Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

TMNTSSB4

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About the whole "Orbitars vs Ike" thing, I know that when timed correctly, it will push Ike's Aether away from stageand he will use his downwards attack past the edge and die (like it does with Kirby's), but this is impossible if the Ike spaces himself so that he grabs the edge without coming up over the stage.

@ F Fujiwara , do you know if stopping Ike's side B with Orbitars puts him into free fall (helpless)? I know that a decent distance offstage, it will kill him anyway, but seeing as he won't actually hit anyone, I was wondering if he would still be able to Aether right after it. I am reminded of how, in Brawl, if you were to run offstage and airdodge Ike's Quick Draw, he would swing, miss, then stop in his tracks and fall to his death.
GOS stop both aether and his side-b.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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I enjoy fighting Pit as Bowser, but I don't feel strongly either way in the matchup. The only thing that makes this MU feel any different than other zoners is that Pit seems to have better pokes than us from the ground with his normal moves. And against most, typical opponents like Luigi, Shiek, etc, Bowser prefers to keep the fight grounded. I don't fear Pit in the air. His moves cover precise ranges and are quite weak. It's rare that we have a matchup where we may want to go airborne with Fair, come down with a lagless side B, maybe a whiff punish Dair to escape combos.

Pit is going to have a tough time killing. As far as I know, he can't kill reasonably without an Fsmash. And having a meteor smash is preferable against Bowser's Up B, which is quite easy to intercept. Pit's requires good positioning to earn the spike effect so I'm not going to worry about that as I barrel through him on the way to the ledge. Characters that cannot kill Bowser are in trouble. Bowser's entire moveset is composed of kill moves that deal between 10-24%. They also outrange most characters not wielding a sword. By giving him 150% of rage, he only needs five or six clean hits on his opponent before he's ready to take a stock. Make Bowser desperate for that stock. He'll be baiting you to shield as he comes in for a Side B grab. Or he may try and keep his distance as he tries to punish something with Down B, or Dtilt.

You may be thinking about how well you can combo Bowser, but the truth is, there aren't any characters that are incapable of comboing him. And due to a slow walking speed and jumpsquat, he cannot avoid projectiles with such a large frame. Rest assured that Bowser mains are well practiced at escaping combos and shielding projectile attacks. You should still use combos and projectiles liberally against him. But the moment you overestimate Bowser's disadvantage he will thwomp you.

Bottom Line: Match his mighty range with your disjointed attacks and force the approach using arrows. Keep Bowser offstage as long as you can. His recovery has little potential for mixups and swatting him away so that he must come back again is one of the safest ways of tacking on free damage on this guy. Don't sit in shield hoping to shield grab. We eat shields.
 

Fujiwara

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@ F Fujiwara , do you know if stopping Ike's side B with Orbitars puts him into free fall (helpless)? I know that a decent distance offstage, it will kill him anyway, but seeing as he won't actually hit anyone, I was wondering if he would still be able to Aether right after it. I am reminded of how, in Brawl, if you were to run offstage and airdodge Ike's Quick Draw, he would swing, miss, then stop in his tracks and fall to his death.
Yes, sort of. He has a cooldown for 2-3 secs as far as I can tell. Most of the time it's enough to kill him.
I don't know if he could Aether right after that. I'll check it out soon.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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In regards to Rosalina, she's one of the few fighters where Pit and Dark Pit actually have differences. In this case, Luma containment.

Pit's Upperdash Arm can only send the Luma flying vertically, but Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm delivers more horizontal knockback, which can send the Luma into an abyss more easily.

In other words, Dark Pit can handle Rosalina better than Pit, simply because he can contain the Luma better.
 

Kofeezy

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In regards to Rosalina, she's one of the few fighters where Pit and Dark Pit actually have differences. In this case, Luma containment.

Pit's Upperdash Arm can only send the Luma flying vertically, but Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm delivers more horizontal knockback, which can send the Luma into an abyss more easily.

In other words, Dark Pit can handle Rosalina better than Pit, simply because he can contain the Luma better.
I figured that was the case, however I prefer to use Pit as the arrows help while Rosa's offstage (most Rosa players I know will fight back while recovering) and the tipper on the f-tilt is a really good spacing tool to get Luma out of there. What do you think the matchup spread is for both Pit and Dark Pit in regards to Rosalina?
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I figured that was the case, however I prefer to use Pit as the arrows help while Rosa's offstage (most Rosa players I know will fight back while recovering) and the tipper on the f-tilt is a really good spacing tool to get Luma out of there. What do you think the matchup spread is for both Pit and Dark Pit in regards to Rosalina?
Against Dark Pit, it's mostly even; against Pit, Rosalina has a small advantage. This does not change with customs.

Of course, the last time these results were updated at Rosalina's sub-forum was 7/26.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Against Dark Pit, it's mostly even; against Pit, Rosalina has a small advantage. This does not change with customs.

Of course, the last time these results were updated at Rosalina's sub-forum was 7/26.
That's a very long time.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Looks like the Mario Gang will be talked about first. We'll start it off like this for each character.
:4mario:(50/50)Both
:4dk:
:4luigi:(50/50)Both(for now)
:4bowser:(55/45)Both
:4peach:
:4drmario:(60:40)Both
:4yoshi:
:4diddy:
:4wario2:
:4bowserjr:
:rosalina:(45:55):4pit:(55:45):4darkpit:
Everyday a different character, but a whole week for each group. When(if)we go through all of them, I guess we can repeat the method.

Edit: For bigger groups like the Mario Bros, they'll have about 2-3 days a character(might have Mario and Dr.Mario share days, aswell as Pit/Dark Pit, Link/Toon Link, and Marth/John LuCena/Red Marth.
Starts 12am pacific for those who stay up that long.

P.S. @Nairo man, show love to Pit.
 

ReRaze

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Against Dark Pit, it's mostly even; against Pit, Rosalina has a small advantage. This does not change with customs.

Of course, the last time these results were updated at Rosalina's sub-forum was 7/26.
Pit definitely goes even with rosa too imo. The upperdash arm being able to kill sub 100% anywhere on stage (of course, rage, di, stage ceiling etc helps) is very helpful, also idk the arms are wierd I often net kills with either Luma making the hitbox linger and hit rosa or straight up bypass luma altogether and hit rosa any idea why this happens? is this something to do with luma or the arms? Oh, also Pit can kinda force rosa to approach (or spam down b) using full hop arrows angled downwards getting past luma. Rosa can't punish that from my experience.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Pit definitely goes even with rosa too imo. The upperdash arm being able to kill sub 100% anywhere on stage (of course, rage, di, stage ceiling etc helps) is very helpful, also idk the arms are wierd I often net kills with either Luma making the hitbox linger and hit rosa or straight up bypass luma altogether and hit rosa any idea why this happens? is this something to do with luma or the arms? Oh, also Pit can kinda force rosa to approach (or spam down b) using full hop arrows angled downwards getting past luma. Rosa can't punish that from my experience.
If possible, be sure to mention this at the Pit match-up thread in Rosalina's sub-forum. Is this without customs?
 

TMNTSSB4

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Pit definitely goes even with rosa too imo. The upperdash arm being able to kill sub 100% anywhere on stage (of course, rage, di, stage ceiling etc helps) is very helpful, also idk the arms are wierd I often net kills with either Luma making the hitbox linger and hit rosa or straight up bypass luma altogether and hit rosa any idea why this happens? is this something to do with luma or the arms? Oh, also Pit can kinda force rosa to approach (or spam down b) using full hop arrows angled downwards getting past luma. Rosa can't punish that from my experience.
Yeah until there's most likely another MU thread with a person with bo school or job, we got this...but anyways, after playing some games with @ Koiba Koiba , I did WAY better with Pit than Dark Pit.

If possible, be sure to mention this at the Pit match-up thread in Rosalina's sub-forum. Is this without customs?
I think it's only default.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I think it's only default.
I see. I only asked, because of the mentioning of Guardian Orbitars. It can't reflect the standard Star Bits and Luma Warp, but it can reflect Floaty Star Bit Shooting Star Bit, and Luma Shot.

And if you're curious, the reason why I separated the Pit and Dark Pit discussions at Rosalina's sub-forum is all due to some moveset differences that could alter the outcome of the match-up. For an example, Upperdash Arm's knockback is vertical, while Electroshock Arm's knockback is more horizontal.
 

TMNTSSB4

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I see. I only asked, because of the mentioning of Guardian Orbitars. It can't reflect the standard Star Bits and Luma Warp, but it can reflect Floaty Star Bit Shooting Star Bit, and Luma Shot.

And if you're curious, the reason why I separated the Pit and Dark Pit discussions at Rosalina's sub-forum is all due to some moveset differences that could alter the outcome of the match-up. For an example, Upperdash Arm's knockback is vertical, while Electroshock Arm's knockback is more horizontal.
I expected the Arms to be a reason why they're separated.

Update: The Kongs Donkey and Diddy get their time to shine now

:4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk::4dk:........:4diddy:
 
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ReRaze

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If possible, be sure to mention this at the Pit match-up thread in Rosalina's sub-forum. Is this without customs?
Yeah I could do that I guess, Also yeah without customs.

I see. I only asked, because of the mentioning of Guardian Orbitars. It can't reflect the standard Star Bits and Luma Warp, but it can reflect Floaty Star Bit Shooting Star Bit, and Luma Shot.

And if you're curious, the reason why I separated the Pit and Dark Pit discussions at Rosalina's sub-forum is all due to some moveset differences that could alter the outcome of the match-up. For an example, Upperdash Arm's knockback is vertical, while Electroshock Arm's knockback is more horizontal.
Would the orbitars push out luma if luma is warped inside them?
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Would the orbitars push out luma if luma is warped inside them?
Good question. If the Luma was to hit Pit directly, I would think that that would render Guardian Orbitars ineffective, but that would have to be investigated further.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Good question. If the Luma was to hit Pit directly, I would think that that would render Guardian Orbitars ineffective, but that would have to be investigated further.
Even though it's the Kong's time, I'll let this one continue since I play Rosalina(not bias in this situation). Might try to get @LancerStaff to test this out after his break since I'm busy gaming wise for the month(except using my 3DS).
 

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Hard to place a ratio on DK because I haven't really played much of the MU since he got buffed but I can say that Both Angels can combo him and space him out decently well. Also the fact that he's one giant walking hitbox doesn't help DK's case either.
However since the Angels are kinda light that Cargo UpThrow -> UpAir DK has (along with like every smash attack) would probably kill them pretty early. Also trying to spike or gimp DK is a fool's dream but DK would gladly dunk your face to the ground if given the opportunity. I'd assume it's pretty even.
 
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Wintropy

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So thanks to based @Shaya, I am now the owner of the thread~

I'm gonna be doing a big overhaul of the structure here, so bear with me. I think it'd be best if we started over, since we didn't really get much discussion going in the first few weeks and we need to figure out where to go from here.

Paging @ Koiba Koiba , @ Final-Fortress Final-Fortress , @LancerStaff and @ ReRaze ReRaze ~
 
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Wintropy

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OKAY IN THE MEANTIME (trust me I'm doing stuff in the background right now), LET'S GO WITH THE COMMUNITY VOTING!

I think the new system we're going to use is going to be a community-voted system, i.e. we will discuss briefly which matchup to discuss and then go from there. To speed things along, I propose we discuss up to three matchups at a time (the number remains absolutely flexible). As per @Tito Maas's suggestion, it may be good to keep discussion going until we come to a communal consensus that it's time to move on.

I think this is gonna be an informal process, so if you feel there's a character(s) that's high-priority, mention it and we can take it from there. To keep things on track and running efficiently, just suggest the next character(s) when you've finished with your matchup feedback.

Just to clarify, does anybody have any preference on the matchup score format? In other words, would you prefer a system based on a ratio system:

50:50
55:45, etc

Or a system based on positive and negative numbers:

+ 1
- 1, etc

Feedback helps, guys! Let's go!

In the meantime, I suggest the following three to be our first matchups:

:4sheik: :4zss: :4pikachu:
 

Routa

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So is +1 soft counter, +2 counter and +3 hard counter? Just asking to be sure...

But my vote goes to ratio system 'cause I am more familiar with it, but then again I don't mind using the other one.
 

Wintropy

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So is +1 soft counter, +2 counter and +3 hard counter? Just asking to be sure...

But my vote goes to ratio system 'cause I am more familiar with it, but then again I don't mind using the other one.
Kinda, yeah. The equivalent between systems is essentially:

80:20 / + 3
70:30 / + 2
60:40 / + 1

That's a very abstract comparison, but I think the point is clear.
 

NarukamiSSB

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Personally, I'd like to discus :4rob: and :4diddy: because one of them is up-in-your-face (Diddy) and the other is using projectiles and then running in your face and then running away (R.O.B.).
 

Wintropy

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Okay, everybody! We're gonna start off the new thread by discussing:

:4sheik: SHEIK :4sheik:

:4pikachu: PIKACHU :4pikachu:

:4zss:
ZERO SUIT SAMUS :4zss:

Discussion begins now!
 

Final-Fortress

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Okay, everybody! We're gonna start off the new thread by discussing:

:4sheik: SHEIK :4sheik:

:4pikachu: PIKACHU :4pikachu:

:4zss:
ZERO SUIT SAMUS :4zss:

Discussion begins now!

Right! So, do you any of you have any tips as to how to fight these guys? What are your opinions on the matchups? I, personally always have trouble fighting them. (I'm sorry I'm not good at this but I'm honestly trying to get the discussion going ;-; )
 
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Danimal197

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Hello, came here from the sheik boards. Living until you have max rage is your best friend as pit. That and side b is actually a good kill move if you can get a read on sheik's defensive options. Honestly the mu is still awful for pit because sheik's frame data is just that much better. @Zult
 

Wintropy

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Hello, came here from the sheik boards. Living until you have max rage is your best friend as pit. That and side b is actually a good kill move if you can get a read on sheik's defensive options. Honestly the mu is still awful for pit because sheik's frame data is just that much better. @Zult
Thanks for the feedback, but can you elaborate? It'd help if you explained why you think the MU is awful beyond just frame data, if that's okay.

I don't know any very good Sheik or Pikachu players so I can't grind out the matchup for reference, but I'm gonna play a ZSS main I know and see if I can get some insights from it. I'll post my opinion sometime tonight.

EDIT: Scratch that, it'll be tomorrow before I can get any concrete data together. I'll see what I can do.
 
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sandslash

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As a pika main I like this matchup. First like someone stated with sheik change up recovery because Pikachu has such a good offstage game. With an overly aggressive opponent especially a Pikachu once they combo you and some space is made they will usually try to rush you down again right away so throwing out your side b option is a good way to catch them off guard and at bay. Neutral must be extremely important to keep spacing against a Pikachu so you don't get pushed off stage. I know when I play all I'm doing is trying to get the opponent off stage to use it to my advantage. Watch when pika is in the air, if your getting caught with pika's forward air learn to be patient block the move and grab right after. Maybe the second most important thing to deal with is thunder jolt. All I can say is learn to perfect shield the move and learn which moves will destroy the t jolt and still have a longer hit box so when I pika throws it out and then rushes right behind it you don't just block and get grabbed but instead hit the opponent and keep them from rushing you down.
 

NeoSeth

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ZSS main here, I think both the Pit and Dark Pit match-ups are theoretically in ZSS's favor. However, I don't think it would be worse than 60-40 for either of them. Both characters are at a good weight/size for dying early to Uair-Boost kick combos, and ZSS has a mobility advantage. Your aerials are pretty good against ours, which isn't super common in our match-ups, so that's good. Your recovery is also easily challengable with a flip-kick or something. At the same time, our recovery can be messed with by your arrows, especially the tether recovery by Pit. If Pit arcs an arrow downward when we're trying to make a long tether recovery, that could EASILY be the end of a stock. Your side B is also pretty good against us (With either character), but if ZSS sees it coming the punish could be huge.

Hope that helps; sorry I couldn't be more concrete, but I do not have a lot of experience with high-level Pits. Just thought I'd offer some thoughts to get the discussion going!
 

TMNTSSB4

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ZSS main here, I think both the Pit and Dark Pit match-ups are theoretically in ZSS's favor. However, I don't think it would be worse than 60-40 for either of them. Both characters are at a good weight/size for dying early to Uair-Boost kick combos, and ZSS has a mobility advantage. Your aerials are pretty good against ours, which isn't super common in our match-ups, so that's good. Your recovery is also easily challengable with a flip-kick or something. At the same time, our recovery can be messed with by your arrows, especially the tether recovery by Pit. If Pit arcs an arrow downward when we're trying to make a long tether recovery, that could EASILY be the end of a stock. Your side B is also pretty good against us (With either character), but if ZSS sees it coming the punish could be huge.

Hope that helps; sorry I couldn't be more concrete, but I do not have a lot of experience with high-level Pits. Just thought I'd offer some thoughts to get the discussion going!
So if Pit uses his arrows on ZSS or has the advantage against her, would that make it even in a way? Like how Pit has to handle Shiek.
 
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