Best Buy Demo Discussion - What do you think of Fox in Smash 4?

[Krynxe]

This thread is to discuss your thoughts on Fox from the playable demo at Best Buy. Please visit the other characters boards to discuss different characters.

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With the playable demos on Wednesday, June 11 and Saturday, June 14, smashers who couldn't attend e3 will have the chance to experience Super Smash Brothers for the Wii U hands on for the first time.


- For information, Click here.
- To find a location near you, Click here.

 

[Toph_87]

If this has been posted somewhere else, I apologize, but did anybody else notice Fox's unusual new recovery?

Pay attention to the Green Fox (Player Four near the 1 min mark)

 

[Krynxe]

Yeah, you can do attacks and such out of side-b now. Definitely an amazing recovery now that Fox can use both illusion and firefox before touching the floor again.

it must have been a response to players constantly complaining about killing themselves with fox's side-b, haha. Looks fair enough, since his kill power seems reduced a bit

 

[Mr.Random]

Did Fsmash get buffed?

 

[Rhus]

Yeah, Fsmash was buffed in speed, not sure about kill power and such.

I hope my concerns about Fox are false. The ability to act out of Illusion is super nice though.

 

[BJN39]

If this has been posted somewhere else, I apologize, but did anybody else notice Fox's unusual new recovery?

Pay attention to the Green Fox (Player Four near the 1 min mark)

I was accidentally watching the wrong fox initially, so I went back.

I started watching, and then, "Holy ****!"

 

[roymustang1990-]

If this has been posted somewhere else, I apologize, but did anybody else notice Fox's unusual new recovery?

Pay attention to the Green Fox (Player Four near the 1 min mark)

Dream come true,somewhere in my mind,i always wished for this to be possible due to accidentally side B'ing off the stage.

 

[Raziek]

Courtesy of @Croi :

Fox:
Can act out of Fox Illusion, including using Fire Fox, but not Fox Illusion again. If this is intentional, Fox's recovery is STUPID GOOD.
Most of his attacks are heavily nerfed. Fresh uair at 70 barely did anything. He has the speed for decent combo games, though.
Frame data feels roughly as good as Brawl, nowhere near Melee obv.
Laser does not cancel on landing. Camping is massively nerfed as a result.
Shine cannot stall like it could in Brawl.

 

[Rhus]

Courtesy of @Croi :

Fox:
Can act out of Fox Illusion, including using Fire Fox, but not Fox Illusion again. If this is intentional, Fox's recovery is STUPID GOOD.
Most of his attacks are heavily nerfed. Fresh uair at 70 barely did anything. He has the speed for decent combo games, though.
Frame data feels roughly as good as Brawl, nowhere near Melee obv.
Laser does not cancel on landing. Camping is massively nerfed as a result.
Shine cannot stall like it could in Brawl.

Yeah, his recovery has been buffed, but so far, I have seen heavy nerfs to:

Lasers, Shine, Usmash, and Uair.

This essentially makes his defensive game completely terrible compared to his stellar one in Brawl, which needless to say I'm not happy about whatsoever.

However, he seemed to move faster, with the jump height of Brawl and faster falling speed. Does he still have his Foxcopter from Brawl?

 

[Raziek]

Foxcopter works, yes.

 

[Mr.Random]

Well. Not maining Fox in this game lol. A better recovery doesn't make up for the terrible nerfs.

 

[Toph_87]

Well. Not maining Fox in this game lol. A better recovery doesn't make up for the terrible nerfs.

True, but for some reason his new recovery makes Teams more interesting to me. Now I don't have to worry about saving my partner if he carelessly side-bs off the edge

 

[Rhus]

I will forever main Fox.

But I am just a little upset that they flat out destroyed his laser, and I'm really hoping they add laser cancelling before release or something, because without it his lasers literally become worthless.

 

[Jet3000]

These nerfs makes fox defensive game terrible. His f smash looks faster, I hope its good kill power. His recovery is the only buff he has a the moment. Foxcopter> illusion > fire fox. That being able to happen means fox has a better chance recovering far from the stage.

I wonder if he can still jump out of his shine when a projectile hits his reflector?

 

[roymustang1990-]

I wonder if he can still jump out of his shine when a projectile hits his reflector?

It's been confirmed that that action is no longer possible.

And the nerf to his laser,IMO, was stupid unnecessary.

 

[Swift Fox]

If this has been posted somewhere else, I apologize, but did anybody else notice Fox's unusual new recovery?

Pay attention to the Green Fox (Player Four near the 1 min mark)

I made it to the Smash Fest at Best Buy and I tested if this is true on 3DS version and yup, it's true.

 

[Rhus]

Because I've been analyzing Fox gameplay for the past couple days, I'll post a cumulative list of what I have found by simply watching. I am Canadian and the closest demo was >2 hours away so I didn't get to attend.

Nerfs

-Fox's shine now lags more, quick on activation but you get "stuck" in it like in Melee, but the shine is not jump cancelable with or without projectile reflection.
-Uair knockback has been drastically reduced
-*Usmash knockback reduced
-Lasers appear to not cancel at all, unlike Melee/Brawl
-Fox's fall speed has increased
-Fox's Illusion now cancels when he moves over a ledge on the ground, meaning he can no longer traverse platforms such as the bottom two on battlefield without doing an aerial Illusion.

Buffs

-Illusion no longer puts Fox into a free fall, and he can use his specials out of it, but not use Illusion twice.
-Fox's fall speed has increased
-Forward Smash is faster, not sure on its kill power
--The last hit of Fox's Dair now hits upwards, if the move finishes before the final hit occurs, the move keeps it functionality from brawl
-Fox's laser appears to only decay to 2% at max distance from 1% in Brawl, but still does 3% closer up.

Unchanged from Brawl

-Fox's Foxcopter hover effect from Brawl is still possible.
-Fox's lasers have their same, terribad range from Brawl
-Fox retains his Utilt and Bair animations/moves from Brawl
-Fox retains his increased air speed
-Fox keeps his higher range Dsmash from Brawl

I know it's known Fox's Usmash was nerfed, but hear me out.

I was re watching some of the invitational and saw Fox's Usmash borderline kill Marth on the animal crossing stage at ~85% and the move killed Mario at ~100% on the Boxing Ring without an issue. Megaman proceeded to survive it on Wily Castle and the Boxing Ring really well, but PPMD had it staled on the Boxing Ring, and Wiley Castle has an enormous ceiling, and I also think that Megaman is quite a bit heavier than we think.

With regards to Fox's Dair, I am unsure whether or not it is only the last hit that send upwards, or the move will always send targets upwards when the move ends.

I watched the Nintendo Treehouse yesterday and the only match Fox was played in I saw him Dair Rosalina and land before the move had completed and there was no upward knockback. Thankfully, I would treat this as a buff as @ Splice was explaining, but I was unsure of how it worked until now. If his Dair still autocancels on Battlefield etc. then this could be a buff to his juggle game, combined with his lower knockback Uair. This also means he can likely still Dair>Utilt, Dair>Jab and Dair>Usmash/Dsmash at higher percents.

I'm probably missing things, let me know.

 

[Splice]

If you land on the ground before the last hit of the Dair (possibly an autocancel timing hopefully) wouldn't you still be able to follow it up? Did anyone test using the way it pops the enemy up to make a new combo?

Also if illusion cancels when he moves over a ledge doesn't that cancel the move instantly and let you do an aerial? That could be really beneficial, rather than a nerf, for getting places fast with little lag.

Obviously looking a lot more like his Brawl iteration than Melee though, but some of these things seem interesting! Shame that reflector and lazer are sounding worse than they are in Brawl though

 

[Mr.Random]

I don't think Up Smash was nerfed. It was just stale from the amount of times it was used. When fresh it killed Mario at 100%. Plus some stages have higher ceiling. But the other nerfs were so unnecessary.

 

[Rhus]

If you land on the ground before the last hit of the Dair (possibly an autocancel timing hopefully) wouldn't you still be able to follow it up? Did anyone test using the way it pops the enemy up to make a new combo?

Also if illusion cancels when he moves over a ledge doesn't that cancel the move instantly and let you do an aerial? That could be really beneficial, rather than a nerf, for getting places fast with little lag.

Obviously looking a lot more like his Brawl iteration than Melee though, but some of these things seem interesting! Shame that reflector and lazer are sounding worse than they are in Brawl though

I should've been more clear on his illusion. It stops at ledges. Meaning you still have the full lag, but it will not move past the edge of the platform.

And yeah, that's what I was unsure of on his Dair, if it's only the last hit that knocks up or when the move "finishes" by being cancelled by landing.

I also think Usmash isn't as nerfed as much as I thought. I think it's killpower was reduced slightly, but stages like the boxing ring and Wily Castle have HUGE ceilings.

 

[Rhus]

Excuse the double post, but I learned some stuff about Fox's laser and his Dair from watching Nintendo's Treehouse that sounds promising. I updated my changes post with what I learned, you can watch the match here. Starts at 24:43.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'm unfamiliar with Brawl Fox, what is Foxcopter?

 

[Rhus]

I'm unfamiliar with Brawl Fox, what is Foxcopter?

In Brawl, Fox's Fair was modified so that the 5 consecutive kicks he performed linked together more accurately as opposed to Melee, where it was basically impossible to land more than two.

In order to make this possible because of Fox's heavy fall speed, a hover effect was added to help him link the kicks together on all characters (not perfect, but certainly helped). This hover effect allowed Fox to perform a technique called the "Foxcopter," which involved using his Fair immediately after double jumping. The hover effect hoisted him upwards and made his double jump among the highest in the game and helped him recover.

 

[GUARD]

I'll mention this cuz I don't think it was mentioned yet. Fox has much better mobility now, at least when it comes to his Foxcopter. When I f-air, I may now easily move Fox away as opposed to only moving him forward or very slightly away. This might mean that he'll have an easier time getting back on stage from grabbing the ledge thanks to Fox having another option.

 

[Moon Monkey]

 

[M@v]

Imagine if Falco returns, and has this same trait (no helplessness on his side b)

Falco's side B meteors. Think about that for a sec; I'll let you image all the possibilities that I have.

 

[Rhus]

Imagine if Falco returns, and has this same trait (no helplessness on his side b)

Falco's side B meteors. Think about that for a sec; I'll let you image all the possibilities that I have.

I would honestly hope this isn't the case, Fox's Illusion is the only one without something special to it, so it would be nice if the increased mobility/recovery would be Fox's thing.

 

[Ultinarok]

What exactly was his blaster nerf? It doesn't cancel? I may be kind of a noob about this because I don't exactly get this even though Fox is one of my mains, because I run a hyper aggressive Fox and only use Blaster when the opponent is off stage recovering or is far away from me and not approaching.

 

[Rhus]

What exactly was his blaster nerf? It doesn't cancel? I may be kind of a noob about this because I don't exactly get this even though Fox is one of my mains, because I run a hyper aggressive Fox and only use Blaster when the opponent is off stage recovering or is far away from me and not approaching.

The blaster nerf is incredibly debilitating if it makes it to release. Fox's laser cancelling forced his opponents to approach him at all times and he was virtually impossible to camp because of his lasers and shine in Brawl. This is assuming that his other moves haven't had significant buffs to counterbalance it.

His Shine was fast and could be jumped out of when reflecting a projectile, and his lasers covered short hops and standing heights and were lagless, making it hard to punish but contributed to his huge mobility. Fox's greatest strength in Brawl was his fantastic defensive game and how he can limit his opponents options by forcing an approach.

This is also terribly bad for him because in Brawl, Fox had issues with actually approaching due to the removal of L-cancelling, jump cancelable shine etc. from Melee. His small hitboxes with fairly average priority often made his melee attacks unsafe on shield save a few, more limiting options like his retreating Nair. This made his overall appoach game very limited, which is why he benefited so greatly from having a cancelling projectile that moved fast and racked damage quickly and laglessly; it forced his opponents into the situation he didn't want to be in.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

The laser cancelling nerf really disappoints. It's unnecessary, anyone think there's hope that will be reverted by release? The space animals losing their laser cancelling....just , bye bye Fox and Falco.

 

[Rhus]

The laser cancelling nerf really disappoints. It's unnecessary, anyone think there's hope that will be reverted by release? The space animals losing their laser cancelling....just , bye bye Fox and Falco.

Well, if I recall correctly, Fox was believed to have lost his laser cancelling in Brawl at the demo, but instead truly had it at release.

That being said, Laser cancelling was no mistake, on Falco's profile on the official SSBB site it even says he enjoys hopping around firing his laser. There's no reason to take it out unless Fox has had some crazy buffs in other areas.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I appreciate the video, but those guys are ****ing scrubs. How can you assume that Fox is garbage because his shine isn't good? It hasn't been good in 6 years, bruh.

In the video he did an Auto canceled Short Hopped Uair, a dashing pivot F-tilt. His Dair can pillar people into air combos. Not to mention his Jab finisher has heavy stun. Homeboy didn't even try to illusion cancel mid air to see if there were additional properties to see if he can follow up with an aerial, which may be possible if it carries momentum like Brawl.

Fox has been solid in every smash game, and it looks like he will be solid in this one.

 

[jr22]

It's really awesome that illusion doesn't put fox in a free fall, now his recovery just got twice as better. Also , illusion cancel to an follow up aerial would seem pretty nice.

 

[M@v]

Couldn't really tell 100% because crazy FFA, but it felt like the jump boost from fox's fair is still in.

 

[Rhus]

Guess what? Fox's Usmash killed Rosalina at 77% clean @ 6:00.

Dtilt is also faster than Brawl I see.

 

[Mr.Random]

Guess what? Fox's Usmash killed Rosalina at 77% clean @ 6:00.

Dtilt is also faster than Brawl I see.

You're right. I heard that build was newer so maybe they buffed it. At E3 it did 16 but now it does 17

 

[Bedoop]

Guess what? Fox's Usmash killed Rosalina at 77% clean @ 6:00.

Dtilt is also faster than Brawl I see.

That's actually kinda cool.
Make Fox/Falco like Little Mac/Jigglypuff, respectively.
'Cuz, you know, Falco prefers the air. :B

 

[TryHardOliver]

His final smash is OP AS ****!

 

[Infamous_Prime]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liXicPX6SqE

@3:10 he nairs, and then it seems to autocancel and he jabs. Then, he jabs again and does the whole jab combo. Notice the jabs come out slower, like in melee, making it seem possible to do such things as jab->grab or jab->usmash. Also, note at at the end of the jab kick combo, @3:14, he seems to cancel it and then do a ftilt. Now, granted these guys are both really bad, but I feel like this match, as painful as it is to watch, gives a lot of insight on what fox may look like. Granted, its still a demo so anything could change, but theres always hope.

 

[TryHardOliver]

His up B is underpowered