Beast 3 Armada(Pit) v. Mango(fox/falco)

[iode]

WF: Armada (Pit) vs Mango (Fox) from 2 hours 26 minutes onwards
http://www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness/b/386939364

GF: Armada (Pit) vs Mango (Falco)
http://www.twitch.tv/fuzzyness/b/386990531

So it seems like there's a lot of talk from the commentators on nerfing Pit after watching Armada beat Mango in straight sets with him using two of his arguably best characters. What do you guys think? Does the fact that Mango, one of the best melee players in the world, not being able to take a single game in two sets while using two characters he has hundreds if not thousands of hours of experience playing, mean that Pit is actually broken? Some background info: Armada has only played Pit on two occasions in two tournament brackets and their respective friendlies sessions; he does not own PM.

Discuss.

 

[CyberZixx]

Pit seems really good but not sure about broken. He clearly has fantastic aerials, combos, gimps/edgeguarding, and recovery. Right now there is only Armada playing pit to this degree. I say a bit. Then prehaps nerf arrow stun.

 

[Armada]

Took longer then expected before people complaining about Pit being broken but I guess beating Mango with 6-0 was enough

Well tell me when I should switch to another char and make that one broken!
=)

 

[cannedbread]

i vote mario

 

[t3chn0g0at]

It's not your fault that you're a baller. It's more that Pit plays like a faster Falco that, instead of shining, can not only guide his lasers, but use them off stage as well.

Edit: but I vote Dedede. I want to see the greatest Dedede of all time.

 

[Planet Piss]

1. Armada's a monster
2. Armada wrecks spacies habitually
3. Armada has wrecked Mango before
4. Mango probably doesn't know the Pit MU
5. Realistically speaking, Armada probably could have picked from like half of the current roster and wrecked everyone with a character that isn't Pit

I don't think any character needs nerfing yet. In this instance, we have probably the best Melee player of all time doing well with a pretty solid character against someone who he beats most of the time whom plays a character Armada has memorized the flow chart of destroying. If, on the other hand, we have unheard-of players beating pros like Mango and Armada with a new character (like Ike in 2.1), then we have a reason to nerf the character. Is there anyone else who goes as hard with Pit as Armada? Anyone close?

 

[Bryonato]

Sorry but Pit is not broken lol. Mango has no matchup experience vs Armada's years of matchup experience and personal skill. This is the only tournament where we have seen Pit do this well and to be honest Armada could just be better than Mango. Also, it's not like each of these games were a 3 or 4 stock low %. Mango came plenty close to winning a few of these games.

I don't know, I just think it is stupid to see a character doing well and then go bat**** over nerfing him like we saw Fuzzy do in the video.


If we start seeing these results consistently, then we can talk.

 

[iode]

If a Pit nerf does come to pass (I agree with the general sentiment that more time and statistics are needed), I feel like the only thing that should be added is a knockback/hitstun decrease modifier to his arrows when spammed. For example, first arrow fired has current knockback, second arrow that follows has shiek needle knockback, third arrow has falco laser knockback, fourth, fifth, and n'th arrow fired consecutively have falco laser knockback. If a move has been used (that is not arrow) after an arrow, it refreshes the arrow knockback state to full power. If not, it takes 4 seconds cooldown of not firing an arrow to go back to full power.

I think the above modification could address some heavy-char/fast faller issues with arrow juggling off stage that we saw on more than one occasion, where the fox/falco has no choice but to DI in and die, or DI out and also simply die.

However, before such a "nerf" is considered, I believe some factors should be taken into consideration such as arrow accuracy learning curve. If Armada does turn out to be the only Pit player who could ever produce such consistent arrow striking, among other Pit players, then a nerf is uncalled for due to the intense difficulty. I played Pit for a few hours myself and tried to replicate hitting with arrows consistently on recovering falcos and foxes and god is it hard. Major props to armada for his skill in that department.

 

[MVP]

armada likes campy characters... you make a character broken? you just play very defensively and campy... i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that (although my opinion is it's a dumb way to win), but most people don't like clocking out games.. Props armada for having more patience than any other smasher

 

[Bryonato]

I could see diminishing returns on the arrows. That seems reasonable.

 

[Arcalyth]

People in this community are way too quick to say things are broken without thinking about it. It's not broken, you just haven't figured out how to beat it yet. Truly broken things are usually pretty obvious and generally involve something having stupidly high reward for stupidly low risk or commitment.

Let's think about this rationally for a second. As noted above, Armada is already proven as a better player than Mango. Mango is using a character that hasn't changed much in over a decade vs a brand new character that nobody really knows the matchup for. Should we nerf everyone who has some semblance of being "good?" Oh, this character can approach? Nerf. This character can combo? Nerf. This character can kill? Nerf!!

It's natural to get frustrated and skeptical when you're getting beat or seeing other people get beat and it can be difficult to factor out personal bias toward characters. However, it's important to look at the character from an objective standpoint and as the sum of its parts to see how those parts fit together. The argument shouldn't be "character too good" or "player needs to get better," it should be "something about how this character works is flawed, here's why, and here's how to fix it." And if you're wrong, you're wrong. Someone will tell you how to beat whatever tactic is giving you trouble. If it's beatable, then it's by definition not broken.

 

[sagemoon]

Pit very obviously counters a lot of high tier characters like fox, falco, wolf and falcon, but he is countered by some of the lesser played characters. He spices up the meta for sure, but his kit alone will make him counter the spacies even with nerfs. That being said, armada is good and mango kept choosing ****ty stages for himself lol.

Edit. Pit could use a couple of nerfs in some places and buffs in other places. His dair combos too easily, and his dash attack probably shouldnt guarantee a kill move (bair on fast fallers, up b on everyone else). His down b is almost the most useless move in the game. I think he should be able to jump out of it after the initial reflection frames. Arrows are hard to balance, they will always be good against some recoveries like fox and falco, but nerfing them just because of those characters would make them useless. Imo they are in a pretty good place

 

[BTmoney]

It is far too early to say that pit counters fox, counter is a strong word.

Falco counters falcon

 

[Kati]

This just looks like what happens whenever I play with a new character against my brother's main. I know how to space against his character, but he has no clue what my character is capable of. Regardless of how well I know my mystery character, me knowing the opponent gives me a huge edge.

Kudos to Armada for playing Pit so well, but more video evidence is required (perhaps with smashers who aren't the best in the world). Mango led the second match with falco until the very end despite sd'ing.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Are people really asking for nerfs after watching two sets of people who don't even play this game?

 

[iode]

The commentators sure were. They were almost adamant on it. It's also tough to say that armada and mango don't "play this game", because just the fact that they probably beat 90% of the players who do "play this game" means that they very much qualify as "players" of project m.

 

[Hashtag]

Pit doesn't counter the high tier characters by any means. He can pose a problem, bud definitely doesn't counter, mainly because a lot of high tier characters have VERY easily gimpable recoveries.

On a side note, saying that pits dair leads into combos to easily and needs to be nerfed is like saying that about falcos and falcons dairs too. His dash attack is also not that good and hardly leads into Up B or Bair once opponents learn how to DI.

Reflex said it best to me at the last tourney we were at, pit doesn't neccessarily excel at abything, he's more like a Jack of all trades. Pit still lacks in a few areas compared to other characters. What you saw in those videos is what Pit can do to a fastfaller.

Edit:
A lot of pits moves are easily crouch cancelled (stupid easy).
Pit lacks good finishers on heavier characters or characters with good recoveries.
Pit's arrows can be nulled by an attack
Pit's moves are easily DI'able (unless you're a fastfaller)
Pit's moves do not have that great of a priority

*there is more but i'm to tired*


The commentators were also complaining about pit's arrows, but they don't start getting that hitstun i assume they were complaining until the other characater is at higher percents.

Don't get me wrong, I think pit is a great character and fun to play, but once people learn the match up I believe he will be settled into mid to low high tier/High Mid tier range.

 

[Mono.]

I want to ask something. This is the second time I've seen a PM newcomer defeat a spacie convincingly at high level play out of nowhere and I'm sure there's more. Are all responses like this? Because they beat spacies in a tournament and people think said character needs to be nerfed and probably do get nerfed? If so, it gives me the impression that spacie mains/mangofans/whatever are spoiled and don't like the idea of their would-be-top-tier-character having a bad matchup, which could lead to some bad decisions on the development part.

 

[leelue]

Pit doesn't excel at anything?
I coulda sworn he had a recovery and edgeguard game that were both in the top 1/4 of the current cast.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

don't rush nerfing characters, especially if its an underused character anyway.
The metagame is new, people will figure stuff out.

I even think the Ike nerf may have been a bit overdone.he's almost disappeared were i live, and that sucks. people hadn't even figured out how to gimp/edgeguard Ike and how to abuse his weaknesses. He would've been hella good, but isn't that the game? making characters that can compete? What does it matter if they're actually a bit better than melee spacies? let the game get figured out and throw in small tweeks every patch, instead of heavily nerfing characters that aren't even gamebreaking.

change sonic though.

 

[MrHazuki]

The arrows do seem a little bit too strong.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

agreed.
they are also hard to hit though, and people will figure out how to get hit less/Di and Sdi them efficiently. So lets just keep them how they are, and nerf them later or just for testing.

I think the best idea would be to be very patient about balancing until all characters are out, but think about what would do the metagame well. Then make some changes to get characters in line.

 

[Arcalyth]

Saying arrows are OP is as dumb as saying needles, lasers, and PK Fires are OP.

 

[Armada]

armada likes campy characters... you make a character broken? you just play very defensively and campy... i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that (although my opinion is it's a dumb way to win), but most people don't like clocking out games.. Props armada for having more patience than any other smasher

Not sure if you are serious or not.
If you even try to imply that Im playing Pit VERY deffensive you have a very skewed view of what very deffensive is. Yes my Y link is VERY deffensive but I do think basically 95% of the people in this community have no understanding for offensive/deffensive anymore and tons of comments proves this.


Regarding Pit countering spacies: I can't say I agree with this one. Pit has tons of great tools and probably is one of the better chars (hard to say cause I haven't even played all chars) but I don't think Pit beat spacies. Just using me vs Mango as "evidence" is for sure not enough.

 

[Bryonato]

Honestly I think Armada bodied Mango so hard because he is Armada and he knows his ****.

 

[Strong Badam]

if all you guys are going to discuss is whether pit should be nerfed, this thread will likely be locked, sorry. those types of discussions are nebulous and talk in circles without accomplishing anything.
talk about the set, talk about pit's match-up against fox/falco, talk about how to use pit/fight against pit. anything of actual content please

 

[Hashtag]

Pit doesn't excel at anything?
I coulda sworn he had a recovery and edgeguard game that were both in the top 1/4 of the current cast.

His recovery is is good as long as he has his glide, if you can stop that major component for the most part snd just make him rely on jumps and up b then it's not as rough. Force him to approach from below the edge of the stage and its even worse. He has a great recovery distance wise yes, and can have some good mix ups that hinge on him having his side b.

His edgeguarding is also good, however there are chatacters who i feel can do it better/safer than him while staying closer/on the stage. Those characters also have much wider attack range and require a little less "percision" than with pit's moves it seems.

Maybe for you leelue I should have said he's not the best at every area but he is at least decent in every area?

 

[leelue]

Saying "at least decent" doesn't put a cap on how good you're willing to say some things are, so that's more acceptable.

 

[sagemoon]

Regarding Pit countering spacies: I can't say I agree with this one. Pit has tons of great tools and probably is one of the better chars (hard to say cause I haven't even played all chars) but I don't think Pit beat spacies. Just using me vs Mango as "evidence" is for sure not enough.

I admit I was a bit quick to claim 'pit counters spacies.' At least for falco/wolf, I think that pit has an advantage in the match up. I don't know much about the fox match up (ironic). What I was trying to imply in my first comment was that pit has plenty of bad match ups, spacies are not what I would consider a bad match up. While you are the topic of this conversation, I didn't mean to cite your match as evidence. I think that match was a poor example personally, since mango was more or less counterpicking himself with the stage choice. Also, my stance on nerfs meant to say that nerfs should not come without buffs in other areas.

 

[Armada]

Yeah maybe I was to fast with judge your comment as "evidence" for what I tried to say. Meant more like many players overall focus to much on results. So I never meant anything bad with my former post =)

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

well, the op actually asks for discussion about pit nerfing, didn't think it was OT

anyways, i actually forgot to say how awesome that set was to watch live. Everyone was surprised by those long arrow combos, looked really amazing
you're definitely going to bring the character forward alot if you decide to play him seriously every now and then

 

[Armada]

Thanks man!
Yeah I don't have PM so I will probably continue to play it on tournaments only basically.

You did also take a pretty good spot in PM, right?
Would have liked to see some games. Did not really saw any PM games =/

 

[trash?]

Pit still kinda looks like he has trouble getting the kill. Armada's basically getting Mango into the mid-hundreds before he can make anything happen, and that's against a character that's known to be easily-gimped. Though I suppose that might just be a first-reaction thought, for all I know Pit could gimp even easier than that.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

yeah, i had the luck of loosing to fuzzy twice... Would've really loved to try myself against eagle or faab

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

mango loses to ike: ike gets nerfed
mango loses to pit: pit gets nerfed

if mango loses, something other then him getting outplayed must be the major factor cuz hes the best
#mangonation

 

[iode]

Pit still kinda looks like he has trouble getting the kill. Armada's basically getting Mango into the mid-hundreds before he can make anything happen, and that's against a character that's known to be easily-gimped. Though I suppose that might just be a first-reaction thought, for all I know Pit could gimp even easier than that.

I agree, I've actually been playing Pit at smashfests at my University and I've realized that his ability to kill at mid/high percents is reminiscent of Marth's killing power. If you don't intercept a recovery, or perform a gimp, fairs and nairs won't kill otherwise. I'm no where near Armada's proficiency at edgeguarding or gimping and I realized that I've been pushing people I'm playing against to near 150-200% before actually killing them. My honest opinion is that Pit is very well balanced, I started this thread to see what other people feel.

 

[unknown522]

It's a different game.

nuff said

 

[Rikana]

Hi ryan.

Also, hit stun is a global thing. You cannot alter hitstun for one specific move. The stun of an attack depends on a few things such as the attack's damage and opponent's weight.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Hi ryan.

Also, hit stun is a global thing. You cannot alter hitstun for one specific move. The stun of an attack depends on a few things such as the attack's damage and opponent's weight.

Unless it's a Brawl-specific thing, weight does not have effect on hitstun.

 

[Strong Badam]

hitstun is directly related to kb, which is indeed affected by weight in both melee and brawl.