Beast 3 Armada(Pit) v. Mango(fox/falco)

[BlinkIV]

I wish I would've seen this earlier, but no. Pit is just a really solid character, definitely not broken. But I can definitely say, whoever designed Pit for 2.5, definitely went overboard with some of the things Pit was given, not enough to be considered broken. Besides, looking at Armada's Pit and comparing it to a few other Pit players, Armada can cover up almost any "fluke" with playing Pit with just sheer skill.

I knew there would be a discussion sometime about Pit being broken, compared to Armada being very good with him. As a Pit main myself, I do vote that Pit "should" have a few "adjustments' in some of his moves, but looking at Pit and looking at other characters as well, it can be said for a lot of things. In a way, you could say he's balanced, but I don't completely agree with that.

Fact of the matter is, Pit is just a combo monster, and that's easily said. He's got a proficient in-your-face game, and his ability to gimp, carry opponents off the map, and having a "flowchart" makes him over the bar, instantly. Pit should never have trouble getting kills, as most of his moves do lead into kills, and his U-Smash still remains his move powerful smash attack, killing at an absurd percentage. Not to mention his Up-B has really nice kill power as well.

Pit Vs Spacies isn't in Pit's favor. But it's not a complete shut down either. It may be a little "lobsided" on stage, but if Pit just throws them off and either shoots them, or N-air (Kills their recoveries, and other characters too), then apparently it's more than enough to make the MU against them even.

Vs Fox: It can be a little hard to shine spike a Pit, due to his massive recovery options.

Vs Falco: You can't "out-camp" him, since his laser game beats out Pit's arrow game.

Vs Wolf: You juggle him, he juggles you, it's a circus.

Sorry about the long post, a lot of stuff to be said about this, and hopefully opening more discussion.

 

[Ace55]

So we found another good character huh? I say give him the Ike treatment.

After that we can complain about Fox/Falco again.

 

[BlinkIV]

Please stop posting. Reading this post gave me cancer.

What I'm seeing right now is, people saying Pit is "Op" and "Broken" because Armada plays him. Correct? The ****-riding is too powerful.

 

[Ace55]

Please stop posting. Reading this post gave me cancer.

What I'm seeing right now is, people saying Pit is "Op" and "Broken" because Armada plays him. Correct? The ****-riding is too powerful.

People (or at least I am) are saying you can't say a char is OP because one smasher beats another one in a matchup they both hardly know. And if we keep screaming 'nerf' every time a char does something cool this game will get really boring, really fast.

And the cancer thing, really bad taste man, really bad taste.

 

[BlinkIV]

I'm saying the same thing you are, check my earlier post. Like I was telling Disqo earlier, no one really complained about Pit on the boards, until people saw Armada. So it's a combination of "Wow, this character is super good", without taking consideration that it IS Armada playing after all. But you know, that's how most people are.

The cancer thing, sarcasm, mate.

 

[Ace55]

The cancer thing, sarcasm, mate.

Wait so my post didn't actually give you cancer? Phew, I was afraid I had to pay the medical bill.

So what you were actually saying was 'please keep posting, reading this post cured my cancer'? Thanks man, I didn't know I had that kind of power. Kinda weird being sarcastic about it though...

 

[BlinkIV]

That's a possibility of things that could've been said.

Nonetheless, it must take miracles to cure cancer like that. Really though, so what I'm thinking is: People are gonna bandwagon Pit, people are gonna complain about him being "OP" and that he needs a nerf, then he'll get "Adjusted" (He needs a slight adjustment anyway, coming from a Pit main), then people will drop him and go onto the next bandwagoned character, yes?

 

[iode]

He needs a slight adjustment anyway, coming from a Pit main

why do you think he needs and adjustment and what adjustment would you suggest?

 

[Ace55]

Well unlike Ike it doesn't seem like people are flocking to Pit at all. So there really is no bandwagon. There is just a very vocal portion of the community who like to call a char 'op,unfair,etc' without knowing enough about the character. And the sad thing is it seems to have an effect on the PMBR. They could've given Ike his current tipper system and see how that works out. Instead they hit him with a truckload of nerfs with only a few things to compensate (the blue fire isn't cutting it PMBR). The result is that a character who was perceived as good but with exploitable weaknesses and who's counter-metagame really wasn't developed yet is now semi-extinct in the tourney scene. The same thing with Lucario really, although I don't think he was ever as popular as Ike.

I just hope the PMBR learns from that because in the long run it's really going to hurt the game if they keep nerfing every character who has something good going for them.

And to be clear I don't think Ike is a horrible character in 2.5 but the fact is he seems to have virtually disappeared from the scene, which is kinda tragic.

 

[BlinkIV]

why do you think he needs and adjustment and what adjustment would you suggest?

I think he needs an adjustment because most of Pit's tools can be used in almost every situation, and he has an answer to everything, somehow. His arrow game is amazing, his gimp potential is insane, his combos are really damaging, and most of his moves CAN combo into another move (Not like flowchart things), he's got a guaranteed kill setup (D-Throw - Up-B), his throws lead into heavy combos. What happened with Pit is, they made a character with awesome combo potential, with heavy damage output, and an amazing camping game. Compared to 2.1, whereas he HAD combo potential, but he didn't have heavy damage output and attacks that killed mad early.

U-Smash kills stupid early, F-Smash/D-Smash kills at a moderate percent, Up-B kills at a decent percent (Not as bad as U-Smash). Not to mention U-Smash not ONLY is a kill move, but it is also a combo starter, which is rather uneeded.

For adjustments: I'd say keep his gameplay style the same for the most part, but mainly "adjusting" the damage/knockback on some of his moves. Either making him a full hit-n-run character (Similar to Brawl Pit), or make him heavily combo oriented, but having more trouble getting kills, and not making it so easy for players. So, easily said.

Nerf overall damage output, adjust knockback, adjust hit stun/physics of arrows, less hit-stun on D-Tilt (On grounded opponent), it's almost the same as Ness' D-Air on a grounded opponent. Adjust throws a bit (Mainly D-Throw),

 

[iode]

I was watching some of your videos, SaiXeven, you're a pretty good Pit. But one thing I noticed through almost all the Pit videos is that Pit's range with his physical attacks are really really short. Combined with the fact that he has no instant attack (like a shine or Ganon/Falcon's jab, Pit's first A jab is slightly too slow) means that he's a free shield grab when he hits a shield, especially from characters with longer range grabs like Marth or Sheik. With Marth, you don't always risk death, but you do risk guaranteed damage. In particular with Sheik, getting grabbed at high percent usually means death. Given that Pit can't just spam arrows all day and has to eventually rely on his shorter range attacks (his Fair/Bair is like the hitbox length of a Fox Nair, but Fox has a shine to keep himself safe), do you think that would offset any balancing or tweaking that you had in mind?

 

[BlinkIV]

Not entirely, Pit just has to stay safe a lot, with his approaches, and how the player utilizes his arrow game. But, to compensate for Pit not having a move to stay safe constantly, and his Jab 1 not being too fast. I'd at least recommend either making his Jab 1 a little faster, but not stupid good that it can be abused in every situation.

But you're right for sure against Marth and Shiek, Pit does have trouble if he doesn't take the "right" approach options. The only aerial that Pit has which would be safe against Marth/Shiek/Snake would be D-Air. Spaced correctly of course, and OoS D-air is hard to punish with a shield grab from said character.

 

[Ace55]

Talking about the commentary some more, my favorite part was when someone said:

"I was talking about this with Leffen the other day and it's just crazy how Pit has a dair that hits under him, a fair that hits in front of him, an upair that hits above him and a bair that hits behind him".

I have to admit those are some terrible design choices. It would be funnier if we switched some of them around.

 

[Bryonato]

I cringed at that part of the video. Whenever I watch them now I just mute the video because I can't stand the commentary lol

 

[Armada]

Talking about the commentary some more, my favorite part was when someone said:

"I was talking about this with Leffen the other day and it's just crazy how Pit has a dair that hits under him, a fair that hits in front of him, an upair that hits above him and a bair that hits behind him".

I have to admit those are some terrible design choices. It would funnier if we switched some of them around.

I have completely no idea what Leffen/King Funk (If I remember correctly he was the one saying it) meant with that.
Every single char is desigined that way.

But yeah from the moment I beat Leffen at my first PM tournament he changed opinion about Pit right away (both how good Pit was in generall and the MU for Pit vs Lucario which was his main for the time being)

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Well unlike Ike it doesn't seem like people are flocking to Pit at all. So there really is no bandwagon. There is just a very vocal portion of the community who like to call a char 'op,unfair,etc' without knowing enough about the character. And the sad thing is it seems to have an effect on the PMBR. They could've given Ike his current tipper system and see how that works out. Instead they hit him with a truckload of nerfs with only a few things to compensate (the blue fire isn't cutting it PMBR). The result is that a character who was perceived as good but with exploitable weaknesses and who's counter-metagame really wasn't developed yet is now semi-extinct in the tourney scene. The same thing with Lucario really, although I don't think he was ever as popular as Ike.

I just hope the PMBR learns from that because in the long run it's really going to hurt the game if they keep nerfing every character who has something good going for them.

And to be clear I don't think Ike is a horrible character in 2.5 but the fact is he seems to have virtually disappeared from the scene, which is kinda tragic.

Ace if you think that he was just given nerfs with no compensation, then I think you should take another look at the change log. Almost every single thing changed about him has both nerfs and buffs. The nerfs usually outweigh the buffs, but not to extent where it completely cripples him. I'll give you an example, down tilt in 2.1 meteored on the entire hitbox. Now this is the exact change it got to 2.5, "Ike's Down Tilt hits slightly faster, and the hilt sweetspot meteors while the rest of the attack sends upward". Its a nerf most definitely, but it still functions more or less the same when edge guarding, it just requires more commitment from the player, because of the spacing requirement the move has. To add to that, it gained a slight increase in speed, and a quicker move allows for more to follow with and from, while generally being safer. I'll give another example, one of the hardest hit things about ike was his quick draw game. The initial distance it got was nerfed, it got a requirement on when it could be jced, and his most used option, jc grab, got a slight decrease in range. Now if look at all this without taking all of his changes into account, then yes he does seem like he got hit hard by the nerf bat, but thats why you should pay attention to all of his changes. To compensate for all this, all of his throws, save for back throw, had their base knockback decreased, while their growth increased. What this means is that even though its harder for ike to get the qd into jc grab, when he actually does land it, its much easier to capitalize off it, not only because of the reduced distance it sends in the earlier percents, but also because of his better dd. I could go on for longer about the different nerfs and buffs he got, but I think you get the point by now.
Basically ike is still ike lol. His play style hasn't changed, he just doesn't get away with as much, and requires more commitment and careful thought from the player. The same thing can be applied to lucario, less free more thought basically.

To your comment about the lack of ike players now, its just that people like to play characters that are good and easy to pick up. Thats probably why there are so many bowser players these days. He isn't a really technically demanding character, and he has been proven to be a really good character. It also helps if the character in question is popular as a character, thats probably why even with armada's success, pit won't gain much recognition because he isn't a very popular character. The general consensus I've gathered from people is that he is kinda annoying lol.

One thing I'd like to say also is that the pmbr took a long time to consider changing ike and lucario. It wasn't just, "oh vro beat hungrybox, NERF OH MER GERD!". They had many discussions with not just the public, but themselves and experimented quite a bit before coming to a conclusion. Another thing I'd like to point out, because a lot of people tend to forget this, is that this is still a demo, which means things will change. It has been stated from day one, that absolutely everything is subject to change. So while the pmbr tries its best to preserve features that someone has dedicated to, they will change said feature if its in the best interest for the project, so please try to be understanding.

So yeah...sorry for the long off topic post, its really wordy lol, and Ace, this isn't a personal attack on your character, I really don't have anything against you. Its just your post kinda bothered me a little...so I had to throw my $.02 on the matter.

 

[Ace55]

So yeah...sorry for the long off topic post, its really wordy lol, and Ace, this isn't a personal attack on your character, I really don't have anything against you. Its just your post kinda bothered me a little...so I had to throw my $.02 on the matter.

No problem, good post. I did read the change log extensively when it came out, reading it again to be sure of what I'm saying. And I realize very well that the PMBR didn't go "oh vro beat hungrybox, NERF OH MER GERD!" but the Ike complaints were pretty extreme for a pretty long time. Which I guess did nearly force them to do something about him since at a certain point they have to listen to their player base. But I still feel like they went overboard with some changes (recovery both vertically and horizontally nerfed for instance, no compensation for that afaik).

 

[iode]

Which I guess did nearly force them to do something about him since at a certain point they have to listen to their player base.

Actually, I disagree with the idea that the PMBR should be at the whim and will of the player base. It's bad precedent to push changes, whether negative or positive, just because the player base popularizes its opinion. Of course, PMBR should continue to listen, but ultimately changes should and should only occur if their expertise and process of triage deems it a plausible improvement. A sterile, scientific approach, lacking in emotions and crowd-sourced opinions, is the best form of approach.

I'm really glad to see the PMBR being surgical in their approach to balancing the game. It's a great feeling to know that heavy forethought, fairness, and even some good 'ol number crunching was done to tweak each character.

 

[Ace55]

I agree with that sentiment but at the end of the day they're making this game for 'us' and they want it to be successful. At a certain point they'll will be pressured to change something if the target audience shows a lot of dislike towards it.

They're not at the whim of you, me or any individual but as a group we the players definitively have influence.

If we all would have ******* about 2.1 Ike being an underwhelming character and nobody would have used him (successfully) then we would not have gotten this Ike.

 

[MVP]

We're getting, what's soon to be, the greatest smash game of all time.... For free.... I think we otta give the PMBR some more trust and respect. They know what they're doing and every care in the world will be addressed when the day is done.

 

[The_NZA]

Armada's good. If anything, watching that first set showed me that even when Armada is so obviously outplaying mango, 3 usmashes with fox later, he can still make it look close in one or two of those games. I swear I saw Pit die at 80% to one of those.

****ing fox.

 

[Shimesaba]

Armada still excels at picking characters with very safe and powerful onstage and offstage edgeguard games (negligible risk; moderate or better reward). Fuzzyness is still atrocious at commentary and should be sat down and forced to listen to this trash.

Approach projectiles in fighting games (and PM is close enough...) are, in general, something that should be treated extremely carefully, and I don't like seeing Pit, who is already reasonably well-rounded, get one too. That said, as long as the PMBR has no intention of reevaluating Falco, I don't feel that Pit particularly needs to be nerfed either.

 

[Shimesaba]

Edit: this was a double post, I meant to edit and I quoted. Please remove.

 

[Ace55]

Fuzzyness is still atrocious at commentary and should be sat down and forced to listen to this trash.

Liked just because of this part.

 

[Bryonato]

Same here hahaha

 

[Ace55]

Ok, this is now the official 'get Fuzzyness off the mic fund' thread. I'll happily throw in 10 bucks if I never have to hear his 'commentary' again.

 

[Vixen]

pits range sucks, and all of his moves are crouch cancelled to high percentage. none of his moves are safe on shield even spaced.

people are just dumb and haven't learned anti-pit technology.

 

[iode]

pits range sucks, and all of his moves are crouch cancelled to high percentage. none of his moves are safe on shield even spaced.

people are just dumb and haven't learned anti-pit technology.

From my experience, shield grabbing is anti-pit technology. Mango just didn't grab at all against Armada for some reason, he always tried for something more fancy like shine out of shield or Dairs out of shield when he could have just skipped to the part where Armada dies by grabbing. Although, to be honest, Pit does fly really far even at lower percentages when up thrown by Fox, not sure if it should be lower considering Pit's relative heaviness.

 

[EpixAura]

Honestly, I feel like Pit is in the ideal place for a P:M character. We wanted the characters to be the equivalent of a Melee top tier, and I feel like Pit fits the bill perfectly. He's definitely high/top tier in P:M, but he's not broken.
I do feel that his arrows could use a bit of a nerf, perhaps with some buffs to his Down-B and more knockback on his back or forward throw to balance it out.

Regarding the sets between Armada and Mango, Mango was clearly unfamiliar with the matchup and also wasn't playing his best. On the other hand, Armada knew the matchup near perfectly - both the spacie matchup, and the Mango matchup. Also, while I'm not entirely sure on this, I believe Armada has played a good bit more P:M than Mango, and I saw him using a few P:M physics and mechanics to his advantage. Plus, it's Armada we're talking about, and while it was a 6-0, many of the games were pretty close. If Mango had been beaten by someone most people haven't even heard of, it would be a different story, but that isn't the case here.

 

[Armada]

Yeah I know spacies from melee and have a pretty good understand of them. But I would not say playing a entierly new char means I know the Pit vs spacie MU that well. Of course it was in advantage for me to know more about spacies then Mango knew about Pit but I have basically played 5games vs Fox and 3 vs Falco before that.

I don't know how much Mango has played PM so I will not act like I know it. My PM experience is basically entering 5 tournaments and playing a very few times at Mike Haggars place. That is maybe more then Mango but it's not like I have played the game that much.

 

[Vixen]

Pit is in my humble opinion near the top of high tier. He has some pretty horrible match ups, and more bad match ups than fox/falco/wolf/sanic/sheik/paff.

Also Fox can reliably uair/bair off uthrow, you just have to do it super fast lik you do vs Paff.

 

[BlinkIV]

I do agree with Pit being the top of high tier, possibly ending up in top tier.

What MU's do you think are horrible for Pit? I'd like to discuss that sometime in the thread with you.

 

[Vixen]

Falco, Sheik, charizard, link, and yink are all bleh match ups.

 

[BlinkIV]

I agree for the most part, I don't normally have trouble with Charizard or the Links, but Falco. Yeah it's tough, but then I throw him offstage, and all of a sudden, the MU becomes even

 

[Vixen]

Play good links who are familiar with pm and are good at throwing things/getting grabs and you'll learn to hate link.

I have kiraflax to play with who is IMHO one of the top pm zards and he does super well vs me in tournament.

My only really good falco exp is a few games vs mdz who I barely won because of clutch gimps, kels who we went 1-1 before he had to leave, and stricnyn who I narrowly beat.

I feel like the only reason I beat them was their unfamiliarity with some of pits options.

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2

 

[Nguz95]

I personally feel like Link is a sleeper character. He has a ton of great stuff going for him, like his projectiles, sword range and sex kick. The only thing I can think of that can really limit him is his recovery, which is solid, but not great. I really think a good Link could cause some real problems for just about anyone.

 

[Vixen]

Link is high tier.

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2

 

[Nguz95]

If you read the Link boards they are convinced he sucks. Apparently he received some serious nerfs from the transition to 2.5. He still looks pretty good to me though.

 

[Vixen]

The link mains are bad so its k.

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[Nguz95]

The link mains are bad so its k.

Sent from my Event using Tapatalk 2

That's pretty funny. Even Hylian was complaining about it though. I don't see what the problem is. He has comparable range to Marth and a million ways to use his projectiles. There is so much that's good about him.