BBR Weekly Character Discussion #10: Pikachu

[[FBC] ESAM]

What character are you using?

*Looks at Reflex's sig*

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What character are you using?

Any of them, really. Pokémon Trainer, Wario, Sheik, and I'm thinking about using King Dedede.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Luigi is actually very good against DeDeDe so long as the Luigi knows how to space/avoid grabs.

So many people just write it off as a huge advantage for DeDeDe because they don't understand the "infinite" and that it isn't actually even an infinite until like 100% or so.

Luigi combos the crap out of DeDeDe and kills him at ridiculously low percents. Luigi probably has an advantage-- the "infinite" hardly even matters against him.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

D3 can CG Luigi if he does it perfectly...a normal CG off the level. That kinda destroys him because then it is edgeguarding which is Luigi's most unhappy time.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

D3 can CG Luigi if he does it perfectly...a normal CG off the level. That kinda destroys him because then it is edgeguarding which is Luigi's most unhappy time.

True-- it's a close match. It's just that in my experience, a good Luigi can avoid grabs (and thus most gimps) and get crazy low % kills.

Also-- are there people who consistently pull of the perfect CG on Luigi as DeDeDe? I've never seen anyone actually do it, much less consistently.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Eh...King Dedede has ridiculous spacing tools against Luigi. Turn around and D-Smash. Use your B-Air intelligently. Poke him with F-Tilt. Use D-Tilt liberally. You're better off not trying to fight him in the air; just wait for a N-Air or airdodge to the ground and pivot grab. He's pretty much forced to roll toward Dedede at some point, which is a free grab and five CG throws into a B-Throw if you don't panic or go into autopilot.

I think if Dedede players worked on it, it would be 6-4, Dedede's favor, at least.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I think if Dedede players worked on it, it would be 6-4, Dedede's favor, at least.

Yeah, probably so-- but that's hard to say since there are so few good Luigis. Do we know if Boss or Big Lou routinely play any good DeDeDe's and how they do against them?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, probably so-- but that's hard to say since there are so few good Luigis. Do we know if Boss or Big Lou routinely play any good DeDeDe's and how they do against them?

I see BigLou play about once a month, since we both go to some monthlies near Atlanta.

The only Dedede players I can remember him going against are Albino (who isn't very good) and my older brother (who is trying to move away from playing Dedede). Lounis says he hates getting chaingrabbed, but I can't remember the last Dedede he's lost to, if any.

My older brother just wrecks him with Ice Climbers nowadays, hah.

I'll try my hand at Dedede against him in some friendlies the next time I see him and see what happens.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Cool, let me know how that works out.

 

[Pierce7d]

Squirtle gets in on Marth so easy it's stupid. The reason Marth ***** Squirtle is because one pivot grab and you're dead (GR CG to Tipper Dair offstage)

Ivysaur outranges Marth, so the key to this MU is not shying away from grab, since Marth has difficulty getting in.

Charizard is tough. It's not that bad, but it's in Marth's favor.

Squirtle doesn't have one, but he gets in easily. The other characters just use an anti-air. If Marth is Fairing blindly, then just FH Dair him with Wario after airdodging around a lot, and punish approaches. D3's ftilt ***** it lol. Crouching also helps you powershield a falling Fair.

 

[Hylian]

Very interested in Pika vs IC's since I've played and beaten all the other pikas except for you Esam . I really don't see it as even, especially watching those videos.

IC...I don't understand why people think this is a bad match-up. Maybe because he can't space his melee moves? I honestly don't know, but I have always seen this match-up as even. Pikachu can completely molest nana when they are separated.

First off, one of the main reasons I think this match-up is bad for Pika(or any character that IC's beat really) is because pika has such a hard time separating IC's safely. I can grab you out of pretty much all of your moves and camping does nothing because your damage output is mediocre compared to IC's and all my moves go through jolts. I don't even need to shield. Sitting on platforms will just get you uaired(and yes if IC's full hop they get ***** by nair OOS but I'm not going to full hop) and IC's can uair twice in one short hop making it pretty much impossible for pika to punish while above them on a platform. Dropping through after them will get you hit or grabbed.

Pika also takes damage FAST in this match-up. A lot of people try to SDI through blizzard into nair or uair or something but if you desynch properly that won't happen at all lol you will just eat an utilt or grab after sdi'ing out of the blizzard. Ice blocks are very good for edgeguarding pikachu and I've gotten KOs in tournament just by desynching ibs can carrying pika to the bottom of the stage. Not to mention blizzarding the edge while holding it ruins pretty much all of pikas recovery options and forces him to go to the stage where he eats either damage or a grab depending on how far he goes.

Squall is great because people try to SDI out of it but it's pretty much impossible if the IC player just follows your DI. You can try going up or down but it won't mattter, pretty much no one I've played can SDI out of my squall because I rise or lower it depending on how they DI. The reason the is great against Pika is because they often jump right out of it making it easy to grab or uair them on landing, and if they don't jump it combos into uair(if they airdodge it's a frametrap which leads to nair/Squall or even belay)

None of Pikachus throws work on IC's, they generally just get grabbed out of all of them, even if they try the pummel hits to keep the other climber away(god this is old and easy to get around lol)

I guess I'll move on now...

If D-smash separates them...nana is dead.

If you Dsmash then you are dead...? It's very easy to DI out of dsmash so that you land right beside pika and grab him. If they shield the dsmash it's a grab for sure, a lot of times pikas will dsmash while I'm landing from the air and I will get hit on purpose so I can just DI out and grab lol. So yeah..if Dsmash separates them nana is dead but that shouldn't happen, you should die when you dsmash. It isn't even safe vs Sopo.

Because of her AI of always returning to popo, she will run right into thunder. Her DI will set her up into another thunder and possibly a third thunder if necessary.

This CAN be a problem if she gets hit by the first thunder it is hard to get her back. I(and probably SG/ other good IC players..not sure how well known this is) know how to influence her DI/what she does even when she's not near me. For example if I mash jump when she is far away and she is above you, she will footstool you if you jump under her with an attack or something, and if I just hold shield she often airdodges attacks when far away from me. It's not as consistent as I'd like but it often works and has saved my nana in tournament a lot.

FH nair works charms on IC fishing for a grab, and T-jolt can skip over ice blocks and obviously goes through blizzard.

FH nair puts you into a bad position when shielded and you can be grabbed out of it pretty easily if it's expected, T-jolts don't usually skip over IB's, they usually trade and IB's are much faster and it will never skip over all of them if they are desynched. Not that T-jolt does anything in the first place, every single one of IC's a moves beat it, as well as Squall if you just get it to hit the sides.

Pikachu also has a very potent edgeguarding tool against up-b. WHen nana goes and grabs the ledge, pikachu can fall off either with a nair or bair and hit popo on his way up, which ends the stock.

Yep, it's annoying. Generally just use squall if you are in position to do that.

For Squall, Pikachu has Thunder to hit them out of it. If not fishing for grabs, Pikachu and Ice Climbers have about the same spacing with their attacks (Hammer vs tail). Pikachu's are much faster and can combo much better.

Thunder is pretty easy to avoid with squall, I rarely find myself being it by it, you can just slow squall down in the air and wait for it to finish or pass under it or over it depending on how far down or up pika is. Usually just wait for it to finish though. Squall lasts forever. Don't agree with you about the speed and comboility of their moves though, pikas aren't much faster than their aerials and IC's certainly have more range and priority and combo very well.


On top of all of this, Sopo can CG Pika till 70%, and doesn't even have to start dashing till past 45%, 0-45% is all walking(similar to DDD's small step CG)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

B-throw is pretty efficient in separating them lol.

 

[Hylian]

B-throw is pretty efficient in separating them lol.

Bthrow gets you grabbed. All I do is mash A and nana/popo jabs and it's a free grab. Bthrow takes forever and is the easiest throw to get a grab from lol. Fthrow is the hardest because of the hitbox.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

F-throw has easy timing though, you can just shield till you see one of them get thrown off the press A lol. I really need to play some of the best ICs and see how I do. I just don't see the match-up as being that bad.

 

[Hylian]

Yeah which is why you shouldn't grab unless nana isn't near popo at all IMO. Pika can't grab them safely while synched. Here is an example of me punishing pikas bthrow pretty easily:

Look at 0:55:

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[[FBC] ESAM]

That was a horrible time to do that though...

 

[Hylian]

I don't see your point? Any time while they are synced is a horrible time to grab them because the other climber will just hit you. If they aren't synced then you have already separated them. My point was grabbing doesn't help separate them at all and isn't safe when they are synced.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Fair enough. Also, FH nair can't really be grabbed...and it puts me above you which isn't really a bad position considering I can QA away and to the level.

 

[Hylian]

Fair enough. Also, FH nair can't really be grabbed...and it puts me above you which isn't really a bad position considering I can QA away and to the level.

You can be grabbed out of your jump at any point, including while you are doing an attack. It's how I get most of my grabs on wario players or other characters that jump a lot, just read a jump and grab right when they jump trying to get away from me or something like that. Same concept applies to pika's FH nair. Don't get me wrong it's a very good thing to do and I can't always grab it, just if I expect your jump I can usually grab you out of it with a dash grab so nana won't be hit by the nair. I say it puts you in a bad position because Ic's uair is so good and you can't really do anything to them when you are above them you just have to retreat.


I think the main thing Pika has going for him in this match-up is edgeguarding as a well placed T-jolt can take my stock as well as some other things that I would rather not elaborate on haha. Also, it's good that you are a fast masher, that probably helps a lot when playing most Ic's that don't buffer their throws correctly. PikaPika is like that as well.

 

[Overswarm]

I like pikachu as a character because despite that he is a flawed character FULL of weak attacks, poor setups, and has a hard time getting consistent KOs, his mobility and ever-present unique options allow him to overcome his weaknesses on a consistent basis.

Pikachu doesn't really "have" bad matchups. He has a few that are more troublesome than others, but all in all a bad MU for pika is just one that pika needs to concentrate on rather than switch characters for.

He luckily does well against most of the top tiers and has a lot of unique CGs to help ease the amount of skill needed to do well with him, but we're never going to see a huge influx of pikachu players in the tournament scene. Any good player can pick him up, learn him, and do well, but pika takes so much more dedication than most other characters that he is forever going to be "that one weird matchup" we find in tournaments.

 

[sandslash]

that guy isnt using pika right though in my opinion, pika is quick and for that reason better to use control of your movements more than the moveset. Both are important but i think pika is better with gamers that shoot in and hit while they can then escape i feel like a great pika player could beat a great ic player but thats just my opinion. Oh and pika does have some poor set ups but he is actually quite strong or can be used that way his real weakness is his damage.

 

[The Truth!]

Dang, I agree with pretty much everything everyone said surprisingly. Even OS for the most part. One thing...

I do think ICs are bad for pika, but I disagree with Hylian on why the mu is bad for pika and some other stuff. Wont go into MU details but heres three things that caught my eye.

1. That bthrow which was obviously a bad time to do. Popo tried to fsmash before pika even grabbed. To me it looked like he intended to fsmash, then got grabbed before the move came out, but nana still followed up with hers.

2. Also dsmash, I dont think a competent pikachu would dsmash without expecting it to land. Anyone with moderate range can put some serious damage on pika. But I have never heard seen or experienced anyone DIing out of dsmash and then grabbing, and asked around a bit just to see if anyone else had either. Even if its somehow technically possible to do, I doubt that it would be easy and would probably require incredible luck along with incorrect DI input.

3. Im pretty sure FH nair properly space is safe, but yeah if read it can be punished, although thats true for most things.

 

[KayLo!]

I disagree with Pika being a "stupidly difficult" matchup for DDD. Skimmed over everything tbqh, but that caught my eye. (Toon Link isn't that bad for him either.)

Imo, the matchup is pretty even, probably slightly in Pika's favor.

EDIT: Also..... lol @Gallax implying ease of character use should influence tier list position. ;;

 

[Stealth Raptor]

well, metaknight........

very good discussion, i dont think i could add anything more

 

[KayLo!]

MK's just a good character. Him being easy to use doesn't make him better or worse..... only godawfully annoying that everyone can pick him up.

 

[Shaya]

So Pikachu does okay against marth because of SHDF?

I'm glad Pierce jumped in.
Lollllll.