Banning stages is just dumb ~*Official rant*~

[straight8]

This topic is hilarious to me because you have people who argue that not a single stage should be banned and Warioware is a "fun" stage next to people who want to ban everything under the sun that's not Final Destination or Battlefield. Someone on the previous page said a stage should be banned because it gives emphasis to fast characters over slow ones. People seem to forget the reason a stage is counterpick. Sure, a stage that puts slower characters at a disadvantage probably shouldn't be neutral, but that doesn't mean it should automatically be banned. Putting your opponent at a potential disadvantage is something that makes a stage a good counterpick stage.

We shouldn't go around swinging the ban hammer at anything that moves; we have to look at each stage individually and see if the advantages it gives to certain characters is moderate, allowing it to be a valid and good counterpick stage, or if it is too extreme, which would be reason for it to be banned. The only stages we can really say for certain is Warioware, New Pork City, and Mario Bros. A lot of stages seem to be on the thin line between a good counterpick stage and a stage that should just be banned.

You can't be extreme on this issue. There is no way you can argue that Warioware belongs in a competitive environment, but if we ban everything, we're going to be left with a rather pitiful five or so stages.

I f you think it is so unfair, than pick a character that owns on it. And learn how to use multiple characters. Would youo have said someone can't pick a certain character in melee because you would be at a disadvantage? No, because that is dumb, so why would you say that person couldn't pick a stage to put you at a disadvantage? They are the same thing, choosing aspects of the game to manipulate the end result. Unless you wanted to ban choosing peach against falco in melee, and then you would be crazy.


EDIT: and people stop using hte money argument. If you care about money get a job. You are not gonna become a professional brawl player, and even if you did, you could make more money working as a temp. So don't say something so dumb like, "ThATT staGGE is MucH Bad cUZ It Luze me MOneY$$$" .... honestly..

 

[Mann]

I f you think it is so unfair, than pick a character that owns on it. And learn how to use multiple characters. Would youo have said someone can't pick a certain character in melee because you would be at a disadvantage? No, because that is dumb, so why would you say that person couldn't pick a stage to put you at a disadvantage? They are the same thing, choosing aspects of the game to manipulate the end result. Unless you wanted to ban choosing peach against falco in melee, and then you would be crazy.


EDIT: and people stop using hte money argument. If you care about money get a job. You are not gonna become a professional brawl player, and even if you did, you could make more money working as a temp. So don't say something so dumb like, "ThATT staGGE is MucH Bad cUZ It Luze me MOneY$$$" .... honestly..

In your first part, it sounds like you don't understand that people counter pick. Or have more than one match. As for the second part, not a lot of people can get a job. NO ONE said anything about becoming a professional brawl player to earn money. Money is serious business, sir.

 

[SenorPresidente]

brawl is about fun, not about earning money. .

Ok i am just gonna say this and i know its a hard concept for some people to understand. People have fun playing differently then you. Yeah going to a tournament and winning money is nice but another part of it is competition. Some enjoy competition. In this competitions you want the better player with more skill to win. This can't be done in stages like spear pillar. And yes YOU may find it fun but not everyone shares the same kind of fun.

In the dojo, some where in the instruction booklet and i think one of sakurais quote says that brawl is about people playing the way they want.

 

[straight8]

Ok i am just gonna say this and i know its a hard concept for some people to understand. People have fun playing differently then you. Yeah going to a tournament and winning money is nice but another part of it is competition. Some enjoy competition. In this competitions you want the better player with more skill to win. This can't be done in stages like spear pillar. And yes YOU may find it fun but not everyone shares the same kind of fun.

In the dojo, some where in the instruction booklet and i think one of sakurais quote says that brawl is about people playing the way they want.

So.... what does what sakurai says have to do with anything?

It isn't hard to get a job. You need a high school diploma, but that's it. you can even get a job if you have a criminla record, I know (jk...)
But worknig at mcdonalds is not a hard thing to do, and you get free meals.

I like competition, and I would go to a tournament if I could. pay my $10, get beat, have fun.

And only the more skilled player wants the more skilled player to win.

Mann- and I understand counter picking. I'm talking about banning. Like, when you pick random, you'll get summit. That's what the topic is. Banning.

 

[RazeveX]

close plz

Spoiler

Spoiler

10closedthreads

 

[Rokk141]

I f you think it is so unfair, than pick a character that owns on it. And learn how to use multiple characters. Would youo have said someone can't pick a certain character in melee because you would be at a disadvantage? No, because that is dumb, so why would you say that person couldn't pick a stage to put you at a disadvantage? They are the same thing, choosing aspects of the game to manipulate the end result. Unless you wanted to ban choosing peach against falco in melee, and then you would be crazy.


EDIT: and people stop using hte money argument. If you care about money get a job. You are not gonna become a professional brawl player, and even if you did, you could make more money working as a temp. So don't say something so dumb like, "ThATT staGGE is MucH Bad cUZ It Luze me MOneY$$$" .... honestly..

It's not about being at a disadvantage. Being at a disadvantage on a stage is what makes the stage counterpick, which is legal in tournament play. It's a completely unfair, random disadvantage that would lead to Warioware being banned. Both players compete in a mini-game, Player A gets a Starman and Player B gets a small health recovery. Both players are equally matched, Player A gets a KO. That's not fair. That's a completely random element of chance that can decide a match. New Pork City would be banned because a fast character can run around for the duration of the match. That's stupid. You can't not have a time limit because matches have to be done so that the tournament can continue. Mario Bros would be banned because it's completely different than normal play. You may be the best at Mario Bros., but that skill might not translate into normal stages.

 

[Mann]

Mann- and I understand counter picking. I'm talking about banning. Like, when you pick random, you'll get summit. That's what the topic is. Banning.

I apologize assuming and going out a bit then.

For the small organized tournaments that are around me, people discuss what stages that should be banned, and why, etc. During Melee, anyways. I believe most people that run a tournament that involves money, just won't ban a stage because it gives advantages for one character over others. If they do, then it really isn't a fair tournament in the first place. Most of the reasons why there should be some stages that should be banned, have already been discussed.

Like:

Stages that are too big - time advantage with a stock up. Like Hyrule.
Stages that give advantages/disadvantages through randomization - Warioware. FlatZone2.

There will never be an official list. Because it's the people who hold the tournament that should decide what goes, what is allowed, and what is not. Close.

 

[Jellybelly]

Clearly some people have never played for money.

And fun is situational, I assure you that getting eaten by the fish on the summit stage when theres 1000 dollars at stake is not "fun."

 

[RT]

Let's play a match.

You pick a slow character, and I'll pick Sonic or some other decently fast character. I'll go to Temple because it's not banned. Let me take just one stock off. What's that? I took a stock off? Now I'm going to run around the whole stage, and we'll see if you can catch up to me. Since whoever has the most stock after time runs out, it looks like I'm guaranteed to win, unless you somehow manage to catch me and KO me. But since I'll be running around the stage, I doubt it.

Yeah, not so fun and extremely boring, especially when you pay money and get knocked out in the first round of a tournament from such a basic but extremely effective tactic. It doesn't apply to all characters, but for those who do encounter the above scenario, stage bans are done to give both players a more equal chance.

 

[adonnis85]

Think of Princess Peach's castle in melee, with the Bullet Bill drilling into the roof and then exploding. Some people think it is an unfair part of the stage, and dub it a "banned" stage, all because they can't manage the god **** thing.

that particular stage was banned because you could be repeatedly shined against the center of the castle by fox FOREVER or infinitely drill shined as any character that didn't fall from the shine and it would all lead into an upsmash and instant death... played M2K at a random central jersey friendly and he rammed that point into my head by taking me to 999% on 4 straight lives before killing me and i did 48% total to him as link...

 

[shadydentist]

Straight8, your 'get a job' argument is unpersuasive and incorrect. Nobody plays smash bros. as their primary source of income. However, money is used at a tournament in order to attract the best players and make it worth their while.

The second caveat is that the purpose of a tournament is to see who the best player is. It is therefore safe to assume that the most effective strategies will be utilized by all the players. Thats fine, but on certain stages, the most effective strategy is overwhelmingly dominant.

Seriously, all of these anti-stage ban arguments are not new. Stage bans evolved for a reason.

 

[straight8]

first, everyone who asks some mod to close this thread is dumb. stop asking.

If nobody plays smash as their primary source of income, then why is this non stage banning a big deal? If you lose money, get over it. And getting a job is a legit alternative, and you didn't prove it was a bad point, all you said was it was incorrect. So what if you think it is incorrect? who cares?

Secondly, you don't go to a tournament to see who's the best player, I disagree completely. Then at the big tournaments like fcs, then no noe would go except maybe 5 people who had a shot at winning. Yuo go to have fun and meet people and get better.

I'm going to the same thing that was used against wobbling when it came out. If you are playing a sonic on hyrule or new pork (if you are playing against ics) , don't get killed first(don't get grabbed). People will eventually get so good that they won't be killed by sonic, or they will pick a sonic counter, or they will pick sonic. Or they will lose that match and win the other two.

And also, don't anyone say the word unfair. There is no morality in melee. fair is what you can do in the game with your controller, and no one needs people calling this technique or that strategy unfair. You have no standard of fairness besides a flat stage with platforms.

And all those stage ban arguments have been said 5,000 times on this thread, so don't act like they're new either..

 

[Micahc]

Ok,

I'm kind of tired of hearing people say things like "we need to ban this stage because it isn't fair".
I think that if you go to a tournament or play in one online, part of you being a good brawl player will be adapting to the stages. If you have to jump a lot on rumble falls, then use that to your advantage! I don't see why you try and control so much of the game and set it up as you like to play. I understand not playing with items, but I just don't like items. If you are playing the game for money or for some free online tournament, you shouldn't say, "Let's not pick this stage because it isn't fair."

And before we get to into brawl, I think that smash players should just get over banning a stage. If it is in the game, you should learn to deal with it..

And thus, I have decided that you are a moron.

 

[Ikural]

If nobody plays smash as their primary source of income, then why is this non stage banning a big deal? If you lose money, get over it. And getting a job is a legit alternative, and you didn't prove it was a bad point, all you said was it was incorrect. So what if you think it is incorrect? who cares?

Secondly, you don't go to a tournament to see who's the best player, I disagree completely. Then at the big tournaments like fcs, then no noe would go except maybe 5 people who had a shot at winning. Yuo go to have fun and meet people and get better.

That is incorrect. People attend the tournament to have a good time, yes, but the underlying purpose of the tournament is to show who's the best player. And getting a job is simple, but using it as an arguement in your case is simply an uninformed decision. As was said, no one uses Smash as thier primary source of income, but if you bring $20 to a Smashfest and MM someone, and lose a match that you would have won, because in the middle of your combo you're hit by a cannonball, or have the screen flippe don you, then you just lost a potential $40. And guess what? That $40 could have bought you a new controller, or could have been used to buy a new SD card to save, and the other person won it out of sheer luck. Smash is not gambling, Smash is more like a chess tournament. Everyone utilizes all they know, and thier strategies to outplay thier opponent. NO WHERE in chess does a random cannonball knock your queen off the board. People play it to demonstrate thier skill, and Smash is compareable.

And thus, people ban stages. And alright, I understand your arguement, but people DO ban characters, look at a lot of competetive fighters. And furthermore, if you say stages should be allowed because it's irresponsible or immature to ban them, then why ban items? It's a rhetorical question, I'll answer that, because they transform the game from a competetive fighter to a form-lacking, chaotic game. Stages are the same way; if you don't like items, then Mario Bros. should be banned, look at that. If you do like items, have fun playing with them, but your place on this board, fighting for what you like, is inappropriate, because we will not change. We don't expect you to, but refrain from bringing arguements to us in which the case has been argue endlessly.

And thus, I bring my arguement to a close, but I have one futher request. Please, next time you decide to argue a case, don't act so belligerently towards those who do not agree. People won't agree with you no matter what you think, so don't respond with insults, or put downs, because that is rude, and it simply pins a bad impression on yourself.

Have a good day.

 

[Geist]

Banning stages is definetly not dumb. Nit-picking and complainging that every stage that gives you a hard time should be banned is.
Unfortunately that happens alot, so I'll just assume that you're getting mixed up instead of completetly not knowing what you're talking about.

There are hazards, and adapting to those hazards is what evolves the metagame and in turn creates opportunities for improvement. What banning does is restrict techniques, or hazzards, that at a high calibur level, make improvement and progress impossible. I guess you really have to experience some of the things to understand it. If you have ever played a high level fox on a stage like hyrule, you will agree with banning stages. Adapting or improvment to any point will not make a difference at all, because no matter how much you adapt, it does not make your character a faster runner. Forcing everyone to be able to play as captain falcon is just stupid, and I would much rather see a stage banned.

I don't like seeing stages banned , it's sad to see people abuse them to such an extent that it makes it impossible have a normal match on them, and it permanently takes away game depth and possibilities, but what is done is done for a reason, and not because a few people ran into a bit of trouble on a stage one time.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Winning money makes me happy and I'll be noticed more as a better player. But I don't want to win that by infinatly chainthrowing with DDD on Shadow Moses or running away with Sonic on Hyrule. Yes you get a good laugh about it but thats when your not in a tournament.

I get better from making mistakes in my tournament matches. When I lose, I think to myself on the drive back home "ugh I should have done this instead of that" or "I should have chosen that character!" and if I died because my opponent got a start reward on Wario Ware stage what would I have to say for myself to get better. Nothing. I shouldn't have to pick a character I don't play just so I can't lose the match because of the stage.

There is a difference between earning money and winning money. I like both but winning money feels good and I don't want bad stages to deterorate my chances of winning or giving me a unsatisfied victory.

So you said "get a job and don't rely on brawl"
I like winning money more than Earning money

You also said "I get a good laugh when my guy gets eating by the bulbix on the olimar stage"
I ceritantly wouldn't be laughing If I got eaten and I lost my chances of winning $100 for the first time.

Tell me its not fun to win money.

 

[Fletch]

Original post cannot be serious... you're saying we should allow stages that make tons of characters not viable and allow them to perform infinites with ease?

 

[Rebel581]

This topic is hilarious to me because you have people who argue that not a single stage should be banned and Warioware is a "fun" stage next to people who want to ban everything under the sun that's not Final Destination or Battlefield. Someone on the previous page said a stage should be banned because it gives emphasis to fast characters over slow ones. People seem to forget the reason a stage is counterpick. Sure, a stage that puts slower characters at a disadvantage probably shouldn't be neutral, but that doesn't mean it should automatically be banned. Putting your opponent at a potential disadvantage is something that makes a stage a good counterpick stage.

We shouldn't go around swinging the ban hammer at anything that moves; we have to look at each stage individually and see if the advantages it gives to certain characters is moderate, allowing it to be a valid and good counterpick stage, or if it is too extreme, which would be reason for it to be banned. The only stages we can really say for certain is Warioware, New Pork City, and Mario Bros. A lot of stages seem to be on the thin line between a good counterpick stage and a stage that should just be banned.

You can't be extreme on this issue. There is no way you can argue that Warioware belongs in a competitive environment, but if we ban everything, we're going to be left with a rather pitiful five or so stages.

My god, a guy with 10 posts that I agree with completely and support everything he has said? I'll step back my stereotypes a little bit.

Join Date: Sep 2007. I should start using that instead of post count. Post count sucks.

Either way, this guy's correct. straight8, you're wrong, get over it. I was at a tournament today where almost every stage was on counterpick. Nobody chose anything besides the neutrals. Nobody wants to play on those ****ty stages when we are having a competition. I want to be challenged by my opponent. Not the stage.

 

[Mann]

How many people are actually reading?

Stages that are 'banned' in tournament play are decided by those who are running it. However, what usually leads to the decisions seems to be discussed mainly here. We know that. No one is going to ban a stage just because, people aren't that stupid. Especially if it is dealing with money. That's why I believe this thread should be closed. Title of thread is misleading to what has been talked about.

 

[6footninja]

If it is in the game, you should learn to deal with it..

Items are in the game

 

[Wazzle]

I'm pretty sure that half of the people posting in this thread don't actually play professionally. While I don't think that any stage is broken and unplayable, I also don't think thats it's fair to say that banning is dumb and shouldn't be done. It's the tournament leader's choice what is and what isn't banned, and there are many stages that make it much more difficult for most characters to play well on, regardless of skill level. HOWEVER, for all of you against the whole banning thing, it doesn't mean you can't play on these stages with your friends at home and most people. It's just unfair for a game played over money to be gimped by unfair stage design. I am, however, against the fact that many are banning most stages because of random occurences. Those don't break games, New Pork City does.

 

[Princess Priority]

lawl straight8 is a giant noob

 

[Johnothano]

.... let me share a fun experence with you.

I was playing at a local torny with *gasp* $15 on the line. The prize was store credit to a local family-run vedio game store. All stages were on. I ended up losing in the semi-finals because the super chamera in new pork ctiy appeared RIGHT next to me and pwnt my ***.

Now, did I lose because I was not as good? You tell me. I was a little pissed, but glad because I only lost $15, not $100. That is why stages are banned. Untill this actually happens to you, you can't really understand why stages are banned.

 

[Shackel11]

I don't play professionally, but straight is an IDIOT. Heck, normally I would post an half-*** essay destroying each and every one of your points but they beat me to it. I'll make it short.

Stages should be banned.
Fox vs Ike on Norfair
Sonic/Fox vs ANYONE except another Fox/Sonic on Hyrule
Peach's Castle: Fox vs Bowser
Rainbow Ride: Be Sonic. Run.
Pikmin: DDD chain throw against someone who can be. Get it?
Warioware: Pick ANYONE. Both win minigames, one gets star, other gets big, you are SCREWED.

See what I mean?

 

[notftomearth7]

I agree with you to some extent. I don't agree with banning stages with limited KO points, like The Temple or New Pork. However, I do agree with banning stages that present unfair advantages like Warioware Inc. (Mini-games) and Flat Zone 2 (If you get trapped in between the Liontamers, it's pretty much over)

 

[S2]

I agree with you to some extent. I don't agree with banning stages with limited KO points, like The Temple or New Pork. However, I do agree with banning stages that present unfair advantages like Warioware Inc. (Mini-games) and Flat Zone 2 (If you get trapped in between the Liontamers, it's pretty much over)

The bigger stages are more banned due to infinite stalling potential (due to their loop structure). The fact that they are blatantly unfair when it comes to getting KOed is icing on the cake but not the primary reason (along with the fact that they encourage running out the clock which is bad since tournaments are already time intensive)


Stages are banned for good reasons.
Usually because something about the stage is broken in its design (stalling is usually the key factor here). Other ones (like Original Mario Bros) is basically banned because the focus of that stage isn't fighting each other, its throwing the instant KO turtles/crabs. It's not a minor nuisance, its the focus of the entire level. Combine that with character picks for speed/projectiles and your left with a highly unbalanced level.

Those levels are fun for casual play (although many don't find them fun). But they aren't workable for serious 1v1s.

 

[KyUuKyUu]

If you don't go to tournaments and are a self-proclaimed casual player why are you trying to convince a competitive board "full of elitists" to conform to your views anyway. Just play online with your friends and do w/e you want.