Social Banjo-Kazooie Social Thread - Project Dream Come True!

[weallfloatdownhere7]

Nahhh the other characters are far too unique in size and shape for that.

Other than maybe a few they’re all pretty much the same size/shape

 

[Organization XIII]

I've never said characters popular during that era were not popular, many indeed were. I'm saying our online polls are not necessarily indicative of realities across a fan base as broad and as mainstream as Smash has. There are going to be response biases with every online poll, and let's face it, there are many times I've seen communities and support threads actively push to vote a certain way in polls that practically ensures that happened to some extent. Take us Geno fans for example. If you look at the online polls, we have quite a large presence and represent a quite substantial fan base, but we're also the most likely to be vocal online about that character since he's less remembered by the collective of Smash fans. He may be over-represented in our online polls as a result of being a less known character to a variety of people outside of the more hardcore Smash fan base. I don't have data to back that up because we don't know Ballot Results and so on, but it's at least a line of logic that can be followed and potentially indicate differences between fan conducted online polls and the real polls. Vocal minorities and silent majorities can exist in all forms of voting. Furthermore, you have stuff like indies actively promoting ballot voting for their characters like Wayforward and Shantae, which can also heavily skew data as people unlikely to vote may then vote with that suggestion from a publisher they like.

My main point is that it can be really difficult to make conclusions from polls that we have, and even the ballot itself may be problematic to draw conclusions from because there are additional factors to consider in everything. A democratic voting process can become less useful when there are literally thousands of options available to the voters in an instance like the ballot. And you also have issues like characters with more defined roles in Smash 4 like Ridley and Isabelle probably performing more poorly on the ballot since it was positioned initially as Smash 4 DLC related. Additionally, seeing all of the ballot data can also indicate certain trends that may not exist clearly to our limited fan polls as well, Castlevania being the ideal example as a series that never had a more specific character polling super well, but as a series polled well and communicated interest to Sakurai.

Those are valid concerns but we can be sure that's not the case because one, the ballot itself was 1.8 million votes. Considering how small of a subset this is we can reasonably assume that there weren't a mass pocket of casual voters to influence the results and that the people who cared enough to partake in online polls are going to be the ones who cared enough to actually vote in the official ballot. And two, while overrepresentation might have been an issue if we only had one unofficial poll to go off, we have hundreds throughout the internet, possibly thousands, from all different kinds of sources, so Geno might have overperformed on 1,2 maybe 60 polls, but then we can find just as many where he underperformed and placed super low or not at all. When you take all of those polls together and see a consistent view of characters being brought up we have a good idea of who did well in the ballot. We may not be able to nail exact placements but we can see patterns in who is popular in the community and by extension in the ballot.

The ballot really just gives you additional information in what fans are interested in, and shouldn't necessarily be a determining factor on its own to be honest. There's tons of fandoms outside of the ballot to consider and other ways that fans may show support. It's a weighty decision no matter how you look at it.

I'm going to disagree heavily with this. While it's true there are fandoms and whatnot outside of the ballot, the ballot shows the characters the people who care about who is in the roster want to see. Considering even non hardcore fans were excited at seeing characters like Ridley and K Rool despite them not appealing to the audiences at large characters that directly appeal to hardcore fans can be just as exciting for non hardcore fans so there's a lot of reason to give weight to ballot placing characters.

Another thing I want to highlight yet again is that listening to fan demand does not necessarily mean character choices. A more intentional Classic Mode, the return of major Single Player content, a more detailed training mode, Hazardless stages, Fountain of Dreams returning, savable rule sets, etc. Those all show an active dedication to listening to fans. I think a lot of the fan base tends to get way too focused on character related stuff. I certainly agree they're super important (Cloud being in the game IS more important to me than the stuff that comes with him), but it's foolish to completely ignore all of the other areas in which improvements or attempts have been made to satisfy fan demand. Regardless of how some of those things turned out (Some people hate World of Light for example), it does represent work done in the name of fan satisfaction.

I'm aware. I've even stated that I'm sure the ballot affected Mii costumes, ATs, and who got legendary spirits. I never said the ballot wasn't used, I never said Sakurai doesn't care about what the fans want, all I'm saying is I want characters the fans want to see to have more of a place on the roster. Just more of a balance. At the end of the day, Smash is a roster driven game and I want as much weight given to who the people want to see as they do to promotion. Right now it's very hard for characters who only have fan demand to appear as full characters, whereas characters with little or no popularity make it in pretty frequently. It makes it feel like popularity isn't a strong consideration for the roster and I want that adjusted. Maybe Sakurai has less control over the roster than we thought and he has to give characters with promotion potential the advantage. Maybe he is required to add a Pokemon each game. I don't know but at the end of the day, I see something that I think could make the roster stronger, not that the roster is bad or the game doesn't cater to fans, just something I feel could be improved.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Soooo anyone live near a Microsoft store and wanna check this out?

What is a microsoft store?

Every fighting game has a face, some of them are rather "bland" when compared to some of the additional player characters.

Ryu's a standard karate guy in a series that has a electrified Brazilian beast man thing.
Heihachi's another pretty standard karate guy, in a series that has a playable bear and a wooden man thing.
Hayato in Plasma Sword, just a fairly standard energy sword guy. There's genies and weird as hell stuff in that game.
Scorpion too, think about how "out there" characters like Goro and Sheeva are.
Fulgore. Killer Instinct has Werewolves and Velociraptors.
Even Darkstalkers, which is filled with all sorts of insane monsters like a merman and a Sasquatch has the more standard humany looking vampire/succubus as the face of the series.

They're all character driven but they all have a face. Spring Man is that to Arms.

I can understand your logic with that, but I whole heartedly disagree.
I don't know the history of all of those games, but I do know that Scorpion did not start as the face of the series. If anything, Liu Kang did- he was even the star of the kult klassic movie.
My point is that the future will tell us what happens with the series. A good game about characters actually listens to the fans about who should be the mascot- the face- which is why my initial post brought up Pikachu, Isabelle, and Scoprion.
I've yet to see an argument to actually counter that, aside from at best, that Spring Man is the hero of the story (if you search really hard), which would still equate him to Liu Kang or an actual starter Pokemon.

However, comparing series is ultimately never the most helpful. I just personally don't think that if ARMS continues, Springman will inherently be the face.

So back to Banjo, the face of Rare!

 

[MissingGlitch]

What is a microsoft store?

It's exactly like an apple store but with Microsoft products. So they are normally located in malls and have a bunch of products you can interact with on the floor.

 

[pupNapoleon]

It's exactly like an apple store but with Microsoft products. So they are normally located in malls and have a bunch of products you can interact with on the floor.

That's crazy. When did that become a thing? I've lived in a lot of big cities in the US and never have I found one.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

Soooo anyone live near a Microsoft store and wanna check this out?

There's one an hour-ish away from me. I live in Daytona Beach and its in Orlando

Some time this month I'll try and swing by, but I want to give it some time just in case this update takes a bit to roll out

 

[Swop]

I think it's possible we get both Steve and Banjo.
If it were to happen (at once), E3 would be the best time.

I mean, its Plausible.

I'd yell, Dance, Carry on and absolutely lose it if Banjo is revealed.

But if Steve is revealed alongside Banjo, well, as much as I dislike the Idea of Steve in smash, I gotta say the ****Posting on 4Chan will be Glorious.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I mean, its Plausible.

I'd yell, Dance, Carry on and absolutely lose it if Banjo is revealed.

But if Steve is revealed alongside Banjo, well, as much as I dislike the Idea of Steve in smash, I gotta say the ****Posting on 4Chan will be absolutely Glorious.

It's always crazy to me when people dislike Steve.
I mean I understand sometimes those things are just emotional, but Minecraft is de facto not just a huge game culturally, but in terms of sales... well, it's nearly unmatched.
I may not like the series, but it would amp up the legacy of Smash to have a character like Steve.

 

[TheAnvil]

It's always crazy to me when people dislike Steve.
I mean I understand sometimes those things are just emotional, but Minecraft is de facto not just a huge game culturally, but in terms of sales... well, it's nearly unmatched.
I may not like the series, but it would amp up the legacy of Smash to have a character like Steve.

It's not about disliking Minecraft. Steve's a superfluous, interchangeable skin. Not a character.

 

[MissingGlitch]

It's not about disliking Minecraft. Steve's a superfluous, interchangeable skin. Not a character.

I don't think we want to start up this debate again.

 

[egaddmario]

I think more likely is we just get Spring Man in the next game assuming he remains the face of the IP. Probably with a Ribbon Girl echo.

I don't see him as the face of the series. He's just the bland character on the box used to help introduce people to the series when it was new. Ribbongirl as well.

ARMS is a character driven game, and those take time for the true mascot to emerge. Pokemon with Pikachu, Animal Crossing with Isabelle, Mortal Kombat with Scorpion. Those did not happen right away.

If anything, Min Min or Twintelle are the (clear) fan favorites. But that doesn't mean they'd get in before Spring Man.

 

[TheZoologist]

I don't think we want to start up this debate again.

We really don't. This is a loving community and we should keep the focus in this thread towards our love and support for Banjo & Kazooie in Smash and in general.

 

[Deleted member]

This is funny

This is it All of the clues are coming together I've followed these hints to this exact spot And then right where you're standing I found this SuperSmashBros Ultimate Fighters Pass HA Oh I'm so close to solving this riddle I can almost taste it 👅Boy analysis sure makes me hungry pic.twitter.com/aCVyFlk0nQ

— Bottles🧩 wants Rayman 4 after Sparks of Hope✊ (@BottlesTheMole) May 2, 2019

 

[Organization XIII]

It's always crazy to me when people dislike Steve.
I mean I understand sometimes those things are just emotional, but Minecraft is de facto not just a huge game culturally, but in terms of sales... well, it's nearly unmatched.
I may not like the series, but it would amp up the legacy of Smash to have a character like Steve.

While you are correct having the Minecraft brand in Smash makes the game more lucrative to the fans Smash is already lucrative so they don't need the Minecraft brand to make the game more enjoyable. They'd rather have characters they actually support.

 

[Looma]

Smash is crazy successful already. I appreciate it way more when a "lesser" game is given such a huge spotlight and new people are pointed in its direction.

i.e. Mother, F-Zero, Bayonetta, Xenoblade, Punch-Out!!, etc.
and Banjo

 

[SchAlternate]

I swear to god, every time I come to this thread and see someone """leak""" information against Banjo, half of this thread's recurring users jump ship like a kraken crash-landed into it.

Grow a spine, folks. No giving up till the old-yet-young-looking Japanese man sings.

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

Guys, guys, I think we're getting this all wrong.

At E3, they will reveal that Phil Spencer is in Smash as our Microsoft rep.

His alts include a pair of yellow shorts with a blue backpack, a blocky costume with a diamond sword, and a green space marine suit.
And his Final Smash will be him giving an E3 press conference that puts everyone to sleep.

 

[MissingGlitch]

I have an Xbox. Is there a chance I'm actually the Xbox rep?

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Those are valid concerns but we can be sure that's not the case because one, the ballot itself was 1.8 million votes. Considering how small of a subset this is we can reasonably assume that there weren't a mass pocket of casual voters to influence the results and that the people who cared enough to partake in online polls are going to be the ones who cared enough to actually vote in the official ballot. And two, while overrepresentation might have been an issue if we only had one unofficial poll to go off, we have hundreds throughout the internet, possibly thousands, from all different kinds of sources, so Geno might have overperformed on 1,2 maybe 60 polls, but then we can find just as many where he underperformed and placed super low or not at all. When you take all of those polls together and see a consistent view of characters being brought up we have a good idea of who did well in the ballot. We may not be able to nail exact placements but we can see patterns in who is popular in the community and by extension in the ballot.

I'm going to disagree heavily with this. While it's true there are fandoms and whatnot outside of the ballot, the ballot shows the characters the people who care about who is in the roster want to see. Considering even non hardcore fans were excited at seeing characters like Ridley and K Rool despite them not appealing to the audiences at large characters that directly appeal to hardcore fans can be just as exciting for non hardcore fans so there's a lot of reason to give weight to ballot placing characters.


I'm aware. I've even stated that I'm sure the ballot affected Mii costumes, ATs, and who got legendary spirits. I never said the ballot wasn't used, I never said Sakurai doesn't care about what the fans want, all I'm saying is I want characters the fans want to see to have more of a place on the roster. Just more of a balance. At the end of the day, Smash is a roster driven game and I want as much weight given to who the people want to see as they do to promotion. Right now it's very hard for characters who only have fan demand to appear as full characters, whereas characters with little or no popularity make it in pretty frequently. It makes it feel like popularity isn't a strong consideration for the roster and I want that adjusted. Maybe Sakurai has less control over the roster than we thought and he has to give characters with promotion potential the advantage. Maybe he is required to add a Pokemon each game. I don't know but at the end of the day, I see something that I think could make the roster stronger, not that the roster is bad or the game doesn't cater to fans, just something I feel could be improved.

The issue with our polls comes down to the fact that they're all conducted as individual and optional polls that don't always have consistent rules or ways of combating instances of people attempting to bot certain polls or otherwise. Nintendo I'm sure suffered from a lot of people attempting multiple votes, but I would hope that they at least have a better ability to combat issues that your average Reddit/4chan/SmashBoards poll or even a SourceGaming type of poll.

More importantly though, those multiple polls are not conducted in different areas most of the time. They are primarily conducted in areas that serve as hubs for Smash fandom or discussion. The polls most fans use in arguments are looking at an extremely narrow subset of fans who are willing to conduct themselves in discussions or vote on particular character polls to express their opinion. Rarely do these polls operate outside of the traditional Smash fandoms, and thus you've got a serious issue where you're not really getting a diverse body of responses. Even worse, you may be testing the same section of a population multiple times since Smash fans tend to conglomerate in the same areas or similar sites. It's difficult to make any judgments on these polls because of anonymity and an inability to reduce potential factors that may skew results.

There essentially repeated trials on similar populations, and while that may help to strengthen an overall conclusion of what this subset of internet fandoms want at particular moments, it's difficult to ignore all of the response biases that may be affecting our theoretical study. Furthermore, our results do not necessarily map on to the population of all Smash Ballot voters. A voluntary survey is one of the weakest ways to collect data in statistics, especially one that, again, has potentially thousands of different outcomes (It has been a while since I've done statistical tests, so I don't know exactly know which statistical test we'd be performing and if we even can with so many results and variances to play with).

The other big issue with our data is that people have a tendency to partake in polls/elections/whatever when they believe their vote has a more important impact/can make an impact. Thus some people are likely to vote exclusively on the real Ballot because they interpret that as worth their time whereas online polls may not warrant reactions if they're even aware of them to begin with.

I just find so many issues with using the polling data we have. Yes, it's probably overall our best indicator of what Smash fans* want and different locations do at least attract different audiences and potentially have more unique samples voting on characters. We certainly see some variation in choices to support that idea. I mark Smash fans with a * because again, we're generally talking about the most vocal fans who are willing to engage in discussions or these unlikely online polls. It may be the best we have, but because of the myriad of issues surrounding the data collection process, I hesitate to pull many conclusions from our data. I think the Smash ballot also suffers from some similar issues, but at least that is much more data and hopefully has more definitive parameters in which the data was worked with.

Sorry for that long rant, but it does encapsulate my major issues with polls and the Ballot as a consistent tool for recognizing fan demand. It's certainly helpful to a degree, I won't deny that. But yeah it has issues. The hype surrounding King K. Rool and Ridley was also specifically because we as a community helped create those hype moments with our dedication and built up a mythos for people to engage with. The more big longtime requests we get like those though, the less we'll be able to pull that particular excitement though.

 

[GenoFlash]

I have an Xbox. Is there a chance I'm actually the Xbox rep?

The real Xbox rep was the friends we made along the way.

 

[dlewis53]

Grow a spine, folks. No giving up till the old-yet-young-looking Japanese man sings.

Yeah, I'm not going to give up hope until this scenario happens: We get to the final Fighter Pass character, it's not Banjo-Kazooie, they weren't any of the previous characters, and it's flat-out confirmed that there's no second Pass. Only then will I actually give up hope.

Well, either that or they end up as a Mii costume.

 

[Deleted member]

I have an Xbox. Is there a chance I'm actually the Xbox rep?

I have an Xbox one,s,and x. so the Xbox rep is actually me while you all are mii costumes and spirits

 

[MissingGlitch]

Alright I've had enough. If Banjo is not revealed at E3 I will not hesitate to snap away half the smash roster. Don't tempt me Nintendo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, I'm not going to give up hope until this scenario happens: We get to the final Fighter Pass character, it's not Banjo-Kazooie, they weren't any of the previous characters, and it's flat-out confirmed that there's no second Pass. Only then will I actually give up hope.

Well, either that or they end up as a Mii costume.

Though to be fair, if they're a Mii costume, that could increase their chances for the next game. Anything beyond that(as in they aren't in the FP and are only a Spirit) I wouldn't be keen on thinking they have a decent chance.

Mind you, I'm 50/50 on the character being playable alone. Especially since it was noted that Ridley wasn't heavily requested in Japan, being more a Western pick. So it's not like he can't pick characters who appeal to only one specific set of fans. There's nothing wrong with that, after all. Sure, worldwide appeal is nice too. They're both valid reasonings for character inclusions.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I have an Xbox. Is there a chance I'm actually the Xbox rep?

Mafia/Thanos Winnie the Poo confirmed!

 

[TheAnvil]

A Mii costume would be crippling

 

[dlewis53]

Though to be fair, if they're a Mii costume, that could increase their chances for the next game. Anything beyond that(as in they aren't in the FP and are only a Spirit) I wouldn't be keen on thinking they have a decent chance.

Thing is, what makes Ultimate so special is it's roster and how it didn't cut ANYONE out, and Sakurai more-or-less stated that if there's a next game (which seems likely), then it's very likely that that won't be repeated, so even if Banjo-Kazooie are in that game, it still would come off as not as special because characters got cut.

 

[NickoRaptor]

The way I see this going, it feels inevitable that we're getting 2 reveals at E3 and Brave is obviously one of them. I see a lot of people dismissing Erdrick since they don't have a lot of popularity in the West, so I have a theory: maybe they're having two reveals so they can please both East and West fans.

Erdrick obviously is the Eastern choice, what with DQ being absolutely massive over there. As for the Western reveal, a Microsoft character feels almost certain. Everything has been pointing to Banjo for the Microsoft character as well, but I wouldn't really be too surprised if it's Steve either. (I'm still leaning towards Banjo though of course.)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Thing is, what makes Ultimate so special is it's roster and how it didn't cut ANYONE out, and Sakurai more-or-less stated that if there's a next game (which seems likely), then it's very likely that that won't be repeated, so even if Banjo-Kazooie are in that game, it still would come off as not as special because characters got cut.

That's fair, but it would still mean he could get in next game.

Which was my point. Any game after Ultimate won't feel the same due to cuts. That's quite true. Which'll make it sad. Thankfully there's some good things to keep in mind; the first character of a franchise won't be cut unless the franchise itself is cut is an extremely likely scenario(though most of that is through precedent. Ness did almost get cut twice, but he stayed in the end. When it was finally the choice between Ness and Lucas, Lucas took backseat as well. Lucas was supposed to be in Melee, but Mother 64 got cancelled, making that idea impossible). The original 12 are likely cemented in stone(though only 3 could see cuts, being Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, and Ness. Though Jigglypuff has the advantage of being from an always relevant franchise, and is very easy to make. Ness and Captain Falcon don't have this to their name, with one franchise being finished, and the other being dead. It's understandable why people look at them as the most likely to go. Not saying they should, but the logic has reasonable points to it).

 

[Mr. Stagg]

I played Banjo-Tooie in Rare Replay at a Microsoft store and once I left, a kid kept playing Banjo instead going back to Fortnite or something.

Kids don’t have to know who Banjo is, but he appeals enough to them.

— Dee-Pad (@Destructo_Dan) May 2, 2019

Ooohhhh nooo... I thought Banjo-kazooie only appealed to ancient people, the Anon's on 4chan told me so. You mean to tell me that kids can....like.....the boomer bear and bird? Ooooooohhhhhhh nnoooooooooo.....

 

[SuperiorYoshi87]

MS throws us all through a loop and it's the Hero from Fable whos the MS rep.... I do love Fable...

 

[Deleted member]

A Mii costume would be crippling

I don’t see it happening

 

[MissingGlitch]

Banjo is literally a cartoon animal mascot. Kids are going to love him regardless if they know him or not. Kids eat that stuff up.

 

[Lycan Rex]

I don’t see it happening

Don't us.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't us.

No really I don’t see him as that.

 

[Bestmand902]

Thoughts on this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP_b2uihCjc

 

[Deleted member]

Thoughts on this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP_b2uihCjc

Wasent the moh claim already debunked?

 

[N3ON]

I played Banjo-Tooie in Rare Replay at a Microsoft store and once I left, a kid kept playing Banjo instead going back to Fortnite or something.

Kids don’t have to know who Banjo is, but he appeals enough to them.

— Dee-Pad (@Destructo_Dan) May 2, 2019

Ooohhhh nooo... I thought Banjo-kazooie only appealed to ancient people, the Anon's on 4chan told me so. You mean to tell me that kids can....like.....the boomer bear and bird? Ooooooohhhhhhh nnoooooooooo.....
View attachment 215085

All three takes in this quote are a top to bottom misunderstanding (or misrepresentation) of that actual argument.

The widest group of people who will enjoy 90s music is those who came up during that decade, when the music was current and at its most relevant. Nothing is stopping people who were born later from enjoying that music, but it’s going to garner a more infrequent, less concentrated appreciation.

That is the point here. Not that an older audience is a dealbreaker, but it is true. Banjo would be added for the sake of older gamers.

Anyone arguing or suggesting the argument is people born after whatever year are unable to enjoy the character, as if they recently started inoculating against Banjo, has built themselves a strawman.

Tens of thousands of kids play Super Mario Bros for the first time every year.

 

[MissingGlitch]

-snip-

Alright on 2nd thought I don't think anything I just said had anything to do with what you said sorry. :V

I shouldn't try writing long posts at work.

 

[Deleted member]

Unrelated, but apparently you can buy DLC fighter-related spirits.................while also not owning the fighter said spirit is related to.

So i guess it would be possible to have a Blast Corps Sprit while not owning Banjo as DLC? I dunno im not sure how that works.