Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

[NeoSeth]

So if Pit uses his arrows on ZSS or has the advantage against her, would that make it even in a way? Like how Pit has to handle Shiek.

I don't think the match-up is even, despite Pit's ability to shut down a low recovery. ZSS's tether is fast and mobile, so Pit really has to be ready to intercept it. I'm 99.99% sure it's impossible on reaction. It's just a cool trick Pit has to force her to recover high, imo. Tether recovery is really good most of the time, so if Pit just starts covering it right away it can catch ZSS before they adapt. Then you can get a read on the high recovery and punish accordingly. But ZSS's punish game on Pit is a lot stronger than Pit's punish game on her, and Pit doesn't really win enough in the neutral to make up for it (if the neutral is even in his favor, which I'm not at all convinced that it is to be honest). And while Pit is good at edgeguarding ZSS, she's also pretty good at edgeguarding him.

What do you think your tools would be against ZSS?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I don't think the match-up is even, despite Pit's ability to shut down a low recovery. ZSS's tether is fast and mobile, so Pit really has to be ready to intercept it. I'm 99.99% sure it's impossible on reaction. It's just a cool trick Pit has to force her to recover high, imo. Tether recovery is really good most of the time, so if Pit just starts covering it right away it can catch ZSS before they adapt. Then you can get a read on the high recovery and punish accordingly. But ZSS's punish game on Pit is a lot stronger than Pit's punish game on her, and Pit doesn't really win enough in the neutral to make up for it (if the neutral is even in his favor, which I'm not at all convinced that it is to be honest). And while Pit is good at edgeguarding ZSS, she's also pretty good at edgeguarding him.

What do you think your tools would be against ZSS?

For ZSS,I just use arrows, grabs, airials, and ftilt with the tippet if it's a good Samus. If it's a For Glory player, I just walk around like Acestarthe3rd does.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm inclined to think Sheik, Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu are Pit's most difficult matchups, hence why I wanted to discuss them first.

I think it's fair to say ZSS and Pikachu can be considered 40:60 or -2 matchups. I don't think it's worse than that, but for Pit, it's definitely worth considering. Sheik I think is somewhere between 45:55 and 40:60, or -1 and -2.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I'm inclined to think Sheik, Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu are Pit's most difficult matchups, hence why I wanted to discuss them first.

I think it's fair to say ZSS and Pikachu can be considered 40:60 or -2 matchups. I don't think it's worse than that, but for Pit, it's definitely worth considering. Sheik I think is somewhere between 45:55 and 40:60, or -1 and -2.

What about Dark Pit though? We do need to remember the differences that help out both(Pittoo doing better against Pika, Pit doing better against Shiek, and ZSS...something).

 

[Wintropy]

What about Dark Pit though? We do need to remember the differences that help out both(Pittoo doing better against Pika, Pit doing better against Shiek, and ZSS...something).

I don't know if either does better. I'd need evidence to demonstrate that.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I don't know if either does better. I'd need evidence to demonstrate that.

I know after tons of battles with @ Koiba and online Pikachus, Electroshock can ko him quicker than Upperdash, while Pit can use arrows and Upperdash to do the same to Shiek. I can link a couple videos for examples.

 

[Wintropy]

I know after tons of battles with @ Koiba and online Pikachus, Electroshock can ko him quicker than Upperdash, while Pit can use arrows and Upperdash to do the same to Shiek. I can link a couple videos for examples.

How does it kill better?

I mean, how does it kill better in the way that Upperdash can't?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

How does it kill earlier?

I mean, how does it kill earlier in the way that Upperdash can't?

It's easier to get Pikachu near the ledge or offstage then Electroshock than it is with Pit's Upperdash(also helps since hes short), while Upperdash can ko Shiek anywhere. Considering it's hard to get Shiek near the ledge, it's very helpful.

 

[Koiba]

It's easier to get Pikachu near the ledge or offstage

Can you explain this a bit more please?~

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Can you explain this a bit more please?~

Since Darkness Arrows(the ones they use for the Silver Bow for some reason)are a bit thicker than Palutena Arrows, it's easier to hit Pikachu without moving the arrows that much, and if a Pikachu tries to get back to the stage, Dark Pit can use Electroshock to knock him back away from it even when he has no more jumps.

 

[Wintropy]

Thing is, every Pika matchup boils down to the same essential question:

Can you deal with Quick Attack?

Does Pit have any tools to deal with it? Remember that Pika can just say "nah I'm done being edgeguarded" and zip back to the stage whenever he wants to, if he's in range. It's a very good button.

 

[Koiba]

Just a couple questions~

Since Darkness Arrows(the ones they use for the Silver Bow for some reason)are a bit thicker than Palutena Arrows, it's easier to hit Pikachu without moving the arrows that much,

Wouldn't this apply to all chars then? And why would you use the arrows if thunder jolt clashes with it?

I mean if you don't aim the arrows down and if Pikachu just stands there it barely misses

If Pika crouches and you don't aim it down you'll miss

and if a Pikachu tries to get back to the stage, Dark Pit can use Electroshock to knock him back away from it even when he has no more jumps.

wot

Like aerial electroshock?

Thing is, every Pika matchup boils down to the same essential question:

Can you deal with Quick Attack?

Does Pit have any tools to deal with it? Remember that Pika can just say "nah I'm done being edgeguarded" and zip back to the stage whenever he wants to, if he's in range. It's a very good button.

Pika's recovery options are literally god tier

Even with his double jump burned he'll still make it back as long as you have aim

Skull bash goes a nice distance

Has a wall jump and QA has a hitbox and it's not very predictable at times

Of course if he messes up in the slightest it's bad

Like very bad

So we're assuming we're facing a Pika offline right?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Thing is, every Pika matchup boils down to the same essential question:

Can you deal with Quick Attack?

Does Pit have any tools to deal with it? Remember that Pika can just say "nah I'm done being edgeguarded" and zip back to the stage whenever he wants to, if he's in range. It's a very good button.

Either GOs, Side-B, or take a risk and do a stage spike.

Just a couple questions~


Wouldn't this apply to all chars then? And why would you use the arrows if thunder jolt clashes with it?

I mean if you don't aim the arrows down and if Pikachu just stands there it barely misses

If Pika crouches and you don't aim it down you'll miss


wot

Like aerial electroshock?

Pika's recovery options are literally god tier

Even with his double jump burned he'll still make it back as long as you have aim

Skull bash goes a nice distance

Has a wall jump and QA has a hitbox and it's not very predictable at times

Of course if he messes up in the slightest it's bad

Like very bad

So we're assuming we're facing a Pika offline right?

Pikachu can just shoot out Thunder Jolf twice within 2 seconds, and you only need to shoot out one. Think of it as Pikachu being Chaos Kin and Pit has to keep on going until he gets tired, or you can jump right over.

If a character like Wii Fit Trainer or Kirby has a low crotch, then that's when it's useful. Everyone else don't have one, so it's not as useful on them.

That's why you move down the arrows, a tad bit though.

Grounded and Airial Electroshock depending on if Pikachu's right next to the stage without grabbing the ledge or using a special, or if he's under the stage, allowing to get a stage spike.

Villager's and Max Aura/Rage Mode Lucario's recoveries are god tier.

 

[Wintropy]

So we're assuming we're facing a Pika offline right?

Imagine both characters represent the optimal playstyle in an offline tourney.

Either GOs, Side-B, or take a risk and do a stage spike.

That's easier said than done, isn't it? I mean, that's disregarding the fact that QA is intangible and near-instant. It doesn't matter if you use Orbies, Pikachu will just dash around it, every other move is just taking a risk to hit an opponent that can go somewhere else if needs be.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Imagine both characters represent the optimal playstyle in an offline tourney.



That's easier said than done, isn't it? I mean, that's disregarding the fact that QA is intangible and near-instant. It doesn't matter if you use Orbies, Pikachu will just dash around it, every other move is just taking a risk to hit an opponent that can go somewhere else if needs be.

There are times where Pikachu will just slide right back offstage in helpless mode, and you could always time GOs right(when he's aboUT to move again or when he moves in the first place). Unless I'm wrong, Pikachu can only move a direction once(up and left instead of up up).

 

[Koiba]

Either GOs, Side-B, or take a risk and do a stage spike.

But QA has less endlag then GOs even if you hit them 'cause reasons

Pikachu can just shoot out Thunder Jolf twice within 2 seconds, and you only need to shoot out one. Think of it as Pikachu being Chaos Kin and Pit has to keep on going until he gets tired, or you can jump right over.

If you're talking about grounded thunder jolts then yes technically your right

If you do aerial thunder jolts you can fire them at a much faster rate and get potential follow ups

That's why you move down the arrows, a tad bit though.

That's when you jump or shield

Grounded and Airial Electroshock depending on if Pikachu's right next to the stage without grabbing the ledge or using a special, or if he's under the stage, allowing to get a stage spike.

So if the Pikachu's just standing there?

Villager's and Max Aura/Rage Mode Lucario's recoveries are god tier.

recovery is very situational and hard to control at times

Villager's recovery goes a long way but you can't attack out of it or doesn't have a hitbox. But him having a walljump is nice

Pikachu's though imo has the best recovery options

 

[TMNTSSB4]

But QA has less endlag then GOs even if you hit them 'cause reasons


If you're talking about grounded thunder jolts then yes technically your right

If you do aerial thunder jolts you can fire them at a much faster rate and get potential follow ups

That's when you jump or shield


So if the Pikachu's just standing there?

recovery is very situational and hard to control at times

Villager's recovery goes a long way but you can't attack out of it or doesn't have a hitbox. But him having a walljump is nice

Pikachu's though imo has the best recovery options

That may be true, but GOs has a wind effect and a sliding effect I guess.

Grounded Thunder Jolt in Pittoo's favor, Arial goes to Pit on that one.

Not everyone has to just jump or shield(unless named Little Mac or Pichu).

That, if he's stunned, or read like a book. Also just deciding t try to land safely onto the stage.

But Lucario's recovery in that state is still god tier. Can just use Ryu inputs and boom you on da stage.

Alot of recoveries don't have hitboxes and are still god tier(Power of Flight, Rosalina's, etc.)

 

[Megamang]

The recoveries you listed as "god tier" are what pikachu eats for breakfast. Falling offstage bair is an easy way to intercept any recovery without a hitbox.

 

[Coro_]

As a Pikachu, my opinion on Orbitars vs QA:
Orbitars can beat QA -if- timing is right and we're trying to go through you. If we just decide to snap to ledge there's nothing much you can do about that, which is what I do vs Pit. On-stage, getting blocked by orbitars mid QA is nothing much, since it has more endlag than QA.
As to the directions, the minimum angle difference between each is 38 degrees, enough to reach from the bubble under the stage to the ledge. So, even if we can't go straight up we can cover a huge distance.

Tjolt vs arrows:
Pikachu can run behind a full-hop tjolt, while the Pits gain no ground when firing arrows. In that sense, jolts are an approach tool while arrows can't quite do the job. Also, jolts can be fired on the ground, from a short hop, from a full-hop, retreating or advancing; there's quite a few positions and an arrow penetrating and hitting Pika isn't guranteed. You could try to outcamp the pikachu still, I guess, but it won't work very well.

 

[Wintropy]

Thanks for the input! Can you provide a matchup score?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

The recoveries you listed as "god tier" are what pikachu eats for breakfast. Falling offstage bair is an easy way to intercept any recovery without a hitbox.

You say this like Pikachu's recovery can't be spiked because it has a hitbox. Ryu's True Shoryuken on the other hand, is definitely god tier.

 

[ReRaze]

@ Wintropy (I was on camp for a week sooo..) im assuming you guys have decided to talk about the top tiers, Shiek, Zss and Pikachu? starting with Pika?

Anyways I'll give my input, in general I don't really struggle with top tiers....maybe im not playing enough good people.

When trying to intercept Pika's recovery id generally go for a fast fall fair to cover as much area as possible when guarding the ledge or if a good vibe I'll go for dair near the ledge or just reading pikachu's recovery habit, its pretty similiar to greninjas just faster and with a hitbox.

@ Coro_
Most pikachu like to approach with a thunderjolt true. If I remember correctly though we can nair, fair and dair (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played Pikachu in ages) through it and still hit pikachu or we can use fullhop arrows while jumping continously, as long as we aim down we can airdodge almost immediately after shooting them and stay safe while shooting at Pikachu from the air outcamping dem thunderjolts by curving around them. With good enough aim any decent Pit should be able to snipe a moving target easily. I agree with you though, Full hop arrows are by no means a tool that can be used to reliably camp Pikachu throughout the match. Pika has the ability to rush down charactes quite quickly and aiming downwards essentially lowers the range of our arrows (since they dont bounce along the ground like Pikachus does).

I haven't played nearly enough Pikachus to give a fair MU rating but those are my inputs from what little experience I do have.

 

[WispBae]

Hey there angel boys! The Doggy boards are discussing this MU this week and would love your input on it!

Click this picture of the best OTP PLEASE JUST KISS ALREADY HNNNG "brotherly love" to fly straight over to the thread!

(just don't take more than 5 minutes you Pit mains...)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Hey there angel boys! The Doggy boards are discussing this MU this week and would love your input on it!

Click this picture of the best OTP PLEASE JUST KISS ALREADY HNNNG "brotherly love" to fly straight over to the thread!

(just don't take more than 5 minutes you Pit mains...)

...I took WAY more than 5 minutes.

 

[Wintropy]

Okay, I'm gonna share my opinion on the ZSS matchup, based on my (distinctly brief) experience~

ZSS's gameplan pretty much revolves around her grab. Be wary of it. If you spotdodge or roll towards it, you will probably get caught, since the node on the whip can grab you even if it's extending or retreating. Best best is to just evade it whenever possible. It's pretty easy to read and ZSS is wide open when it extends, so if it misses, you've got a free punish. DON'T GO FOR THE FRONT - Pit's disjoints won't beat the whip at maximum extension. Go for a shorthop d-air or b-air.

If ZSS tries to use her Paralyzer, don't challenge it. Remember that she can go for a grab if it connects or punish a hasty jump with an aerial. The move is psychological as much as it is physical: with the option to put you in disadvantage at her own discretion, you need to play very safe. Only reflect it with Orbies if you're confident she can't punish you for it. Don't try to Upperdash it, it will just open you up for the grab. Be wary of shielding it, because that just open you up for a grab. Depending on how she follows up from Paralyzer, spotdodge, roll behind or shorthop, then punish. Rolling back just makes it easier for the grab to connect. She may deliberately do this to make you move and then punish you for it, so study her reactions in detail.

ZSS's advantage state is disgusting. D-throw opens up just about everything for her, and if you get popped into the air, u-air, f-air and b-air will make it difficult to reset. Be wary of airdodges: ZSS will read them and punish with a u-air (which has a big hitbox, perfect for catching spotdodges and wonky DI). Instead, try to fastfall dodge to beat the punish. DON'T TRY TO CHALLENGE HER IN THIS STATE - top priority is to reset, don't make it easy for her to whip you about!

ZSS can reset from disadvantage pretty handy. N-air is a quick disjoint and, in a pinch, d-air can take her back to neutral in a jiffy. Don't get hungry for the followup: f-air will trade with her f-air if she goes for it, but remember that she's quicker than us for the most part and she's got an emergency disjoint in side-b and z-air if disjoints need using.

Z-air is a disgusting spacing tool, making it difficult to get close to her. I need to stress this: DON'T CHALLENGE HER DIRECTLY. Bait and punish. Never try to force her into disadvantage. Play it safe and make good of every chance you can get to catch her, but remember that she has three aerial disjoints (n-air, side-b, z-air) and two stun options (d-smash, neutral-b): if you make a mistake and get punished for it, expect pain. Don't forget that up-b is an effective punish / OOS option and can end the stock at high percents!

Off-stage, ZSS's aerials make it difficult to gimp her effectively; this, combined with open-ended recovery options (up-b, down-b, tether) makes it so you have to be ready for several contingencies. If we recovery poorly, down-b can end the stock with a spike, so be wary. Don't try to challenge her off-stage if you don't think you can trade with her, because she can just punish you and recover with ease.

I think arrows need to be used sparingly in the matchup. ZSS is so fast and versatile and has such good disjoints that she can punish us for trying to snipe her, so try to go for disjoints instead and keep it fast and safe.

Upperdash can be useful as a hail mary, same as every other matchup, but be careful of when you use it: grab will beat it, so wait for a good opening (for example, if ZSS d-airs onto the stage or you can evade her down-b) before you go for the kill.

I think this is definitely high up there in terms of Pit's difficult matchups, maybe even his most difficult. I'd say it's a solid 40:60 or -2.

 

[Megamang]

ZSS's gameplan pretty much revolves around her grab. Be wary of it. If you spotdodge or roll towards it, you will probably get caught, since the node on the whip can grab you even if it's extending or retreating. Best best is to just evade it whenever possible. It's pretty easy to read and ZSS is wide open when it extends, so if it misses, you've got a free punish. DON'T GO FOR THE FRONT - Pit's disjoints won't beat the whip at maximum extension. Go for a shorthop d-air or b-air

She can confirm into the grab, so in that way her game doesn't really revolve around it to win the neutral unless you are very shield happy. You can spotdodge it to punish it heavily, and I wouldn't roll into ZSS unless you are very sure she is gonna grab. I don't think it can grab you while retreating btw. You really should punish it harder than d-air or b-air, you have almost a second by the time it misses.


She actually has a pretty awkward neutral. Her tools are amazing, but she has to use them precisely. She doesn't have lingering hitboxes so well timed dodges can be effective. She also has to use her spacing aerials on the way down to hit people, so you can try and stuff her if you predict a dodge. EDIT: If you predict a SHFF'd Aerial.

I hate to share this cause I use ZSS, but if she flip kicks, jump into it and airdodge. She will be forced to use the horrificly laggy jump attack.


Play her for a while or watch some ZSS stuff, you need to learn how flip kick and boost kick work or you won't win.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Does anyone hate how pretty much every ZSS main does the DThrow, 2 uairs, then recovery combo now?

 

[Wintropy]

She can confirm into the grab, so in that way her game doesn't really revolve around it to win the neutral unless you are very shield happy. You can spotdodge it to punish it heavily, and I wouldn't roll into ZSS unless you are very sure she is gonna grab. I don't think it can grab you while retreating btw. You really should punish it harder than d-air or b-air, you have almost a second by the time it misses.


She actually has a pretty awkward neutral. Her tools are amazing, but she has to use them precisely. She doesn't have lingering hitboxes so well timed dodges can be effective. She also has to use her spacing aerials on the way down to hit people, so you can try and stuff her if you predict a dodge.

I hate to share this cause I use ZSS, but if she flip kicks, jump into it and airdodge. She will be forced to use the horrificly laggy jump attack.


Play her for a while or watch some ZSS stuff, you need to learn how flip kick and boost kick work or you won't win.

Oh, okay, thanks for the info! I don't have detailed experience with ZSS, so this is just me thinking about what I remember.

The Flip Kick / Boost Kick bit is good to know. I'm gonna bear that in mind next time I verse a good ZSS, heh~

 

[ReRaze]

Ok so I'm probably the only one who thinks this but I feel Pit has the advantage in the Shiek MU for sevaral reasons, I'm definitely not just theory crafting here, I play alot of shieks and this is my take on the MU. I'll just list out key sections. This is just my opinion and feel free to correct me on anything anyone.

Fair: Shiek's fair is obviously a major component in her gameplay, it's generally very safe and comes out very fast beating out a majority of the cast's own fairs. Pit is probably one of the few characters who can challenge shiek's fair with his own fair, a well spaced fair from pit will not only beat out Shieks fair but fast fall auto cancelling it makes it extremely difficult to punish even for shiek especially if you are doing retreating fair. What makes pit's disjoint different from characters like marth and shulk? With bigger disjoints they can beat out shiek's fair much easier but the difference is on whiff, shiek can punish them because their swings take longer and have more cooldown whereas she can't punish pit (except by using needles). Using your own fair in neutral helps alot in this MU by limiting Shiek's. One thing to note is that Pit's fair also beats out bouncing fish if you space it right.

Needles: Sheik has arguably one of the better projectiles in the game with her needles being transcendent and very fast as well as having very little cooldown. This helps her outcamp a majority of the cast because they all have one thing in common, they all have horizontal trajectories so in a 1v1 camping war shiek will come out on top. This doesn't work against pit however because he can just utilize full hop arrows and aim his arrows downwards over shiek's own needles essentially outcamping her. Not only do the full hop arrows have a faster firing rate than needles but they have much less cooldown and pit is in the air making this very difficult to punish if used right. Not only that but pit can punish sheik's needles alot eaiser than the rest of the cast due to his great dash attack. This limits another of shieks major tools. It forces shiek to approach too and her better approach are generally spaced fairs and bouncing fishes both of which are beaten by pit's fair.

Offstage: Shiek has trouble killing in general, except offstage, here is where she can pressure opponents hard woth her great frame data and due her recovery being better than most of the cast. Most kills offstage come from using bouncing fish, fair or just gimping the opponent. Again sheik can't really do that to pit not only because of his disjoints but he is arguably safer offstage than she is. His multiple jumps means he can fade away from her attacks until its safe to zoom back to the ledge with his recovery, he can go alot deeper than shiek can as well as stay offstage longer. Pit is also one of the few characters who can actually punish Shiek efficiently offstage (especially because of how safe his dair is offstage). If sheik whiffs an attack e.g bouncing fish while going in for a kill, pit can afford to use a jump or fast fall to punish it without worrying about making it back to the ledge. Alot of characters may be able to punish sheik offstage for whiffing something alot harder but unlike pit they may not be able to make it back to the ledge afterwards.

Combo / Traps: Another thing Shiek may struggle with against pit is that he is arguably harder for her to combo and juggle than a majority of the cast because of his floatiness and multiple jumps. Often I find myself able to just jump out of her combos, normally losing your jump against shiek is a dangerous situation but Pit has spares. Another thing to note is that pit's nair is frame 3 so yes it is a usable combo breaker. Even though it is weak it will often interrupt or trade with shiek's attacks during strings when jump isn't fast enough to get away from something. Trading with shieks attack is a much better option than waiting out the full combo. On the other hand with shiek being a fast faller I find her very easy ro combo and juggle.

Kills: Sheik has trouble killing Pit, I often find myself living up to 140+%. Shiek doesn't really have any kill confirms and at higher percents you can sit in shield all day because she doesn't have a kill throw (just make sure to DI the right way and watch out for followups). On the other hand Pit has no trouble killing shiek even getting extremely early kills with rage. (A cool thing I found out the other day is that the upperdash arm when spaced properly, can hit shiek even if it is reflecting needles the hitbox is extended and is really janky). Upperdash arm can generally start killing shiek at 90%. The way I'm most often killed is by Vanish especially by the tricky shieks near the ledge and offstage when I'm recovering. That's probably the only move you should really be wary of.

Frame data: Shiek's frame data is tricky, it is much better than our own and that's probably the only downside in this MU but if you are aware of how fast Shiek is and react accordingly this makes the MU much easier. Just make sure to space moves, e.g. no matter how fast her fair is it can't beat our own if you space it. When shiek is right in your face don't try and challenge her head on, jump away or use nair to break out and reset the neutral where you can try gain the advantage by keeping her at bay again.

The way I say all this may make it sound like Pit completely demolishes shiek but it isn't that simple, you may not always space perfectly or you may use an arrow at the wrong time or whiff a punish or air dodge incorrectly. Shiek has an easy time setting up or punishing these mistakes with her great frame data allowing her to pressure and dictate in matches but in general if you are playing optimally this MU goes in Pit's favour imo probably 60:40.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Ok so I'm probably the only one who thinks this but I feel Pit has the advantage in the Shiek MU for sevaral reasons, I'm definitely not just theory crafting here, I play alot of shieks and this is my take on the MU. I'll just list out key sections. This is just my opinion and feel free to correct me on anything anyone.

Fair: Shiek's fair is obviously a major component in her gameplay, it's generally very safe and comes out very fast beating out a majority of the cast's own fairs. Pit is probably one of the few characters who can challenge shiek's fair with his own fair, a well spaced fair from pit will not only beat out Shieks fair but fast fall auto cancelling it makes it extremely difficult to punish even for shiek especially if you are doing retreating fair. What makes pit's disjoint different from characters like marth and shulk? With bigger disjoints they can beat out shiek's fair much easier but the difference is on whiff, shiek can punish them because their swings take longer and have more cooldown whereas she can't punish pit (except by using needles). Using your own fair in neutral helps alot in this MU by limiting Shiek's. One thing to note is that Pit's fair also beats out bouncing fish if you space it right.

Needles: Sheik has arguably one of the better projectiles in the game with her needles being transcendent and very fast as well as having very little cooldown. This helps her outcamp a majority of the cast because they all have one thing in common, they all have horizontal trajectories so in a 1v1 camping war shiek will come out on top. This doesn't work against pit however because he can just utilize full hop arrows and aim his arrows downwards over shiek's own needles essentially outcamping her. Not only do the full hop arrows have a faster firing rate than needles but they have much less cooldown and pit is in the air making this very difficult to punish if used right. Not only that but pit can punish sheik's needles alot eaiser than the rest of the cast due to his great dash attack. This limits another of shieks major tools. It forces shiek to approach too and her better approach are generally spaced fairs and bouncing fishes both of which are beaten by pit's fair.

Offstage: Shiek has trouble killing in general, except offstage, here is where she can pressure opponents hard woth her great frame data and due her recovery being better than most of the cast. Most kills offstage come from using bouncing fish, fair or just gimping the opponent. Again sheik can't really do that to pit not only because of his disjoints but he is arguably safer offstage than she is. His multiple jumps means he can fade away from her attacks until its safe to zoom back to the ledge with his recovery, he can go alot deeper than shiek can as well as stay offstage longer. Pit is also one of the few characters who can actually punish Shiek efficiently offstage (especially because of how safe his dair is offstage). If sheik whiffs an attack e.g bouncing fish while going in for a kill, pit can afford to use a jump or fast fall to punish it without worrying about making it back to the ledge. Alot of characters may be able to punish sheik offstage for whiffing something alot harder but unlike pit they may not be able to make it back to the ledge afterwards.

Combo / Traps: Another thing Shiek may struggle with against pit is that he is arguably harder for her to combo and juggle than a majority of the cast because of his floatiness and multiple jumps. Often I find myself able to just jump out of her combos, normally losing your jump against shiek is a dangerous situation but Pit has spares. Another thing to note is that pit's nair is frame 3 so yes it is a usable combo breaker. Even though it is weak it will often interrupt or trade with shiek's attacks during strings when jump isn't fast enough to get away from something. Trading with shieks attack is a much better option than waiting out the full combo. On the other hand with shiek being a fast faller I find her very easy ro combo and juggle.

Kills: Sheik has trouble killing Pit, I often find myself living up to 140+%. Shiek doesn't really have any kill confirms and at higher percents you can sit in shield all day because she doesn't have a kill throw (just make sure to DI the right way and watch out for followups). On the other hand Pit has no trouble killing shiek even getting extremely early kills with rage. (A cool thing I found out the other day is that the upperdash arm when spaced properly, can hit shiek even if it is reflecting needles the hitbox is extended and is really janky). Upperdash arm can generally start killing shiek at 90%. The way I'm most often killed is by Vanish especially by the tricky shieks near the ledge and offstage when I'm recovering. That's probably the only move you should really be wary of.

Frame data: Shiek's frame data is tricky, it is much better than our own and that's probably the only downside in this MU but if you are aware of how fast Shiek is and react accordingly this makes the MU much easier. Just make sure to space moves, e.g. no matter how fast her fair is it can't beat our own if you space it. When shiek is right in your face don't try and challenge her head on, jump away or use nair to break out and reset the neutral where you can try gain the advantage by keeping her at bay again.

The way I say all this may make it sound like Pit completely demolishes shiek but it isn't that simple, you may not always space perfectly or you may use an arrow at the wrong time or whiff a punish or air dodge incorrectly. Shiek has an easy time setting up or punishing these mistakes with her great frame data allowing her to pressure and dictate in matches but in general if you are playing optimally this MU goes in Pit's favour imo probably 60:40.

You and I...we think the same.

 

[Wintropy]

...this MU goes in Pit's favour imo probably 60:40.

60:40 seems a bit much for a character that has great frame data, killer followups, edgeguarding of the gods and a transcendent projectile.

55:45 maybe, more than likely 50:50, but to be honest, I think if that were the case, we'd have figured it out by now.

Great analysis otherwise, it's nice to see somebody optimistic about their character's chances against Sheik!

 

[ReRaze]

60:40 seems a bit much for a character that has great frame data, killer followups, edgeguarding of the gods and a transcendent projectile.

55:45 maybe, more than likely 50:50, but to be honest, I think if that were the case, we'd have figured it out by now.

Great analysis otherwise, it's nice to see somebody optimistic about their character's chances against Sheik!

Eh I feel the only thing she has going for her against us is great frame data. I literally just fought a decent shiek and asked his opinion and he agreed with me. her edgeguarding and needles don't help her as much in this MU as opposed to others. And her followups.....idk maybe I just haven't played a good enough shiek yet. Maybe i'll upload some videos against shiek for critique/analysis?

 

[Wintropy]

Eh I feel the only thing she has going for her against us is great frame data. I literally just fought a decent shiek and asked his opinion and he agreed with me. her edgeguarding and needles don't help her as much in this MU as opposed to others. And her followups.....idk maybe I just haven't played a good enough shiek yet. Maybe i'll upload some videos against shiek for critique/analysis?

Yeah, that'd be a good idea.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you're incorrect in your thesis, I just wonder if it's that...I guess, easy? It'd help if we had input from the Sheik board, heh.

 

[ReRaze]

Yeah, that'd be a good idea.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you're incorrect in your thesis, I just wonder if it's that...I guess, easy? It'd help if we had input from the Sheik board, heh.

Haha and I don't think your incorrect either, its pretty much from my own experience with shiek so I can't really say what you've been through, for all I know the sheiks over at your place might be way better than mine

Yeah input from the shiek boards would be great! Actually I know a pretty well known sheik player there in person, i'll try and ask for his opinion.

 

[Wintropy]

I don't know any good Sheiks, hence why I haven't contributed anything cogent to the discussion. I'm just going by what I've seen of top-level Pit / Sheik matchups.

I know Nairo, in his set with Nietono at Smash 4-Ever 10, chose Pit over Dark Pit because he knew Upperdash would kill Sheik off the top of Delfino. Might be worth considering if you're on a stage with small ceilings, since chasing Sheik off-stage is a recipe for disaster.

Bear in mind Pit is a very punish-heavy character. Sheik's very difficult to punish, due to her good frame data and impetus on getting strings rather than setups, which can make things tricky.

Oh yeah, Nietono played pretty aggressively rather than using needle-camping, so that in itself is worth considering. Campy Sheik is the devil.

This set is another fine example of the Pit / Sheik matchup. Watch how Pink Fresh doesn't get hungry for the kill, he plays it safe and spaces out Sheik with his disjointed jab and shorthop f-air. Sheik is objectively safer than Pit in every way. Pink Fresh recognises that and observes Sheik's movements before he goes for pivot grabs and, if possible, side-b.

EDIT: Fixed some typos, yay~

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I don't know any good Sheiks, hence why I haven't contributed anything cogent to the discussion. I'm just going by what I've seen of top-level Pit / Sheik matchups.

I know Nairo, in his set with Nietono at Smash 4-Ever 10, chose Pit over Dark Pit because he knew Upperdash would kill Sheik off the top of Delfino. Might be worth considering if you're on a stage with small ceilings, since chasing Sheik off-stage is a recipe for disaster.

Bear in mind Pit is a very punish-heavy character. Sheik's very difficult to punish, due to her good frame data and impetus on getting strings rather than setups, which can make things tricky.

Oh yeah, Nietono played pretty aggressively rather than using needle-camping, so that in itself is worth considering. Campy Sheik is the devil.

This set is another fine example of the Pit / Sheik matchup. Watch how Pink Fresh doesn't get hungry for the kill, he plays it safe and spaces out Sheik with his disjointed and jab shorthop f-air. Sheik is objectively safer than Pit in every way. Pink Fresh recognises that and observes Sheik's movements before he goes for pivot grabs and, if possible, side-b.

Don't forget Nairo vs Vinnie(also a Pit vs Shiek thing)

 

[Wintropy]

Re: Pit vs Sheik:

Watch.

Behold.

Incidentally, this is a classic.

 

[xfateful]

Hi, I'm new to the forums but I've been a long time lurker. Since people have been posting videos of Pit vs. Sheik to get an idea of the Pit / Sheik matchup, I thought you guys might appreciate a pretty recent match that not many people know of.

Here's a video of Earth vs. Rain in the Umebura F.A.T. a week ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rliqr6-_ZuM

I personally think the matchup is pretty even. It really boils down to the fact that if both the Pit and Sheik player is aware of the opponent's kill setups and options, Pit can kill much easier than Sheik can. And in stock matches, taking the stock is the most vital part, not building damage on the opponent quickly/safely.

Plus, amazing Pit players like Earth and Pink Fresh have shown us recently that Pit can definitely take down Sheik. But likewise, amazing Sheik players can take down Pit as well. It's easier to be Sheik in this matchup, but if the Pit player is keen of Sheik's kill setups and options, I think the Pit player can win or, at the very least, do very well!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Hi, I'm new to the forums but I've been a long time lurker. Since people have been posting videos of Pit vs. Sheik to get an idea of the Pit / Sheik matchup, I thought you guys might appreciate a pretty recent match that not many people know of.

Here's a video of Earth vs. Rain in the Umebura F.A.T. a week ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rliqr6-_ZuM

I personally think the matchup is pretty even. It really boils down to the fact that if both the Pit and Sheik player is aware of the opponent's kill setups and options, Pit can kill much easier than Sheik can. And in stock matches, taking the stock is the most vital part, not building damage on the opponent quickly/safely.

Plus, amazing Pit players like Earth and Pink Fresh have shown us recently that Pit can definitely take down Sheik. But likewise, amazing Sheik players can take down Pit as well. It's easier to be Sheik in this matchup, but if the Pit player is keen of Sheik's kill setups and options, I think the Pit player can win or, at the very least, do very well!

Pit vs Shiek is always entertaining in tournaments

 

[Wintropy]

Hi, I'm new to the forums but I've been a long time lurker. Since people have been posting videos of Pit vs. Sheik to get an idea of the Pit / Sheik matchup, I thought you guys might appreciate a pretty recent match that not many people know of.

Here's a video of Earth vs. Rain in the Umebura F.A.T. a week ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rliqr6-_ZuM

I personally think the matchup is pretty even. It really boils down to the fact that if both the Pit and Sheik player is aware of the opponent's kill setups and options, Pit can kill much easier than Sheik can. And in stock matches, taking the stock is the most vital part, not building damage on the opponent quickly/safely.

Plus, amazing Pit players like Earth and Pink Fresh have shown us recently that Pit can definitely take down Sheik. But likewise, amazing Sheik players can take down Pit as well. It's easier to be Sheik in this matchup, but if the Pit player is keen of Sheik's kill setups and options, I think the Pit player can win or, at the very least, do very well!

xfateful , you're the real angel here~ ;3

Nah but for reals, thanks for sharing that! I've been trying to find good footage of Earth. Watching him beat Rain of all people is a thing of beauty indeed!

The commentators' reaction when Earth got that grab at the end - magic~

Incidentally, this isn't strictly relevant to the Sheik matchup, but it's a good example of Earth's skill - Earth vs Komokiri. The man is godly.