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Being "Cheap"

Luthien

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
792
Location
Victoria, British Columbia
O.o Surprised I am by Luthien. +1 for you.

My advice is the same as Luthien's really. The only reason I would think AllanT want's to play him is so he can find someone who is also "dedicated" to smash, and thus he can have fun playing his best vs his friends best.

The only other reason you could possibly want to play him is just to have someone to play with (I've been playing comps for 3 months now, I know what that feels like >_>) but that would be a self-defeating reason.

Why? Because, a person who is willing to play smash and is "dedicated" (aka mature, aka non-scrub mindset) will play smash with you seriously.

A person who is willing to play smash but says "anything you do that wins is cheap" is only there to destroy you. His only purpose is to make you satisfy him. He wants to win, because in his mind he is entitled to it. Because of this insanity, I don't have a clue as to why you would even want to play with him, let alone bend over backwards to have him waste your time.

That's why I suggest Sirlin's site. Who cares if that gives him the idea that you think he is a scrub. Truth is truth. If you think the statement "Truth hurts" is applicable to your life in anyway, quit living a lie.

The only possible reason you could have to go easy on him is if he genuinely wants to learn how to play and thus you show him the ropes, so to speak. Go over theory with him, go over game mechanics, go over everything. Make him question, watch videos, learn, put effort in, etc.

A huge pointer is Isai's famous saying: "Don't get hit." A very simple and powerful tool that would help your friend immensely. Ask him why he's doing certain things. Watch him play against a computer, ask him why he did this, did that. Help him practice AT's. I learned to wavedash by myself with Link. Everytime I killed a computer, I would try to wavedash while they were respawning. Since you have two controllers, you can just make an empty game and go over it with him. None of the advanced tech's are hard, they just need patience and a desire to improve.

Though Luthien is probably correct on one thing though. Be gentle and such. I have a very abrupt method of dealing with people because I don't have the desire to mold people from immature to mature. I would rather shoot an immature scrub on sight than deal with them in any way.
Yeah, sometimes I'd rather shoot them too. Basically, AllanT, I'm telling you how to get your friend in the right mindset. I'm just trying to help you keep your friend from abandoning smash altogether; my friend was very close to it. But eventually, he grew up because he was inclined to, not because everyone was telling him that he was wrong and such. He'll be far more willing to listen to you/Sirlin after he's realised that Smash can be fun AND a challenge.

Jazriel is telling you what to do after your friend is in the right mindset. Follow his advice after you've won your friend's respect (because he clearly doesn't respect you) back. Just make sure your friend is willing to do this with a positive attitude. That's about it.

Edit: YES! DO WHAT RED EXODUS IS DOING. Avoid gimping him the whole match (give him hope, because no one wants to play if they only lose), and turn up the heat later.
 

Yoshi'stheBombers7

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Messages
436
Location
NH ... >_<
OK, I understand what you are trying to say, Luthien, but I experiencED the same problem. I have a friend who does the exact same thing, which is complaining that everything I use against him is cheap. I tell him over and over that it's in the game, so use it, and he won't listen to me. I asked him if he wanted to learn advance techs, and he refused. When this happens, all hope is lost.

Do your best to help him understand this, and suggest to teach him. After this...well...there isn't much you can do. Sorry.
 

Brasil

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
45
It sounds like he was trying to send you a message. "Say a totally new player, one who has never played the game before, kept getting killed by you because you kept using Yoshi's B down? What would that be called? It would be cheap because he couldn't do anything about it."

Maybe he feels like the totally new player. Maybe he's just frusterated with losing to a move. Instead of trying to tell him that he's wrong, lighten up on him a bit; postive encouragement is better than outright blowing his opinions off any day. Next time you play smash and use Falcon's down-b, simply tell him (kindly) how to avoid it.

If worst comes to worse, though, and he still can't avoid it, ***KILL*** HIM.
Fixed. And by "kill him" I don't mean in-game. I mean literally. He sounds like a waste of space.

I mean...anyone who would call Yoshi's vB cheap needs to be Euthanized. I can understand a completely new, green player getting caught by it a few times, but if someone has played Melee enough to main Marth and do reasonably well at it, from what I can tell? Yeah.....even as DK he should have the sense to at least block it.
 

Seikishidan Soru

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
260
This is obviously a joke thread. Falcon's down B doesn't kill anybody.

Seriously though, just teach him how to counter you whenever you get a chance. You get to prove him wrong, he gets better, both of you have fun learning the game. Everyone wins.
 

Newtwarrior

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2007
Messages
61
Location
Jersey
"You're Cheap!" = LOL I SUCK
L2play.
I hate MANY a things in Melee, this including falco spikes and Ness sparkles ( which if you never played a ness ..erm GOOD ness player you'll realize that it has ALOT of priority)

anyway your friend needs to quit complaining and deal with it yo :D
 

Luthien

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
792
Location
Victoria, British Columbia
OK, I understand what you are trying to say, Luthien, but I experiencED the same problem. I have a friend who does the exact same thing, which is complaining that everything I use against him is cheap. I tell him over and over that it's in the game, so use it, and he won't listen to me. I asked him if he wanted to learn advance techs, and he refused. When this happens, all hope is lost.

Do your best to help him understand this, and suggest to teach him. After this...well...there isn't much you can do. Sorry.
Yeah, that's too true. Once they refuse to learn from you, it's pretty much over. It entirely depends on how seriously they take the game. If they plan on playing once a month, I wouldn't put to much effort into it.

The rest of this is directed at AllanT:

But, you'd be surprised at what taking a break over night can do for the scrub. Hope is renewed, their confidence (or overconfidence) replenished, and they're usually willing to give it another shot. If they don't take outright advice from you, be more subtle. That usually means that you've either hurt their pride or they really just don't care about the game all that much. So, there are a couple of things you can do for the first part:

Don't say it, do it. Show them how it's done. They'll copy and think that they've learned on their own, and they can take pride in that. I know this seems like you're feeding the ego of someone who's not worth it, but come on, who hasn't been like this at some point.

Option two: back it down a tad. Like in my first post, slow it down a bit until they can counter what you're doing. Then, pick up the pace again. They'll naturally improve slowly to beat your improving tactics. Your friend may not even notice he's improving until he has (mine didn't).

Option three: lose trivial arguements. The less, the better. You'll be able to come back to those debates later on in life when your friend is willing to listen to your side. If you let him win, it doesn't matter. Just focus on getting him to improve.

Now, for those of you who don't understand WHY I want AllanT's friend to improve, I'll let you know that there is a method to my madness.

First: the best way to learn is to teach. You may improve yourself as you wait for him to catch up to your level.

Second: You want a challenge, right? At this point in time, your matches are going to have to be about him. However, if all goes well and he DOES in fact change his mindset, he will get stronger and your battles will become far more productive. His improvement is good for YOU too. You are going to have to make some sacrifices, but its truly worth it in the end. You'll both look back on this and laugh... if you stay positive, patient, understanding, and humble.

The point I'm trying to make is, you ARE going to have to cater to him for a while. But he'll see the error of his ways on his own, and then he'll be really embarrased when he remembers how he acted for the rest of his life. He'll mature, I'm sure of it (if MY friend could, YOURS can).
 

Haruno Kotetsu

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2006
Messages
507
Location
Princeton, WV
Apparently, this kid johns a lot. I bet if you did something else to him he'd still call this that and the other cheap, because he can't do anything about it, because..

He sucks.

Point made, i'm out.
 

GLCH

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
122
Location
Madison Heights, MI
Up throw rest isn't cheap at all.. You can DI if you're not stupid.. Or they just do it really fast and or get lucky.. Then, you just pound her in the face if it wasn't the last stock.. I think there kind of is things that are "cheap".. But I wouldn't use that word.. I would use.. "better than other moves".

I.e.
1. Wobbles
2. Shine
3. Marth's forward smash and fair
4. Peach's down smash
5. Chain grab

Almost every character can counter another character and there will always be tiers and different move lists..

p.s.
But it sounds like your friend is just mad because he's a n00b..
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2003
Messages
12,731
Location
Bellevue, Washington
Your friend is bad at the game.

Just give him counter examples: Is it cheap to move the same pawn twice in a row in chess? Is it cheap to perform a lunge step in soccer if your opponent has never seen it before? Is it cheap to dunk during a high school basketball game if no other player on the court can dunk? Is it cheap to study for a school test a month in advance? So long as you aren't breaking any real rules (IE not rules just made up in your opponents head) then you aren't being cheap or cheating.
 

Jazriel

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
837
Location
Nepean, ON
Your friend is bad at the game.

Just give him counter examples: Is it cheap to move the same pawn twice in a row in chess? Is it cheap to perform a lunge step in soccer if your opponent has never seen it before? Is it cheap to dunk during a high school basketball game if no other player on the court can dunk? Is it cheap to study for a school test a month in advance? So long as you aren't breaking any real rules (IE not rules just made up in your opponents head) then you aren't being cheap or cheating.
>_> You don't seem to understand. It's not that he thinks it's cheap, it's that he thinks whatever makes him lose is cheap. You're making the fatal error, fighting the illogical with logical. It doesn't matter how sound your argument is, it doesn't matter how simple and easy it is to understand. The fact that this idiot says "whatever you do to beat me is cheap" proves what I said earlier. He wants only to destroy you. He doesn't live to live, he merely lives to destroy. He's obsessed making you bend over backwards for him, so he can waste your time.

That's why I said, with such a degenerate and evil person, if he's not willing to mature and learn to play intelligently, just drop him. There's no point in putting effort into it as that will just make him hate you more.

The thing that I would do, is play a ditto match versus him, and only use what he uses. If he stands there, stand there. If he fair spams, fair spam him back. If he counters, use counter. Though since you're better/smarter/more mature you'll actually be able to use counter properly.

This is where the real test is. If you beat him using the same character and the exact same moves (literally. EXACT SAME MOVES. If he doesn't know how to recover with uB, don't recover with uB yourself) and he calls it cheap, euthanize him for society, please.

If he doesn't think it's cheap and realizes that you're just better and he has a lot to learn, there's hope (albeit a very small amount).

That's pretty much all you can do.
 

Luthien

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
792
Location
Victoria, British Columbia
>_> You don't seem to understand. It's not that he thinks it's cheap, it's that he thinks whatever makes him lose is cheap. You're making the fatal error, fighting the illogical with logical. It doesn't matter how sound your argument is, it doesn't matter how simple and easy it is to understand. The fact that this idiot says "whatever you do to beat me is cheap" proves what I said earlier. He wants only to destroy you. He doesn't live to live, he merely lives to destroy. He's obsessed making you bend over backwards for him, so he can waste your time.
Taking it a tad seriously, don't you think? He's just johning. Let he who has not johned cast the first stone.

That's why I said, with such a degenerate and evil person, if he's not willing to mature and learn to play intelligently, just drop him. There's no point in putting effort into it as that will just make him hate you more.
That's up for AllanT to decide. We don't know the whole story; it seems like they're friends outside of Smash, so there's got to be some good in him.

The thing that I would do, is play a ditto match versus him, and only use what he uses. If he stands there, stand there. If he fair spams, fair spam him back. If he counters, use counter. Though since you're better/smarter/more mature you'll actually be able to use counter properly.
"Since you're the better/smarter/MORE MATURE..."
That's right, you're supposed to be more mature. Don't play his game; play yours. Just make it so that your friend wants to play your game too. If he realises that you're having fun, sure, he'll act the same for a while, but fun is just as contageous as a bad attitude. Eventually, things will turn around. Don't expect to see results right away, though.

This is where the real test is. If you beat him using the same character and the exact same moves (literally. EXACT SAME MOVES. If he doesn't know how to recover with uB, don't recover with uB yourself) and he calls it cheap, euthanize him for society, please.

If he doesn't think it's cheap and realizes that you're just better and he has a lot to learn, there's hope (albeit a very small amount).
He does know that you're better, he just isn't admitting it out loud. There is hope; just be patient.

That's pretty much all you can do.
For the last time, no. Get him in the right mindset, then show him Sirlin's guide.
 

Yoshi'stheBombers7

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Messages
436
Location
NH ... >_<
Let he who has not johned cast the first stone.
lol That's great Luthien. :chuckle: Of course, this doesn't mean we can't help him, even though at one point or another I'm sure we've all johned. It really does depend on how seriously he takes the game.

Cheap = Good.
You bet. If it's cheap, well, tell him that nothing is stopping him from using it. If he refrains, that's his fault.
 

AlcyoNite

Smash Champion
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
2,332
Location
**** Triangle, NC
>_> You don't seem to understand. It's not that he thinks it's cheap, it's that he thinks whatever makes him lose is cheap. You're making the fatal error, fighting the illogical with logical. It doesn't matter how sound your argument is, it doesn't matter how simple and easy it is to understand. The fact that this idiot says "whatever you do to beat me is cheap" proves what I said earlier. He wants only to destroy you. He doesn't live to live, he merely lives to destroy. He's obsessed making you bend over backwards for him, so he can waste your time.

That's why I said, with such a degenerate and evil person, if he's not willing to mature and learn to play intelligently, just drop him. There's no point in putting effort into it as that will just make him hate you more.

The thing that I would do, is play a ditto match versus him, and only use what he uses. If he stands there, stand there. If he fair spams, fair spam him back. If he counters, use counter. Though since you're better/smarter/more mature you'll actually be able to use counter properly.

This is where the real test is. If you beat him using the same character and the exact same moves (literally. EXACT SAME MOVES. If he doesn't know how to recover with uB, don't recover with uB yourself) and he calls it cheap, euthanize him for society, please.

If he doesn't think it's cheap and realizes that you're just better and he has a lot to learn, there's hope (albeit a very small amount).

That's pretty much all you can do.
I think u've got the right idea

by doing this, ur showing ur friend that smash is more deeply a game about skill, mindgames (reading your opponent), and knowledge of the game. For which fact we are even on this website; smash is a great game. what makes it great? a playing field that encompasses multiple variables, such as characters and stages that combine to form a (relatively) balanced game. of course, no game is perfect, and there will be inherent advantages rooted within variables of the game that can be exploited, but then there are variables such as DI and combo breaking (which requires knowledge of the "physics" of the game, hence requiring experience and skill) that allow for retaliation against "most" of these exploits. Again, a major part of this whole smashboards community.

Cheap? I think that's hardly a usable term for anything but wobbling. Cheap implies that minimal effort and skill can automatically conquer the enemy, and that is simply not true of anything in the game (again, except wobbling, but you get the point). Counters exist to anything that is inherently advantageous against the opponent, and omg-wtf how is falcon kick cheap???

Your friend seems to be using irrational thought to avoid accepting that he is not as skilled as u in ssbm. Period.

If u tell him that and he is discouraged/angered so that he doesnt play again, then fine. all of this peaceful carressing stuff so that he gets better is bs. ice must be cracked, and if he doest go crying like a b**** after you tell him that simple fact, then he is worthy of learning from u and eventually growing in smash skill with u over time.
 

Silhouette

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
1,830
Location
Springfield/Athens, OH
he mains marth a yet he calls yoshi cheap?!?!
and his example of spiting nubs being cheap is backwards, if anyone could pick up the game and compete with those who have been playing for awhile then that would be cheap.
 

SlayerOfEvil

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
98
It's a sick triangle!

Just tell your friend if its so cheap, he should use it. Then, once you beat him he'll have nothing to say.
Wouldn't say that. He'll still probably complain...something like "you need no skill to use it though!" ridiculous things like that.

Wow, never gave that triangle a thought...
 
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