Best Moves

[G3TL05T]

What are the best moves in melee for each button function, as far as usefulness in fighting goes?
Here's my incomplete opinion, but please comment your own with explanation.
By the way, I'm still learning about the game, so I'm no pro at this stiff. Also, there will probably be lots of Marth bias... sorry.

Neutral A: Falco
Side Tilt: Sheik
Up Tilt: Marth
Down Tilt: Marth

Dash Attack: Sheik

Side Smash: Marth
Up Smash: Fox - Better hitboxes than Pikachu
Down Smash: Peach

Neutral Air: Fox
Forward Air: Sheik
Back Air: Jigglypuff, Fox, Falco
Up Air: Fox
Down Air: Falco

Neutral B: Falco
Side B: Mario, Dr. Mario - Doc's does more damage and is longer, Mario's has less ending lag and is better for recover. I don't know which one is better.
Up B: Pikachu, Mewtwo?
Down B: Falco, Fox, Jigglypuff - Falco's leads into combos, Fox spikes, Jigglypuff's KOs if landed... still can't decide which one is best

Grab: Marth - Soooooo much range - Next to Samus, Link, and Young Link that is, but I don't consider tether grabs as useful
Pummel: ?
Up throw: Fox/Mewtwo - Fox's is really useful, but Mewtwo's is best on it's own for a KOs
Forward Throw: Peach?
Back Throw: Ness
Down Throw: Sheik

Jump: Falco
Roll: Mewtwo
Ledge Roll: ?
Air Dodge: Zelda?
Wavedash: Marth/Luigi - Marth can dash dance far better and still has a good wavedash, just not as long as Luigi's, but as acknowledged by Xx swift xX, he has no DD because of the low traction.

Ledge Attack: Bowser
100% Ledge Attack: Bowser
Floor Attack: ?

If there are any attacks I left out, please tell me.

 

[ZIngaZ]

The best fair is definitely the knee of power...

 

[G3TL05T]

The best fair is definitely the knee of power...

Forgot about that!

 

[K@$h]

peaches down smash? lolz

 

[The 2t]

The best moves are the ones that are shown to Falcon.

 

[standardtoaster]

ledge attack < 100 would definitely be bowser's

 

[Xx swift xX]

Jab: Falco - long range, good hitstun
F Tilt: Sheik - combos, low ending lag
Up Tilt: Marth
Down Tilt: Game & Watch - manhole! with this kit, why would you be edgeguarding with marth's down tilt?

Dash Attack: Sheik

Side Smash: Marth
Up Smash: Pikachu
Down Smash: Peach

Neutral Air: Fox
Forward Air: Sheik - the knee is nice, but too slow
Back Air: Jigglypuff
Up Air: Ganon - that pseudo spike. plus good range and speed
Down Air: Marth - disjointed hit box + longer range

Neutral B: Sheik - needle cancelled turn-around ledge grabs
Side B: Doctor Mario - extremely useful edge guard
Up B: Mewtwo - fast and long; hard to predict
Down B: Fox

Grab: Marth
Up throw: Jigglypuff - fast, so harder to react for DI
Forward Throw: Captain Falcon
Back Throw: Ness
Down Throw: Sheik

Jump: Falco or maybe Jigglypuff but that would be too broken. Think meta knight.
Roll: ?
Ledge Roll: ?
Air Dodge: Zelda
Wavedash: Marth - luigi has no DD game due to his ****ty traction. (reason he has such a long wavedash)

Ledge Attack: Bowser
100% Ledge Attack: ?
Floor Attack: ?

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Best FThrow is definitely DK.

 

[Deleted member]

fox definitely has the best upthrow, that move is horribly unfair.

 

[Xyzz]

Most things are at least somewhat situational.
E.g. Pika's up smash might be a bit stronger than fox's in terms of knockback, but on the other hand the one of the pokemon at least has somewhat fair hitboxes.

 

[Ziodyne]

Yeah, pretty hard to consider all of these moves in a vacuum when a lot of the best moves get the most mileage because the character using them is ridiculously good. Like when Umbreon says Fox has the best uthrow, a lot of the threat from uthrow comes from the fact that Fox is ridiculously good at capitalizing off uthrow, whether for positioning or hard punishes.

But thinking on it though, Fox's uthrow is really really good and probably could help almost any character if it replaced their uthrow.

 

[Insom]

back-air

that is all

 

[G3TL05T]

Updated my list. I took your suggestions and definitely learned from them, but I hope people continue sharing!

 

[G3TL05T]

Yeah, pretty hard to consider all of these moves in a vacuum when a lot of the best moves get the most mileage because the character using them is ridiculously good. Like when Umbreon says Fox has the best uthrow, a lot of the threat from uthrow comes from the fact that Fox is ridiculously good at capitalizing off uthrow, whether for positioning or hard punishes.

But thinking on it though, Fox's uthrow is really really good and probably could help almost any character if it replaced their uthrow.

I think that instead of thinking along the lines of what's the best stand-alone move, you're going for moves that combo well and would be particularly useful, which I think is what we should be going for.

 

[EpixAura]

I honestly think Fox and Falco have better Bairs than Puff. Puff has a great Bair, but if it wasn't complemented by a plethora of jumps and outstanding aerial mobility, it wouldn't get all the attention it gets now.

Also, Marth's Dair isn't all that great. I would replace it with with Falco's. Fair should probably be changed from Falcon's to Sheik's as well. Furthermore, Fox's Usmash is definitely better than Pika's. It's just a much better hitbox in several ways.

Some other things I'm iffy about are:
Nair: Could be replaced with Peach's, maybe? Not as good for comboing, but it's amazing.
DownB: Falco's or even Puff's could go here. I guess it's circumstantial. Fox's is the stronger standalone move, though.
Uthrow: Fox's is probably better, although it serves an entirely different purpose than Mewtwo's.
Jump: Falco's goes very high, but I believe is frame 4, as opposed to Fox's, which is only frame 2. Also, Fox has a more convenient short hop height.
Fthrow: Pretty much every Fthrow sucks, so I don't know if there's any better than Falcon's or not, but still...

 

[G3TL05T]

Updated again, and new format. I still can't decide on best Up B.

 

[EPsilon933]

Peach possibly has the best fthrow. It kills at 150%. At low %s the opponent lands standing in front of you so you can mix up with grabs, jabs, and dash attacks. For Peach specifically, giving distance between her and her opponent allows her to pull a turnip with is nice for the neutral spacing game

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Also, Marth's Dair isn't all that great.

I do not understand

 

[Yung Mei]

I do not understand

it means that Marth's down aerial move, (the one where he swings his sword down), is not a very good move to use in battle

phaget

 

[BTmoney]

Falco doesn't undisputedly have the best down air? You guys are ****ing smoking rocks

 

[Habefiet]

Question: Are we assuming these moves are just in a vacuum somewhere or are we trying to create a super-character with *all* the best moves

If we're in a vacuum I guess I can see an argument for either shine being best down-B but if we're creating some kind of monstrous fusion character then--as good as both shines are--I do not see an argument for this character being designed to do anything but get free Rest setups. Imagine a character with Fox's up-throw and jump height/speed but with Rest. Imagine Falco dair-> Falco u-tilt->Rest (or just dair->Rest but w/e).

As good as both shines are for a dozen things apiece, Rest is an OHKO on anyone anywhere at very low percents, and it'd be really easy to design a character even better than Jigglypuff at setting up up. My examples aren't even very good and they'd still be busted all to pieces.

And as aforementioned, putting things in a vacuum doesn't really make sense (ex. Sheik's down-B would actually be okay if put on someone that already sucks, ex. Bowser, just to open up more options and whatnot, but would be disastrous for Jigglypuff to have in place of Restf), so imo the only way to really do this is to assume we're putting the move on a character who can use it to its fullest, in which case Rest not just the best down-B but the best move outright

If we're trying to do something like "What if every character had Fox shine v. what if every character had Rest, which would be better"... well, no clue lol

 

[G3TL05T]

Question: Are we assuming these moves are just in a vacuum somewhere or are we trying to create a super-character with *all* the best moves

If we're in a vacuum I guess I can see an argument for either shine being best down-B but if we're creating some kind of monstrous fusion character then--as good as both shines are--I do not see an argument for this character being designed to do anything but get free Rest setups. Imagine a character with Fox's up-throw and jump height/speed but with Rest. Imagine Falco dair-> Falco u-tilt->Rest (or just dair->Rest but w/e).

As good as both shines are for a dozen things apiece, Rest is an OHKO on anyone anywhere at very low percents, and it'd be really easy to design a character even better than Jigglypuff at setting up up. My examples aren't even very good and they'd still be busted all to pieces.

And as aforementioned, putting things in a vacuum doesn't really make sense (ex. Sheik's down-B would actually be okay if put on someone that already sucks, ex. Bowser, just to open up more options and whatnot, but would be disastrous for Jigglypuff to have in place of Restf), so imo the only way to really do this is to assume we're putting the move on a character who can use it to its fullest, in which case Rest not just the best down-B but the best move outright

If we're trying to do something like "What if every character had Fox shine v. what if every character had Rest, which would be better"... well, no clue lol

You bring up an interesting point, but creating super characters is extremely difficult. Sure, you can have moves that set up rest, or moves that set up a Ken Combo ridiculously easily, and then you have to go to recoveries because the two different super characters are both OP at KOing. I'm just looking for the best moves in general, both for usefulness in combos and as stand alones. That's why I consider Marth's Dair spike good, because it can be set up with a Fair.

 

[G3TL05T]

Updated again, and I added the "pummel" attack.

 

[EpixAura]

I do not understand

It has nice range and can spike, but it's really slow, both in terms of startup time and endlag. It doesn't really set up for anything, and it can't really stop Marth from being juggled. On the other hand, there's Falco's Dair. Which can basically be used for whatever you want to use it for. Combos, kills, shield pressure, approaching (especially on people who love to CC), and occasionally stopping juggles. I'm pretty sure if it was a recovery as well, it would probably be an entire moveset just by itself.

Also, should we add best second jump to the list? We could incorporate someone with a DJC (Mewtwo, maybe?), or call it something like 'best subsequent jumps' so all of Puffs jumps could be included.

 

[BTmoney]

That's why I consider Marth's Dair spike good, because it can be set up with a Fair.

If you don't DI or DI incorrectly. You really shouldn't ever get ken combo'd

 

[Nicco]

I only use Falcon, and I only use B

 

[Ziodyne]

If you don't DI or DI incorrectly. You really shouldn't ever get ken combo'd

Never say never!

But falco's dair has so much more utility, it's not even funny.

Why is falcon's fthrow up there? Maybe I'm not using it right, but falcon's fthrow doesn't seem that good at all lol. Pretty sure both Puff, Marth, Peach, and Sheik ALL have better fthrows than Falcon, and I don't see how Falco/Fox's fthrow is worse than Falcon's.

 

[Strong Badam]

I forget how boring Melee is sometimes. They really designed this game quite shallowly. Peach's f-throw (which does a bit of damage and KOs at percents people shouldn't be living to) being the best f-throw when it's pretty debatable what the best u-throw is.... so much depth could have occurred here.

 

[Xyzz]

I'm pretty sure Marth's fair could be used to set up falco dair as well if a character had both of those moves.

 

[ElloEddy]

falco has the best dair...any character with that move willl become a combo heavy character lol

 

[Xyzz]

I think it's pretty important that he has shine and that super high jump as well, on it's own dair sounds great but not thaaat hot, imho (outside of stupid dair combos on Samus or sth lol)

 

[Squartle]

I think it's pretty important that he has shine and that super high jump as well, on it's own dair sounds great but not thaaat hot, imho (outside of stupid dair combos on Samus or sth lol)

Combo potential or not, Falco's down-air is amazing. Like, stupidly so. It's one of the most OP moves in the game. Forget finesse, forget tech skill, here's a three-second wall of ridiculous priority that also has a spike. Even before I started playing Melee in a technical fashion, Falco's dair was one of my go-to moves for almost any situation, on-stage and off.

Grounded Jump: Falco
Midair Jump: Yoshi
Up-B: Mewtwo

That there would be a BEAST of a recovery. Yoshi's super armor plus Mewtwo's Up-B range? Good lord.

EDIT: Also, here's a thought. Can you imagine a character of Bowser's size armed with Rest?

 

[Xyzz]

The post I was referring to was talking about combo potential, which is precisely what I wanted to speak about as well. Sure it's one of the greatest moves to edgeguard / finish people in general with (and combo into obv.), but to combo with it, there needs to be some other things present. E.g. I don't think Jiggs would get that much of it, if it just straight up replaced her current dair (maybe somewhat easier to execute combos, since she can now just combo somebody till he's offstage and then dair them? But her wall of pain / edgeguard game is so good already that it's probably good, but not thaaat amazing).

Also: I still believe that all those vacuum stuff doesn't work at all. E.g. Falco probably would be rather annoyed at times from having Yoshis DJ, since he couldn't do runoff rejump dair edgeguards anymore.

 

[Boat Mode]

Falcon has the best uair.

That it all.

 

[Habefiet]

The post I was referring to was talking about combo potential, which is precisely what I wanted to speak about as well. Sure it's one of the greatest moves to edgeguard / finish people in general with (and combo into obv.), but to combo with it, there needs to be some other things present. E.g. I don't think Jiggs would get that much of it, if it just straight up replaced her current dair (maybe somewhat easier to execute combos, since she can now just combo somebody till he's offstage and then dair them? But her wall of pain / edgeguard game is so good already that it's probably good, but not thaaat amazing).

Think about every hit that Puff ever lands on an off-stage opponent and imagine all of those being dairs

Think about a wall of dairs

Think about Puff having a better come-down move, a neat new OoS option, a move that pops up enemies at all manner of lovely angles and probably into Rest relatively easily at certain percents--actually scratch all that and just think about a floaty with a spike. Be reasonable man. No matter how good Puff's edgeguard game is, Falco's dair would make it better. Multi-hit edgeguards become single-hit edgeguards. Hits that will send them off-stage into a recovery that you are forced to guess on become hits that send them straight down to oblivion. etc etc.

I guess it depends on your definition of amazing, but in my imagination having Falco dair would make the concept of recovery almost irrelevant versus Jigglypuff

Plus it'd still be better than her regular dair. Adding one more very useful move to the arsenal of a character that already has a bundle is scary as all heck

 

[Xyzz]

Combo potential.

oppan broken record style.

 

[oukd]

kirby ledgeroll at +100

seriously look at dat sheit its beautiful

 

[G3TL05T]

Which B attacks would you guys say are the best?

 

[Squartle]

The post I was referring to was talking about combo potential, which is precisely what I wanted to speak about as well. Sure it's one of the greatest moves to edgeguard / finish people in general with (and combo into obv.), but to combo with it, there needs to be some other things present. E.g. I don't think Jiggs would get that much of it, if it just straight up replaced her current dair (maybe somewhat easier to execute combos, since she can now just combo somebody till he's offstage and then dair them? But her wall of pain / edgeguard game is so good already that it's probably good, but not thaaat amazing).

Also: I still believe that all those vacuum stuff doesn't work at all. E.g. Falco probably would be rather annoyed at times from having Yoshis DJ, since he couldn't do runoff rejump dair edgeguards anymore.

Not really. Yoshi has the double-jump cancel.

 

[Xyzz]

I can't figure out what exactly you are trying to say...

If you are suggesting that runoff rejump dair still works fine, then I suggest you pick yoshi and test it.