Banning stages is just dumb ~*Official rant*~

[Dogysamich]

Ok,

"I'm tired of people trying to give the game a chance in the competitive scene"

Play "whats in the game" --laugh--
So if im dumb enough to enter MvC2 today, i should argue all night long that 3 cables should be allowed?

I mean that's what i just read "use what's in the game to your advantage" --walks off laughing--

-a bunch of posts irrelevant to my following statement-

OMG IS THAT ONE OF MANKOSUKI'S LOST SIGS! YAYHUZZ!!

 

[Tinkerer]

Play "whats in the game" --laugh--
So if im dumb enough to enter MvC2 today, i should argue all night long that 3 cables should be allowed?

I mean that's what i just read "use what's in the game to your advantage" --walks off laughing--



OMG IS THAT ONE OF MANKOSUKI'S LOST SIGS! YAYHUZZ!!

Are you a computer or something?

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

I always felt that the true skill of SSB is to be able to adapt and take advantage of the random crap that goes on in a regular match. If they wanted to play a game where the randomness is minimal and the matches are 1v1, then play a regular fighting game like SF or Tekken. SSB is more of a fighting party game.

But that's just my thoughts on it.

 

[Cinder]

SSB is more of a fighting party game.

Tell that to the massive population of players that play it for money...

@The Kraken: Spear Pillar...Palkia...I need not say more...

Oh, and did you actually say that Mario Kart's banned? Last I heard, it was a counterpick...

 

[Gill]

The part about this **** that ticks me off so bad is WHY DO YOU CARE!? Nobody is forcing you to play by tournament rules, its your game, run your own tournament with your own rules. With complaints, its ALWAYS, from what I've seen, the casual player complaining about tournament rules, NEVER the other way around.

If somebody drops a line like "This was how the game was meant to be played", I'm sticking my head in the oven.

 

[Tinkerer]

Tell that to the massive population of players that play it for money...
.

Err, there are definitely more casual players than professional players

 

[Cinder]

If somebody drops a line like "This was how the game was meant to be played", I'm sticking my head in the oven.

Make room for me plz...

Err, there are definitely more casual players than professional players

Did I say otherwise? I may have misworded, but just because I use the word "massive" doesn't mean I think there are more...you can't deny that there are a lot of professional players, especially here (or at least there used to be <_<)...it's just that they're outnumbered...

 

[B. Rock]

The part about this **** that ticks me off so bad is WHY DO YOU CARE!? Nobody is forcing you to play by tournament rules, its your game, run your own tournament with your own rules. With complaints, its ALWAYS, from what I've seen, the casual player complaining about tournament rules, NEVER the other way around.

Well, if you oppose the rules you might not have to host your own tournies. Plus, we're on a discussion forum. Not much else to do except debate, flame and post OWN3D pics.

If somebody drops a line like "This was how the game was meant to be played", I'm sticking my head in the oven.

Honestly, it is how the game was meant to be played. I mean, if the devs paid any attention to the tourney scene, alot of stuff would be and not be here. The loss of techs from Melee and the addition of tripping says much. At times, it seems like Smash Bros. is just a deep party game. Then again, Pokemon seems like a child's game at first glance but at core it's a deep strategy game.

But on a seperate note, just because that's the way it's meant doesn't mean it's ok. I mean, I play pretty casually for the most part and I'd be lying if I said that in a more controlled environment all stuff should be allowed. Nothing sucks more than losing because your buddy beat Wario's challenge and got a Starman while you healed 10%, you got hit at the right angle in the fight club at 134% while he survived at 232%. Or Final Smashes in general. I actually like items and I'm getting sick of those.

 

[Ikural]

Honestly, it is how the game was meant to be played.

No, it's how the game was MADE. Not how it was made to be played. If you argue it's in the game, so then we should use it, so is the option to turn things off... See? Why the Hell do you think you can ban stages? It's because it's made to be played with turning on and off whatever you feel is fair. And guess what, that's what we've done.

We've adapted what we've been given into a competetive scene.

Like many others have said, if you want all levels on, then host your own tournament. Because really, fighting for this you're greatly outnumbered, you'll probably get flammed a lot, and you're making yourself look somewhat arrogant.

Just turn whatever levels you want on, and be on your way. If you're not here to become competetive, then I think you shouldn't be here at all, personal oppinion. So have a good day, and let the competetive people play thier way, and you guys can play your own.

Also, the only thing you should have to adapt to is levels that don't kick the sh*t out of you when you're trying to have a GOOD match. That, and facing better and better opponents, and learning to fight against them.

 

[B. Rock]

No, it's how the game was MADE. Not how it was made to be played. If you argue it's in the game, so then we should use it, so is the option to turn things off... See? Why the Hell do you think you can ban stages? It's because it's made to be played with turning on and off whatever you feel is fair. And guess what, that's what we've done.

We've adapted what we've been given into a competetive scene.

Like many others have said, if you want all levels on, then host your own tournament. Because really, fighting for this you're greatly outnumbered, you'll probably get flammed a lot, and you're making yourself look somewhat arrogant.

Just turn whatever levels you want on, and be on your way. If you're not here to become competetive, then I think you shouldn't be here at all, personal oppinion. So have a good day, and let the competetive people play thier way, and you guys can play your own.

Also, the only thing you should have to adapt to is levels that don't kick the sh*t out of you when you're trying to have a GOOD match. That, and facing better and better opponents, and learning to fight against them.

Only counterpoint I got from this post is that you didn't read mine.

 

[Ikural]

Only counterpoint I got from this post is that you didn't read mine.

No, I deffinantly read your post. I was commenting on that sentance and it was aimed more towards the creator of this thread and such. That comment was just the one I chose to quote.

 

[Junpappy]

There are actually people that agree that banning stages is "just dumb"? ROOOFL!!!!

 

[The Question]

My opinion on some things I've read today:

Stages that are completely random should definitely be banned. No one wants to lose cash because of something they had no control of.

One word: casino.

There are actually people that agree that banning stages is "just dumb"? ROOOFL!!!!

Well, I've been wrong before, but I didn't think I'd be wrong when I disagreed with someone who said that this board was full of elitists. SImilarly, even on my first day here I am starting to notice the flippant remarks like "Yuh, thats wut I thot. N00b3r." My fellow Americans, it is amazing how you can become a pro after eight or nine days. I'm not saying I'm a pro, either. I can take a beating with the best of them, and I waltzed into GameStop and got this game the day it came out.

But on a seperate note, just because that's the way it's meant doesn't mean it's ok. I mean, I play pretty casually for the most part and I'd be lying if I said that in a more controlled environment all stuff should be allowed. Nothing sucks more than losing because your buddy beat Wario's challenge and got a Starman while you healed 10%, you got hit at the right angle in the fight club at 134% while he survived at 232%. Or Final Smashes in general. I actually like items and I'm getting sick of those.

I digress, though. This guy sums up my opinion. Especially about Final Smashes; I haven't even seen all of them, and already I'm having second thoughts about playing against someone who uses Ike.

 

[OddCrow]

Go form your own tournament, with all stages on, see who shows up, really, do it.

The point of having rules in tournaments is to level the playing field. No one wants to lose because of something COMPLETELY NOT their fault.
Like on Wario Ware, I was trying to recover and it switched to the "don't move" minigame, I got trapped OFF the f***ing screen, is that fair? no, on spear pillar I was trying to recover with falco's forward B, stage flipped, and I died, my fault? No, so because I can't predict the future it means the other player is better than me? no

 

[Neoteric]

My opinion on some things I've read today:


One word: casino.


Well, I've been wrong before, but I didn't think I'd be wrong when I disagreed with someone who said that this board was full of elitists. SImilarly, even on my first day here I am starting to notice the flippant remarks like "Yuh, thats wut I thot. N00b3r." My fellow Americans, it is amazing how you can become a pro after eight or nine days. I'm not saying I'm a pro, either. I can take a beating with the best of them, and I waltzed into GameStop and got this game the day it came out.


I digress, though. This guy sums up my opinion. Especially about Final Smashes; I haven't even seen all of them, and already I'm having second thoughts about playing against someone who uses Ike.

what? a board focused on competitive gameplay full of elitists?

 

[FFSamurai]

Too true man

Stage banning I aggree is stupid if used because a stage is "too hard" to someone. But I'd argue that stage banning's good if the tournament is following a theme. Heck, I'd love to play in a tourney where you had nothing but boat-based levels or stages where every platform is a falling block just because that was the theme for it, that just adds spice to an otherwise normal affair. Otherwise yah, people should stop being such wusses, suck it up, and play the stage they're in. Besides, if they loose it's probably not because of the stage they're on anyway.

 

[Talendime]

It's quite simple, if I pay to be in a tournament and I'm more skilled then the other player I don't want a random cannonball to take a stock from me.

Thats why he suggested getting used to the levels as part of skill.
Altering the purpose of games is something that should never be done. That tournament bull**** is utterly ********.

 

[metroid1117]

Stage banning I aggree is stupid if used because a stage is "too hard" to someone.... Otherwise yah, people should stop being such wusses, suck it up, and play the stage they're in. Besides, if they loose it's probably not because of the stage they're on anyway.

The way I see it, stages are banned for two reasons:

1) The stage has obstacles that are overpowered and/or interfere with the course of the match.

Melee stages such as Princess Peach's Castle and Venom were banned because of a large divide in the middle that made camping very effective and gave players unfair advantages the did not work for. Icicle Mountain was banned not because it had obstacles, but just because the stage scrolling severely inhibited the flow of the match. The same was true for Brinstar Depths and Big Blue.

2) The stage heavily favors characters to the point where character choice determines who wins.

A majority of the stages in Melee (Hyrule Temple and Great Bay (the stage with the turtle), for example) were banned because they were circuit in design. This HEAVILY favored Fox - in a 6-8 min match, it's not hard to just shoot a laser and run circles around your opponent for the whole time. Yes, it sounds rather immature of the opponent to do that, but some people play to win and will do so regardless of their method - people WILL exploit the rules if given the chance. Either everyone goes Fox to counter Fox, or the stage is banned. The latter choice was the most obvious decision. Fox is also the reason why walk-off stages were banned - waveshining could just push a player all the way across a stage.

If you don't ban stages, people will exploit the rules in an attempt to win. I don't know about you, but I don't think that losing to someone who beat me by shooting a laser and running away for the entire match is a good experience.

 

[Teeheelulz]

It seems rather fair to say that this thread is less of an debate at this point and more like a team battle of "not all Stages are fair for all characters" and "Randomness should be eliminated from the game" Vs "Suck it up and deal with it" and "Its how its meant to be played"

Frankly, Sakurai didn't Specifically make Brawl for the pros, and they didn't specifically make brawl for the Casual players.
It would be more fair to say that it was made specifically to please both.
odd and random stages thrown in so that, when a bunch of friends are sitting around a TV in their living room playing a rousing game of Brawl, and Halberd's claw comes out of nowhere and snaps someone to their death, everyone can get a good laugh and go on about their game. i know when i first encountered it i laughed my socks off, and i have no qualms with playing hazardous stages every so often among friends.
But on the other hand, they added the ability to turn stages off of random so that when theres a room full of pros, with the smell of competition in the air and money on the line, no one has to endure narrowly dodging a cannonball, getting overwhelmed by a lava wave just because their opponent was already by the safety tube, or trying to get back when the stage randomly flips every-which way.

It is, for all intents and purposes, the exact same reasoning behind items being banned.

In a competitive situation your job is to fight the enemy, not the stage, and sure, lets pretend we have a stage that offers Marth and advantage over Kirby and the Kirby still wins. Good job Kirby, you are a real trooper for taking the beating in a dis-advantageous stage and coming out on top. Now lets pretend the Kirby lost in that stage, but was more than skilled enough to claim the day on Battlefield or someplace of the like, fact remains that no matter what random occurrence gave Marth the win, he won when the Kirby should have if put on fair ground.

Obviously, something as obscure as personal preference in stages must be overlooked, a stage will not be banned merely because you don't like the slight shift in platform positions compared to this other stage (unless of course you decide to, as was suggested countless times before, Hold your own tournament), but when it comes down to hazards and random events causing ludicrous and unpredictable deaths at no fault of your own, they show nothing but luck, which has no business in a competitive situation.

 

[TacTics]

A *lot* of stages in Brawl are "broken" for tournament play, where broken means they require a significantly different set of skills to play well. The Super Mario stage with the Koopas and Warioware are two good examples of this.

The question is banning really necessary? Or should players be expected to include the skills for those levels in their skillsets?

And the clear and obvious answer is 'no'. Those levels are just stupid as hell for the kind of game tournaments want to focus on.

You can have a tournament for any kind of game. Even ESPN televised Rock Paper Scissors tournaments in the past. The reason we don't see more professional Kick the Can leagues is because some games are more interesting than others. Yes, you could hold a tournament to see who is the best at weird stages, but those stages are much less controlled, and there would be much more variance in who wins. It's the same reason people on these boards don't play with items, because they introduce quite a bit of uncertainty to the game completely outside the control of the players.

Surely, those levels are fun for casual play (sometimes), but they can also be very frustrating to players. Players who put every waking moment into working on their technique can be defeated because a Smash Ball appeared on top of the opponent one stock and an explosive capsule fell in front of your character when you shot a fireball.

The take home message:
Banning stages allows you to control what kind of game you play and there's no reason it shouldn't play an important part in tournament play.

 

[-sonny-]

Ok,

I'm kind of tired of hearing people say things like "we need to ban this stage because it isn't fair".
I think that if you go to a tournament or play in one online, part of you being a good brawl player will be adapting to the stages. If you have to jump a lot on rumble falls, then use that to your advantage! I don't see why you try and control so much of the game and set it up as you like to play. I understand not playing with items, but I just don't like items. If you are playing the game for money or for some free online tournament, you shouldn't say, "Let's not pick this stage because it isn't fair."

And before we get to into brawl, I think that smash players should just get over banning a stage. If it is in the game, you should learn to deal with it..

So, would you like to lose a $100 dollar tournament match because you get shot by a random cannonball in the background?

I hope that helps you to understand. I have no problem with playing on any stage in casuals, but for tourney play, using gimmicky stages just makes no sense to me.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Don't try to bring 'It's your fault if the stage is random' into this. Is it fair if, even if you're used to Warioware, you both get the minigame right, but your opponent gets invincibilty and you get a mushroom, making you an easier target? Is if fair if you're playing DeDeDe on Bridge of Eldin / Flatzone 2 and he chainthrows you off the screen? Is it fair if Fox gets one stock ahead and runs away on New pork city or Hyrule Temple the whole match? Is that really the players fault?

 

[g5otaku]

I wish everyone would stop complaining and just use FD and only FD for tourneys

 

[Lovage 805]

When there's serious money on the line, stupid random or unfair stage **** becomes a bit more than annoyance.

 

[Brawler Lime]

Not trying to stereotype or anything, but look at the post counts of the people arguing that stages shouldn't be banned.

You, sir, are a ******.
Having minimal posts has nothing to do with actual smash playing. If you think that we are n00bs coz we dont spend 25 hours a day on this website flaming and banning, its a stupis assumption and should be completely disregarded. I am not someone who posts very often on this site, but i play smash nearly every day, and can play a lot better than some of the people with 1,000s of posts. I know people who are on this site, in REAL LIFE, not online, and i can own them , so shut your face an stop being such a smarmy little crapstick.

 

[Rebel581]

I wish everyone would stop complaining and just use FD and only FD for tourneys

Oh PLEASE no. That would bore the **** out of me. I like platforms...

You, sir, are a ******.
Having minimal posts has nothing to do with actual smash playing. If you think that we are n00bs coz we dont spend 25 hours a day on this website flaming and banning, its a stupis assumption and should be completely disregarded. I am not someone who posts very often on this site, but i play smash nearly every day, and can play a lot better than some of the people with 1,000s of posts. I know people who are on this site, in REAL LIFE, not online, and i can own them , so shut your face an stop being such a smarmy little crapstick.

Do you think certain stages shouldn't be banned? If you think stages should be banned, skip this post. If you think stages shouldn't be banned:

1. Don't call other people *******. If you saw the number of people with 9 posts act like they know Roy should be higher on the tier list, you'd start to stereotype too. I don't care if it doesn't apply to all people, but it does apply to a majority.

2. Not banning some stages is crap. Have you played on some of the stages? We're playing to see who's better at the game (and for money, but I'm playing more for the former). I don't want New Pork City to stop me from beating a Fox because it was impossible for me to catch up with him unless I chose a specific character. If I'm playing Ike, it would be impossible. So I should be punished and play with a character I'm not as good with? Plus, New Pork City sucks ***. And as much as I like the music and art design of the Pirate Ship, so does it. Flat Zone 2 just plain *** sucks and I wouldn't go to any tournament with that on (neither would a ton of people). Spear Pillar? I already have enough trouble with directions in this game due to how much I'm mashing right and then left to turn around and do a bair. I don't need that to be reversed. I also don't need random beams of light from Dialga/Palkia killing me. My opponent's already trying to do that. I don't need more people helping.

3. I don't have a 3. So I'm just going to say <3 Song of Storms.

EDIT: 4. I have a 3 now, so now it's a 4 (since I actually spent two minutes to read two pages of the topic). teh undrdog is right. Ban hammers shouldn't be thrown so quickly. But some stages should automatically be banned. Three stages I believe need testing before getting the ban hammer (or counterpick hammer), are Halberd, Castle Siege, and Delfino Plaza.

The rest can go rot in hell for all I care.

 

[The Question]

what? a board focused on competitive gameplay full of elitists?

There's a way you can get your point across without talking down to someone and making personal attacks. If someone is wrong, they're wrong. It's not a character flaw.

 

[Wiseguy]

Guys, guys, guys. Even if a stage is "banned," technicallly, by the back room for tournaments there are are ways around it.

1) If you AND your opponent agree to playing on a banned stage like Big Blue you can still use it according to official tourney rules.

2) You and your friends can hold your own tourney with your own rules should you so desire. Go nuts. Have a coin match tournament with bumpers and clock set to very high where the only legal stage is Norfair. (Heck, I might even go to that one...)

 

[Mercury]

If you are playing the game for money or for some free online tournament, you shouldn't say, "Let's not pick this stage because it isn't fair."

that makes loads of sense.

 

[pyro363]

I agree. whats the fun of going to a tournament and you only do one or two stages. With using all the stages at least you can have a differant variety and it can show if you are any good at brawl.

 

[Sparx401]

Oh yes, winning a microgame and getting invincibility while your opponent gets jack **** shows how good you are in Brawl.

 

[shadydentist]

I agree. whats the fun of going to a tournament and you only do one or two stages. With using all the stages at least you can have a differant variety and it can show if you are any good at brawl.

On the other hand, whats the fun of going to a tournament and watching fox run away on Hyrule Temple for 7 minutes? Theres a balance somewhere. Playing on one or two stages is too extreme, but on the other hand, we need to include as many stages as possible that aren't completely dominated by one strategy.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

2) You and your friends can hold your own tourney with your own rules should you so desire. Go nuts. Have a coin match tournament with bumpers and clock set to very high where the only legal stage is Norfair. (Heck, I might even go to that one...)

Bumper tournament is the new Smash Bros tourney standard.

 

[6footninja]

It's quite simple, if I pay to be in a tournament and I'm more skilled then the other player I don't want a random cannonball to take a stock from me.

exactly.

10char

 

[Sculelos]

Eh, banning stages is smart... my guidelines on if I determine a stage viable for tournaments.

-Size, the stage has to be normal or small, huge stages are bad cause they give fast characters and projectile spammers a unfair advantage

-Edges, the stage must have edges, otherwise it removes some strategy

-Hazards, the stage must not have hazards, same reasoning as items. I think a stage like Norfair could be interesting in a match though but it would probably favor fast characters more.

Those are my 3 basic guidelines. No Hazards, No Walkoff, No Huge/Awkward stages.

 

[legendofme]

If it's a tourny where you didn't pay then sure, use any stage I won't care.

Wins thread. Close immediately..

 

[launchpadmcqak13]

This topic has been argued for years. We need to have mods close it.

Some stages are just dumb luck/too much advantage to one player, play them if you want to have mindless fun.

Some stages are just dumb luck/too much advantage to one player, don't play them if you have money on the line. (Or care enough about the outcome.)


Don't tell people how to play the game.

 

[straight8]

how is it your business if mods close it? what is the point of swf? debates, and viewpoints..

If you care so much about money, then either don't enter a smash tourney, play fox and sonic all the time, or go mow someones lawn.

So much personal attack, goodness!! I wish someone of influence would please look at this. Banning stages in melee was so boring because fd and dl64 got old after a while. I used tyo just go on youtube and scroll and scroll for videos that were played on rainbow cruise, cause those stages are interesting.

Have you played brawl? do you know how awesome it is to get eaten by that fish on summitor that thing on Olimars stage? that would be so fun in a tourney! I'm not being sarcastic or anything.. whenever I get eaten, I just laugh.. brawl is about fun, not about earning money. If you really want to make money, get a job, don't practice brawl for hours..

 

[Ikural]

Brawl is about fun yes, but tournaments ARE about money. Go play those stages at a Smash fest but at a tournament it would piss people off. It would ruin the standards of 'competetive'. Brawl is about fun, but losing money because of something out of your control, my friend, is not fun.

 

[Rokk141]

This topic is hilarious to me because you have people who argue that not a single stage should be banned and Warioware is a "fun" stage next to people who want to ban everything under the sun that's not Final Destination or Battlefield. Someone on the previous page said a stage should be banned because it gives emphasis to fast characters over slow ones. People seem to forget the reason a stage is counterpick. Sure, a stage that puts slower characters at a disadvantage probably shouldn't be neutral, but that doesn't mean it should automatically be banned. Putting your opponent at a potential disadvantage is something that makes a stage a good counterpick stage.

We shouldn't go around swinging the ban hammer at anything that moves; we have to look at each stage individually and see if the advantages it gives to certain characters is moderate, allowing it to be a valid and good counterpick stage, or if it is too extreme, which would be reason for it to be banned. The only stages we can really say for certain is Warioware, New Pork City, and Mario Bros. A lot of stages seem to be on the thin line between a good counterpick stage and a stage that should just be banned.

You can't be extreme on this issue. There is no way you can argue that Warioware belongs in a competitive environment, but if we ban everything, we're going to be left with a rather pitiful five or so stages.