Being "Cheap"

[AllanT]

Alright let me first say that this may be a little confusing, but please bear with me and feel free to ask any questions.

I have a neighbor who I often play smash with. He tends to use the term "cheap" a lot, saying that Yoshi's B down is "cheap", C. Falcon's down B is "cheap", and any move that can be easily used while easily killing another player is "cheap".

I told him that this was not true, Sakurai would never make any character or any move superior over any other move. Say Fox's down B killed all players on screen, guess who would start using Fox? Everybody. It would take the point out of using any other character in the game.

And yet he still disagreed. He threw an example at me that went something like this:

"Say a totally new player, one who has never played the game before, kept getting killed by you because you kept using Yoshi's B down? What would that be called? It would be cheap because he couldn't do anything about it."

Now if you ask me that's totally absurd. If they're new to the game, they don't know how to play it! I told him that being "cheap" to new players cannot be possible because they can't do anything about it! Being "cheap" isn't possible in any way!

So as I was leaving he HAD to have the last word and be dominant, and he said:

"You can easily be cheap to new players because you keep killing them and they don't do anything about it.

I didn't have time to respond, as he had closed the door, but that COMPLETELY confused me. Doing that is the exact opposite of being cheap, which I had clearly stated before.

And I'm sure most of you here will agree with me, you can't be "cheap" in smash because they made the game to let you do the same move over and over again if you wanted to. My neighbor's thoughts of being "cheap" are simply his own opinion, but he still won't play smash if I do the same move twice in a row or more.

 

[Xsyven]

There's no such thing as cheap in SSBM. You've gatta do what you've gatta do to win.

People think 'cheap' is simple moves that kill easily. People just forget that they can fight back, just as cheap.

 

[AllanT]

Exactly! That's what I tried to tell him, but he says that new people cannot fight back and be as cheap because they're new. That's crazy, they don't know the game so they cannot fight back AT ALL. They have to learn how the game plays first.

 

[Xanthyr]

He's meaning that you're being cheap by being better than him. Sure, he can feel like he's being cheaped out because he doesn't know what to do, as he said himself more than once. He wants you to be easier on him. I suggest teaching him how to better himself in the game so you can have a better challenge and he has more fun.

Teach him how to counter you, that'll make both of you start evolving.

 

[AllanT]

No it's not that he's a bad player, he's beaten me a couple- scratch that- many times before (He's a Marth main). He just used new players as an example (which was stupid from- well what I said before.)

 

[Xsyven]

Though my smash buddy and I don't believe in the term 'cheap', we do believe in 'playing gay.'

We need a better name for that, but some guy called it that in Vegas, and it just stuck with us. Basically, playing gay is taking advantage of 'cheap' moves. Extreme chain grabbing, wobbling, Jigglypuff's U-throw to rests on space animals, etc.

We do them in tournaments, but in friendlies, they're just not fun. So when we're playing each other, and I start wobbling him, he'd probably say: "Stop playing gay."

We need to find a better term. =/

 

[Junpappy]

Move to a different neighborhood.

Jigglypuff's U-throw to rests on space animals

I beg to differ on that move being considered "cheap".

 

[AllanT]

Move to a different neighborhood.



I beg to differ on how that move is called "cheap".

Phff I still have other people in the neighborhood to smash with.

Though my smash buddy and I don't believe in the term 'cheap', we do believe in 'playing gay.'

We need a better name for that, but some guy called it that in Vegas, and it just stuck with us. Basically, playing gay is taking advantage of 'cheap' moves. Extreme chain grabbing, wobbling, Jigglypuff's U-throw to rests on space animals, etc.

We do them in tournaments, but in friendlies, they're just not fun. So when we're playing each other, and I start wobbling him, he'd probably say: "Stop playing gay."

We need to find a better term. =/

Well I don't do that stuff- neither of us use the very complicated and pro-like strategies. He just can't stand it when I use, say G&W's Dair, multiple times.

 

[-Darc-]

I bet I can guess CREA's opinion on wobbles then.

 

[Yoshi'stheBombers7]

Actually, I think there ARE cheap moves. And you wanna know what else? THEY SHOULD BE USED!

Cheapness is great! It doesn't matter if it's cheap! Use it BECAUSE it's cheap!

 

[AllanT]

Actually, I think there ARE cheap moves. And you wanna know what else? THEY SHOULD BE USED!

Cheapness is great! It doesn't matter if it's cheap! Use it BECAUSE it's cheap!

See I could agree with that, but he (as well as a few of my other smash buddies) will simply argue that it's too cheap to play against me.

 

[Samus Syndrome]

Falcon's down b= "Cheap"????, that's the worst move he has, and Yoshi's down b is hardly better, they are easily evaded, even by noobs. As for the whole "cheap" thing, I will use anything that helps me win. As is always the best case though, I would just smash w/ someone else.

 

[AllanT]

Falcon's down b= "Cheap"????, that's the worst move he has, and Yoshi's down b is hardly better, they are easily evaded, even by noobs. As for the whole "cheap" thing, I will use anything that helps me win. As is always the best case though, I would just smash w/ someone else.

Yes I have to agree with you. Anyone could just do a meteor on Yoshi to start killing him, then be "cheap" on him with your meteors!

And very few people in my community smash.

 

[Yoshi'stheBombers7]

It's in the game, thus use it to your advantage and win.

 

[Junpappy]

It's in the game, thus use it to your advantage and win.

How would you feel about losing to someone just because you got grabbed 4 times?

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Cheapness is amazing. They're the key to win.
Cheapness can come from, running away, to using attacks that combo like mad. Maybe making your opponent get off the stage at a low damage.

Why do we play cheap? Because we're playing to win, isn't that the custom of the game?

If he can't beat something that he thinks is "cheap" he just really need to learn how to counter it. If you keep rolling into Peach's down smash, stop rolling towards Peach and so something else. If you know you've gotten hit by an attack twice, you know that attacks gonna come again, so run/roll/jump away, because running away, not only is useful, but it's cheap.

So apparently cheap is everything but killing yourself. So if you're gonna say Falcon's down B is cheap after being hit with with over and over. Think of how you could dodge the attack. What're you doing that's wrong. Are you not shielding? Are you trying to attack and got hit again? And you chasing him into getting hit?

Woo! This came out of my head so the grammar probably sucks.

EDIT: Isai uses Falcon's Down B. 15 good damage, and sends you far (So you can run away from punishment)... Not the best to use, but randomly in a very long ocassion press down B. Friendlies though, xD.

 

[Tonyman]

'Cheap' is just a term, like Xsyven said, use to define a move thats is simple and is able to kill easily, and people tend to extend its meaning to "Something that will most likely get you a kill", like combos, lets say some new people to the game look at a few 0-death combos, first it'd be scary, they'd be amazed, and heres where it goes different, because some poeple might think you need a lot of skill to do so, some might think thats its just plain 'cheap', some might think the comboed opponent wasn't really good, but what happens here, and everywhere else is the difference of opinions, for example about in Brawl, for there being clones or no, there will always be people who differs to others opinion, so my guess is thats your neighbor isn't as skilled as you are and loses pretty much always, and uses that term as an excuse to losing, which might be because he isn't thats much into the game to try to get better, or maybe just isnt competitive, or in some cases is just a bad loser.

The other side of the game besides fun, is winning, so if you are having fun, but can't win too much or something, abuse the 'cheap' moves and get a win-win situation out of the game, unless you're not playing too seriously against your neighbor.

PS: Something fun/annoying you can do is, tell him to try these 'cheapness' and tell him he'll like it, then choose whatever character and do nothing but dodge and run, he'll get frustrated and start complaining, then keep dodging, but then punish his 'cheap' moves, thats way you get fun, and he gets to realize those moves arent so 'cheap' and can be countered.

 

[teeman92]

There's no such thing as cheap in SSBM. You've gatta do what you've gatta do to win.

People think 'cheap' is simple moves that kill easily. People just forget that they can fight back, just as cheap.

you stole ny quote..

 

[Xsyven]

you stole ny quote..

Who says it's yours? Everyone says that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How would you feel about losing to someone just because you got grabbed 4 times?

Then don't get grabbed. That's basically how Fox vs. Marth on FD works.

OP-Just tell him to try these 'cheap' moves himself against you. Then counter those 'cheap' moves. Then he might realize that they're not cheap.

 

[nashdar13]

Teach him the game and go easy on him and show him how to play well and teach him some strategies while going easy on him so he can learn like it took you a while to learn when you first got the game...

 

[AllanT]

A. He's not bad at the game, though i do beat him most times.

B. He doesn't want to learn the game too much, he just plays for fun.

C. I TRIED to tell him to be cheap, i kept dodging, then he brought up the part about being new players to the game. he said something like "if your new and someone keeps doing the same attack on you, you can't do anything about it."

THAT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE NEW TO THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY IT YET!!!!!

for some reason when i told him that i "confused" him.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'm glad I don't have friends like that or I'd tell them shut the hell up or put down the dam controller if he's gonna whine about something he's wrong about.

Your friend needs to wake up, new people suck because they're new, that's why they have to learn. That's like saying, my boss got he job because he has degrees that I don't have and there's nothing I can do so he's cheap for using them.

I can't stand people like that, I just stay far, far, far, FAR away.

 

[AllanT]

I'm glad I don't have friends like that or I'd tell them shut the hell up or put down the dam controller if he's gonna whine about something he's wrong about.

Your friend needs to wake up, new people suck because they're new, that's why they have to learn. That's like saying, my boss got he job because he has degrees that I don't have and there's nothing I can do so he's cheap for using them.

I can't stand people like that, I just stay far, far, far, FAR away.

EXACTLY! He really does need to wake up.

 

[MR333]

people call moves "cheap" when they cant easily beat them. i love it when somebody pulls off a combo that's hard for me to beat. it gives me the fun of challenge

 

[Gardex]

You could try this:
Walk to him. Grabb him. Take him to the computer. And show him this thread.

Then he'll see that he's wrong.

Problem solved(Meh. Not really. Just wanted to say that)

 

[4 Aces]

Cheapness is amazing. They're the key to win.
Cheapness can come from, running away, to using attacks that combo like mad. Maybe making your opponent get off the stage at a low damage.

Why do we play cheap? Because we're playing to win, isn't that the custom of the game?

If he can't beat something that he thinks is "cheap" he just really need to learn how to counter it. If you keep rolling into Peach's down smash, stop rolling towards Peach and so something else. If you know you've gotten hit by an attack twice, you know that attacks gonna come again, so run/roll/jump away, because running away, not only is useful, but it's cheap.

So apparently cheap is everything but killing yourself. So if you're gonna say Falcon's down B is cheap after being hit with with over and over. Think of how you could dodge the attack. What're you doing that's wrong. Are you not shielding? Are you trying to attack and got hit again? And you chasing him into getting hit?

Woo! This came out of my head so the grammar probably sucks.

EDIT: Isai uses Falcon's Down B. 15 good damage, and sends you far (So you can run away from punishment)... Not the best to use, but randomly in a very long ocassion press down B. Friendlies though, xD.

Stole the words right out of my mouth.

Falcon's Down B = Cheap? <-- that's very funny. You'd think it'd be simple to avoid. I once saw my sister use Link and shot arrows when my cousin did down+b with Ganondorf: It stopped him in his tracks, then he did it again and she dodge rolled toward him to escape. She rinsed and repeated that sequence like 20 million times then finished him off. He was 3 stocked that day (we play by 3 lives w/o time). There was no advanced tech involved, and I had a good laugh.

 

[choknater]

see sig. YAYUHZ

 

[AllanT]

You could try this:
Walk to him. Grabb him. Take him to the computer. And show him this thread.

Then he'll see that he's wrong.

Problem solved(Meh. Not really. Just wanted to say that)

Tried it. He wouldn't come because he didn't believe I posted it and he knows I'm addicted to smash and did not want to see it from a "pro's perspective"; which is stupid because, yes, many people on this site are good, but very few are actually PRO.

 

[Veysey]

"The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing." - David Sirlin (referenced from http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm)

Truer words have never been spoken. I suggest you direct your friend to this site and tell him to read just about everything. Then he can decide whether he wants to remain a scrub or want to become something more. If he doesn't want to 'evolve', then its only going to drag your game down - sorry to say.

 

[greenblob]

Try using examples from other games/activities. Is spiking "cheap" in volleyball? How about spinning in ping-pong? Try using something that he's good at.

 

[Luthien]

It sounds like he was trying to send you a message. "Say a totally new player, one who has never played the game before, kept getting killed by you because you kept using Yoshi's B down? What would that be called? It would be cheap because he couldn't do anything about it."

Maybe he feels like the totally new player. Maybe he's just frusterated with losing to a move. Instead of trying to tell him that he's wrong, lighten up on him a bit; postive encouragement is better than outright blowing his opinions off any day. Next time you play smash and use Falcon's down-b, simply tell him (kindly) how to avoid it.

If worst comes to worse, though, and he still can't avoid it, LET HIM. *Gasp* "Go easy on someone? No way!"

Yes, that's what I normally think too, because the point of the game is to win. However, you also want your friend to improve, no? So, lower the standards a bit, then gradually raise them as time passes and he begins to improve again. Think of it like this: you can't play a piece by Bach if you can't play a scale on the piano, right? Well, he can't wavedash out of the way if he can't air dodge. It may take a while, but letting him get the basics down will allow him to subconsiously come up with solutions to "cheap" tactics on his own.

He only considers some moves cheap, so there is hope for him. What I mean by that is, he doesn't consider Ganondorf's Neutral-B cheap, right? Because he knows how to fight it. So basically, he only considers moves that he THINKS HE CAN'T FIGHT cheap. Once he learns how to fight them, he won't consider them cheap anymore. Tell him how to fight them.

Be careful, though. His ego may be hurt if you offer advice the wrong way; no one wants their opponent to think that they are better than them. Just word your advice carefully, keep in mind that tone of voice and body language is everything, and perhaps only offer hints instead of advice. Don't argue with him. Agree with some of his logic, and correct the wrong parts kindly. That should work. It worked for me (the exact same situation happened to me a month ago). Hope that helps.

 

[Vall3y]

everyone should read sirlin's play to win book:
sirlin.net/ptw

 

[Jazriel]

Luthien's post is a perfect example of why some people are pure evil and the most vile examples of pathetic attitudes. (Luthien isn't, but what he says is true, and what he says applies to these people.)

Basically, your neighbour is a pathetic loser who isn't worth your time. There is one thing you can do right now and two outcomes.

First, show him Sirlin's site and articles, maybe even his book. I haven't read his book but you get the idea. I suggest Sirlin because it's explained in a very good way that I doubt you can replicate.

The two outcomes? Either your neighbour is mature-but-confused and will "see the light" and stop being so stupid. (Good outcome)

Or your neighbour's evil, pathetic, nature will be revealed and he will consider you the antichrist (no joke).

C'est la vie.

In the chance that your neighbour isn't some ****ed up pathetic evil monstrosity (very low chance), you should guide him how to be more mature. This takes effort and he will often revert back to his evil, degenerate, ways, but with time and effort you could heavily influence his path to non-scrubdom.

 

[OrlanduEX]

The "cheap" or unfair moves and tactics in Smash Bros are really what make it interesting. Mastering such tactics and learning to overcome them fosters competition and drives us to become the best we possibly can. I think your friend just needs to give up his self-imposed honor code learn a few "cheap" tactics of his own.

 

[Luthien]

Luthien's post is a perfect example of why some people are pure evil and the most vile examples of pathetic attitudes. (Luthien isn't, but what he says is true, and what he says applies to these people.)

Phew, that was close. But Jazriel, my posts goal was to point out how GOOD his friend is inside. The fact that his friend is getting frusturated shows he has a desire to win, and therefore improve, no matter how deep down.

Basically, your neighbour is a pathetic loser who isn't worth your time. There is one thing you can do right now and two outcomes.

Wrong attitude, people! Love, mercy, peace! C'mon! *Puts on tiedye shirt, peace symbols on pants*.

First, show him Sirlin's site and articles, maybe even his book. I haven't read his book but you get the idea. I suggest Sirlin because it's explained in a very good way that I doubt you can replicate.

AllanT, DO NOT SHOW HIM SIRLIN'S GUIDE. It is a good guide, and just what he needs, but think about the message you are sending to him by making him read that! From your post, I can easily tell you that HE WILL NOT LEARN FROM IT. He will simply get angry, and your chances of "converting" him will drop even further. Calling him a scrub WILL NOT IMPROVE THE SITUATION. It may be true, but that doesn't make it appropriate, especially if your goal is to make him understand.

The two outcomes? Either your neighbour is mature-but-confused and will "see the light" and stop being so stupid. (Good outcome)

Won't happen. I can tell you right now, that WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Or your neighbour's evil, pathetic, nature will be revealed and he will consider you the antichrist (no joke).

C'est la vie.

In the chance that your neighbour isn't some ****ed up pathetic evil monstrosity (very low chance), you should guide him how to be more mature. This takes effort and he will often revert back to his evil, degenerate, ways, but with time and effort you could heavily influence his path to non-scrubdom.

The negative in this is absolutely going to happen. I have unbelievable experience with this; my friend's name? John. Was that an omen, or what? Your friend is going respond just like mine was going to. Your friend is immature, so you're going to have to be twice as mature than you normally are to make up for it. Stay humble; people can detect insincerity/feelings of superiority very easily. Stay kind; he will respond hundreds of times better to positive things than negative.

INTRODUCE HIM TO SIRLIN LATER, WHEN HE IS WILLING TO ACCEPT THE INFORMATION. THAT KIND OF GUIDE WILL NOT WORK IF THE ONE WHO'S READING IT DOESN'T WANT TO READ IT FROM THE START.

Your friend doesn't think he's wrong. You don't think that you're wrong. Argueing will not solve that, nor will outnumbering him (did you really ask him to read this thread? Boy, you're screwed now. Good job repairing THAT damage).

Jazriel, your advice is good for someone who is mature. AllanT's friend is not. Therefore, an alternate route must be taken.

 

[Jazriel]

O.o Surprised I am by Luthien. +1 for you.

My advice is the same as Luthien's really. The only reason I would think AllanT want's to play him is so he can find someone who is also "dedicated" to smash, and thus he can have fun playing his best vs his friends best.

The only other reason you could possibly want to play him is just to have someone to play with (I've been playing comps for 3 months now, I know what that feels like >_>) but that would be a self-defeating reason.

Why? Because, a person who is willing to play smash and is "dedicated" (aka mature, aka non-scrub mindset) will play smash with you seriously.

A person who is willing to play smash but says "anything you do that wins is cheap" is only there to destroy you. His only purpose is to make you satisfy him. He wants to win, because in his mind he is entitled to it. Because of this insanity, I don't have a clue as to why you would even want to play with him, let alone bend over backwards to have him waste your time.

That's why I suggest Sirlin's site. Who cares if that gives him the idea that you think he is a scrub. Truth is truth. If you think the statement "Truth hurts" is applicable to your life in anyway, quit living a lie.

The only possible reason you could have to go easy on him is if he genuinely wants to learn how to play and thus you show him the ropes, so to speak. Go over theory with him, go over game mechanics, go over everything. Make him question, watch videos, learn, put effort in, etc.

A huge pointer is Isai's famous saying: "Don't get hit." A very simple and powerful tool that would help your friend immensely. Ask him why he's doing certain things. Watch him play against a computer, ask him why he did this, did that. Help him practice AT's. I learned to wavedash by myself with Link. Everytime I killed a computer, I would try to wavedash while they were respawning. Since you have two controllers, you can just make an empty game and go over it with him. None of the advanced tech's are hard, they just need patience and a desire to improve.

Though Luthien is probably correct on one thing though. Be gentle and such. I have a very abrupt method of dealing with people because I don't have the desire to mold people from immature to mature. I would rather shoot an immature scrub on sight than deal with them in any way.

 

[Amarkov]

I managed to not notice that there was more than one page. Oops.

 

[_Phloat_]

I had this same problem with a friend. IM him or call him or something, and ask him to tell you what move is not "cheap" by his standards. Then learn to abuse it agaisnt him, and pwn him with hit. Once he starts crying, tell him to name another move, and kill him with it a lot. Don't worry, he can't avoid yoshi's down B, you should be able to hit him with anything. If he names something you just can't hit with, like ganon's up tilt, then just kill him with whatever character he is using. If he eventually gets the hint that you are going to win unless he stops with the cheap crap, then you will have a good smash buddy.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'm really lucky, I have a friend who I used to smash with before I moved away [I live on an island, we still kept in touch but I'd have to get my mom to drive me to him because it was too far to walk or catch bus]. When I moved back my gamecube went kaput in less than a week, right at the beginning of the weekend [son of a ***** could have broken after the weekend] so I couldn't play smash with him anymore [obviously].

A year [or 2] later I got a Wii so I can play smash again and he came over to play, at that time I was practicing SHFFL and WDing as well as spiking and meteoring. I was kinda worried that he'd be too afraid to play but I convinced him to go a couple rounds and it was great, he lost a lot of skill but he still wants to learn to WD and stuff after he gets better again.

I was really surprised because he never seemed like he'd want to go that far even after all that time. Hopefully he won't lose heart when he plays more. I'll just avoid gimping him the whole match and when he gets good I'll turn up the heat.

Maybe your friend just isn't cut out to be a smasher.