Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[MissingGlitch]

Baynoetta was only realizable because they already started work on her before the ballot started lol

 

[ChaosAngelZone]

So Bayonetta was NOT the end all winner of the poll, she was only the top of at the time realizable picks, while veteran characters easily got more votes. But also "Characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected"

Hm, I wonder who that could be referring to... Keep in mind, this was way before Nintendo and MS became buddies

Could this really be it?

Ooh, this is giving me some hope and making me excited! I'm still keeping my expectations in check, but it definitely does seem to be a good sign. I wish we had some way of knowing officially where characters ranked on the ballot, but the fact that Banjo ranks really high in all the fans polls definitely bodes well.

How well did Banjo do on the Ballot? I recall him doing fairly well.

I keep seeing people say that Banjo did really well on the ballot, but I've never seen any actual evidence of that other than fan polls, so I think that's all we really have to go off of.

 

[AngrySun88]

This might be my bias talking, I think Banjo is more realizable than a Square character since he has Phil Spencer's blessing and Square seems to be difficult to work with in regards to their IPs. I also think he'd be easier to create a moveset (and a Kirby hat) for than Steve.

 

[AugustusB]

EDIT: Something just occurred to me. Phil's original Banjo tweet was shortly after the ballot started. If he was all good with it, how did negotiations fall through with Banjo!?

However looking at his tweet closer, he says : I think it would be cool if Banjo was in the next SSB DLC. We've worked with Nintendo on Rare IP before, no issues.

He never specified if he was for SSB4 DLC or the 'next' game's DLC...

Ladies and Gentlemen....I think we cracked the code!

To add to this, what if Microsoft approached Nintendo during that time to get a DLC character?

Yet, they could not make it work, because they already had their picks ready to go. (See Bayonetta)

Or, Sakurai might have tried and they said: No, we will wait for your NEXT Smash Bros game.

Sakurai has now confirmed that the Ballot was used with Ultimate's development in mind.

*Breaths in...breaths out* This is just speculation, of course. But I am ready to die on that HILL!

 

[ColtonS25]

That column makes it sound like they tried negotiating for characters for Smash 4’s base game (Snake, whoever else) and Sakurai just probably chose out of top characters who hadn’t been talked about/rejected. Her inclusion makes more sense if you think about it like that. Strange that Square Enix was more willing to work with Sakurai, but I guess that’s just how it goes.

It kinda makes me think that characters like Banjo and Simon/Richter (Konami owns Snake as well so it makes sense why they weren’t in) were probably negotiated for previously, but it didn’t work out. Whatever reason, it is possible that companies are more willing to negotiate this time around, especially evidenced by Konami giving us 2 Castlevania characters and a Bomberman assist trophy. Banjo could be helped by this for sure.

 

[Violante]

As it turns out there was another instance where Phil endorsed Banjo, highlighting that he actively wanted to see them back with Nintendo for a special occasion

@MitchTwitrKD Like I've said, I'm happy to have B&K in Smash, would be fun to see them back on Nintendo's platform.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) July 21, 2015

 

[MissingGlitch]

It is possible that companies saw the Wii U on it's way out at the time DLC was being developed for Smash 4. So they didn't see much benefit in having their characters included. Ultimate and the Switch are different. From what Reggie said at the game awards no companies turned them down this time. Meaning those companies see more benefit in having their characters included now.

Microsoft might have turned down the Banjo appearance because the Wii U was going to die soon after.

 

[TheAnvil]

Hey it's me again, some juicy info straight from Sakurai himself dropped today via a translation of that book from a little while back

https://www.resetera.com/threads/sa...velopment-dlc-more-in-his-recent-book.119020/

To copy/paste a bit

Spoiler: Translation List Under The Cut

• He knows some are serious, but he doesn't think characters like Iron Man and Goku will happen. (p27)
• DLC could say shortening the life span of its franchise. For Smash those characters could join in next time. But Smash is also not a title to think about continuation so doing his best every time. (p27)
• He wants Smash to be more casual and see non-competitive tournaments. Smash is a party game. But he also knows he is not the one to plan those. (p31)
• In Smash for days, there was restriction of a time span to offer updates and 3DS had a limited number of times to update. So Wii U version had to do the same. This is why Lucas, Roy, and Ryu released at the same time. (p33)
• If it's a one time purchase type of game, then it's more efficient for the company to start making the next game than keep updating. (p59)
• Updates are normal thing these days, but still they are voluntary service. (p59)
• He always thinks it's important to hear voices from people not speaking up. Real beginners don't speak up. (p61)
• The plan of Smash Ultimate completed December 16th 2015. It's a coincidence, but was the same day of the last Smash for Direct. (p63)
• He is not thinking of doing Smash Ballot again. It was used in Smash Ultimate's development very much. (p63)
• Bayonetta was the first pick among realisable characters. Above her, there were old veterans like Snake and other characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected. (p63)
• He was making the plans for Smash Ultimate during the vacation he got after Smash for DLC was done. (p69)
• He treats character's individuality as its own game itself. All the unique systems certain characters has are all newly built just for him/her. (p69)
• It's already had proven true that joining as a character in Smash has advertising effect. (p99)
• He played through beta version of Zelda BotW to the end in 2 days during the Smash Ultimate development because he needed to know how new Link works before anyone else. (p125)
• He thinks games should not be created based on researched data alone and saying games only born to imitate other games are misfortune. Those data should be used for marketings or managements, not to plan new games. Old data are old. (p133)
• (Speaking of Super Nintendo World) 60 billion yen is enough to make every Smash game up to Ultimate and more with couple ten billion of changes. Not many Japanese games have budgets over 10 billion yen. (p139)
• He wish there were Smash Area in Super Nintendo World. (p139)
• Smash Ultimate's DLC wasn't a thing at the time around Famitsu column vol. 546 January 11th 2018, and it was planned without the developers will. (p165)
• DLC developments in general take time, so by the time of the release, the market will be much smaller than it used to be. DLC business is very risky than people might think. (p165)
• They are not something sell that much so it's difficult to gather staffs. Sometimes better to move on to the next game. (p165)
• He is not fond of the idea of the season pass. Its a little scary to buy without knowing the contents. (p165)
• Omega and Battlefield for every stages take a lot more work than people might think. (p187)
• HAL Laboratory, Inc. is still on the credits list, but not involved in the development anymore. (p188)
• If you think about the completion of the development, bringing back everyone is not something you should do. (p189)
• The team was very careful of leaks at E3 2018. They didn't use printed promotional materials to avoid leaks. "Everyone is here" wasn't known even in Nintendo so the when it happened Nintendo staffs were also screaming. (p190)
• Smash tend to have characters from older series. But just old characters wouldn't make Smash worthy. If there is no new series, then the selection of the characters will be from the old series. (p199)
• People say "why they can't do this easy stuff?" but there is always a reason for that, One correction could cause another bug. (p205)
• The story idea of World of Light was already existed since Smash Brawl. (p208)
• He doesn't follow internets reaction so didn't know all the fan predictions. (p209)
• The idea of the Spirits is kind of the last resort. He is not sure he'll be making another gameplay like the Spirits. (p211)
• There was a plan to include a map like the Spirits to the Adventure Mode in Smash Melee. (p211)
• He said he took a long vacation, but actually he was just taking breaks as the calendar goes. He has a cat so he can't go for a long trip. (p214)
• By the time of the end of March 2019, the online win ratio of every character are very close to each other at the point he almost thinks better not to change anymore. (p216)
• There are metas, so just certain characters were strong at that time is not good enough reason to make them change. (p216)

This point in particular interests me

• Bayonetta was the first pick among realisable characters. Above her, there were old veterans like Snake and other characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected. (p63)

So Bayonetta was NOT the end all winner of the poll, she was only the top of at the time realizable picks, while veteran characters easily got more votes. But also "Characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected"

Hm, I wonder who that could be referring to... Keep in mind, this was way before Nintendo and MS became buddies

Could this really be it?

Bayonetta wasn't a ballot winner. She was decided before it even launched.

 

[AngrySun88]

It is possible that companies saw the Wii U on it's way out at the time DLC was being developed for Smash 4. So they didn't see much benefit in having their characters included. Ultimate and the Switch are different. From what Reggie said at the game awards no companies turned them down this time. Meaning those companies see more benefit in having their characters included now.

Microsoft might have turned down the Banjo appearance because the Wii U was going to die soon after.

This is a very good point. There's no point in adding your character to a game on a dying console. Things are, fortunately, very different now and the Switch is crazy successful.

When you add in Phil Spencer's enthusiasm for Banjo and Sakurai's comments about realizable characters, things are looking very good for our bear and bird.

 

[dlewis53]

Well, that was definitely an interesting read; aside from the bit about Bayonetta that I can't really add anything else to, the only thing I feel I can comment on is the bit about the likes of Goku and Iron Man really not being likely, and to that, I have to say:

THANK YOU!

Seriously, a bit of a pet peeve I have regarding Smash speculation is when people are serious when they suggest those kinds of characters, because, put simply: THEY ARE NOT VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS! SMASH IS A "VIDEO GAME CHARACTER" FIGHTING GAME!

Honestly, while I have nothing against those characters (I actually like Goku), I've always felt that the day that any of those kinds of characters got in would be the day that Smash jumped the shark and lost its identity in the process, so I'm thankful that Sakurai more-or-less shot that idea down.

 

[AugustusB]

I am returning to my old avatar during the pre-release days of Ultimate.

All the chips are on the table. I am batting and pointing to the bleachers.

However, a Microsoft Rep is not guaranteed, but with all these revelations from that recent Famitsu and 'piecing' things together...I would be shocked if a Microsoft Rep was not coming.

Even more so if we do get one and its not Banjo. Phil would have such a backlash I feel. Would he risk such a bad stunt?

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

As it turns out there was another instance where Phil endorsed Banjo, highlighting that he actively wanted to see them back with Nintendo for a special occasion

@MitchTwitrKD Like I've said, I'm happy to have B&K in Smash, would be fun to see them back on Nintendo's platform.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) July 21, 2015

Thank You, I have been looking for this Tweet for a while, For some reason this one didn't gain traction and make the rounds across the internet like the first tweet and the one from last year.

How on earth did you find this Tweet? I felt like I tried looking for it before or seeing if there was articles about it, But found nothing and thought that it was deleted from the Xbox/Phil Spencer Twitter feed.

I have mentioned a couple of times before on this forum that Phil Spencer gave his approval for Banjo-Kazooie in Smash a 2nd time before the 1st and 3rd/last tweet ,But never got a clear answer from anyone or was ignored, Probably for sounding crazy.

Part of me thought that I may have misread it or maybe that a fake account tried to play off as him, But turns out I was right and it's good to see another validation by Phil Spencer himself.

I'm surprised and not sure why it took so long for this to not be mentioned here before.

History of Phil Spencer regarding Banjo-Kazooie joining Super Smash Bros.

Early 2015 1st Tweet: "I think it would be cool if Banjo was in the next SSB DLC, We've worked with Nintendo on Rare IP before, No issues.

Mid - 2015 2nd Tweet: "Like I've said, I'm happy to have B&K in Smash, would be fun to see them back on Nintendo's platform".


2016 Interview: "I know I get questions all the time on would I ever like to see Banjo in Super Smash Bros. And I’m like, ‘Yes, I would do that in a second.’ If we ever had a chance to work with them in the future, I would absolutely do it, And certain people think I’m saying that as some sort of PR answer and I’m, like, why wouldn’t you? Anyway, I’m a big Nintendo fan and I think they’ve been incredibly important for the games industry, they do a great job with younger audiences, and if we ever had a chance to work with them in the future, I would absolutely do it.”

2018 3rd Tweet: (Just a Simple) "Yep"

 

[MissingGlitch]

Banjo is going to revealed like "Now to introduce the true winner of the smash ballot"

 

[Evil Trapezium]

2016 Interview: "I know I get questions all the time on would I ever like to see Banjo in Super Smash Bros. And I’m like, ‘Yes, I would do that in a second.’ If we ever had a chance to work with them in the future, I would absolutely do it, And certain people think I’m saying that as some sort of PR answer and I’m, like, why wouldn’t you? Anyway, I’m a big Nintendo fan and I think they’ve been incredibly important for the games industry, they do a great job with younger audiences, and if we ever had a chance to work with them in the future, I would absolutely do it.”

I'll add the link to the interview of this quote. Just had to search it up to see if this was true: https://gamnesia.nintendoenthusiast...e-banjo-kazooie-in-super-smash-bros-and-mari/

 

[Violante]

Also of note, Phil has said on more than one occasion that Microsoft couldn't sustain their own All-Star Brawler, because the character line-up the company has in their arsenal would never stack up to Smash Bros. In combination with his repeated support for Banjo (and ONLY Banjo), this may suggest he considers Banjo to be a cut above the rest, or believes that B-K as a character are more emblematic of the spirit of Nintendo than of Xbox.

@TheUnsungHero26 I love SSB but for me it works cause it's Nintendo and their incredible IP lineup. I find others less interesting, just me.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) March 1, 2014

@Parodiante @Jr26Ramirez Nice work. Interesting. I've been negative on this in the past. Other than SSB hasn't been huge hit in this space.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) December 1, 2014

@ArinaBorina Other than SSB I've never really found one of these that lived up to the hype of all the characters.

— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) February 8, 2014

 

[CannonStreak]

So with all the things MonkeyDLenny just posted, maybe Banjo-Kazooie were being planned in the early stages, as base or DLC, maybe as DLC? I mean, with the ballot and all, there was the base game, but Sakurai said not to expect many newcomers, if you know what I mean. Still, If DLC started in January for Ultimate, and Banjo-Kazooie did well on the ballot, I don't see why they wouldn't be included in the DLC pass.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

So with all the things MonkeyDLenny just posted, maybe Banjo-Kazooie were being planned in the early stages, as base or DLC, maybe as DLC? I mean, with the ballot and all, there was the base game, but Sakurai said not to expect many newcomers, if you know what I mean. Still, If DLC started in January for Ultimate, and Banjo-Kazooie did well on the ballot, I don't see why they wouldn't be included in the DLC pass.

It would depend on how aware of Banjo’s popularity Nintendo was and how much control Sakurai had in determining the DLC. Is Nintendo as aware of Banjo’s popularity? They should be, but how much Nintendo knows about the fan requests may not align with how much Sakurai knows given his commitment you the franchise. Or maybe Nintendo doesn’t consider them as profitable/viable/whatever. We’re in a real weird place with DLC right now and just absolutely don’t know enough about it since we’ve only got the one character right now and also weird information that implies Nintendo had a heavy hand in things, but just how heavy is still unknown and sakurai’s power at this point is also questionable...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The characters that were popular but got rejected in Smash 4 aside from Konami characters and Microsoft characters was probably Geno (Already had Cloud), Sora (Disney + SE) and probably a couple I can't think of. They wouldn't have to go to Microsoft/Rare for K Rool, so maybe he was just planned for Ultimate already.

Off topic but the fact that the characters he mentioned that aren't video game characters aside from Goku is Iron Man is quite interesting, I always thought Thanos was the more popular MCU pick for Smash that was played for jokes/sometimes being serious.

 

[Noipoi]

Alright laddies, do me a favor.

Can someone gimme a quick runeown of everything we know that could help Banjo? I don’t wanna get my hopes up because disappointment stings, but I also want a reminder that the Bear & Bird have a fighting chance.

 

[GenoFlash]

Alright laddies, do me a favor.

Can someone gimme a quick runeown of everything we know that could help Banjo? I don’t wanna get my hopes up because disappointment stings, but I also want a reminder that the Bear & Bird have a fighting chance.

https://smashboards.com/threads/banjo-kazooie-project-dream.446558/page-473#post-23349084

MonkeyDLenny put together just about everything there is about Banjo's chances.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

https://smashboards.com/threads/banjo-kazooie-project-dream.446558/page-473#post-23349084

MonkeyDLenny put together just about everything there is about Banjo's chances.

Really happy to see people using my post as I intended it! Yeah Noipoi , check that post out.

 

[Noipoi]

https://smashboards.com/threads/banjo-kazooie-project-dream.446558/page-473#post-23349084

MonkeyDLenny put together just about everything there is about Banjo's chances.

Really happy to see people using my post as I intended it! Yeah Noipoi , check that post out.

Thanks lads

A lot of this evidence is debateable. For example, I believe Brave is Erdrick. But a lot of this (particularly the Lootcrate biz) really makes you think.

 

[AngrySun88]

Why does everyone assume that Brave is Erdrick? It could very well be Banjo or someone we're not even expecting.

 

[GenoFlash]

Why does everyone assume that Brave is Erdrick? It could very well be Banjo or someone we're not even expecting.

Brave is the title of Dragon Quest's heroes.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The characters that were popular but got rejected in Smash 4 aside from Konami characters and Microsoft characters was probably Geno (Already had Cloud), Sora (Disney + SE) and probably a couple I can't think of. They wouldn't have to go to Microsoft/Rare for K Rool, so maybe he was just planned for Ultimate already.

Off topic but the fact that the characters he mentioned that aren't video game characters aside from Goku is Iron Man is quite interesting, I always thought Thanos was the more popular MCU pick for Smash that was played for jokes/sometimes being serious.

Thanos? He wasn't even really all that popular in anything outside of the comic fandom until Infinity War released last year. He's exploded in popularity since then because of how big the film was and his place in Fortnite too. Iron Man was the defacto main character of the MCU given how much the entire universe owes to his movie's success and Robert Downey Jr. had made him an icon of our era. Especially if you assume during the ballot era is when Sakurai would have seen so many requests for non video-game characters, Iron Man would have been one of the more popular figures of 2015 I imagine over Thanos especially.

Why does everyone assume that Brave is Erdrick? It could very well be Banjo or someone we're not even expecting.

It comes down to three things really:

1. Some people connect Brave to Yuusha which means hero in Japanese and Yuusha is used to refer to the Dragon Quest heroes and they believe that the codename we found thus signal a Dragon Quest character.
2. Dragon Quest seems like an inevitable pick to some people if Square Enix were to get a second rep in Ultimate, and certainly has a massive reputation that could lead one to believe it would happen, thus they're just preparing for the inveitable.
3. Probably the biggest thing is that we've been seeing leaks about a Dragon Quest character from different individuals for months now, and people naturally suspect that one has to be next if we're hearing so much noise from them (Regardless of credibility, of which not everyone is aware).

 

[TAnimal]

So with Banjo Getting more and more likely, what Vergeben saying there’s Minecraft content, what are the options of those Content(s) Like Mii Costume, Boss, Spirit or even Stage Builder related? Because Stage and Music will undoubtably go to Spiral Mountain & Banjo/Rare Music, Maybe even a Minecraft Music with the Spirit battle and Stage Builder.

 

[Nazyrus]

So with Banjo Getting more and more likely, what Vergeben saying there’s Minecraft content, what are the options of those Content(s) Like Mii Costume, Boss, Spirit or even Stage Builder related? Because Stage and Music will undoubtably go to Spiral Mountain & Banjo/Rare Music, Maybe even a Minecraft Music with the Spirit battle and Stage Builder.

I would just say mii costume.

 

[AngrySun88]

It comes down to three things really:

1. Some people connect Brave to Yuusha which means hero in Japanese and Yuusha is used to refer to the Dragon Quest heroes and they believe that the codename we found thus signal a Dragon Quest character.
2. Dragon Quest seems like an inevitable pick to some people if Square Enix were to get a second rep in Ultimate, and certainly has a massive reputation that could lead one to believe it would happen, thus they're just preparing for the inveitable.
3. Probably the biggest thing is that we've been seeing leaks about a Dragon Quest character from different individuals for months now, and people naturally suspect that one has to be next if we're hearing so much noise from them (Regardless of credibility, of which not everyone is aware).

I won't be shocked if the next character is Erdrick since Nintendo seems to want Dragon Quest to be the Next Big Thing in the west. I'd be disappointed since this is a character that does absolutely nothing for me in terms of interest.

Though I think it's possible we could get a double reveal. A character that appeals to Japan (Erdrick) and a character that appeals to the west (Banjo).

 

[Izanagi97]

Brave is the title of Dragon Quest's heroes.

Technically the title is Yuusha (localized as Hero IIRC). It just so happens Yuusha can mean Brave or Hero. Problem is all those codenames were in English instead of Japanese.

 

[CannonStreak]

Technically the title is Yuusha (localized as Hero IIRC). It just so happens Yuusha can mean Brave or Hero. Problem is all those codenames were in English instead of Japanese.

So how is that a problem, just to make sure?

 

[Blue Mint]

Hey it's me again, some juicy info straight from Sakurai himself dropped today via a translation of that book from a little while back

https://www.resetera.com/threads/sa...velopment-dlc-more-in-his-recent-book.119020/

To copy/paste a bit

Spoiler: Translation List Under The Cut

• He knows some are serious, but he doesn't think characters like Iron Man and Goku will happen. (p27)
• DLC could say shortening the life span of its franchise. For Smash those characters could join in next time. But Smash is also not a title to think about continuation so doing his best every time. (p27)
• He wants Smash to be more casual and see non-competitive tournaments. Smash is a party game. But he also knows he is not the one to plan those. (p31)
• In Smash for days, there was restriction of a time span to offer updates and 3DS had a limited number of times to update. So Wii U version had to do the same. This is why Lucas, Roy, and Ryu released at the same time. (p33)
• If it's a one time purchase type of game, then it's more efficient for the company to start making the next game than keep updating. (p59)
• Updates are normal thing these days, but still they are voluntary service. (p59)
• He always thinks it's important to hear voices from people not speaking up. Real beginners don't speak up. (p61)
• The plan of Smash Ultimate completed December 16th 2015. It's a coincidence, but was the same day of the last Smash for Direct. (p63)
• He is not thinking of doing Smash Ballot again. It was used in Smash Ultimate's development very much. (p63)
• Bayonetta was the first pick among realisable characters. Above her, there were old veterans like Snake and other characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected. (p63)
• He was making the plans for Smash Ultimate during the vacation he got after Smash for DLC was done. (p69)
• He treats character's individuality as its own game itself. All the unique systems certain characters has are all newly built just for him/her. (p69)
• It's already had proven true that joining as a character in Smash has advertising effect. (p99)
• He played through beta version of Zelda BotW to the end in 2 days during the Smash Ultimate development because he needed to know how new Link works before anyone else. (p125)
• He thinks games should not be created based on researched data alone and saying games only born to imitate other games are misfortune. Those data should be used for marketings or managements, not to plan new games. Old data are old. (p133)
• (Speaking of Super Nintendo World) 60 billion yen is enough to make every Smash game up to Ultimate and more with couple ten billion of changes. Not many Japanese games have budgets over 10 billion yen. (p139)
• He wish there were Smash Area in Super Nintendo World. (p139)
• Smash Ultimate's DLC wasn't a thing at the time around Famitsu column vol. 546 January 11th 2018, and it was planned without the developers will. (p165)
• DLC developments in general take time, so by the time of the release, the market will be much smaller than it used to be. DLC business is very risky than people might think. (p165)
• They are not something sell that much so it's difficult to gather staffs. Sometimes better to move on to the next game. (p165)
• He is not fond of the idea of the season pass. Its a little scary to buy without knowing the contents. (p165)
• Omega and Battlefield for every stages take a lot more work than people might think. (p187)
• HAL Laboratory, Inc. is still on the credits list, but not involved in the development anymore. (p188)
• If you think about the completion of the development, bringing back everyone is not something you should do. (p189)
• The team was very careful of leaks at E3 2018. They didn't use printed promotional materials to avoid leaks. "Everyone is here" wasn't known even in Nintendo so the when it happened Nintendo staffs were also screaming. (p190)
• Smash tend to have characters from older series. But just old characters wouldn't make Smash worthy. If there is no new series, then the selection of the characters will be from the old series. (p199)
• People say "why they can't do this easy stuff?" but there is always a reason for that, One correction could cause another bug. (p205)
• The story idea of World of Light was already existed since Smash Brawl. (p208)
• He doesn't follow internets reaction so didn't know all the fan predictions. (p209)
• The idea of the Spirits is kind of the last resort. He is not sure he'll be making another gameplay like the Spirits. (p211)
• There was a plan to include a map like the Spirits to the Adventure Mode in Smash Melee. (p211)
• He said he took a long vacation, but actually he was just taking breaks as the calendar goes. He has a cat so he can't go for a long trip. (p214)
• By the time of the end of March 2019, the online win ratio of every character are very close to each other at the point he almost thinks better not to change anymore. (p216)
• There are metas, so just certain characters were strong at that time is not good enough reason to make them change. (p216)

This point in particular interests me

• Bayonetta was the first pick among realisable characters. Above her, there were old veterans like Snake and other characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected. (p63)

So Bayonetta was NOT the end all winner of the poll, she was only the top of at the time realizable picks, while veteran characters easily got more votes. But also "Characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected"

Hm, I wonder who that could be referring to... Keep in mind, this was way before Nintendo and MS became buddies

Could this really be it?

Is Ban

That column makes it sound like they tried negotiating for characters for Smash 4’s base game (Snake, whoever else) and Sakurai just probably chose out of top characters who hadn’t been talked about/rejected. Her inclusion makes more sense if you think about it like that. Strange that Square Enix was more willing to work with Sakurai, but I guess that’s just how it goes.

It kinda makes me think that characters like Banjo, King K. Rool, Simon/Richter (Konami owns Snake as well so it makes sense why they weren’t in) were probably negotiated for previously, but it didn’t work out. Whatever reason, it is possible that companies are more willing to negotiate this time around, especially evidenced by Konami giving us 2 Castlevania characters and a Bomberman assist trophy. Banjo could be helped by this for sure.

What?
But K. Rool is owned by Nintendo

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I actually kind of have a fun idea (which is completely unfounded in anything). What if we got a normal presentation like we did the day before Joker launched that talked about a 4.0 update and revealed the new character and presumably went over all the same details including say a new mode like Home Run Contest. During this Direct we'd get one newcomer like Erdrick, or Geno, or someone else that doesn't scream showstopper. It would get a ton of information out of the way and bring new Smash info to us that we're all so desperate for the same day as the Smash tournament at E3.

But then, during their actual E3 Nintendo Direct, we get the full reveal of Banjo Kazooie as the showstopper and then that potentially comes with the Rare Replay stuff that Sabi has talked about. That way, we get a big chunk of Smash news at E3, but it doesn't take up the main presentation (Especially given how much they've focused on Smash in the past year, I think they're better served only leaving the really big announcement for the actual presentation and covering the details elsewhere). Banjo doesn't even need to come out the day of, he can be the known upcoming newcomer while the second character drops during E3.

It's crazy, but it's a fun idea I've enjoyed entertaining in my mind a bit recently. The only other showstoppers I could think of would be Master Chief (Who I'm 99% sure isn't happening when Frank O' Connor is the one to shoot that down) or Sora (Who admittedly would be the major competition for such a spot if he's happening).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So how is that a problem, just to make sure?

It means it's not a clear cut thing.

Especially since the codenames for Joker and Arsene seems more like they might be direct references to Sherlock Holmes at this point, not actual "descriptions" of their class or abilities. Basically, we got nothing but a vague codename to go on and some stats which are fairly tangible. It's a lot more vague than people think. Erdrick is one reasonable possibility. Banjo can fit Brave's stats, but also fits the description about being Brave easily. Brave could be a personality description or be somewhat relevant to the character. One of such characters is Agumon, who has the symbol of Courage(a synonym of Brave). Likewise, the stats fit the character as well.

So basically, we're very much in the dark here. Just like we were completely in the dark when the name Jack came up. In fact, the only reason we believe Jane to be Kasumi as of now is because it was coded as a costume, and Kasumi happens to be very similar to a female Joker, making her being an alt a reasonable choice. It's no different from Alph or the Koopalings in that regard.

 

[CannonStreak]

It means it's not a clear cut thing.

Especially since the codenames for Joker and Arsene seems more like they might be direct references to Sherlock Holmes at this point, not actual "descriptions" of their class or abilities. Basically, we got nothing but a vague codename to go on and some stats which are fairly tangible. It's a lot more vague than people think. Erdrick is one reasonable possibility. Banjo can fit Brave's stats, but also fits the description about being Brave easily. Brave could be a personality description or be somewhat relevant to the character. One of such characters is Agumon, who has the symbol of Courage(a synonym of Brave). Likewise, the stats fit the character as well.

So basically, we're very much in the dark here. Just like we were completely in the dark when the name Jack came up. In fact, the only reason we believe Jane to be Kasumi as of now is because it was coded as a costume, and Kasumi happens to be very similar to a female Joker, making her being an alt a reasonable choice. It's no different from Alph or the Koopalings in that regard.

What were Joker and Arsene's codenames?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What were Joker and Arsene's codenames?

Jack and Doyle. Doyle had no real way to tie into it other than at best Sherlock Holmes stuff. Jack is a name that could be tied to that. I mean, the idea they were named after characters as is still works, with Jack Frost existing. But we don't know for sure on some of these things.

The rest of the Persona 5 crew were regular alternate names they had, so they don't mean much.

 

[SneakyLink]

What were Joker and Arsene's codenames?

Joker was Jack and I think Arsene was Doyle?

EDIT: Ya 'd me again Verde Coeden Scalesworth !

 

[AngrySun88]

I actually kind of have a fun idea (which is completely unfounded in anything). What if we got a normal presentation like we did the day before Joker launched that talked about a 4.0 update and revealed the new character and presumably went over all the same details including say a new mode like Home Run Contest. During this Direct we'd get one newcomer like Erdrick, or Geno, or someone else that doesn't scream showstopper. It would get a ton of information out of the way and bring new Smash info to us that we're all so desperate for the same day as the Smash tournament at E3.

But then, during their actual E3 Nintendo Direct, we get the full reveal of Banjo Kazooie as the showstopper and then that potentially comes with the Rare Replay stuff that Sabi has talked about. That way, we get a big chunk of Smash news at E3, but it doesn't take up the main presentation (Especially given how much they've focused on Smash in the past year, I think they're better served only leaving the really big announcement for the actual presentation and covering the details elsewhere). Banjo doesn't even need to come out the day of, he can be the known upcoming newcomer while the second character drops during E3.

It's crazy, but it's a fun idea I've enjoyed entertaining in my mind a bit recently. The only other showstoppers I could think of would be Master Chief (Who I'm 99% sure isn't happening when Frank O' Connor is the one to shoot that down) or Sora (Who admittedly would be the major competition for such a spot if he's happening).

I've thought the exact same thing.

This also gives both Japanese fans someone they wand and the western fans someone they want.

Plus, there is precedent of E3 showing two characters and they did set the deadline of Feb 2020.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

So about two pages ago I tried to do a writeup on all of the evidence for both Steve and Banjo. I want to try and do a more complete version here
I'm not interested in reasons as to WHY Steve or Banjo deserve to be in Smash here, I'm looking purely at evidence and facts. Ergo I'm not going to be talking about Google Theory

Putting everything in spoiler tags because otherwise this would be a wall of words and I want to make this easy to read and digest

Spoiler: Evidence for Steve

Evidence for Steve

There has been a lot of "He said, she said" regarding Steve, but what's peculiar is that no one can keep their story straight and facts vary depending on who you ask. Vergeben, the dude we love to hate, had gotten the base roster for Smash Bros. correct and accurate right up to the release; but Minecraft has been the one thing that's haunted him and the one thing he's consistently blown.

At one point he said a source said Steve was playable in an early build, but that turned out to be false. At one point he claimed Enderdragon would be a boss, but that ended up being Rathalos' files reading as "Endragon" there was also a theory/joke that his source confused the Cubivore Pig spirit for the Minecraft pig.

And that's just Vergeben, other people who've claimed Minecraft is in Smash have had conflicting claims. This post from /v/ does a good job summarizing it

Spoiler: Insider confusion summarized

View attachment 224312

Presently, Vergeben has recently stated that he still believes Minecraft is coming to Smash; but that he's not necessarily backing Steve as playable and that the claim that he WAS playable in an early build was probably false

Spoiler: Verg's latest claim

View attachment 224315

Meanwhile, two of Mojang's own employees have openly talked about Steve in Smash. Aubrery Norris the community manager, has been very upfront over how she believes Steve would be a bad choice to be a playable Minecraft rep. TheRaddestBro is a staff member on Minecraft's official Discord who openly said "Steve is not in Smash", but suddenly walked that back the next day when his response went viral.

Spoiler: RaddestBro on damage control?

View attachment 224314

People were quick to dimiss RaddestBro when it was discovered he was a very new employee of the company at the time so "He wouldn't know". Which is fair, but Aubrey Norris is one people flip-flop on: Some say that the fact that she's speaking about it openly and being very frank about how she thinks Steve is a bad pick and that she's rather high up on the company means that Steve is deconfirmed, while others say that her personal opinions don't matter and that her word doesn't count and that she wouldn't know either. Another thing to note is, she is VERY well aware of how much this is currently a hot-button conversation within the Smash community

Spoiler: Aubrey knows what we're arguing about

View attachment 224316

Again, I'm looking at this purely from a facts and logic perspective, and what I see is someone very affluent within Mojang bad-mouthing their own mascots chances of being in Smash. If Steve were hypothetically in Smash, it seems to me that someone higher up on the company would have requested her to take the tweets down. Some argue that having her take the tweets down would make it look too suspicious... but a similar thing happened on Banjo's side which I'll get to.

The point is... If Steve truly IS in Smash Bros, than this is some seriously BAD PR for Mojang to allow their staff to openly diss their mascot and how they'd be a bad fit for Smash Bros.

At the end of the day... there's actually not a lot going for Steve. All we have is second-hand knowledge and "Take my word for it"'s from insiders. The biggest 'evidence' is actually pointing against Steve's chances here.

Now, let's look at Banjo

Spoiler: Evidence for Banjo

Evidence for Banjo

Banjo also has a lot of "He said, she said" going on, but this seems to be a bit more straight-forward. No debating if one character is going to be a boss or a spirit, it's either they're in or they're not.

Indiegamerchick has heavily leaned on Banjo being in, along with the N64 Classic and/or Rare Replay coming to the Switch since about last year; but none of these have managed to materialize just yet. Despite this, she is a credible insider: Her claim to fame is that she knew ahead of time who was going to be taking Mr. Iwata's place temporarily after his passing, but she's also gotten:

The Metroid 2 Remake that happened on 3DS
Simon and Richter
SNES classic and Star Fox 2 finally being finished

Here's what she had to say about Microsoft and Nintendo:

Spoiler: IDC on Microsoft, Rare, and Nintendo

View attachment 224317

Jez Corden is a Senior Editor at Windows Central and a Microsoft insider. He runs a podcast with Rand Al Thor called "The Xbox Two" where they discussed Banjo being in from a reliable source back in December ( Thanks @BZocky for bringing this to my attention)

But insiders are just people asking us to trust them, do we have any evidence or signs that Banjo is coming? Actually, we do! A disclaimer here is that ALL of these points can easily be circumstantial evidence, but it's worth looking into all the same.

1. The big one: Coding for Rareware spirits (Specifically Blast Corps and Jet Force Gemini) were found during the initial datamine for the game once it released.
2. Initial stats for a fighter codnamed Brave painted a picture of a fighter with a sliding turn and a floaty jump; two traits Banjo is known for in the two games.
3. Lootcrate was at one point offering a Banjo-Kazooie item in their upcoming box and even tweeted out about Banjo-Kazooie in Smash Bros. Suddenly, the tweet was yanked down very quickly and the Banjo item vanished from the box, leaving customers bewildered and confused.

Spoiler: Said deleted tweet

View attachment 224318

4. First4Figures, the company known for making high end Banjo-Kazooie and Conker statues has been invited personally by Rare themselves to attend E3 this year.
5. Phil Spencer has been very open up until now about wanting Banjo in Smash

There was also a recent story from Discord about how paperwork for Banjo amiibo were seen for allocating space in a warehouse; but without physical evidence I'm not adding that to the list.

As I said though, ALL of these points could easily be circumstantial or mere coincidence: Some say the Rare spirits are due to Nintendo being confused over if they owned the rights, Brave could easily be another character, Lootcrate maybe just ran into a problem and had to ditch the Banjo item, First4 may just be invited to show off a Battletoads or Sea of Thieves statue, and Phil Spencer saying he wants Banjo in Smash could have just been a PR answer (He actually addressed this claim in an interview, but the wording is so vague that it could be taken either way)

Spoiler: Phil on his "PR answer"

View attachment 224330

However, you have to admit, circumstantial evidence is better than NO evidence. Banjo actually has more going for him than Steve does right now. Steve's biggest evidence is striking AGAINST him, while Banjo has a set of circumstances and events that seem to be pointing in his favor

Only E3 will tell for sure

But dat Steve sells all dem copies!

 

[Megadoomer]

This point in particular interests me

• Bayonetta was the first pick among realisable characters. Above her, there were old veterans like Snake and other characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected. (p63)

So Bayonetta was NOT the end all winner of the poll, she was only the top of at the time realizable picks, while veteran characters easily got more votes. But also "Characters that were already tried negotiating but got rejected"

Hm, I wonder who that could be referring to... Keep in mind, this was way before Nintendo and MS became buddies

Could this really be it?

This isn't anything new, though - that's exactly how it was described when she was announced. If I had to guess, the characters above Bayonetta were people like Snake, Banjo-Kazooie (from third party companies that weren't cooperative), Ice Climbers (popular veterans, but they wouldn't work on the 3DS), or Ridley. (Sakurai couldn't figure out how to make him work, or he already had a role in the game)

K. Rool might have had his votes split with Dixie (people wanted a new DK character, but there wasn't a consensus on which one), or maybe they couldn't come up with a moveset in the time that they had. (his specials were obvious - most people called well in advance that he'd have a blunderbuss, crown toss, and the helicopter backpack - but most of his physical attacks in the DKC games consisted of running into the opponent, which isn't a deep well to draw from)

Bayonetta wasn't a ballot winner. She was decided before it even launched.

If the placeholders are any indication, they decided on her a few weeks after the ballot, not before it. A ballot like that seems like it would be extremely front-loaded (most of the votes would be likely be at the very beginning; people might keep voting throughout, but it seems like it would either slow down or be people who are voting a second or third time), we don't know how they handled multiple submissions from the same IP address (did they only count the first one? The last one? What about siblings who share a computer, or public computers like ones at a library?), and Bayonetta 2 came out around the same time as Smash for 3DS, so there was definitely interest.

I'm just tired of hearing these conspiracy theories. If Corrin had been announced as the ballot winner, then I'd see why people would say that it was fixed - his inclusion only seems to promote an upcoming Nintendo game, and it seems unlikely that he'd have a lot of popularity outside of Japan given that his game wasn't released outside of Japan at the time. I just don't see what Nintendo has to gain by supposedly rigging the ballot in favour of a relatively niche third party character, albeit one with a major Wii U exclusive game, (meaning that they wouldn't see much of a profit from the decision) over one that they fully own, and maintaining that "lie" for several years when there's no benefit.

A simpler explanation is that Bayonetta 2 came out at the right time, was generally seen as a big reason to own the Wii U (and a Smash DLC ballot would likely appeal to people who already had Smash for Wii U or 3DS), and more popular characters like Snake have major issues that would keep them out of the game.

It likely also helped that they were already working with Sega, and Bayonetta's games gave her a complete moveset to work with, making it easier to complete her quickly. (whereas with someone like K. Rool, most of his moves would need to be made from scratch)

 

[Planet Cool]

It kinda makes me think that characters like Banjo, King K. Rool, Simon/Richter (Konami owns Snake as well so it makes sense why they weren’t in) were probably negotiated for previously, but it didn’t work out.

Nintendo owns the Donkey Kong IP and everything associated with it, including King K. Rool. They even own Krunch from Diddy Kong Racing (their only DKR character besides Diddy) because the manual says he's a Kremling.