo starter)

 

[Squartle]

best n-air double kick capt. falcon (very powerful combo starter)

What about Dr. Mario's reverse sex kick?

 

[ycz12]

Yo, GameFAQs is way ahead of Smashboards on this topic.

Credit to Slashtap with minor edits by me.

Ground attributes:
-Falcon running speed
-Bowser weight
-Kirby crouch height
-Pichu size (but retains attack range of all the corresponding attacks listed below)
-Falcon dashdance
-Falcon moonwalk
-Mewtwo roll
-Fox sidestep
-Samus wavedash (no we do not freakin need Luigi's)
-Bowser shield

Aerial attributes:
-Falco short hop height
-Sheik full jump height (roughly)
-Falco double jump height
-Falco fastfall speed
-Sheik normal fall speed
-Mewtwo's azendash survivability
-Zelda airdodge recovery
-Falcon wall-jump

Unique attributes:
-Kirby number of jumps
-Mewtwo aerial rise
-Samus mid-air grapple
-Ice Climbers number of characters
-Peach float ability but it does not hinder the wavedash input
-Peach float cancel
-Jiggs ability to change horizontal trajectory in air
-DK character model (to confuse opponents about the Pichu-sized hit box)
-Master Hand stock image
-Game and Watch taunt
-Luigi and Falcon after-match animations
-Yoshi color options

Moves:
Jab: Ganondorf
Multijab: Pikachu
Ftilt: Sheik
Dtilt: Marth
Utilt: Marth

Dash Attack: Sheik
Ledge Attack: Bowser
100%+ Ledge Attack: doesn't matter just don't use it
Wake-up attack: Marth/Bowser

Fsmash: Marth
Usmash: Pikachu
Dsmash: Peach

B: Falco
VB: Jiggs
>B: Samus
^B: Bowser (even though Sheik's is best this char recovers better than Jiggs so Up B should be an out of shield weapon rather than a recovery move)

Grab: Marth
Grab hit: Mewtwo
Uthrow: Mewtwo
Fthrow: DK
Dthrow: G&W
Bthrow: Mewtwo
Extender: Samus

Nair: Luigi
Uair: Fox
Bair: Ganondorf
Dair: Falco
Fair: Falcon (For winning purposes I should choose Marth or someone whose fair would combo into Rest, but it just wouldn't be as cool)

So I probably chose wrong on a few of the physics attributes (not sure if I chose the best shield, best roll, best normal fall speed etc..), but then again you won't know what's best because a character's moveset is an emergent property whose viability you cannot determine from frame data alone.. Kind of like how you can't tell how organ systems work just by looking at their constituent cells under a microscope.

As for the theory behind the moveset, the idea is to convert stocks as efficiently as possible and not just use the "best" move in each category. For instance, Fox's shine might be the best stand-alone down B move in the game, but I didn't choose shine because in tandem with the synergistic support of the right moveset, Rest easily overtakes it, especially considering that this character already has out of shield and spiking options without the shine as it is. Furthermore, Rest's glaring weaknesses (afterlag and small hitbox) are erased by key changes: To avoid afterlag, just have your partner character ("Nana") do the Resting. To overcome the small hitbox, have both characters Rest to cover all options.

The bottom line is that every time you touch your opponent (mainly approaching with laser/dashdance grab) you should 0-death into Rest, or at least combo the opponent off the stage so that you can multi-jump dair spam until your opponent is spiked.

The other beautiful thing is that if you don't want to combo off his stocks, you can run away laser + bair wall of pain to camp all day and give them a surprise Knee/Upsmash/Upair/Backthrow when they're at killing percent (killing percent for this character = 50% kthx)

The things that are most likely to be wrong here are probably the aerials, since I haven't really thought through how float canceling would interact with every aerial in the game.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I dont agree with using Sheik's dash attack. Would rather have Ness or Peach over Sheik.

I dont agree with using Luigi's nair. Why? Samus or Link would be better...Peach too probably. Link has great IASA on his nair.

I don't agree with using Bowser's upB. Its just sacrilege.

and also...

EXCUSE ME!? Mewtwo's bthrow? Really?

 

[Xyzz]

-Peach float ability but it does not hinder the wavedash input

Peach's float does not hinder the wavedash input. If somebody does think so, he's got much to learn in terms of techskill (and probably should do that instead of creating lists on best moves).

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco laser
Falco dair
Peach d-smash
Falco shine
Puff rest
Fox shine
Bowser fortress
Sheik f-tilt

In no particular order. If we include grabs, throws, and movement then this gets a bit messy.

 

[G3TL05T]

I updated everything. Thanks for making this an interesting thread guys, it was fun to analyze all the moves and choose the best, even if this list isn't perfect.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

What are the best moves in melee for each button function, as far as usefulness in fighting goes?
Here's my incomplete opinion, but please comment your own with explanation.
By the way, I'm still learning about the game, so I'm no pro at this stiff. Also, there will probably be lots of Marth bias... sorry.

Neutral A: Falco
Side Tilt: Sheik
Up Tilt: Marth
Down Tilt: Marth

Dash Attack: Sheik

Side Smash: Marth
Up Smash: Fox - Better hitboxes than Pikachu
Down Smash: Peach

Neutral Air: Fox
Forward Air: Sheik
Back Air: Jigglypuff, Fox, Falco
Up Air: Fox
Down Air: Falco

Neutral B: Falco
Side B: Mario, Dr. Mario - Doc's does more damage and is longer, Mario's has less ending lag and is better for recover. I don't know which one is better.
Up B: Pikachu, Mewtwo?
Down B: Falco, Fox, Jigglypuff - Falco's leads into combos, Fox spikes, Jigglypuff's KOs if landed... still can't decide which one is best

Grab: Marth - Soooooo much range - Next to Samus, Link, and Young Link that is, but I don't consider tether grabs as useful
Pummel: ?
Up throw: Fox/Mewtwo - Fox's is really useful, but Mewtwo's is best on it's own for a KOs
Forward Throw: Peach?
Back Throw: Ness
Down Throw: Sheik

Jump: Falco
Roll: Mewtwo
Ledge Roll: ?
Air Dodge: Zelda?
Wavedash: Marth/Luigi - Marth can dash dance far better and still has a good wavedash, just not as long as Luigi's, but as acknowledged by Xx swift xX, he has no DD because of the low traction.

Ledge Attack: Bowser
100% Ledge Attack: Bowser
Floor Attack: ?

If there are any attacks I left out, please tell me.

It seems like we are just throwing high tier characters onto moves because we think they are just better.

FOR EXAMPLE: LINK has a better neutral air than FOX. It just doesn't have as many applications because it is on Link who is overall a less good character.

Neutral Air: Link ( I would also place Samus' over Fox's)
Side B: Jigglypuff (hello recovery)
Forward Air: Marth and Ness easily over Sheik
Wavedash: Luigi (how about we separate Wavedash from Initial Dash)
Initial Dash: Captain Falcon (This is your dash dance)

 

[chenjesu]

aerial recovery time = luigi
peach's wavedash has the least lag time too?

 

[-LzR-]

If you are going to think of the best moves, you need to keep in mind the physics and moveset of the character who has said move. You can't just take the moves out of the character and start comparing them. Fox has the best nair because he falls fast, is mobile and can shine to make it safe.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

If you are going to think of the best moves, you need to keep in mind the physics and moveset of the character who has said move. You can't just take the moves out of the character and start comparing them. Fox has the best nair because he falls fast, is mobile and can shine to make it safe.

You absolutely should take the moves off of the characters and start comparing them. Otherwise you get things like CF having the best forward air because of his dash jump abilities....but imagine if you did some like made a character with CF's dash jumping abilities and Ganon's forward air. This is the whole point of the topic: to mix and match things like that. That's also why moves need to be considered independent of their characters.

 

[-LzR-]

If you take moves off of the characters you won't get anything out of it and it will be a huge mess. But good luck.

 

[Gatoray]

Wouldn't the best pummel be Ice Climbers due to wobbling?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

If you take moves off of the characters you won't get anything out of it and it will be a huge mess. But good luck.

We are trying to make a new character out of other characters' moves. If we attach each character's other attributes to their moves then every time this new character does an attack all of their basic stats would change to another character's stats. What you suggest would make a character with dynamic fall speed, weight, run speed, etc.

 

[-LzR-]

I see. Well some moves that are amazing just don't really work with certain physics so it's going to be hard, but as it's purely for fun, good luck.

 

[BTmoney]

The best fair in the game belongs to Marth IMO

The best side B would also go to Marth or Puff

 

[BarlessPianist]

Luigi's taunt is God tier and incredibly viable.

#BanLuigi

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you remove attacks from characters and look at them in a vacuum then charge-based stuff where you store it for later use like Samus's beam, Mewtwo's shadow ball, and DK's giant punch become really powerful. Being able to charge a kill move with relatively low lag for its hitbox and with enormous range (a projectile kill move!?) is really strong. The reason those attacks generally get overlooked is Mewtwo's is basically just a worse charge beam unless you have charge-cancel tricksies and more importantly those characters lack the ability to create space vs too many characters to use those moves, their shield games are really slanted because they're missing some element of a good shield game, or the character just sucks entirely.

...wait.

Humor aside, think about those moves. They can really fill a hole in a character or provide a stupid amount of raw power in exchange for basically nothing. Seriously, imagine DK's punch on Marth. Now, for some real fun, exchange Toad for Samus's beam on Peach. Turnips, beam, float cancels, d-smash... the beam is basically there strictly to have a kill move for the end of a turnip trap offstage and so she can blast the characters that outrange her with a giant move to set up or throw more crap around so her other crap (turnips, floating) can work more easily because there are extra distractions. Hooray.

...Actually, that sounds really fun. Someone make me a mod that gives Peach the charge beam or Sheik's needles instead of Toad. That would seriously make my day.

 

[-LzR-]

Puff with Falco lasers please. She could probably shoot like 3 lasers from one SH.

 

[darf nate]

forward air: captain falcon
Neutral air: samus
down B: jigglypuff
up b: pikachu
down air: falco, link
up air: captain falcon, pikachu
nuetral b: samus
up smash: pika or fox
down smash: peach
side smash: game and watch
dash attack: game and watch, it feels like it has soo little ending lag to me compared to everyone else
up tilt: bowser

 

[a nub]

Can't believe nobody mentioned this for best utilt

 

[Xyzz]

That's not a uptilt, that thing is a bad joke