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Data Bayonetta Match-Up Thread!

Ridel

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I don't think we have a MU thread so I think it would be good to start discussing certain MU's right about now. Like other threads of this nature we will discus one character on a weekly to bi-weekly basis.

So for this week I think we should discus a top tier MU to start. I'l leave a strawpoll below and we'll discus the most voted one tomorrow or Tuesday depending on the amount of votes we get.

http://strawpoll.me/6752237

:4sheik:
:rosalina:
:4zss:
 

Tobi_Whatever

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Where is the "way too early" option?
Everything at this point would just be theory-craft on a sub week old character.
Wait a month or two, wait for some tourneys, wait for some people actually using her combos in a tourney.
 

Lazlo_Bananas

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Yea...it's a bit too early. Especially with all the different ways people can play her, we don't know which options are really optimal yet in a tourney setting. When is the next major where she'll be legal?
 

Ridel

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Alright I actually did originally have a "?" at the end cause I wasn't sure if it was too early. Should we keep this thread around until then or just make another one at the appropriate time?
 
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Lazlo_Bananas

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Oh, I do think she has a positive matchup versus Rosalina though. I don't know how Witch time works against her and luma though.
 

Lazlo_Bananas

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Alright I actually did originally have a "?" at the end cause I wasn't sure if it was too early. Should we keep this thread around until then or just make another one at the appropriate time?
A mod may come in with a suggestion to where this can go maybe?
 

Theosmeo

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I think Neutral B is really effective against sheik and ZSS when used in moderation because their neutral relies on aerials, be careful of dash grabs though
 

Mothman

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yeah def a bit early, I don't think I've even faced a luma to begin with though I have to say I've had a good results against zss and sheik but still to early to tell if that was inexperience of the bayonetta match up on my opponent's part, or if shes actually effective against
 

Father.

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I played a lot of Bayonetta Sheik with my friend (who's very good) the other day and I have some knowledge and opinions on the matchup. When and where will we be discussing it?
 

pikazz

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it is a bit too early, but it is actually great to start talking about the MU now and let the meta grow with it.
everything changes and grows and if our MU grows, it grows for the better or it will shrink for the worse

I have met sheiks both on smashladder and FG so I will share my personal opinion and I personally think Bayonetta is a really good against her due how Sheiks loves to be rush down.
Sheik doesnt have lot off killpower (except combos that carries you out to the deathzone) and have fast and low power moves, this however is perfect for witch time as one single jab on fresh Witch Time will give them 2+ seconds slow time.
together that they "are light but fastfalling", our combos works at perfect kill% as they have easier time to combos

the other 2 however: I havent met a single good ZSS yet and only one Rosalina so I have too little information of those 2
 

Sonicninja115

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Well, this thread has been stickies, so I guess it's go.

Should we discuss general aspects of MU's and stuff, and wait a bit to do really in-depth stuff?

For example, should we discuss things like how to punish Shieks BF, and best ways to edge-guard her. And then in a couple of months go in-depth with analyisis and rank the MU's.
 

The Puffer

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Can BF be countered with Witch Time? That would be veeeeeeery useful for punishing
 

The Puffer

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bounching fish can be countered! did it twice, however, one of the time did make him "miss me and doesnt bounche" while the other one did bounche
So....she can still bounce randomly or did you do something to make her???
 

ChikoLad

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Oh, I do think she has a positive matchup versus Rosalina though. I don't know how Witch time works against her and luma though.
I'd have to highly disagree with that so far.

-It is so, so easy for Rosalina to DI away from almost all of Bayonetta's combos because of how light she is, I basically never get hit by them beyond the first or second hit. Made even worse by Luma, because if Bayonetta catches Luma in the combo too, it adds hit lag frames that effect Bayonetta and Luma, but not Rosalina, giving Rosalina even more time to just float away. So that's Bayo's biggest strength not getting to shine. By contrast, Rosalina with Luma has virtually unlimited custom combo options in the hands of worthy player.

-Bayonetta has a very bad approach game, Rosalina has both an exceptional zoning game and approach game. So her biggest weakness is capitalised on too.

-Rosalina has way more reliable KO options and set ups, early ones too.

-All of Bayonetta's Smash Attacks are clanked by Rosalina's multi-hit moves (rapid jab and F-air), and EVERYTHING Luma can throw out. The latter is because Luma is sort of considered an "item" whenever he attacks, and items clank with Wicked Weaves. If you're curious to look more into this, another example of "Luma attacks = item attack" is to attack a Ghastly in Smash Run in the 3DS version with Luma - Ghastly is normally only damaged by items and projectiles, but all of Luma's attacks damage and launch Ghastly as if Ghastly were a normal enemy being hit by normal attacks. This essentially makes Luma the ulitmate counter to Bayonetta's Smash Attacks and Luma can easily counter them by using an attack that would hit Bayonetta mid-animation.



-As expected, Rosalina can still severely outrange Bayonetta, especially with Luma disjoints.

-Rosalina excels at punishing opponents, especially if Luma is around. Bayonetta is one of the most punishable characters in the game when looking at a lot of her attacks and how their frame data is. She has a few safe ones but they're not much of a threat anyway, especially when Bayonetta can't approach well.

-Rosalina & Luma are effected separately by Witch Time. And if Luma is Witch Time'd during Luma Shot, Witch Time treats him like a projectile, not a character, and he will whiz by Bayonetta anyway. Bayonetta will not be harmed by Luma Shot but this gives time for Luma to counter or Rosalina to approach, as Bayonetta finishes the animation for Witch Time.

I may be forgetting some details but overall, Rosalina is probably one of the worst match-ups for Bayonetta. Too much of her normally good tools, are just heavily gimped or not viable at all against Rosalina.

In general, I think the bad MUs Bayonetta seems to have so far are:

:rosalina::4sonic::4kirby::4metaknight::4pikachu:

Maybe :4sheik::4zss: too but I think she has more of a chance there, not too sure though.

She does very well against lots of the cast though. However, a lot of these characters aren't very viable to begin with.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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Shoot luma until it's dead, then attack. Wall off approaches with nAir.
 

ChikoLad

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Shoot luma until it's dead, then attack. Wall off approaches with nAir.
If you're talking about neutral B, that doesn't work. Rosalina crouch walks which also lowers Luma's position, and has a special that absorbs it. Rosalina can even Down-Tilt from this and punish you for trying. The move leaves Bayonetta wide open too, due to it's recovery frames.

If you're talking about the "holding A after an attack" mechanic, that's pitiful damage at a time, especially against such a small target like Luma. And once again, terrible recovery frames, not worth doing because it's gonna result in you taking way more damage than you're dishing out, because it doesn't cause flinching. The spinning aerial versions are safer but are so inaccurate even against big targets that it's not worth spamming.

N-air won't wall off approaches. Rosalina alone can outrange it with a multitude of moves, even more so with Luma. Star Bits is also perfect for stopping it.

This is all assuming Luma is by Rosalina's side too. When he's de-tethered, Rosalina has even more options.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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If you're talking about neutral B, that doesn't work. Rosalina crouch walks which also lowers Luma's position, and has a special that absorbs it. Rosalina can even Down-Tilt from this and punish you for trying. The move leaves Bayonetta wide open too, due to it's recovery frames.

If you're talking about the "holding A after an attack" mechanic, that's pitiful damage at a time, especially against such a small target like Luma. And once again, terrible recovery frames, not worth doing because it's gonna result in you taking way more damage than you're dishing out, because it doesn't cause flinching. The spinning aerial versions are safer but are so inaccurate even against big targets that it's not worth spamming.

N-air won't wall off approaches. Rosalina alone can outrange it with a multitude of moves, even more so with Luma. Star Bits is also perfect for stopping it.

This is all assuming Luma is by Rosalina's side too. When he's de-tethered, Rosalina has even more options.
What about dTilt bullet arts? Deals 10% and I am pretty sure you can stop fast enough considering Rosas run and airspeed.
 

Peppa

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If we do a ZSS MU I will try to give some insight as an ex-ZSS main. I only played her because I thought Bayo would never be out.
 

ChikoLad

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What about dTilt bullet arts? Deals 10% and I am pretty sure you can stop fast enough considering Rosas run and airspeed.
Simple jump gets you over it, and you can see a D-air coming from a mile away, especially in neutral.

Rosalina's run and air movement speed is actually above average too, and she has the best air acceleration in the game (tied with Peach and Palutena), so no problems approaching. Luma D-air can also get you from here.

The point is that Rosalina just shoots down a lot of Bayonetta's normal strengths, without question. You may find and theory craft work arounds to survive a bit better but that's how it is in every bad MU for the disadvantaged character, and Rosalina is infamous for "crippling characters strengths to the point where they have to play in a really uncomfortable and abnormal manner", so this is kind of the position a Rosalina main would want you in. Bayonetta won't be a top-tier for being shot down so hard by a top tier. You'll need a character who doesn't get shot down so obnoxiously hard by Rosalina and can at least somewhat capitalise on their normal strengths.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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Simple jump gets you over it, and you can see a D-air coming from a mile away, especially in neutral.

Rosalina's run and air movement speed is actually above average too, and she has the best air acceleration in the game (tied with Peach and Palutena), so no problems approaching. Luma D-air can also get you from here.

The point is that Rosalina just shoots down a lot of Bayonetta's normal strengths, without question. You may find and theory craft work arounds to survive a bit better but that's how it is in every bad MU for the disadvantaged character, and Rosalina is infamous for "crippling characters strengths to the point where they have to play in a really uncomfortable and abnormal manner", so this is kind of the position a Rosalina main would want you in. Bayonetta won't be a top-tier for being shot down so hard by a top tier. You'll need a character who doesn't get shot down so obnoxiously hard by Rosalina and can at least somewhat capitalise on their normal strengths.
Hmmm. What about facekick? Does Rosa have a hitbox to prevent us from hitting Luma?
 

ChikoLad

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Hmmm. What about facekick? Does Rosa have a hitbox to prevent us from hitting Luma?
Rosalina's shield can protect Luma if Luma is physically inside the shield's area of effect. So she can protect him that way, if that's what you mean. And depending on how Luma is spaced, he can be put inside of Rosalina's attack hitboxes. That's getting into the real nitty gritty though.

Luma also just has obnoxiously good priority on his moves in general so that's another option.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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Rosalina's shield can protect Luma if Luma is physically inside the shield's area of effect. So she can protect him that way, if that's what you mean. And depending on how Luma is spaced, he can be put inside of Rosalina's attack hitboxes. That's getting into the real nitty gritty though.

Luma also just has obnoxiously good priority on his moves in general so that's another option.
The latter is what I feared. ZSS destroys Rosa because of her bAir. Can't Bayo do the same? Her bAir is pretty similar.
 

ChikoLad

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The latter is what I feared. ZSS destroys Rosa because of her bAir. Can't Bayo do the same? Her bAir is pretty similar.
I would say "ZSS destroys Rosalina" is a huge exaggeration, I don't even find the MU as bad as people claim it is (especially now that ZSS had her Up-B nerfed a bit). Sometimes I feel at an advantage. But that's neither here nor there. I play differently to most Rosalina players, who are just pure defense based.

Bayonetta's B-air is one of her better tools in neutral but like I said, Bayonetta can't approach well to begin with. That B-air won't win the match.
 

pikazz

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I do think Rosalina is a bad MU for Bayonetta but not on the degree everyone saying its one sided.
sure she has Luma, but its really easy to actually get rid of her. one simple "Dash attack" if she is camping at the ledge will send luma flying even during shield.

if sheilding, our DBK will be safe on shield and it will also hit luma aswell when spaced, if Rosalina will OoS UAir during this while Luma is stunned, we can do easy one more DBK and knock her into the air and proceed the combo.

our heel slide is in theory good as it can "end" in 2 ways (holding B in the end or not), creating mindgames if the rosalina is "reaction sheildgrab" on UpKick or "holding shield to all the attacks is done" and grab rosalina instead
 
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ChikoLad

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I do think Rosalina is a bad MU for Bayonetta but not on the degree everyone saying its one sided.
sure she has Luma, but its really easy to actually get rid of her. one simple "Dash attack" if she is camping at the ledge will send luma flying even during shield.

if sheilding, our DBK will be safe on shield and it will also hit luma aswell when spaced, if Rosalina will OoS UAir during this while Luma is stunned, we can do easy one more DBK and knock her into the air and proceed the combo.

our heel slide is in theory good as it can "end" in 2 ways (holding B in the end or not), creating mindgames if the rosalina is "reaction sheildgrab" on UpKick or "holding shield to all the attacks is done" and grab rosalina instead
Well I didn't say it was one sided, it's too early to say that, but Rosalina evidently just shuts down a lot of Bayonetta's normal strengths.

Also:

-A good Rosalina won't have Luma hanging out near the edge unless it's for edge guarding when you're already off stage. This whole "really easy to get rid of Luma" is always only a theoretical thing, with any character. Luma is inherently delicate and easy to swat off-stage, it's all down to how well Rosalina PROTECTS Luma and doesn't allow you to get rid of him.
-Bayonetta's dash attack won't send Luma flying if Luma is within the AoE of Rosalina's shield.
-Due to the slow start and end to Bayonetta's Dash Attack, if Rosalina is on the edge, all she has to do is slip off when Bayonetta comes with it, double jump back, and B-air Bayonetta.
-I haven't seen the "DBK" abbreviation used before, though it sounds like the "downward side special" you can do. If that's what you mean, Rosalina is able to just dash under it, then jump, and hit you with U-air as you travel across, with or without Luma. And even if you were to hit her, it's very easy to DI away especially for Rosalina since she's a lightweight.
-Heel Slide isn't a good idea, a short hop D-air from even just Rosalina will stop it due to the disjoint it has.
 

ChikoLad

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we can easy toss the ball back and forward in that way "who will have the upperhand", everything do sound lot good on paper for both side, it needs to be tested
I agree. I think I'll leave it there too.

Most of the more important, definite, and obvious stuff was in my initial post so if people want to reference me just look at that one more than anything.
 

EmperorFabio

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I've been practicing the rosa mu since bayo was launched, with maybe the best brazilian rosa
..bayonetta is by far the worst rosa MU. Really.
EVETYTHING kills luma, even her throws.so shielding can not really save luma. Her side b can easily bypass the rosalina "wall" (Jab & Nair), she can downsmash rosa's up b incredible easy, if rosa goes to the air to try the up-air and miss it, bayonetta can do crazy death combos, and the list goes on
(btw, sry bad english)
 

ChikoLad

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EVETYTHING kills luma
Well you must not be fighting Rosalina's who are good at protecting Luma because I am winning matches without losing a Luma. One at most.

even her throws
I have not had this happen nor have I seen it yet. Plus, it's very hard for Bayonetta to grab Rosalina because her grab range is piss and Luma walls her out. And Luma can still attack while Rosalina is grabbed.

Her side b can easily bypass the rosalina "wall"(Jab & Nair)
Yeah, if the Rosalina is recklessly using just those two moves, but that's not how you properly play Rosalina. Plenty of moves like Star Bits and D-air stop this, N-air still serves to dodge it too.

she can downsmash rosa's up b incredible easy
No she can't. Rosalina can angle it to launch over it, I've been doing this all of the time. If recovering vertically (and she will never have a situation where she is doing this with Bayonetta still on-stage), all she has to do is use it a bit away from the ledge/weave, and she will avoid it, and can grab the ledge thereafter. She may even get a punish in due to the cool down of it.

if rosa goes to the air to try the up-air and miss it, bayonetta can do crazy death combos
Very unlikely scenario and even if she did miss, Rosalina is able to DI easily out of Bayonetta's combos (this has been tested and isn't exclusive to Rosalina either).
 
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David Viran

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Very unlikely scenario and even if she did miss, Rosalina is able to DI easily out of Bayonetta's combos (this has been tested and isn't exclusive to Rosalina either).
How can you say Rosa easily DIs out of the combo when he didn't even say what combo it was? Also tested by who, how, when, etc. There are a thousand misconceptions going around on what can be DIed and what can't and how things are DIed.
 

ChikoLad

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How can you say Rosa easily DIs out of the combo when he didn't even say what combo it was? Also tested by who, how, when, etc. There are a thousand misconceptions going around on what can be DIed and what can't and how things are DIed.
Because Rosalina can DI out of the vast majority of Bayonetta's combos to begin with, as can many other characters (and I have a good idea of what one he might mean, considering it's around the top of the stage he was talking about, it's probably something simple like an Up-B/Side-B chain attempt). You can only really get one or two hits off most of the time before she can DI out, and that's at low percents. All of the Bayonetta 0-to-deaths I've seen so far have not been proven to work across the whole cast even when they DI either, it's all been staged stuff, usually in training mode.

And like I said before, you also have to take Luma into account because if he's caught in the combo too, this causes extra hitlag towards Bayonetta and Luma, but not towards Rosalina, meaning she gets out really easily. This isn't a Bayonetta exclusive thing either, it's common thing with Rosalina.

Though considering the rest of his post, I don't put stock in the statement to begin with.

And I'm sure, as a Rosalina player, I would have experienced any crazy, guaranteed combos already if they existed, but I've been able to DI out of everything so far.
 

EmperorFabio

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i don't think the rosa was playing wrong, maybe the bayo you're fighting that is doing this
to stop bayo side b with star bits or dair you have to basicly read when its coming. If you miss the timing bayo can punish hard. As i say, everything kills luma, so rosa naturally will try to protect her often, get the grab in this mu is not that hard. fthrow and bthrow and even dthrow i think (not tested the last one) will hit luma and put him in hitstun. There's more, luma CAN'T save rosa in a grab, bayonetta strange pummel hits luma (lol).Even if not, its just grab and throw fast. Unfortunally for rosa, bayonetta combos links in her very easily due to her big hurtbox and height, its not like she can really DI away some combos. Most of them can caught by surprise too, its not that easy to DI, with all characters.
And the downsmash was just an exemple. Bayonetta is a nightmare for rosa offstage, she can cover all her options.
 
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David Viran

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Because Rosalina can DI out of the vast majority of Bayonetta's combos to begin with, as can many other characters (and I have a good idea of what one he might mean, considering it's around the top of the stage he was talking about, it's probably something simple like an Up-B/Side-B chain attempt). You can only really get one or two hits off most of the time before she can DI out, and that's at low percents. All of the Bayonetta 0-to-deaths I've seen so far have not been proven to work across the whole cast even when they DI either, it's all been staged stuff, usually in training mode.

And like I said before, you also have to take Luma into account because if he's caught in the combo too, this causes extra hitlag towards Bayonetta and Luma, but not towards Rosalina, meaning she gets out really easily. This isn't a Bayonetta exclusive thing either, it's common thing with Rosalina.

Though considering the rest of his post, I don't put stock in the statement to begin with.

And I'm sure, as a Rosalina player, I would have experienced any crazy, guaranteed combos already if they existed, but I've been able to DI out of everything so far.
You said before that he might not have faced a good Rosa player who knows what they're doing but isn't it also possible that you haven't faced a good bayo player that knows what they are doing?
 

ChikoLad

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i don't think the rosa was playing wrong, maybe the bayo you're fighting that is doing this
to stop bayo side b with star bits or dair you have to basicly read when its coming. If you miss the timing bayo can punish hard. As i say, everything kills luma, so rosa naturally will try to protect her often, get the grab in this mu is not that hard. fthrow and bthrow and even dthrow i think (not tested the last one) will hit luma and put him in hitstun. There's more, luma CAN'T save rosa in a grab, bayonetta strange pummel hits luma (lol).Even if not, its just grab and throw fast. Unfortunally for rosa, bayonetta combos links in her very easily due to her big hurtbox and height, its not like she can really DI away some combos. Most of them can caught by surprise too, its not that easy to DI, with all characters.
And the downsmash was just an exemple. Bayonetta is a nightmare for rosa offstage, she can cover all her options.
It's not hard at all to read when Bayo's Side B is coming because it's quite slow. And you don't get punished hard because again, DI.

Everything doesn't KO Luma because as I said I've been able to retain my Luma very easily. People literally say this about every character, because it's true, anything can theoretically chase Luma off-stage, but it's all about not letting him get hit to begin with and not letting him hang around the ledge.

Luma can hit Bayonetta in grab just like normal, I haven't had any problem doing this. "Just throw quickly" isn't an adequate answer against a good Rosalina player since reacting to grabs is something that's specifically practiced by Rosalina players.

Bayonetta combos don't link easily, Rosalina is so light that she often floats too far away especially with DI. This isn't even a question of the kind of players you play since her moves are the same either way. I'm always floating out of Side-B and Up-B.

Bayonetta isn't a nightmare for Rosalina off stage, and I haven't seen any proof of her "covering all of her options". Bayonetta goes for the D-air off stage? Rosalina U-air fixes that. D-Smash can be flown over and Bayonetta can't punish Rosalina for that because of it's endlag and because Bayonetta doesn't move fast. Rosalina can also start the Luma Spin technique from this position. Rosalina's D-air counters Bayonetta's Up-B because of the disjoint and it can even spike, so Rosalina easily gimps Bayonetta. F-air combos don't work on Rosalina because of DI. Rosalina is floaty enough to stall off stage dodge if need be, her Up-B alone can recover back to the stage even from past the bottom of the screen.

I'm not gonna continue discussing this if it's just gonna be "no no, Bayonetta can TOTALLY do this" especially when all of the play time I've done, others have done, and professional player streams I've seen say otherwise.

Bayonetta lacks an approach game against a character that has both an exceptional zoning and approach game herself, and struggles to combo this character, and also gimped use of Smashes and Witch Time. It's not a hard MU for Rosalina at all.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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I agree. I think I'll leave it there too.

Most of the more important, definite, and obvious stuff was in my initial post so if people want to reference me just look at that one more than anything.
You have some really good points though. We have to wait for some actual matches now.
 

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I played some matches against Bayonetta with Rosalina and AFAIK Rosalina has a small advantage against the Umbra Witch, mainly because of Luma that can disrupt combos and block Bayonetta's sideb with Star Bits, I know it needs a read, yeah, but it's incredibly useful. The moment Luma is gone, Rosalina is in a small disadvantage, I would say this is the match-up where Luma is crucial, more than any other.
I pretty much agree with everything ChikoLad ChikoLad has said and I want to add that if Rosalina escapes the Bayo's death ladder she can retaliate with her uair to quickly end her life, like Dabuz does against Nairo for the ZSS missed upb.

Don't take this as set in stone whatsoever. These are my observations in the matches I played in these last days.
 
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ChikoLad

Purple Boi
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Messages
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You have some really good points though. We have to wait for some actual matches now.
Pretty much. Even so, I don't expect other Rosalina players to play the same as me, I've been told my playstyle has more to it than most Rosalina players, so Bayonetta might not be too bad early on, especially since she's new and Rosalina players will have to get into the MU first.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Bayonetta does in general, in any case.
 
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