Data Bayonetta Match-Up Thread!

[Tobi_Whatever]

Pretty much. Even so, I don't expect other Rosalina players to play the same as me, I've been told my playstyle has more to it than most Rosalina players, so Bayonetta might not be too bad early on, especially since she's new and Rosalina players will have to get into the MU first.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Bayonetta does in general, in any case.

I don't think Dabuz will **** up too much if he ever meets one in a tourney.

 

[BlackCephie]

I'd have to highly disagree with that so far.

-It is so, so easy for Rosalina to DI away from almost all of Bayonetta's combos because of how light she is, I basically never get hit by them beyond the first or second hit. Made even worse by Luma, because if Bayonetta catches Luma in the combo too, it adds hit lag frames that effect Bayonetta and Luma, but not Rosalina, giving Rosalina even more time to just float away. So that's Bayo's biggest strength not getting to shine. By contrast, Rosalina with Luma has virtually unlimited custom combo options in the hands of worthy player.

-Bayonetta has a very bad approach game, Rosalina has both an exceptional zoning game and approach game. So her biggest weakness is capitalised on too.

-Rosalina has way more reliable KO options and set ups, early ones too.

-All of Bayonetta's Smash Attacks are clanked by Rosalina's multi-hit moves (rapid jab and F-air), and EVERYTHING Luma can throw out. The latter is because Luma is sort of considered an "item" whenever he attacks, and items clank with Wicked Weaves. If you're curious to look more into this, another example of "Luma attacks = item attack" is to attack a Ghastly in Smash Run in the 3DS version with Luma - Ghastly is normally only damaged by items and projectiles, but all of Luma's attacks damage and launch Ghastly as if Ghastly were a normal enemy being hit by normal attacks. This essentially makes Luma the ulitmate counter to Bayonetta's Smash Attacks and Luma can easily counter them by using an attack that would hit Bayonetta mid-animation.

-As expected, Rosalina can still severely outrange Bayonetta, especially with Luma disjoints.

-Rosalina excels at punishing opponents, especially if Luma is around. Bayonetta is one of the most punishable characters in the game when looking at a lot of her attacks and how their frame data is. She has a few safe ones but they're not much of a threat anyway, especially when Bayonetta can't approach well.

-Rosalina & Luma are effected separately by Witch Time. And if Luma is Witch Time'd during Luma Shot, Witch Time treats him like a projectile, not a character, and he will whiz by Bayonetta anyway. Bayonetta will not be harmed by Luma Shot but this gives time for Luma to counter or Rosalina to approach, as Bayonetta finishes the animation for Witch Time.

I may be forgetting some details but overall, Rosalina is probably one of the worst match-ups for Bayonetta. Too much of her normally good tools, are just heavily gimped or not viable at all against Rosalina.

In general, I think the bad MUs Bayonetta seems to have so far are:



Maybe too but I think she has more of a chance there, not too sure though.

She does very well against lots of the cast though. However, a lot of these characters aren't very viable to begin with.

I played several matches in a row against Rosa today and I have some input on this matchup.

For one thing, all of what you said here is valid, however against Rosa you really shouldnt be going for combos here, which doesnt hurt Bayo much. Moreover, killing luma outright FIRST is incredibly easy for bayo, and she has more than enough mobility to avoid Rosa's most viable attacks while doing so.

This battle takes patience. Its not a hard matchup, but it is a long one. Further more, because of rosa's disjointed hit boxes it is incedibly easy to WT her, at which point luma becomes useless if he isnt already dead. Bullet climax is great here too because Rosa is tall and can only black hole the first few bullets and gets nailed by the rest if you continue to fire.

In the air bair is still amazing and bullet climax damage luma as well and contributes to his ultimate doom.

Check out match two between NinjaLink and Anti. Notice how easy it is for Bayo to eliminate Luma.
http://youtu.be/fdyBx4aq0To

 

[pikazz]

played against a row of really great ZSSs with Bayonetta and I want to give my personal opinion:

I feel like this is an even match up as both can do pretty much the same but in diffirent ways except its executed the opposite for eachother. in this match up, I think it should be all about the mindgames

Pro for ZSS:
UAir to UpB kills earlier due Bayonettas lightweight
She can crawl under our Bullet Climax if we overdo it
Paralyzer is enough low to travel under bullet climax and will get "hit by the bullets" the last seconds
her grab will catch us if we roll back.
our grab range is bad so it doesnt hurt ZSS much on shielding

Pro for Bayonetta:
Witch Time works on ZSS nasty "F/BThrow to DownB spike"
Many of ZSS strings can be shut down with Witch Time
We can recover how we want to when Offstage, even if ZSS threatens with DownB spike
Witch Time at the ledge when ZSS does UpB near ledge or DownB to attack you is a legit thing
ZSS is lightweight so our combos and kills will be earlier
ZSS doesnt have many clanking/lingering hitboxes of witch time
ZSS doesnt have the tool to really stall out Bayonetta, meaning ZSS will most of the time be the one that approaches which we want for punish

 

[ChikoLad]

I played several matches in a row against Rosa today and I have some input on this matchup.

For one thing, all of what you said here is valid, however against Rosa you really shouldnt be going for combos here, which doesnt hurt Bayo much. Moreover, killing luma outright FIRST is incredibly easy for bayo, and she has more than enough mobility to avoid Rosa's most viable attacks while doing so.

This battle takes patience. Its not a hard matchup, but it is a long one. Further more, because of rosa's disjointed hit boxes it is incedibly easy to WT her, at which point luma becomes useless if he isnt already dead. Bullet climax is great here too because Rosa is tall and can only black hole the first few bullets and gets nailed by the rest if you continue to fire.

In the air bair is still amazing and bullet arts damage luma as well and contributes to his ultimate doom.

If you go straight for Luma and ignore Rosalina, Rosalina will just punish you. Especially with a slow character like Bayonetta. And I wouldn't say she has good mobility at all. Rosalina has superior mobility and can keep on Bayonetta's tail.

Luma isn't useless if Rosalina is Witch Time'd since he can still attack (especially in rapid jab) and Witch Time can only be used about twice (regardless of if it connects) per stock before it's utterly useless and ends up getting Bayonetta punished (Nairo showed off that Rosalina can punish Bayonetta for using Witch Time with her jab after the second use. She could also use D-Tilt since that comes out faster). Furthermore, Rosalina can bait Witch Time with Luma, since if only Luma hits, only he falls under it's effect. Which wastes it. And as I do against all characters with counters, I just don't follow-up on combos unless I can hit them before hitstun finishes, since I can just bait an air dodge/whiffed counter and continue then. Very easy against Bayonetta when she really wants to use Witch Time.

And no, Rosalina can absorb all of Bullet Climax. Gravitational Pull is active for about 2 or 3 frames after Rosalina can make another input, meaning she can simply refresh it's effects if need be for perfect coverage against longer lasting projectiles, perfect for absorbing every hit of rapid fire projectiles like this. Plus, like I said before, Rosalina can crouch walk under it. I've been doing this a lot to counter Bayonetta with a D-Tilt poke.

And Bullet Arts really aren't that useful on Luma. You might chip the odd extra percent if you're lucky but he's the smallest target, and the technique is risky as is, so it's not worth how insanely easy it is to punish.

The match won't be very long when Rosalina is racking up the damage and KOs much faster than Bayonetta can. Rosalina just really has little to worry about here.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

it should be worth noticing that bayo can crouch under most of ZSS moves, which helps her a lot on the neutral.

 

[Greda]

Don't do strawpoll. Don't. I'm serious. Stop.

Also I find Rosalina, Sheik, and Sonic easy with Bayo but lol its too early for this.

 

[Otterz]

Witch Timing Sonic's Uair after a Spring and janking him out with the super strong side hitbox of WTwist makes that MU a joke sometimes. I've killed at 20% with that.

I forgot where to find the video/gif for this.

 

[BlackCephie]

If you go straight for Luma and ignore Rosalina, Rosalina will just punish you. Especially with a slow character like Bayonetta. And I wouldn't say she has good mobility at all. Rosalina has superior mobility and can keep on Bayonetta's tail.

Luma isn't useless if Rosalina is Witch Time'd since he can still attack (especially in rapid jab) and Witch Time can only be used about twice (regardless of if it connects) per stock before it's utterly useless and ends up getting Bayonetta punished (Nairo showed off that Rosalina can punish Bayonetta for using Witch Time with her jab after the second use. She could also use D-Tilt since that comes out faster). Furthermore, Rosalina can bait Witch Time with Luma, since if only Luma hits, only he falls under it's effect. Which wastes it. And as I do against all characters with counters, I just don't follow-up on combos unless I can hit them before hitstun finishes, since I can just bait an air dodge/whiffed counter and continue then. Very easy against Bayonetta when she really wants to use Witch Time.

And no, Rosalina can absorb all of Bullet Climax. Gravitational Pull is active for about 2 or 3 frames after Rosalina can make another input, meaning she can simply refresh it's effects if need be for perfect coverage against longer lasting projectiles, perfect for absorbing every hit of rapid fire projectiles like this. Plus, like I said before, Rosalina can crouch walk under it. I've been doing this a lot to counter Bayonetta with a D-Tilt poke.

And Bullet Arts really aren't that useful on Luma. You might chip the odd extra percent if you're lucky but he's the smallest target, and the technique is risky as is, so it's not worth how insanely easy it is to punish.

The match won't be very long when Rosalina is racking up the damage and KOs much faster than Bayonetta can. Rosalina just really has little to worry about here.

If Bayo really wants to kill Luma without getting pinished by Rosa she can. Bayo REALLY isn't slow. Especially given how quickly her nair and bair cancels upon landing. She can basically throw out endless hit boxes and chip away at luma until he dies WHILE Rosa is attempting the punish. Plus the aerial mobility from nair held down for ba is awesome and can be very hard to deal with. You can pretty much frustrate people into running into it or respect and become overly cautious which is good either way, all the while back dashing and throwing other stuff into the mix like ABK. The idea here is to bait, just like every other character, except your main target is Luma, if that is your strategy. Once he dies, there isnt much Rosa can do. On the mobility front, Bayonetta can easily move from one side of the stage to the other with ABK.

Ive also been using dash attack to retreat quickly as people really dont expect it or to get under airborne opponents. It seems wierd, but it gives Bayo a tremendous amount of burst speed.

As far as WT goes, Ill test further, but when I fought Rosa previously and WT'd her, she was stuck in the animation of her previous attack and couldnt cause luma to attack again. If she is ever trying to bait out the WT, its REALLY obvious. Keeping in mind that Luma attacks when Rosa does, its a simple matter to purposely catch Rosa instead, if they are both on the screen. I was even able to WT Rosa AND get batwithin to avoid luma at the same damn time.

On gravitational pull I dont know if this Rosa was mistiming it but I was managing to pop her with at least three shot, and using the cancel to get in between her uses of GP. At some point she was using crawl, but then I just...stopped using BC or cancel it and punished with heel slide, grab or nair on her approach.

As far as bullet arts, I've gotten really good at using it off of nair auto cancel and timing it so that I am the one getting the punish on the inevitable rush in. Against Rosa, its super easy to just stay mobile with nair and constantly hit Luma while avoiding Rosa. This is why its a long battle. If Bayonetta is fighting the match correctly, Rosa is constanty chasing but not getting anywhere, while Bayo is steady trying to get rid of luma in order to get to Rosa more easily.

 

[Peppa]

Holy crap guys, Fox is hard for me.

He starts out lazering which you can crouch under, which is fine, but you are definitely too slow to punish. If you try to neutral b him, the distance it takes for you to hit him due to his out height is at the same length he can punish you with his speed. Once he gets in 's face he completely overwhelms. His frame data is insane comparitvely, its giving me flashbacks to my Shulk maining days against Fox. Witchtime is incredibly hard to use here for me, since the Fox is fast enough to bait and punish with an upsmash.

Any ideas?

 

[BlackCephie]

Holy crap guys, Fox is hard for me.

He starts out lazering which you can crouch under, which is fine, but you are definitely too slow to punish. If you try to neutral b him, the distance it takes for you to hit him due to his out height is at the same length he can punish you with his speed. Once he gets in 's face he completely overwhelms. His frame data is insane comparitvely, its giving me flashbacks to my Shulk maining days against Fox. Witchtime is incredibly hard to use here for me, since the Fox is fast enough to bait and punish with an upsmash.

Any ideas?

Dtilt and nair. Ive only fought one really good fox so far, but I was able to take him in the air and keep him there. Also he gets wrecked by our combos and is edge guarded extemely easily with BC and WT. Bayo gimps him like crazy.

 

[Gecko Moria]

I feel like characters like Pac-Man and Toon Link could be hard for us. They have many projectiles that can be thrown in our general path just to stop our approaches. dABK could be a risky approach against characters like these and if we wanna fly around the stage with specials they can set traps around to prevent that.

 

[Smog Frog]

what makes a matchup difficult for ? if we're going by , it's a combination of:

-being able to escape from combos
-being able to run under/otherwise get around bullet climax to punish
-having a recovery that's not vulnerable to witch time
-the ability to force her to approach

it also seems like it would help to have good throws/command grab to get around witch time.

are there any other characters that meet these criteria? off the top of my head it seems like meet all/a good amount of these criteria. if you'd like me to elaborate i can

 

[Sonicninja115]

what makes a matchup difficult for ? if we're going by , it's a combination of:

-being able to escape from combos
-being able to run under/otherwise get around bullet climax to punish
-having a recovery that's not vulnerable to witch time
-the ability to force her to approach

it also seems like it would help to have good throws/command grab to get around witch time.

are there any other characters that meet these criteria? off the top of my head it seems like meet all/a good amount of these criteria. if you'd like me to elaborate i can

I agree with Mewtwo. He has tools like Disable, Dtilt, Utilt and SB, all those things seem to destroy Bayo's game plan. Dtilt to punish whiffed attacks, which would lead into an easy 40% punish. Disable if you predict a heel slide. Utilt should stifle aerial approaches, including dABK. And Mewtwo's edge guarding game rivals Bayonetta's. It doesn't seem nice for Bayo.

Time isn't Bayo's only option for edge-guarding. Dair spike is easy and safe and BC makes it so they have to recover with Up B. Bair and Nair can gimp easily and Dsmash can 2 frame, especially after her easy ledge-snap.

 

[pikazz]

what makes a matchup difficult for ? if we're going by , it's a combination of:

-being able to escape from combos
-being able to run under/otherwise get around bullet climax to punish
-having a recovery that's not vulnerable to witch time
-the ability to force her to approach

it also seems like it would help to have good throws/command grab to get around witch time.

are there any other characters that meet these criteria? off the top of my head it seems like meet all/a good amount of these criteria. if you'd like me to elaborate i can

Greninja can be a tricky MU due how Greninja can use SideB to get out of easier combos but due how Greninja moves, Bayonetta can get the upperhand.
but I do actually believe his UpB can trigger Witch Time, as it can trigger on smallest "hurting thing" (hydro pump do hurt a little) and Shadow Sneak can be WT but requires really good mindgame

Greninja and Sonic wouldnt be that hard MU but I do believe Mewtwos MU would be harder. met really good mewtwo MUs in friendlies but its hard to combo him for his lightweight but he can kill you pretty easy due your lightweight and his setups for the kills and range

 

[blackghost]

some of you guys may already know about this but:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG4iyH1Y4hY
just be aware when combing a game and watch stay nice and clean on the combo or game and watch gets a free vertical gimp.

 

[bc1910]

I think her bad MUs are

I think Greninja is her worst MU. He easily forces the approach by standing under BC and firing shurikens (at any range he wants because he's so short), can escape her combos just by pressing side B at the right time, has too much mobility to lock down and his recovery isn't vulnerable to Witch Time. Greninja himself isn't that vulnerable to Witch Time either since he can fight Bayo at a distance. Damage output is good enough. Basically repeating what Smog Frog said here. Greninja is Bayo's most natural counter.

Luigi might sound strange, but he's basically a CQC monster who isn't hugely afraid of Witch Time due to his reliance on grab. This allows him to abuse Bayo's suspect frame data in a way that other characters should be able to but can't. Fireballs force the approach from just inside BC's range, and he can stand there and throw them. His recovery is quite easy to neuter with Witch Time though. This might sound like a strange one but it feels tough.

Sonic can plough through a lot of stuff just by using Spin Dash. Bayo does really well once he's in the air though. And Witch Time can be used on reaction to Spin Dash and is generally safe if you whiff. His recovery, like Greninja's, is not vulnerable to Witch Time. Sonic's a weird one. It doesn't feel good though.

can force the approach because Shadow Ball is amazing and again he's hard to edgeguard. Whether this is actually a bad MU I don't know, because Mewtwo dies really early to Bayo's combos. He's easy to combo due to being big and light, but not that floaty.

and are both difficult, they may be slightly losing MUs, but both are very doable and I feel Luigi is worse. Both take a lot of Witch Time-able risks up close (even Sheik's legendary Fair is not safe) and they don't have Luigi's damage output from grab. I feel their damage output is a bit low to deal with Bayo in general, actually. Both have recoveries somewhat vulnerable to Witch Time.

I actually find fairly easy because everything revolves around physical moves and not grabs, making him very vulnerable to Witch Time. It's like the opposite of fighting Luigi. Be careful if he baits Witch Time though; Usmash kills dumb early. Witch Twist OoS can punish a surprising amount of stuff if your reactions are fast enough.

feels really good as well. BC shuts down her short hop game, we can force an approach and we can match her in damage output and kill potential. I think she's our best top tier MU.

 

[Father.]

Some notes and opinions I have on the sheik MU:

the sheik that I played against doesn't really approach very often, but dtilt arts and needles do about the same damage so it's more of a guessing game with shield for us. If you're good enough at predicting his needles you can force sheiks approach.

dtilt, nair, and sometimes bair will be your best friends. BUT bayonetta has a lot of mixups EX: ftilt, DA, ABK, dABK, Witch Time, and grab. Bayonetta has at least somewhat a weakness to shield but at low percents you can manage an upthrow upB and do some good damage. If they cant SDI out of upB you can get a dtilt at 0 and kill them (fair1 -> dABK -> dABK -> upB -> jump upB -> upair) and most of her combo game works fairly well on sheik.

Sheik is difficult to edgeguard as most of the time if the sheik does BF early enough you cant get there in time to Witch time it but you can punish its endlag is you sideB out there and do a full fair or maybe a combo percent dependent. It's very hard to punish her upB with witch time when shes recovering to ledge but IDK much about that situation. You can force sheik to recover low and get a dtilt on her two frame which can lead into kill combos (dtilt -> fair1 -> ABK -> ABK -> bair) at higher percents. its possible to dair her two frame as well and you can ABK -> upB -> jump upB after wards to recover whilst not hit sheik. Sheik can edgeguard us fairly well as well with nair and fullhop needles to bouncing fish, so make sure to mix up your recovery (when you sideB) as much as possible. Bayonetta can be gimped if you get her in a bad situation offstage without her second jump.

I think sheik wins slightly because she has safer tools and a faster dash speed and gets more off of grabs and at high percents needles become better than the dtilt bullet arts, as well as the nair bullet arts(which does like 2% at most) because of the needles knockback growth. If sheik SDIs and DIs perfectly our combo game becomes much less potent. Both characters can edgeguard the other fairly similarly (two frames). Overall a winnable matchup from both sides which I feel is very dependent on a bayonettas capitalization of edgeguards which can take stocks early off of winning neutral much less than sheik has to to take a stock as her kill potential is weak.

ALSO: when sheik dthrows at high % you you have a lot of options so dont airdodge too often. You can jump, ABK, upB, dABK, dair, Witch Time, and even hold up air/nair

Just my thoughts, thanks for reading!

 

[blackghost]

Some notes and opinions I have on the sheik MU:

the sheik that I played against doesn't really approach very often, but dtilt arts and needles do about the same damage so it's more of a guessing game with shield for us. If you're good enough at predicting his needles you can force sheiks approach.

dtilt, nair, and sometimes bair will be your best friends. BUT bayonetta has a lot of mixups EX: ftilt, DA, ABK, dABK, Witch Time, and grab. Bayonetta has at least somewhat a weakness to shield but at low percents you can manage an upthrow upB and do some good damage. If they cant SDI out of upB you can get a dtilt at 0 and kill them (fair1 -> dABK -> dABK -> upB -> jump upB -> upair) and most of her combo game works fairly well on sheik.

Sheik is difficult to edgeguard as most of the time if the sheik does BF early enough you cant get there in time to Witch time it but you can punish its endlag is you sideB out there and do a full fair or maybe a combo percent dependent. It's very hard to punish her upB with witch time when shes recovering to ledge but IDK much about that situation. You can force sheik to recover low and get a dtilt on her two frame which can lead into kill combos (dtilt -> fair1 -> ABK -> ABK -> bair) at higher percents. its possible to dair her two frame as well and you can ABK -> upB -> jump upB after wards to recover whilst not hit sheik. Sheik can edgeguard us fairly well as well with nair and fullhop needles to bouncing fish, so make sure to mix up your recovery (when you sideB) as much as possible. Bayonetta can be gimped if you get her in a bad situation offstage without her second jump.

I think sheik wins slightly because she has safer tools and a faster dash speed and gets more off of grabs and at high percents needles become better than the dtilt bullet arts, as well as the nair bullet arts(which does like 2% at most) because of the needles knockback growth. If sheik SDIs and DIs perfectly our combo game becomes much less potent. Both characters can edgeguard the other fairly similarly (two frames). Overall a winnable matchup from both sides which I feel is very dependent on a bayonettas capitalization of edgeguards which can take stocks early off of winning neutral much less than sheik has to to take a stock as her kill potential is weak.

ALSO: when sheik dthrows at high % you you have a lot of options so dont airdodge too often. You can jump, ABK, upB, dABK, dair, Witch Time, and even hold up air/nair

Just my thoughts, thanks for reading!

also just to add on shieks bouncing fish is a great move to learn to get batwithin off on reaction. if you can get that done to a scence not sure how shiek is going to ever kill you. and just to be clear i'm refering to the air ddge batwithin not the witch time whiff.

 

[Ceph]

Some excellent insight from everyone! I'm prolly one of the least reliable sources for matchups here (because I only play casually) but I have trouble with Fox & Cloud the most due to their frame data and overall speed. Both are easy to gimp, but their speed seems to make up for it, at least imo. Cloud's disjoints are a pain, too.

 

[Father.]

fox and cloud are pretty susceptible to witchtime on their recoveries and in general because since they doesnt get much off of grab fox players will often just spam safe attacks and cloud players will mostly use AC dair and charge limit and you can use BC and Witch time to negate both. Hope that helps.

 

[Mothman]

I think her bad MUs are

I think Greninja is her worst MU. He easily forces the approach by standing under BC and firing shurikens (at any range he wants because he's so short), can escape her combos just by pressing side B at the right time, has too much mobility to lock down and his recovery isn't vulnerable to Witch Time. Greninja himself isn't that vulnerable to Witch Time either since he can fight Bayo at a distance. Damage output is good enough. Basically repeating what Smog Frog said here. Greninja is Bayo's most natural counter.

Luigi might sound strange, but he's basically a CQC monster who isn't hugely afraid of Witch Time due to his reliance on grab. This allows him to abuse Bayo's suspect frame data in a way that other characters should be able to but can't. Fireballs force the approach from just inside BC's range, and he can stand there and throw them. His recovery is quite easy to neuter with Witch Time though. This might sound like a strange one but it feels tough.

Sonic can plough through a lot of stuff just by using Spin Dash. Bayo does really well once he's in the air though. And Witch Time can be used on reaction to Spin Dash and is generally safe if you whiff. His recovery, like Greninja's, is not vulnerable to Witch Time. Sonic's a weird one. It doesn't feel good though.

can force the approach because Shadow Ball is amazing and again he's hard to edgeguard. Whether this is actually a bad MU I don't know, because Mewtwo dies really early to Bayo's combos. He's easy to combo due to being big and light, but not that floaty.

and are both difficult, they may be slightly losing MUs, but both are very doable and I feel Luigi is worse. Both take a lot of Witch Time-able risks up close (even Sheik's legendary Fair is not safe) and they don't have Luigi's damage output from grab. I feel their damage output is a bit low to deal with Bayo in general, actually. Both have recoveries somewhat vulnerable to Witch Time.

I actually find fairly easy because everything revolves around physical moves and not grabs, making him very vulnerable to Witch Time. It's like the opposite of fighting Luigi. Be careful if he baits Witch Time though; Usmash kills dumb early. Witch Twist OoS can punish a surprising amount of stuff if your reactions are fast enough.

feels really good as well. BC shuts down her short hop game, we can force an approach and we can match her in damage output and kill potential. I think she's our best top tier MU.

I kinda disagree with sonic being a bad match up, his spin attacks can be punishable. Bayonetta shouldn't have to approach in this much up, you can bait out sonic's attacks, and his up B occasionally leaves him vulnerable to her down smash off stage. There was a video someone posted somewhere on the meta game discussion detailing what parts of sonic's spin dash are punishable during witch time.

I agree that mario's match up can be difficult, mario's reverse cape can be dangerous to deal with off stage as he can reflect any after burner kicks to go the opposite direction. Mario's water thing can also send bayo off stage if she attempts to use bullet climax near the edge. Mario also has a lot of good arial options and can also easily trap Bayo in the up a combo thing.

As for Sheik, I'd say it's about even, though depending on the stage Id say Bayo has the better kill options and can punish Sheik a lot harder.

Fox feels easy as well, and my favourite thing is when I land a down smash off stage right when theyre about to side b back on. I have yet to face a good fox as Bayo though. But the match up feels a lot more doable then when I use Olimar who has a hard time with him.

Another match up I wana talk about is Corrin, it felt very difficult at first but Bayonetta has a lot of good tools for dealing with them. Bayonetta's bullet climax has also amazing gimping ability in this match up if you catch Corrin far enough off stage. Bullet climax also comes in handy when dealing with his projectiles , and her heel slide go under some of his smash attacks. She doesn't have to approach at all for this match up.

 

[xIvan321]

The Mega Man match up might be worth exploring due to projectiles in general. I could almost guarantee this could be a bad match up especially if of course the Mega Man is actually good at the character, since that always tends to be rare.

But in my full perspective having put a lot of time in Bayonetta and playing the match up from both angles, the first thing to notice is Mega Man's metal blade, air shooter, and pellets stop her side b. It can only be used sparingly and partly due to the lack of priority it has. In general Witch Time becomes less effective at stopping him just for revolving around projectiles, and if you witch time his up smash, there's a likely chance smashes will only clank with his instead of taking damage. (sometimes you will receive damage yourself for attempting to punish.) And lastly, Mega Man has no recovery you can cheese with witch time. Just in general, Mega Man would be able to wall you out, then off stage he can just dair the recovery having such wide range, and it should work better against Bayonetta than a lot of other MUs.

And Mega Man can approach with a super glide toss metal blade if he does need to. The tactic might be trickier to deal with since its harder to defend ourselves against a metal blade.

My best advice would be to really know the match up, there are a few tricks or quirks in the match up you can always take full advantage of such as witch timing at will. You can do this on Mega Man's leaf shield (worn) and Crash Bomber up close. (yes this means you can do this on Toon Link's bomb if you hold it, or if Pikmin are stuck on you.) Up air combos from Mega Man can get predictable if not used sparingly, and you could probably mash shield to use bat-within. On landing you should be able to bat-within retreating pellets as well.

Overall, we may not have to worry about it too much when considering Mega Man is hardly used and if he is, its rare that he will be any good. Do worry a bit if this isn't the case and respect him a little bit, but again this is from my view. I urge anyone here to try the match up themselves and give me some feedback so we can progress.

 

[blackghost]

But in my full perspective having put a lot of time in Bayonetta and playing the match up from both angles, the first thing to notice is Mega Man's metal blade, air shooter, and pellets stop her side b. It can only be used sparingly and partly due to the lack of priority it has. In general Witch Time becomes less effective at stopping him just for revolving around projectiles, and if you witch time his up smash, there's a likely chance smashes will only clank with his instead of taking damage. (sometimes you will receive damage yourself for attempting to punish.) And lastly, Mega Man has no recovery you can cheese with witch time. Just in general, Mega Man would be able to wall you out, then off stage he can just dair the recovery having such wide range, and it should work better against Bayonetta than a lot of other MUs.

tryusing nair or dair on his recovery instead. his recovery makes dair even safer.
once you get in on megaman what does he do to get you away? i dont think there is much he could do.

 

[xIvan321]

tryusing nair or dair on his recovery instead. his recovery makes dair even safer.
once you get in on megaman what does he do to get you away? i dont think there is much he could do.

Dair would actually be hard to use since he can always spring back up. (but aside from that, I'd guess it can work sometimes.) Aside from that its possible for him to avoid getting dair'd and land on stage without any lag, and most mega man's hold their jump before their recovery anyways giving them a lot more chances to return. They will only use their jump before up b when they are certain to return just to ledge snap properly.

And options to get away are actually simple. He can nair, bair, sdi, up b, etc. due to the lack of priority of her moves and technically since z-dropping is 1 frame, meaning if he holds a metal blade, its actually his best get out of jail free card move. Mega Man would actually not have that bad of a time getting out against Bayonetta compared to other opponents, but its as I said, this match up needs to be explored at some point, and I'd be willing to help with that whenever its on the table since I do play both Bayonetta and Mega Man.

 

[Father.]

Just a note of info, Witch Time does work on projectiles at close range. IDK about metal blade or specific ranges but this should all be tested.

 

[Amiracle]

Ness is a brutal match up imo. My bullets just go over him, I have no real approach and he just spams PK fire whenever I heel slide or even try to approach. His fair beats all of my aerial options and if I mess up a single heel slide I just get backthrowed and die super early.

He's extremely hard to combo as well and his nair seems to beat everything I have. I tried training extensively against a lvl 9 ness NPC and it is still super hard. I have to really land a lot of WT's or I'm out of luck.

I find if I can get him off the edge I can at least get a slight advantage but its challenging

 

[blackghost]

Dair would actually be hard to use since he can always spring back up. (but aside from that, I'd guess it can work sometimes.) Aside from that its possible for him to avoid getting dair'd and land on stage without any lag, and most mega man's hold their jump before their recovery anyways giving them a lot more chances to return. They will only use their jump before up b when they are certain to return just to ledge snap properly.

yeah i was wrong its safer to just nair off stage. push him away from the stage his recovery is urely vertical. once the range of WT slowdown on projectles is known, could you WT on reaction to the sticky bombs?

 

[xIvan321]

yeah i was wrong its safer to just nair off stage. push him away from the stage his recovery is urely vertical. once the range of WT slowdown on projectles is known, could you WT on reaction to the sticky bombs?

Nair is definitely better. Held u-air too due to the range but careful, he can hit you back if he knows the MU. Down smash may work, but its relying heavily if Mega Man screws up in recovering like under shooting his recovery and using his held jump near the ledge since double jumps don't ledge snap.

Its possible to Witch Time the Crash Bomber on reaction. There is a timing and a visual cue that should help, and you have many opportunities to take advantage of this because Crash Bomber was designed to set up kills and interesting combos.

If under 40% for Mega Man he can shield cancel his ground moves interacting with Crash Bomber for combos taking about 1% recoil for him. After that, he may still rely on the same tactic again only this time he's more than likely to go behind you in order to follow up. There's always the option to attempt to brake your shield so always look out for that as well. They may go for that but if you can get in their face they may start to roll which brings me to...

Careful choices while playing hot potato with the CB can potentially pin a Mega Man down here especially if they like to roll. Rolling is something Mega Man players shouldn't do anyways, but it hasn't stopped a lot of them before since Crash Bomber does not care whether you're invincible, intangible, active, etc. This is where you may be able to Witch Time the most here.

 

[pikazz]

met some really great players on Beast with Bayonetta and will give 3 MUs I fought!

first of all:
I honesty believe its 50/50 but its too early to say.
our Bullet Art DO activate his Down B One Hit Parry, meaning our BU can activate it and him a free punish if he holds it longer from any of our attacks or from Teammate. due this, he have hard time to land with our Extended UAir/NAir and his predictable Recovery can give us WT at the ledge or easy gimp.

yet, just as us he has really easy time to turn around it. one Light UTilt/DTilt to True Shoyruken will kill us really early together that without an hard read on WT or Any Smash Attacks, he will be able to survive to 200% if he DIs out from every combos.
the mindgame is the key

second:
dont ever get grabbed by Bowser, ever!!
once grabbed, you will get a heavy damage punish or be killed by Koo-pah at 80-90%
he is really fast due his tank so our DTilt doesnt really do much so we need to react directly when he start dashing at distant.
his "Tough Body" ability makes him not flinch by light "Bullet Climax", but it will slow him down if we charge it first and rapid fire. just be prepared on that.

the good thing we have against him is his size, making it easier to land our combos on him once he is exposed from the shield.
he cant land either, as he will either airdodge, DAir, DownB or "SideB near the ground". so once he is in the air, keep it that way with either UAir on Airdodge lock or WT on DAir and DownB. just be prepared that the hitboxes WILL be active once he lands too, so shield if you can move and he lands for safety.
Patient game and Juggling is the key

third:
Yoshi have his egg as an approach and long range projectile with his eggs. if he approaches, answer that with either shield or WT if he is too close for the egg.
B-Reverse Egg Lay can be scary but just be patient, if he is happy with that, adapt with it with dABK or a punish with Bullet Climax in right angle!

Yoshi can have a hard time against you when you have removed his Eggs and Tounge. but dont forget that his Second Jump is One Frame Heavy Armor, so he can escape our combos when it isnt true and can attack you on DJ, so bait it either out or be prepare to counter it. Many of Yoshis Long Lasting Move will Clang your smash attack or Hit you in return!
my opinion for this MU feels to our Favor by all the Yoshis I met at Beast!

Ness is a brutal match up imo. My bullets just go over him, I have no real approach and he just spams PK fire whenever I heel slide or even try to approach. His fair beats all of my aerial options and if I mess up a single heel slide I just get backthrowed and die super early.

He's extremely hard to combo as well and his nair seems to beat everything I have. I tried training extensively against a lvl 9 ness NPC and it is still super hard. I have to really land a lot of WT's or I'm out of luck.

I find if I can get him off the edge I can at least get a slight advantage but its challenging

Heel Slide are not an approach tool, its a punishing move like on a Whiff Grab or Whiff attack from a pretty distant. its better to use ABK in air if he short hop or bait out an PK Fire and do dABK during the endlag! our DTilt BA has longer range his PK Fire so you can use it to give him free % of his lag!
dont forget that WT will activate at close range on PK Fire and even if you got hit during it due 4 Frames rehit on PK Fire and he tries to punish you!

the only problem is that he is small and our combo window is low due his size, but once he stops approaches with dash and PK Fire, he will short hop and thats how you get him with Bullet Climax. just answer his PK Fire with dABK and keep him airborn!

Ness doesnt really have much against Bayonetta and I feel Bayonetta have the MU in her favor

 

[Megamang]

Salem was having trouble with the MU, and it makes sense in theory why bayo would struggle. After all, a throw which either deals heavy damage or works as a kill is a key tool vs Bayo, and Ness has both. Make sure you know how to SDI PKFire so you hit the ground and powershield... Perhaps you can also mash airdodge to trigger BW, I haven't labbed it out, I just know the universal option.

Another universal option is going after Ness to tank a hit of PKT2 to kill him offstage. This can work in a variety of ways. If he triggers it too close, you can simply absorb the thunder itself and take minimal damage while Ness plunges to his death. If it is far away, you can eat the PKT2 right in the beginning to shorten its travel distance and gimp him. Just make sure you are ready to tech the ledge (its pretty easy with the huge hitlag) and that he isn't going to make it back regardless.

A bayo specific option is to activate Witch Time when PKT2 is about to hit you. I only know this will work initially, I have not worked much with negating the hitbox of PKT2 after he has been slowed so I will get back to this thread when I figure out the best way to stop him once WT has been activated.

I personally like playing with my back to him and spacing with bair, and punishing any spacing attempts or commitments with Divekick.

 

[SiriusPika]

Having trouble with the Corrin matchup and approaching him. Seems to just keep walling me out with neutral b and can throw out his smashes which have such long range and little lag that I can't punish. Any advice?

 

[xIvan321]

From what I do know is if you can stay out of Ness' range pretty well, you can beat Ness too. He can really struggle against camping/zoning characters, but unfortunately Bayonetta's bullet arts will only be most effective if you counter pick to Lylant which is where Ness will get beaten easily if you play your cards right of course.

Other than that, I do still see us potentially winning the ground and getting less punished for mistakes like running into PSI Fire thanks to bat within. I wonder how PSI Rocket (recovery) interacts with bat-within since I am aware that if you allow yourself to get hit by Ness' recovery, and tech it, you actually gimp his recovery.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Who do you find harder against Bayonetta? Ike or Cloud?

Ike hits harder, kills sooner, and has grab followups, which is Bayonetta's kryptonite. He also has a moderately superior recovery, despite being exploitable by Witch Time.

Cloud has a projectile, faster attacks, and a Uair which hits fast and protects him from above.

 

[BlackCephie]

Who do you find harder against Bayonetta? Ike or Cloud?

Ike hits harder, kills sooner, and has grab followups, which is Bayonetta's kryptonite. He also has a moderately superior recovery, despite being exploitable by Witch Time.

Cloud has a projectile, faster attacks, and a Uair which hits fast and protects him from above.

Honestly I think a good Ike is way harder than Cloud. Part of that is because Ike has super armor on his Up b, so even i you catch his up b with witch time its hard to actually kill him. A continuous uair may work but I havnt tested it yet. Other than that, he has some really great tools to stuff her attacks in the air, and can kill her way fast. Cloud is really easy to beat after getting experience in the match up and his up b alone makes him pretty susceptible.

 

[Megamang]

I find cloud is very Witch Timeable. He often relies on the fact that even if you know he is gonna fair, dair or nair, there is no way to challenge it. Bayonetta can actually beat his dair with her utilt, which is silly but hey I'll take it. While both have a disjoint, Cloud not having a disjointed poke as solid as Ike's dtilt hurts. Ike's dtilt will chop up our dtilt due to its disjoint, and confirms into aerials for a good chunk of damage. Ike has a slightly deadlier jab and much deadlier grab, and I wouldn't be surprised if jab mixups prove to work great on bayo due to her horribly slow jab. Though if she predicts it she can landing hit dair like pika can, or Witch Twist, but I see Ike as one of the best characters to punish this with his disjointed and hugely powerful uair.

In general having confirms is great against bayo, and Ike's are a better here. Sure cloud can confirm from dairs, but if you don't witch time his autocanceled bair (EDIT: meant Dair here, bair is hella fast but Dair is pretty telegraphed)then you're either moving slowly or he spaced it such that you just ran into it more than him guiding it into you.

There are way more good clouds than ikes, so I don't have much ike MU experience, but I really feel Ike is scarier to bayo than cloud. Both should be gimped off stage if they get a bad angle, so here there isn't much of a difference between bad and horrible recoveries. That said, Ike wins here too so it being functionally even is a boon for cloud who I still fear less.

 

[pikazz]

I dont really have the MU knowledge for both good Ikes and Clouds.

but all I know is that they are extremely gimpable:
if ike does UpB near ledge you can Witch Time the sword and do a DownSmash when he will rise up!
if Ike does SideB you can jump after him and trigger Bat Within (before airdodge) so his "hit animation" will activate and cancle his momentum

Clouds UpB gimp is similiar to Ikes except Cloud follows the sword, so you need to react faster (if he chooses to recover low without Limitbreak)

 

[Megamang]

Worth mentioning if you go up against either character, they really like Battlefield. Cloud because it might as well be Cloudfield, and Ike for his weight advantage, the way he kills being less hampered by the giant blastzones than us, and the platforms providing very valuable mixup potential on his recovery. Ban that ish.

 

[pikazz]

Worth mentioning if you go up against either character, they really like Battlefield. Cloud because it might as well be Cloudfield, and Ike for his weight advantage, the way he kills being less hampered by the giant blastzones than us, and the platforms providing very valuable mixup potential on his recovery. Ban that ish.

I believe Battlefield actually benefit Bayonetta more: on top floor, you can true combo dABK -> dABK -> (Fair1 if DI away ->) Witch Twist and it will kill them at 20% on Witch Twist while on the lower platforms you need true combo DJ Witch Twist for the kill

same thing if they are trying to do UpAir Strings as Bayonetta love (short) hopping people

 

[Megamang]

I think maybe everyone is too tunnel vision'd on the death combos. Why is ike standing on the top platform, and why can't he SDI?

 

[pikazz]

I think maybe everyone is too tunnel vision'd on the death combos. Why is ike standing on the top platform, and why can't he SDI?

nah, its more of a trap on top floor. if you SDI out of Witch Twist, you will die earlier on top floor due how knockbacks works, so its better to either not to be on top floor or that if you are on top floor that Witch Twist will not carry you too high. its similiar how to SDI out of ZSS UpB that can actually kills you earlier on same level

but getting the opponent on top floor is the hardest part and I cant explain how to do so, eitherby attacking them so they tumble on top floor and have a tech chase with dABK.

but its really down to references on stage striking, as some do like to have platforms or not and we can use the platforms as our upperhand, but it comes down to if the opponent is ready for that