Becoming Earthbound again

[_clinton]

So, I feel its no secret that Ness has a harder time touching the floor in this game and avoiding getting juggled compared to Brawl. In general Ness has always wanted people in the air, but he himself doesn't really want to be in the air at the mercy of someone on the ground as well.
-Dair is nerfed and still bad in general for keeping foes off him, granted, at least if you do connect with it you are given free pass back to the earth pretty much still like in Brawl (even if you trade most of the time). And now it does have a more disjointed hitbox it seems as well, which may help.
-nair itself is at least good for keeping some guys off him, but vs. some good uairs and you'll never trade/beat them as much as you want.
-Air dodge is hit and miss, you can turn the table and easily uair them if you get by them a good % of the time, but still, an air dodge isn't foul proof; being close to the ground can keep you open, and they could easily read the dodge and pop you back up again.
-The ledge isn't your friend as much as you want it to be compared to others, where as characters like Samus can at least head off the stage and go for the ledge to help with countering juggling, Ness doesn't like it as much.
-Platforms can get in your way if they aren't the nice moving one like on smashvile, this is why I hate stages like battlefield as well more than some others.
-PK Thunder can be used to cover your fall some, but again you are a sitting duck (and there are so many characters you want to be careful at doing this to/areas where you can do this).
-PK Fire requires a very picky angel, and a miss is very costly. But, at least you can really turn the table if you hit with it. Stuff like PK Jump/Firebound is helpful as well here IMO as well.
-Magnet stall is changed in general, so something that let you mix up your fall is limited now. Sure the rising magnet you have now is pretty nice for helping you off stage at absorbing certain projectiles (which is why I've changed my opinion on if I really want just the stall back recently), but if you are just trying to touch ground you can only use it once, and you have to give up your 2nd jump to use it as well. Still, this is one of your best options still IMO despite it being nerfed.

So, I ask Ness mains, how do you all get back to nice solid ground?

 

[ExigeOlimin]

I've tried using PKT2 to hit anything in my way to the stage, granted they don't dodge or roll. It seems to be working well, except against characters like Shulk or Marth with their counters. Unless you smack straight into the floor, PKT2 seems to work ok. For the counter characters, I like to fake them out and make them think I'm going for a Bair, when I just land and roll away instead.

 

[Noa.]

There are three factors that determine how susceptile a character is to juggles:

1. Do they have a potent dair?

2. Do they have a lot of aerial mobility?

3. Do they have a small hurtbox?

Those are the three basic questions you want to ask when determining how easy it is to juggle someone. Ness actually does pretty well, since he has great aerial acceleration and deceleration, and is a pretty small character. Both of these factors make ti harder to juggle Ness. It is true that we don't have a dair, but this does not automatically being juggled one of Ness's weaknesses.

Every single character in the game does not want to be above their opponent. It is a bad position for all characters. Some deal with it better than others. I would say that Ness deals fairly well with it compared to other characters. Just be thankful that you're not maining, Ike, DK, Bowser, Megaman, or Falcon, who all have a much harder time getting juggled.

Anyways, the best way to get out of juggles is to abuse your aerial acceleration. When you're falling hold the control stick in one direction, and then smack it to the opposite direction when your opponent is trying to close in on you. Most characters cannot keep up with you in the air if you change directions so quickly because they don't move as fast as Ness in this regard. You then try to airdodge if you have to, and then retaliate with nair, bair, or uair.

 

[mobilisq]

Pull away from your opponent with a fast fall forward air, it has rather good priority this time around

 

[ilysm]

I mean, regardless of how easy it is to juggle him, his weakest position relative to his opponent is right above them. I tend to use uair in a pinch, because it has a hitbox behind his head. Once in a blue moon iI'll use PKT1 to cover myself but don't expect that to work often.

 

[Uffe]

Pull away from your opponent with a fast fall forward air, it has rather good priority this time around

I was actually thinking this after reading the OP. Clinton, with how you had written your post, those situations all sound as if you're coming straight down. I normally dodge. Of course this can be read and then punished against better players, so it might be best to use an aerial afterwards. Fast falling and moving either left or right, if not both directions would be a good strategy. I used to get juggled quite a lot for the first couple of months until I figured that fast falling and moving other directions, even sometimes PSI Magneting for a delayed fall to trick my opponents were good options. I don't even do the PSI Magnet thing anymore. It can push away oncoming opponents, but you're left open so it's not all that safe. Your best bet would be that if the player you're against waits for you to dodge and then strikes, to just attack first.

 

[_clinton]

Well, besides coming down I thought I'd like to talk about how to return to offense as well. Because I mean think of how returning to a stage works for if you are fighting a Link or so. If you run from him you'll just have to get back into his area in general most of the time (unless you are a head a stock).

 

[Uffe]

Some characters you need to retreat from. Character with projectile, I feel, are bad in close quarter combat. I'll try to get back to you on the subject, though. I'll need to think about this.

 

[PKBeam]

Link is decent in close range.

 

[Uffe]

Getting back onto the stage shouldn't be much of an issue. Certain characters are better at chasing than others. Sure, you can air dodge, but you might be baited into doing so and then get struck with a uair. Of course, as you've already mentioned, Ness can air dodge > uair. It works, but it becomes predictable. Your best bet would be to stray away from your opponents attacks and air dodge forces. By the way, if you have a second jump still, you can do that as you're coming down, just to pull away from a possible attack. I know you get back up in the air from this, but it can be useful. You yourself will have to determine which options to use, because once you've been figured out, then it becomes hard, and fortunately, there are many options. Fast falling your descent is an ideal thing to do.

Now, as for characters who have projectile and keep you away after you've been thrown into the air, it can be quite frustrating on which opponent you're facing. Characters who rely mostly on projectile aren't as much of a threat close up, though, it may appear that way. Well, unless you're fighting Link. He has killer moves. The only thing you have to worry about getting by from Link are his arrows. The boomerang does no damage as it returns, and the bombs you can catch and return. They also have some start up lag from the pull out, just like the arrows. So you can literally use that to your advantage if he's using those when you're close. Not sure why he would, but hey, if their A button is broken, give it a go.

A character like Toon Link and Mega Man are especially annoying when it comes to projectile game. Toon Link, you can try to apply the same thing as you would with Link, but the difference about him is that he's quick on his feet and smaller, so he's not as much of an easy target. But his smash attacks are shorter than Link's, so that's something you could try to take advantage of. As for Mega Man, well, you can steal his Metal Blade and absorb his Crash Bomber, but that Leaf Shield is super annoying if you're going to go in for a grab or any close attack. I personally feel that if you can learn to get around Mega Man's stuff, then other projectile characters becoming easier to deal with. Unless it's Duck Hunt. Forget that dog.

 

[ExigeOlimin]

Unless it's Duck Hunt. Forget that dog.

If you take advantage of the startup lag from Wild Gunman, you can hit him with a Bair or something and not get hit by the shot from Wild Gunman. If he tries to hit you with the can, try to go behind where it's going and block the Clay shot if you land. You should be fine with getting up close with Duck Hunt, as long as you keep pestering him and not letting him use his projectiles. He seems to have a hard time killing. I only ever kill anyone at 150% with DH.

 

[Uffe]

If you take advantage of the startup lag from Wild Gunman, you can hit him with a Bair or something and not get hit by the shot from Wild Gunman. If he tries to hit you with the can, try to go behind where it's going and block the Clay shot if you land. You should be fine with getting up close with Duck Hunt, as long as you keep pestering him and not letting him use his projectiles. He seems to have a hard time killing. I only ever kill anyone at 150% with DH.

Duck Hunt as a character isn't much of an issue as much as how he's played. I understand why he's played the way he is and I don't hate the player for that. His clay disks and can are my biggest issue against him. I might figure him out if I play against more of them. I hate being timed out, though, and it has happened against me in the past when I first fought him. DH has alright kill moves, but yeah, they're not really the best. Up air, down air, back air, and I think forward air all kill. His forward smash is deceptive and dangerous. I want to say his down smash is also a killer. I really wanted to use him as a secondary, but he's not my style.

 

[Earthbound360]

Things NOT to do when landing:
Fair - Terrible landing lag
Dair - Takes forever to come out, horrific end lag AND landing lag
PKT2 - Generally you want to either faceplant or slide away. If you're in slide or faceplant range, then 99% of the cast can jump up and hit you before the thunder connects. If you're not in that range, then you're suffering mad land lag.
PSI Magnet - The stalling sux in this game
PK Fire - Waaaayyy too hard to land and risk if missed
Double jump unnecesasrily - Ness' DJ is huge and floaty, you're really just giving them a second opportunity to hit you again unless you REALLY mvoe away from them

Things TO do when landing:
Air dodge - Obviously enough, just don't be predictable with it. If you're landing with an air dodge be SURE your opponent has already overcommited to jumping up and missing you.
DI unpredictably - One of my favorites, just swerve around erratically in the air. Beware of moves that hit on both sides though. A patient player can read you, so it's not perfect.
Fast fall - Use in tandem with air dodging. Just try not to land during the air dodge. Fast fall and immediately shielding is a good option too (that I admittedly must learn to incorporate more).
Go for the ledge - Not as good in this game, still not awful though. Just don't regrab it.
Nair - It's alright. It can trade with aerials, and while that's not exactly what you want, at least nair can buy you some time to land. Just make sure their attack doesn't completely beat nair. It's the best aerial for a hitbox under Ness.

I'm experimenting with using bair to land on people's shields too. It could be really good. It has enough pushback on shield and small enough recovery frames to be semi-safe. I also sometimes use PKT to cover my landing IF I'm near an edge... but I don't recommend emulate that. That's just a weird quirk of mine.

As for landing against projectiles, you can generally either air dodge them as their released (early) or fast fall and immediately shield when they come at you (late). It's a tough situation, but it's all a matter of predicting when the opponent will let loose. In some cases, Ness can nair through weaker projectiles, and most of the stronger ones that bear the threat of KOing you can be absorbed, so we get a free ticket out of that.

 

[NorCal_DSS]

+1 for the title. I lol'd in real life from it.

Empty landing is actually a very good option. If you're not too high up, then your opponent will expect you to hit their shield. They'll hold it and wait for a confirmation on their shield to actually attack/grab oos. If you fast fall right in front of them, then you can grab them right away. It's really funny to watch a Ness do it because we're floaty, but our accelerated fast fall makes this an incredibly viable option.

If you're higher up, then save your jump. I would drift off stage and then use my second jump to return to stage and then attempt something like an empty land.