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Being aware of your options/Breaking into Competitive.

PhilCobb

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Being aware of your options.

What separates a "Pro" from someone who isn't?
What separates a "Great" player from a "good" one?
So you've mastered spacing, you've mastered accounting for landing lag, roll distance, kill percents for each weight class, you've got Vectoring (DI) and the "Rage" mechanic down pat, etc. etc. And yet, you feel like you've hit a glass ceiling. You play against your friends, but you're never 'quite' good enough to eek out that last stock before they do. They always seem to get just a few more hits, you seem to take too much damage. You can't figure it out. You eyeball a few of your replays, and you just don't see it. Maybe it's because you're not sure what to look for. It's not your fault. Maybe it's because nobody told you what your options were.

Let's assume for all intents and purposes, you're going to get Falcon Pauwnched. In fact, you've already heard the iconic warm-up phrase, FALCON ... and you know you're going to get Pauwnched.

What do you do?
Let's also assume you're Lucina. Because Lucina is cool. If you don't think so, well sucks to be you.
I know some/most of you have a base instinct to roll away, or Counter. But how many options do you really have?
Do you even know?
This is what separates professional players from those of us who *want* to be professional players. Let's take a look, see.

Your options are:

Eat it.

Yes, it's an option. Not a good one, but an option. Not advised. Like, at all.
Run.

Surprisingly one of the better ones, although all too often underused by the majority. It's good because you can Dash just outside the hitbox and Dash right back in during the ending lag. Considering how some Dash Attacks have been powered up this time around, I'd say it's more than viable.
Jump.

Another good one because now you have access to all your aerials, and you could even jump behind Falcon and let him eat a Smash attack while his Pauwnch whiffs. That being said, if you're going to go for this option, make sure you've got enough time to get over their attack.
Shield.

Decent option, but the Shieldstun prevents you from punishing as effectively as other options. If you've got good timing, you can always Perfect Shield (aka Powershield), which allows you to act sooner than normal with no damage to your shield. Also keep in mind that certain characters have some very good Out-of-Shield options, such as Lucina's Up-B for starters. The Character-specific forums can help you find more information on this.
Roll.

This seems to be everyone's go-to answer for this type of thing. Sure, it'll get you out of a jam, but this is one of the things higher-level players like to keep tabs on. Thus, if you do it a lot, particularly around moves without a whole lot of ending lag, you can and WILL get punished for it, usually by a Down Smash.
Spotdodge.

One of what I consider to be a good option, but a lot stricter in terms of timing. Too early, you get hit. Too late, you get hit. If you're confident in your ability to do it, then do it. If not, you're probably going to eat the hit. Practice is key.
Grab.

You could always rush in for a grab while he's announcing his battle strategy. Just be quick about it. And note that not all attacks will give you ample time to decide to do this.
Attack.

A pretty fair option that some people don't even consider. Just pick a quicker attack. Not particularly hard if you're facing a move with high start-up. Just remember you won't always have such a luxury. Also remember that you don't have to bring out a power hit if you're using an attack as a defensive option, you just need something to interrupt their attack, or even better put them on the defensive. Something as simple as a jab or tilt will work, you don't -*HAVE*- to go for a Smash Attack.
Counter. (if your character can)

Pretty self-explanatory. Again, timing is crucial. The second of go-to options, it tends to get overused by people who aren't used to having them at their disposal. They can also be VERY obnoxious if you use them correctly. Correct usage of these is in my opinion, when they least expect it. This means that you should be utilizing Shields, Rolling, Spotdodging, Running and Jumping so as to lull the opponent into thinking you won't use Counter. This gives the opponent a sense that you are generally recessive and that they can be free to go all-out on the offensive. As soon as they get sloppy with a Knee of Justice, BOOM-POW-Straight to the Moon! Also, remember that certain characters have directional counters. Remember that when Countering with them.

That's 8-9 options. That's not even including things you can do immediately after one of the above actions. Let's say you jumped. You now have the option of any of your aerials. If you spotdodged or ran, you have almost your entire moveset at your disposal, depending on their ending lag. The possibilities are nearly endless.

Aside from hopefully opening your mind to the possibilities, each of these options presents positives and negatives that all have to be weighed against your situation in a match at any given time. Professional players are able to consistently make the best decision for any given situation, while keeping themselves unpredictable. That's what makes them professionals. They can do this type of thinking on the fly. When you can reach that level, then you'll probably be right up there with them.


TL;DR - You can do more than Roll.

Edit - Thanks to those that have suggested addenda and corrections. Some of it has been incorporated. This is not to say you should not read all the posts, as I cannot incorporate everything.
 
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InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
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Jul 9, 2014
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1,245
Also worth noting how much time each of these options requires to be safe:

-Shield is frame 0
-Attacking varies, some characters have very fast (even 1 frame) options while others have to wait a bit longer. A jab typically has less than 5 frames of startup. Grabs are similar but tend to take slightly longer and may have less range (or more, but if you've got a tether grab this is a very risky option!).
-Counter timing also varies, further complicated by custom specials. Marth's counter activates on frame 5 in Melee/PM/I think Brawl, not sure about this game or anyone else's counter off hand.
-Spotdodges tend to become intangible before rolls, at least historically.
-Jumps have startup frames and of course you have to consider how long it'll take to clear your opponent's hitboxes. Characters with low jumpsquat frames and fast/high jumps can make more use of this.
-Running is speed and positioning dependent. If the opponent has spaced the attack precisely then you can probably clear it without too much trouble on most if not all characters, but there's only so much sense in trying to outrun a charge shot, Thoron+, etc.

Also bear in mind the possibility of super armor or intangibility frames.
 

Dr. Giygas

Smash Rookie
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Some characters (Such as Jigglypuff) can even duck under a few attacks from certain characters.
 
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Dragoomba

Smash Lord
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Decent option, but the Shieldstun prevents you from punishing as effectively as other options. Still, you didn't take damage. And remember, defaulting to this option will leave you in a pretty bad spot because Shields don't last forever.
Intentionally perfect shielding is also an option, and a very viable one in this game.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
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Nice choose your own adventure style here. I do think you understated the shield option here though (plus OoS options like up B, Fair, grab) as shields in 4 are massively buffed.
 

JamietheAuraUser

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Nice choose your own adventure style here. I do think you understated the shield option here though (plus OoS options like up B, Fair, grab) as shields in 4 are massively buffed.
It's a Falcon Punch. If you don't perfect shield that, you'll lose like half your shield, probably be pushed out of range of anything other than FSmash or FTilt, and likely be in enough shieldstun that Falcon will be able to escape an FSmash with a backward roll.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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If we are talking about Falcon Punch here, I feel like there are a ton of way to massively punish this if used blindly. Though this is a massive idea of what in general you can do for in game options.
 

PhilCobb

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I'd like to say that, on the whole the post was intended for people who mostly played casually, but with the addition of For Glory mode as compared to the past iteration of online play, have decided to take the next step into the Competitive Circuit.

Granted, the example could have been better chosen, or I could have supplied multiple (e.g. SHFFKnee, Knee when attempting to recover, ledge recovery options, etc.) examples, but I chose this one because it's by and far the most recognizable.

I do recognize and respect the criticisms given regarding my general shortcomings in providing more in-depth information on the given options, but I viewed this as more of a primer for stepping into the Competitive Arena. I'm of the firm belief that the competitive circuit cannot survive (or at the very least, grow) if ample encouragement and feedback are not given to the lower-echelon players. As the article asks - Do they know their options?

If I may attempt to explain - I was attempting to break into the competitive scene a few years back, but was stonewalled when the only feedback I got from higher-echelon players was "You're not playing good enough" and "I don't know just practice your tech skill more or something". I went to one tournament, lost a lot, got discouraged and never went back. I continued to play with my friends and gave out pointers to those who would listen. Most wouldn't. I was asked why I never went back, I just said I wasn't good enough. Hard for them to believe, even harder for me to swallow. I feel like this happens more than the competitive community will admit to. And it happens more than they want to explain for, since one of their top complaints at said tournament was low turnout. "Not enough fresh meat" I actually heard one of them say. Glad to know I was just a few more bucks in the prize pot to you.

Lo, some years later (and the day before I drafted the OP), I found myself in a very peculiar situation that I must admit I'm very pleased to say I was in. I was playing against a friend, and he kept asking me these questions:
"Why am I losing ?"
"What am I doing wrong ?"
"How do I handle XYZ situation ?"
"What should I be working on ?"
I'm actually quite happy that I could actually give him concise answers. He improved. The very next match he was integrating my pointers into his play style. I could see it. So could he.

That is what the Competitive Community needs more of. They need more intelligent players that pay attention to the rookies, coach them, guide them, assist them, and don't try to milk them for prize money. I believe firmly that the Competitive Community at large needs more people willing to step into the role of teacher during down times and during friendlies. Less discouraging, more encouraging.

I could get on a soapbox and rant about my negative experience at a tournament, but I don't feel it's necessary. I drafted this to help people to open their eyes. Competitive Smash is an entirely new ballgame, and you've got to be prepared for it. The article isn't intended to be a go-to for people who have already compiled frame data, it's for people making that transition into the "Big Leagues". It's for people who have hit that glass ceiling, can't figure out how to get just a little bit better.

Maybe it'll help 'em, maybe it won't. I hope it does, and I welcome the feedback. Also, thank you to those that have supplied feedback thus far, I'll see what I can do to update it.
 
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Zelgius150

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Great post indeed. May I ask some questions?

What are "frames" exactly?

What is "out ouf shield"? Out of shield options are moves to use when your opponent can't shield, maybe?

I don't have mastered any of the "tricks" you list at the start yet. I'm thinking of entering the competitive scene for the first time now, and never tried too hard, so yep, I've a still a lonng way to walk :p In fact, I'm a bit concerned about the huge amount of time I would have to invest. But after having discarded competitive Pokemon, maybe I can do it.
 
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DoctorDub

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Very good post, indeed. I suppose I should run more. I always tend to go for the spot-dodge, execute it just too late to capitalise on my opponent's mistake and end up getting hit afterwards.
 

PhilCobb

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"Frames" as it was explained to me, are 1/60th of a second, provided the game runs at 60 Frames per Second, which Smash 4 does. It's basically a unit for measuring time, when seconds are far too large.

"Out of Shield" options refers to things you can do directly after dropping your shield, usually before the opponent can react. Depending on which character you're using, this can be anything from a Jab to an Up-B, but they usually are faster attacks. Buffering can help get these out as soon as possible.

-Again, not a pro. If someone has a better answer, please throw them up here.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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That is what the Competitive Community needs more of. They need more intelligent players that pay attention to the rookies, coach them, guide them, assist them, and don't try to milk them for prize money. I believe firmly that the Competitive Community at large needs more people willing to step into the role of teacher during down times and during friendlies. Less discouraging, more encouraging.

I could get on a soapbox and rant about my negative experience at a tournament, but I don't feel it's necessary. I drafted this to help people to open their eyes. Competitive Smash is an entirely new ballgame, and you've got to be prepared for it. The article isn't intended to be a go-to for people who have already compiled frame data, it's for people making that transition into the "Big Leagues". It's for people who have hit that glass ceiling, can't figure out how to get just a little bit better.

Maybe it'll help 'em, maybe it won't. I hope it does, and I welcome the feedback. Also, thank you to those that have supplied feedback thus far, I'll see what I can do to update it.
Totally agree! That's why i got into commentary and content creating for the smash community - to help people get into the scene, learn, amd feel welcome.
 

Zelgius150

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One really feels more welcome here if there are people like you who try to help us newbies :). There are people out there in Smash or in any other competitive game that look down on newbies, as if they weren't once :_)

Oh, I see, that's why a lot of people spam jab after getting out of shield. And they also spam jab to avoid shieldgrab. Thank you.

It so happens that I'm trying to main Lucina. Lucina is cool indeed :4lucina:
 

Blueye

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Very nice thread that shows all the option you have when someone throws a move at you. Although i have to say that this particular Cptn. Falcon is a bit of the risky variant, throwing a pawnch like that.

When you know all your options, you can also get to the next step by conditioning your opponent. Say, if you roll away from a few moves your opponent might predict that you will roll dodge his next moves. What you can then do is read he will read a roll and punish him for that. Let the mindgames begin!

Frames:
A frame is one image of a moving picture. If you play these pictures after each other fast enough, our brain will interpret it as a moving image (think of a faster version of stop-motion videos if you have heard of them). The more frames a second, the smoother the video will be. In smash 3ds, the game runs at 60 Frames a Second (FPS), which means one frame every 1/60th second.

In a fighter like smash, a hitbox from a move comes out on a certain frame in the animation. Almost any move has 'startup lag' and 'ending lag'. Starting lag are frames in which the move is being used, but are without a hitbox (so no damage/knockback). Ending lag are frames after the hitbox has already been gone. This lag is for example noticeable with bowsers drop kick. He uses some time to get up, where you cannot input another move since he still is in his animation. Ending lag is very punishable.

Out of Shield (OoS)
Out of shield moves are moves that can be used while you have the shield up. This does not mean quickly dropping shield and inputting a move. Any character can roll, spotdodge, jump and grab (Except Yoshi, who can not jump OoS EDIT: nvm in smash 4 he now can jump OoS. Another edit: actually no specials OoS either). For more info on a Shield itself, you can find it on the smash wiki (supersmashbros.wikia. com /wiki/Shield, can't post links yet:lick:)

If you have more questions, feel free to ask them or try to google them yourself.

Also first post woop!!
 
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Yokoblue

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Things OOS can be perform while holding the shield ?
I can grab easily, roll etc but I cannot seem to be able to jump or do any moves... What am I doing wrong ?
Do we have to quickly release the shield or do we keep holding it. I've read numerous wiki about it and nothing says the manipulation clearly.
 

KingBAMF

Smash Rookie
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Oct 11, 2014
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Things OOS can be perform while holding the shield ?
I can grab easily, roll etc but I cannot seem to be able to jump or do any moves... What am I doing wrong ?
Do we have to quickly release the shield or do we keep holding it. I've read numerous wiki about it and nothing says the manipulation clearly.
hold your shield button, now press your jump button. you have just jumped out of shield! :D
 

Yokoblue

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hold your shield button, now press your jump button. you have just jumped out of shield! :D
But is it the same for moves, how do I UP B out of shield. hold shield and then UP B while holding it ? DOesnt seem to do anything...
 

JamietheAuraUser

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But is it the same for moves, how do I UP B out of shield. hold shield and then UP B while holding it ? DOesnt seem to do anything...
Hold shield > tap the jump button > quickly input Up Special during the jump startup animation.

As for how to do Up Smash out of shield, it's basically the same thing:
Hold shield > tap the jump button > quickly input Up Smash during the jump startup animation.

This only works because the game lets you cancel jump startup into Up Smash or Up Special to make inputs easier with Tap Jump.
 

Zelgius150

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Whaat. I was playing with my brother the other day and I found that I could use Lucina's Up B really fast after shielding. But I don't think I did any of the tricks yo mention. I'm going to try now in training! :)

EDIT: Ok, just a question: it' seems that I can only do that with Tap Jump activated. I just input an USmash when still shielding. But 8 times of 10 or so I simple get a shieldgrab :(
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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Whaat. I was playing with my brother the other day and I found that I could use Lucina's Up B really fast after shielding. But I don't think I did any of the tricks yo mention. I'm going to try now in training! :)

EDIT: Ok, just a question: it' seems that I can only do that with Tap Jump activated. I just input an USmash when still shielding. But 8 times of 10 or so I simple get a shieldgrab :(
With Tap Jump enabled, tap Up very slightly before you hit A to guarantee that you get an Up Smash and not a shield-grab. With Tap Jump disabled...

Hold shield > tap the jump button > quickly input Up Special during the jump startup animation.

As for how to do Up Smash out of shield, it's basically the same thing:
Hold shield > tap the jump button > quickly input Up Smash during the jump startup animation.

This only works because the game lets you cancel jump startup into Up Smash or Up Special to make inputs easier with Tap Jump.
The same rules apply with Tap Jump enabled as with it disabled, meaning you can still cancel jump startup into USpecial or USmash.
 

Zelgius150

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Ok, I can do it now. Speciall if I slow down the game speed in training. It takes practice. Hope I had a c-stick :_) Thank you, Jamie!
 

shapular

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Both up smash and up B out of shield are super easy on 3DS with tap jump off. Just hold up while in shield and quickly roll your thumb from X to A or Y to B.
 

deepseadiva

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We definitely needed a resource like this. Explaining these "advanced" concepts can be a little difficult when they've been ingrained for so long. Smash in reality is a collection of of these "situations", so slicing these down to essential interactions is very useful.
 

Zelgius150

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Both up smash and up B out of shield are super easy on 3DS with tap jump off. Just hold up while in shield and quickly roll your thumb from X to A or Y to B.
It's perfect, man, that's the easiest way to do it, thank you!
 

mangamusicfan

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Good thread this really helped me a lot
i stil got to learn a lot to play this game kn a high level.
 
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