BBR Weekly Character Discussion #7: Ice Climbers

[Rubberbandman]

I count waft killing at earlier percents than normal a trick.

 

[Aglow]

No, we pretty much know what they can do. We can't do all of it consistently because some desynchs require a 1 frame timing but we know how to do them.

Knowing how to do them doesn't mean we do them correctly, or to their max potential. Thats like a snake saying, "Yeah, I can throw grenades, so I have exhausted the grenade game possibility" when other snakes clearly have more developed and creative grenade games.

If you [plural] haven't seen this yet, check out the first 50 seconds of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgPaC7W0GU

 

[Smoom77]

LOL Aglow. That was amazing.

 

[Hylian]

Knowing how to do them doesn't mean we do them correctly, or to their max potential. Thats like a snake saying, "Yeah, I can throw grenades, so I have exhausted the grenade game possibility" when other snakes clearly have more developed and creative grenade games.

If you [plural] haven't seen this yet, check out the first 50 seconds of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgPaC7W0GU

..My only point was that we know how to do pretty much every desynch. Or I do at least. And if you don't know how desynching can change match-ups you should pay more attention to your character. I know how my desynch would affect match-ups, I just can't put it into practice because it's so hard.

I'm not really sure what the video was for.

 

[Aglow]

I don't see many ice climbers exercising their desynch abilities in creative fashions. Again. knowing the desynchs doesn't mean you know what kind of impact they will have...one cant know that until one explores their intricate and involved executions, and knows how and when to apply said execututions.

I was hoping the video would have an "Oh wow" effect on any climbers watching; sure we know how to item desynch, but are we applying it as well/creatively as we could be? It seemed to relate.

 

[Hylian]

I don't see many ice climbers exercising their desynch abilities in creative fashions. Again. knowing the desynchs doesn't mean you know what kind of impact they will have...one cant know that until one explores their intricate and involved executions, and knows how and when to apply said execututions.

I was hoping the video would have an "Oh wow" effect on any climbers watching; sure we know how to item desynch, but are we applying it as well/creatively as we could be? It seemed to relate.

Except I've been stressing that for almost a year now, and certainly since the first time I saw kakera play. The first thing I did was made a topic concerning his desynching, learned how to do it and all aspects of it, then applied it to my game sort of. I say sort of because at the time I didn't care for playing or practicing much I just went to tournaments to see friends and hang out with people. Now that I've moved into a new smash scene it's rekindled my competitive spirit and I've been exploring those executions.

Though I wouldn't say I desynch at quite the level Kakera does I think I do so at a similar level, especially with items. The video didn't have "wow" effect on me because I already do things similar to that when fighting characters like diddy/zss. Even without items at the tournament I won this past saturday I "wowed" the people there quite a few times with desynching tricks.

I'm not even in disagreement with you or trying to argue in any matter, these boards just frustrate me. People talk about all the things we could do with desynching, but 99% of them don't even test them or try to find things themselves. People aren't confident enough in themselves to think they could apply something new to their game that may affect the entire characters metagame they just follow people who already have good results. While learning from people is never bad, looking up to them and believing their input without even applying your own knowledge will get you nowhere. People try things and just assume they aren't doing it right, rather than just realizing maybe something just doesn't work in that particular situation?

For example when people talk about the wario match-up they say just pivot grab. That is a horrible explanation for a match-up and really won't help anyone beat a good wario it will just make them predictable and easy to punish. People don't try things out for themselves enough. I feel like I can say this with just mainly because I basically discovered chaingrabbing. I was the first person doing alt throws backwards without pivoting. I made up hobbling(though I didn't name it), I discovered it was easy to do to heavy characters(discovered it on marth with fthrow), I found several useful desynchs, flashy kills, effective chaingrabbing...I did work on this character. I only say this though because I want people to think for themselves and try to improve with creativity. I don't want credit for anything, I don't care at all, but you can see why it annoys me when people talk about untapped potential without putting in effort themselves.

Anyways, I feel dumb for talking about myself so much and I went off on a huge tangent, so sorry. I'm not a good example of an inspiring player because I don't practice what I preach. I don't practice nearly enough, I just rely on things I know already. I stopped trying to be creative awhile ago just because I've been busy with life. So I don't really care how I place or how people perceive my skill, I would just like to see other people with that drive I used to have...it's always admiring to see. (And fun to learn from )

 

[toobusytocare]

i wish pivot grabbing wario was all it took

although i think im pretty good at that matchup

 

[Aglow]

Except I've been stressing that for almost a year now, and certainly since the first time I saw kakera play. The first thing I did was made a topic concerning his desynching, learned how to do it and all aspects of it, then applied it to my game sort of. I say sort of because at the time I didn't care for playing or practicing much I just went to tournaments to see friends and hang out with people. Now that I've moved into a new smash scene it's rekindled my competitive spirit and I've been exploring those executions. etc.

I remember the kakera thread; that is how I found him in the first place. Thank you for that. Your anoyance is understandable. I could write a really long post, but I think I can shorten my current thoughts to a few points.

I appreciate the incredible work you've done for the character.

My prior post was not an attempt to ignore or slight this work.

I posted to encourage less confident ice climber players, much like myself, to start mixing it up and trying things out. People talk a lot on this board. They also need to play a lot.

I am not a person who talks about exploring potential and doesnt do it himself. I take advice, but I know that all control and matchup experience is going to have to come firsthand.

 

[Hylian]

Makes sense .

 

[DeLux]

I have been really tempted to posting some big long discussion of the state of the IC's metagame but have held off until now because in terms of experience, I'm fairly new to the community. I believe I haven't established enough credibility to form a worthwhile opinion. However, I've noticed that two "schools of play" have come into prominence, and desyncing is at the crux of the split.

School 1: Don't rely on desyncs if you can. It's too character specific and you should learn Brawl, not Ice Climbers.
School 2: Desyncing needs to be explored more. It creates situations unique to the Ice Climbers that can't be recreated by another character, making it advantageous.

I'd name names about who fits into what category, but really you know who you are. Recently, it seems that School 1 has been steadily gaining prominence, just read the thread for evidence. However, School 1 is a dead end imo purely because it's solely dependent on advancing player skill rather than advancing the character's known capabilities. At the same time, people sit and talk as if they belong to School 2, but never really do anything to advance said school (ala Hylians recent post).

Edit: To be clear, I am not saying Hylian is the one not advancing the art of desync. I am crediting him with making the point that people aren't.

In this regard, our character metagame advancement is going to be limited because each person is going to subscribe to their respective school via advice from the good players. If it continues to exist in this binary, and it really does seem like a binary, we are going to go nowhere.

I propose a third school. This third school ideally encompasses both the former schools. In my opinion, the ideal Ice Climber would be able to flow between the two schools seamlessly during a match, creating positive benefit by mixup/halo effect. If anyone has debated this with me previously, I like to compare it to mixing pitches in baseball. The advancement in this school would then examine the situations as to when to switch between the old schools. Obviously this would end up being very match up specific. That's why it's really a shame our community doesn't have an active match up thread. Obviously this would take a substantial amount of work. Probably more so than any other character. But since we have double the characters, we have nearly double the possibilities. Which would require twice the work.

In conclusion, it's really the price we have to pay to get our character to the top where it belongs.

 

[swordgard]

I have been really tempted to posting some big long discussion of the state of the IC's metagame but have held off until now because in terms of experience, I'm fairly new to the community. I believe I haven't established enough credibility to form a worthwhile opinion. However, I've noticed that two "schools of play" have come into prominence, and desyncing is at the crux of the split.

School 1: Don't rely on desyncs if you can. It's too character specific and you should learn Brawl, not Ice Climbers.
School 2: Desyncing needs to be explored more. It creates situations unique to the Ice Climbers that can't be recreated by another character, making it advantageous.

I'd name names about who fits into what category, but really you know who you are. Recently, it seems that School 1 has been steadily gaining prominence, just read the thread for evidence. However, School 1 is a dead end imo purely because it's solely dependent on advancing player skill rather than advancing the character's known capabilities. At the same time, people sit and talk as if they belong to School 2, but never really do anything to advance said school (ala Hylians recent post).

Edit: To be clear, I am not saying Hylian is the one not advancing the art of desync. I am crediting him with making the point that people aren't.

In this regard, our character metagame advancement is going to be limited because each person is going to subscribe to their respective school via advice from the good players. If it continues to exist in this binary, and it really does seem like a binary, we are going to go nowhere.

I propose a third school. This third school ideally encompasses both the former schools. In my opinion, the ideal Ice Climber would be able to flow between the two schools seamlessly during a match, creating positive benefit by mixup/halo effect. If anyone has debated this with me previously, I like to compare it to mixing pitches in baseball. The advancement in this school would then examine the situations as to when to switch between the old schools. Obviously this would end up being very match up specific. That's why it's really a shame our community doesn't have an active match up thread. Obviously this would take a substantial amount of work. Probably more so than any other character. But since we have double the characters, we have nearly double the possibilities. Which would require twice the work.

In conclusion, it's really the price we have to pay to get our character to the top where it belongs.

Knowledge, Yomi, Technical skill. Those 3 elements need to be mastered before you can become the best. I am not against desynching, but too much desynching leaves plenty of holes. But no desynching means no enhanced trapping abilities.

Its all a matter of balance.


EDIT: I think I even have that written on my board full of ideas and nicknamed it De/Synchro style.

 

[DeLux]

Knowledge, Yomi, Technical skill. Those 3 elements need to be mastered before you can become the best. I am not against desynching, but too much desynching leaves plenty of holes. But no desynching means no enhanced trapping abilities.

Its all a matter of balance.


EDIT: I think I even have that written on my board full of ideas and nicknamed it De/Synchro style.

I agree and disagree. It's really hard for me to explain what I'm trying to say, so we really might be on the same page without me knowing it. But saying "It's a matter of balance" isn't quite there for me. I think more accurately "it's all a matter of how you use the balance". Obviously there are times to be synced. Obviously there are times to be desynced. I've been experimenting with an idea of labeling it in terms of frame advantage and punishing power respectively to better explain. But I haven't quite completely formulated the entire theory yet. I just hope that when I do figure it out, it isn't dismissed as "too character specific" or "too player specific". There's no such thing as "too specific" imo.

I have resolved to do everything I can to expand the IC metagame. I might not ever have the skills that some of you guys have, but I'll have the knowledge. Recently, E_A and I have been doing a lot of stuff involving frame testing/advantage that might help us out. I'd say more, but we haven't finished interpreting the findings.

 

[meepxzero]

relying on desynches hurts ur game more because its gimmicky and there are holes in doing them *biggest hole is the fact it causes tripping to happen a crap load*

i love doing them, but its better to hard read ur opponent.

 

[Sieguest]

I agree and disagree. It's really hard for me to explain what I'm trying to say, so we really might be on the same page without me knowing it.

I think you both are on the same page, except Swordgard just posted a tl;dr version of your post. Basically saying almost never desyncing is cutting the character too short but too much desyncing also becomes detrimental to the character.

But saying "It's a matter of balance" isn't quite there for me. I think more accurately "it's all a matter of how you use the balance".

Methinks you two are using the term "balance" in two different ways here.
If I read Swordgard's post correctly I think his "balance" is referring to times when you desync and times when you stay synced. Whereas your "balance" is referring to the tide of the match at the moment.

Anyway I agree pretty much with what both of you have said. We can't stick to either extreme and expect to be at the top of the game. Play smart, know when being synced or desynced is best for the situation at hand, and perform.

My half a cent right there.

 

[Aglow]

I am interested in this vein of thought. I have a hard time remembering that I don't have to desynch.

 

[Prawn]

if ur opponent is being campy - bait and do dmg with desyncs

if ur opponent is all up in ur grill - dont do desyncs just pivot grab or shield grab him

 

[toobusytocare]

if ur opponent is being campy - bait and do dmg with desyncs

if ur opponent is all up in ur grill - dont do desyncs just pivot grab or shield grab him

mmhmmmm...

 

[Joe_Cool]

mmhmmmm...

I agree :D

 

[o-Serin-o]

Indeed, it is.

He's become a smart player after getting thrashed by me so often, constantly playing WiFi, and reading about characters whenever he can.

After that, he picked up Ice Climbers and practices chaingrabs about 30 minutes a day. Used to be a lot longer.

He still can't beat me, but when he gets lucky and someone else takes me out of the tournament, he does work.

Just popped in to say that the last part is utter lol.

I'll beat your brother next time we play in brackets. :3

EDIT: ICs are stupid. Point being is, go aggro, grab an IC and fthrow each IC and **** from there.

 

[Sinji]

Can someone give me the link to the ice climbers melee thread?

 

[Rubberbandman]

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=83

Thats their forums, search through there for what you need.