Bayonetta Combo & Followup Thread! [WIP]

[Zult]

So I've been trying Zult's combo, but the divekick is real hard to land, any tips to make it easier?

Dive kick after twitch twist or after the ABK? If after the witch twist, you have to jump forward and do it. Not just jump. If you buffer the input during the witch twist (half a second or so before the witch twist ends) you'l be holding forward when you jump and then can do a dive kick. I don't know if that makes sense. It's a bit hard to explain.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Dive kick after twitch twist or after the ABK? If after the witch twist, you have to jump forward and do it. Not just jump. If you buffer the input during the witch twist (half a second or so before the witch twist ends) you'l be holding forward when you jump and then can do a dive kick. I don't know if that makes sense. It's a bit hard to explain.

Waaah? There's only one divekick in that combo. Anyways, thanks for the help. I just broke my screen so rip for now, but I'll try that out once the new one arrives on Friday.

 

[adz]

on certain characters, i do dtilt -> dABK -> dABk -> fair1 - Wtwist -> dj fair1 ->wtiwst -> (optional if above doesn't kill) -> uair
everything from the two divekicks is true

 

[Otterz]

on certain characters, i do dtilt -> dABK -> dABk -> fair1 - Wtwist -> dj fair1 ->wtiwst -> (optional if above doesn't kill) -> uair
everything from the two divekicks is true

True without DI. Down and Away should get them out of the Fair 1 combos.

 

[adz]

True without DI. Down and Away should get them out of the Fair 1 combos.

after much lab work, sometimes just wtwist -> dj wtwist can kill. this combo mostly works on lightweight/floaty chars.

 

[Dark_Ky]

what is your go to combo after ub-B at 0%?

 

[Zult]

what is your go to combo after ub-B at 0%?

Depends on the character.

 

[Dark_Ky]

Depends on the character.

I know. combos for heavy-, medium-, lightweight & fastfallers?

 

[Flamegeyser]

There are lots of "good" combos after WTw, but few of them are guaranteed. The most consistent one IMO is WTw->WTw->fair 123, and even that doesn't always work. I believe double WTw will always fail on Samus and maybe a few others, it's kind of a crapshoot to be honest.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I know. combos for heavy-, medium-, lightweight & fastfallers?

I'm still working on it, but maybe Twist > DJ Twist > ABK > ABK > Bair? Substituting dABK > Fair 1 2 3 for fastfallers?

Alternately, Twist > ABK > DJ Twist > ABK > Bair. Possibly doing the double jump before ABK instead.

Jigglypuff and Samus have been some of the weirdest characters to practice on in my experience just because they're so damn floaty. Fastfallers also require some adjustment (mostly dABK instead of ABK at low percents) but because they're fastfallers you can still combo them for tons of damage so that's a bit of a wash.

(Side note: DJ Twist sounds like a weird music performer name.)

 

[Flamegeyser]

I feel like I'm going insane, fam. WTw2 uair is true and does confirm, but I have no idea in hell how to do it consistently. I know it's a real good anti-DI kill/finisher, so how can I get this good?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I feel like I'm going insane, fam. WTw2 uair is true and does confirm, but I have no idea in hell how to do it consistently. I know it's a real good anti-DI kill/finisher, so how can I get this good?

It doesn't register as a true combo in training mode, in my experience. At the same time though I've never had the AI dodge it and they're normally on point with that sort of thing, so...yeah. I don't even know.

 

[Flamegeyser]

It doesn't register as a true combo in training mode, in my experience. At the same time though I've never had the AI dodge it and they're normally on point with that sort of thing, so...yeah. I don't even know.

It's awful tight on the timing, but I've gotten it to work a couple times, and as far as I know it can't be DI'd, which is why I wanna get it so bad.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'll try to make a nice flow chart for combos sometime soon. We've been needing one.

In the meantime, the My Smash Corner video is like the newb Bayo Bible.

 

[Darklink401]

My favorite: Dtilt > fair > up B > jump > dabk x2 > up B

It's risky cuz you gotta be precise with the dabkicks or risk death XD but it works errtime I do it well.


Also WT2 to upair starts comboing at mid-high %s, like 60%+ or so.

 

[Flamegeyser]

So at about 50% or so, the combo dtilt->fair1->WTw1->jump fair1->ABK->WTw2->ABK->uair starts killing, but that feels like it should be escapable, is it then?

Also, thanks for the info, Darklink.

 

[Dark_Ky]

how do you reverse your ub-B?

 

[Darklink401]

how do you reverse your ub-B?

Like any other move :3 Just flick the stick the opposite direction you're facing right after inputting the special.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Hey guys! So, I have been having difficulty finding good combos to use after a Witch Time apart from the standard DSmash spike stuff. I was wondering if you guys knew of any good ones, especially when the opponent isn't near the ledge. I know that some videos have been posted about this, but with the latest 1.1.6. patch, they don't seen to be viable. I'd really appreciate it!

Also...

I can't wait for them Bayonetta guides!!!

Here you go. A WIP Bayo guide.

EDIT: Also includes Bayo combos (except for Witch Time)!

 

[Flamegeyser]

Hey guys! So, I have been having difficulty finding good combos to use after a Witch Time apart from the standard DSmash spike stuff. I was wondering if you guys knew of any good ones, especially when the opponent isn't near the ledge. I know that some videos have been posted about this, but with the latest 1.1.6. patch, they don't seen to be viable. I'd really appreciate it!

Also...


Here you go. A WIP Bayo guide.

EDIT: Also includes Bayo combos (except for Witch Time)!

Ohohoh boy do I have one for you. It's not mine, but I just ended up seeing this a few minutes ago. It works from 0%, and it does 80% DAMAGE! WATCH!

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

Wow! That is... how... I can't...

Thank you so much for showing me that! I really appreciate it. That is an insane combo. I definitely look forward to using that in the future (if I can remember it)!

 

[Masque]

So it looks like reverse-hit Uair is going to be one of our new go-to tools for stringing together combos. It's unfortunate, though, that staling the move will lower its KO potential.

I was on For Glory last night to test out 1.1.6, and it's amazing how many people taunted and teabagged just because of my character choice, almost as if to say "how do you like that nerf bat?" Cheeky. :/

 

[Flamegeyser]

It's been a while, hasn't it? Well our combo game has obviously changed significantly. The Bayo Discord is full of people trying to learn new combos, ones that we've always had but never had to do. The most prominent ones are nicknamed "Paradiso" (fair1->uair, it combos into itself multiple times at low%s and is near impossible to DI), and Purgatorio (uair->sour bair and vice versa, linked multiple times, comboing at low%s for between 50%->80% depending on followups). Both of these require very tight timing(in the single digits of frames), and probably hours of practice, but they're highly rewarding as you can see. If we can rack up damage this quickly, all it takes is one more read to kill, and in that way we still have amazing potential.

So it looks like reverse-hit Uair is going to be one of our new go-to tools for stringing together combos. It's unfortunate, though, that staling the move will lower its KO potential.

I was on For Glory last night to test out 1.1.6, and it's amazing how many people taunted and teabagged just because of my character choice, almost as if to say "how do you like that nerf bat?" Cheeky. :/

Pivot uairs are incredible, although simple DI can cheese us out of any followups. I swear, if uair hit from the front, it'd be Godly. Anyways, I still super suck at pivot uairs, so my go-to combos are either Purgatorio, Paradiso (if I think I can land it), or nair->ABK and so on.

 

[TheColorfulOrca]

It's been a while, hasn't it? Well our combo game has obviously changed significantly. The Bayo Discord is full of people trying to learn new combos, ones that we've always had but never had to do. The most prominent ones are nicknamed "Paradiso" (fair1->uair, it combos into itself multiple times at low%s and is near impossible to DI), and Purgatorio (uair->sour bair and vice versa, linked multiple times, comboing at low%s for between 50%->80% depending on followups). Both of these require very tight timing(in the single digits of frames), and probably hours of practice, but they're highly rewarding as you can see. If we can rack up damage this quickly, all it takes is one more read to kill, and in that way we still have amazing potential.

Pivot uairs are incredible, although simple DI can cheese us out of any followups. I swear, if uair hit from the front, it'd be Godly. Anyways, I still super suck at pivot uairs, so my go-to combos are either Purgatorio, Paradiso (if I think I can land it), or nair->ABK and so on.

I see lots of top Bayo players using Paradiso, but I'm no good at it yet. I always do the next hit of Fair instead of the Uair, as I get too anxious I'll be too late...

I find myself often using the late hit of Uair to begin combos, as i has the same knockback (I think) and allows us to combo into Fair. For me, it's a lot easier than the early hit, which takes a lot of precision. The late hit isn't as tight, which can make it more reliable.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I see lots of top Bayo players using Paradiso, but I'm no good at it yet. I always do the next hit of Fair instead of the Uair, as I get too anxious I'll be too late...

I find myself often using the late hit of Uair to begin combos, as i has the same knickknack (I think) and allows us to combo into Fair. For me, it's a lot easier than the early hit, which takes a lot of precision. The late hit isn't as tight, which can make it more reliable.

Oh yeah, Paradiso is super hard, way harder than Purgatorio since you can't buffer an input. I often get fair2 instead of uair as well, although so long as their airdodge isn't Mewtwo level, you have at least some leeway (AKA like 2 more frames lol). Purgatorio itself is rumored to be a frametrap itself in the Bayo Discord, as if they airdodge bair, the landing lag can be hit by uair, and if they jump they get hit, but more on that as it gets confirmed.

 

[CyberZixx]

Flamegeyser how does one get on that discord? sounds like the spot where all the good discussion is

 

[Flamegeyser]

Flamegeyser how does one get on that discord? sounds like the spot where all the good discussion is

The easiest way is through this link, http://smashcord.com/character.html
Just click Bayonetta and you're free to join. There's also a secondary Matchup Discord which is less active.

I don't think we have too many in the way of top professionals in our Discord, other than Tyroy, but it's still a great place to learn and contribute to the metagame discussion, come on join!

 

[Fenny]

Ohohoh boy do I have one for you. It's not mine, but I just ended up seeing this a few minutes ago. It works from 0%, and it does 80% DAMAGE! WATCH!

You should really follow ikep on twitter (even if you don't have it, check him out). He has some insane ability to go from 0% to as high as 86% on some characters off of Witch Times and sometimes nothing but aerials and D-tilt/U-tilt conversions.

 

[Lakuto]

A combo similar to "Paradiso"(Fair1>Uair) is Fair1>Nair.
At very low % (0-10), it only leads to grab or a crouch sliding Dtilt (that can set up for Paradiso). Crouch sliding is hard though.
After around 15% though, SH Fair1>Nair can chain with itself nicely just like Paradiso 2 or 3 times. After that, you'll end up off stage with your opponent for a potential gimp /off the side death combo.

It marks as a true combo in training but I guess DIing out could make the combo harder to do. I have pulled that out against friend and its quite legit to me.

 

[ElMoro995]

A combo similar to "Paradiso"(Fair1>Uair) is Fair1>Nair.
At very low % (0-10), it only leads to grab or a crouch sliding Dtilt (that can set up for Paradiso). Crouch sliding is hard though.
After around 15% though, SH Fair1>Nair can chain with itself nicely just like Paradiso 2 or 3 times. After that, you'll end up off stage with your opponent for a potential gimp /off the side death combo.

It marks as a true combo in training but I guess DIing out could make the combo harder to do. I have pulled that out against friend and its quite legit to me.

Yep I tried fair1->nair at prepatch times, and it worked well against fastfallers chaining with itself 2 or 3 times, but I think DI will screw this, maybe Paradiso is more consistent. What about crouch sliding with bayo? She can't crawl, how is she supposed to do crouch sliding?

 

[Lakuto]

Yep I tried fair1->nair at prepatch times, and it worked well against fastfallers chaining with itself 2 or 3 times, but I think DI will screw this, maybe Paradiso is more consistent. What about crouch sliding with bayo? She can't crawl, how is she supposed to do crouch sliding?

Paradiso is probably better. The only is that you have to do a rising SH Fair1 to get Paradiso. Fair1 > Nair could be use when you are landing with Fair1, or even Fair1 on shield to Nair is the opponent drops shield after Fair1.

For the crouch sliding, i was talking about this:

空NAから滑れるってことはこうなるんだよね 低パー時なら今まで先端しか確定してなかったのが根本当てにできる pic.twitter.com/h8d2UloG4m

— ikep (@ikep334) June 23, 2016

It involves a miss tech here but i think getting the Dtilt before they land could be doable.

But yeah, gonna test if DI out kills the combo when I can.

 

[Flamegeyser]

A combo similar to "Paradiso"(Fair1>Uair) is Fair1>Nair.
At very low % (0-10), it only leads to grab or a crouch sliding Dtilt (that can set up for Paradiso). Crouch sliding is hard though.
After around 15% though, SH Fair1>Nair can chain with itself nicely just like Paradiso 2 or 3 times. After that, you'll end up off stage with your opponent for a potential gimp /off the side death combo.

It marks as a true combo in training but I guess DIing out could make the combo harder to do. I have pulled that out against friend and its quite legit to me.

Ahh yes, I found out about the same not too long after I got fair1->uair down. It's easier IMO, but I still don't know how to crouch slide lol.

 

[ElMoro995]

Paradiso is probably better. The only is that you have to do a rising SH Fair1 to get Paradiso. Fair1 > Nair could be use when you are landing with Fair1, or even Fair1 on shield to Nair is the opponent drops shield after Fair1.

For the crouch sliding, i was talking about this:

空NAから滑れるってことはこうなるんだよね 低パー時なら今まで先端しか確定してなかったのが根本当てにできる pic.twitter.com/h8d2UloG4m

— ikep (@ikep334) June 23, 2016

It involves a miss tech here but i think getting the Dtilt before they land could be doable.

But yeah, gonna test if DI out kills the combo when I can.

Uh I only knew the backwards crouch sliding for characters with crawl, thanks for the video

 

[MikiLink]

What about the WT2 > DownAir combo? Is it reliable as a mixup? i love combos that involve downair, and i want to lab a bit about it

 

[Flamegeyser]

What about the WT2 > DownAir combo? Is it reliable as a mixup? i love combos that involve downair, and i want to lab a bit about it

What combos that involve dair Kappa.
Hah, if you can find a true combo into dair without Witch Time, I'll give you 5$.
The thing you described might be a frametrap, but people could just attack you out of it too.

 

[MikiLink]

Yea i mean not true combos, but just some mixups i was also using the downair to cover some ledge options such as normal or attack even jump if you do that high enough but ofc it can cover the roll or just waiting to the ledge

Also PinkFresh is using it more than usual

 

[BJN39]

I think this would be the most appropriate place (Outside eventually Crescent Valley of course)

Not really finished and stuff, but obviously knowing how guaranteed (Or if guaranteed) an attack is is nice data.

Bayonetta has a ton of data that is relatively complex, sso read this stuff to understand how the table is formatted and why there are multiples of certain attacks.

Right off the bat:
- Top row of percents are various percents...which should be obvious. They're the victim percents.
- The four numbers in each box refer to: ##F/##F -> the number of frames of hitstun induced (Bowser's weight/Jigglypuff's weight). +##/+## -> The frame advantage Bayonetta has upon FAF of her move in question. (Again, using Bowser/Jiggs)
- Due to how hitstun works, any hitstun of 40F or higher can be cancelled with airdodge, (Cancelled on frame 41, as though it had a FAF of 41 but only for airdodges) thus, the "+##" cap off at every move once they reach 40F of hitstun. HOWEVER, you cannot jump out of htistun until "Hitstun ends" thus the "##F/##F" still counts up. By doing a little maths you can figure out when the attacks can be cancelled with jumps at higher percents.
- ALL NUMBERS CONSIDER ONLY THE FIRST HITFRAME OF THE MOVES CONCERNED. But doing the math to get the hit advantage on the second third etc frame is not difficult. Just add +1 to the advantage for every frame later of a hitbox.
- For application: know how many frames it takes to use x/y/z attack and figure out if it is an applicable followup (ALso considering if a move does not knock too far by the time it works!)

Move stuffs:
- Ftilt1 "65/25"/"45/25"/"50/15" refer to three different hitboxes on Ftilt1 which all have to be considered. 50/15 is the only relevant hitbox versus aerial targets. 65/25 and 45/25 are the inner and outer spacing-wise hitboxes versus grounded targets. As you can see, only one of them guarantees a grab followup. fyi the numbers refer to each hitbox's base kb and kb growth.
- Dtilt has negligible hitstun differences between the two different damages.
- FAir1 has three different hitboxes, with different levels of hitstun. The innermost and lower one (Refer to Furil's hitbox visuals work) has the highest htistun, while the outermost reaching one has far less hitstun.
- It looks like there is a narrow percent area where non-correctly-DI'd Ftilt 3 should JUST lead into guaranteed Witch Twist. Looks really tight, however...

|000%|025%|050%|075%|100%|125%|150%
Ftilt1 62/25|25F/25F +6/+6|26F/26F +7/+7|27F/28F +8/+9|28F/29F +9/+10|29F/30F +10/+11|29F/31F +10/+12|30F/32F +11/+13
Ftilt1 45/25|18F/18F -1/-1 |19F/20F 0/+1|20F/21F +1/+2|21F/22F +2/+3|22F/23F +3/+4|23F/24F +4/+5|23F/25F +4/+6
Ftilt1 50/15 |20F/20F +1/+1|20F/20F +1/+1|21F/21F +2/+2|21F/22F +2/+3|22F/22F +3/+3|22F/23F +3/+4|23F/24F +4/+5
Ftilt3|32F/33F +4/+5|36F/38F +8/+10|40F/43F +12/+12|44F/48F +12/+12|47F/54F +12/+12|51F/59F +12/+12|55F/64F +12/+12
Dtilt 6%|31F/31F +12/+12|33F/34F +14/+15|36F/38F +17/+19|38F/41F +19/+21|40F/44F +21/+21|43F/48F +21/+21|45F/51F +21/+21
Dtilt 7%|31F/31F +12/+12|34F/35F +15/+16|36F/39F +17/+20|39F/42F +20/+21|42F/46F +21/+21|45F/50F +21/+21|47F/54F +21/+21
Utilt hit1|34F/34F +15/+15|35F/36F +16/+17|37F/39F +18/+20|39F/41F +20/+21|41F/43F +21/+21|42F/46F +21/+21|44F/48F +21/+21
Utilt hit2|28F/28F +13/+13|30F/32F +15/+17|33F/36F +18/+21|36F/40F +21/+25|39F/44F +24/+25|42F/48F +25/+25|45F/52F +25/+25
FAir1 80bkb|31F/31F +12/+12|32F/32F +13/+13|32F/32F +13/+13|32F/33F +13/+14|32F/33F +13/+14|33F/33F +14/+14|33F/34F +14/+15
FAir1 70bkb|27F/27F +8/+8|28F/28F +9/+9|28F/28F +9/+9|28F/29F +9/+10|28F/29F +9/+10|29F/29F +10/+10|29F/30F +10/+11
FAir1 65bkb|25F/25F +6/+6|26F/26F +7/+7|26F/26F +7/+7|26F/27F +7/+8|26F/27F +7/+8|27F/27F +8/+8|27F/28F +8/+9
HSlide 1a 72 |37F/37F -19/-19|38F/39F -18/-17|39F/40F -17/-16|41F/42F -16/-16|42F/44F -16/-16|43F/45F -16/-16|44F/47F -16/-16
HSlide 1b 72 |34F/34F -17/-17|35F/36F -16/-15|36F/37F -15/-14|38F/39F -13/-12|39F/41F -12/-11|40F/42F -11/-11|41F/44F -11/-11
HSlide 1c 72 |32F/32F -14/-14|33F/34F -13/-12|34F/35F -12/-11|35F/37F -11/-9|37F/38F -9/-8|38F/40F -8/-6|39F/41F -7/-6
HSlide 2 78|30F/30F +7/+7|33F/34F +10/+11|36F/38F +13/+15|39F/42F +16/+17|42F/46F +17/+17|45F/50F +17/+17|47F/54F +17/+17
ABKa 65/50|29F/29F +5/+5|31F/32F +7/+8|34F/36F +10/+12|36F/39F +12/+15|38F/42F +14/+16|41F/46F +16/+16|43F/49F +16/+16
ABKa 60/50|27F/27F +3/+3|29F/30F +5/+6|32F/34F +8/+10|34F/37F +10/+13|36F/40F +12/+16|39F/44F +15/+16|41F/47F +16/+16
ABKb 60/38|26F/26F +5/+5|28F/29F +7/+8|30F/32F +9/+12|32F/35F +11/+14|34F/37F +13/+16|36F/40F +15/+19|38F/43F +17/+19
ABKb 40/38|18F/18F -3/-3 |20F/21F -1 /0|22F/24F +1/+3|24F/27F +3/+6|26F/29F +5/+8|28F/32F +7/+11|30F/35F +9/+14
ABKc W:98|
ABKc W:70|
WTwist u1|27F/27F +23/+23|29F/30F +25/+26|31F/33F +27/+29|34F/37F +30/+33|36F/40F +32/+36|39F/43F +35/+36|41F/47F +36/+36
WTwist u2|14F/14F +10/+10|16F/16F +12/+12|17F/19F +13/+15|19F/21F +15/+17|20F/23F +16/+19|22F/25F +18/+21|23F/27F +19/+23

Please ask questions because I can forget to mention things that may need to be known.


Also get off of discord how am I supposed to discuss data with the witches when they aren't even populating their homeland.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Nice table you got there, BJN39. I myself prefer utilt combos, which are surprisingly easy to get thanks to HSK, dtilt, and uthrow frametraps. However, bair combos are the most lucrative (and stylish) but are hard to land unless you hit with the base of dtilt or get a really nice air read.

 

[Lakuto]

I feel like BA Uair is a very underrated move right now. Have a few things to say about it that weren't mentionned in the Bayonetta guide (in the combo part at least).

- BA Uair can be used to juggle in the air at specific percent. For exemple, at around 20-30%, if you go for an Uair on an airborne opponent, you can get another one(Uair > Uair = 18%) but you won't get anything more that is true expect maybe an Up B. On the other hand, BA Uair can combo around those percent. Basically you can get a Bair follow up after BA Uair (26%). When Bair doesn't connect, you can still get a free ABK. Futhermore, running off stage with BA Uair knowing that it combos into Bair at low percent can be a nice edgeguarding tool, more knockback that BA Nair at least.

- BA Uair on landing has a weak hit that can combo into ABK at kill percent. Things like landing BA > ABK > Nair is possible. BA Uair combos into Fair at low percent. You only get the hit of Fair1 that combos less so you can't really have a true combo after that. I could see BA Uair > Fair1 ~> Fast Fall Utilt if the opponent doesn't airdodge or BA Uair > Fair1 ~> Crossunder Pivot Grab if he does.

- BA Uair on landing has another weird property if you hit with the close hit of the bullets after the weak hit. What happens is that the opponent goes out of hitstun and lands just right in front of you after the BA Uair. For that to happen, you have to get the timing right but it kinda happens randomly though. I don't if it works on the all cast. Anyway, just after that happens, you can follow up with a grab or attack. I don't know if you have frame advandage or not though so this might not be that helpful if that's not the case...

 

[Flamegeyser]

I feel like BA Uair is a very underrated move right now. Have a few things to say about it that weren't mentionned in the Bayonetta guide (in the combo part at least).

- BA Uair can be used to juggle in the air at specific percent. For exemple, at around 20-30%, if you go for an Uair on an airborne opponent, you can get another one(Uair > Uair = 18%) but you won't get anything more that is true expect maybe an Up B. On the other hand, BA Uair can combo around those percent. Basically you can get a Bair follow up after BA Uair (26%). When Bair doesn't connect, you can still get a free ABK. Futhermore, running off stage with BA Uair knowing that it combos into Bair at low percent can be a nice edgeguarding tool, more knockback that BA Nair at least.

- BA Uair on landing has a weak hit that can combo into ABK at kill percent. Things like landing BA > ABK > Nair is possible. BA Uair combos into Fair at low percent. You only get the hit of Fair1 that combos less so you can't really have a true combo after that. I could see BA Uair > Fair1 ~> Fast Fall Utilt if the opponent doesn't airdodge or BA Uair > Fair1 ~> Crossunder Pivot Grab if he does.

- BA Uair on landing has another weird property if you hit with the close hit of the bullets after the weak hit. What happens is that the opponent goes out of hitstun and lands just right in front of you after the BA Uair. For that to happen, you have to get the timing right but it kinda happens randomly though. I don't if it works on the all cast. Anyway, just after that happens, you can follow up with a grab or attack. I don't know if you have frame advandage or not though so this might not be that helpful if that's not the case...

Excellent point, that move is really slept on, thanks for the idea!