Ban custom moves

[garchomp4smash]

Now im not butt hurt or salty
Im perfectly fine using this on for fun and for glory
Im just saying thats its a unfair advantage in tournaments

My main problem with them is how some characters have great custom moves and some have horrid ones
thoughts?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If you turn OFF customizations, that'll end the issue.

 

[Talpr1]

Some characters have amazing normals, while others have horrid ones. Your point?

 

[CaP_Omega]

Some characters have amazing normals, while others have horrid ones. Your point?

Let's ask this: are you wanting to ban all custom moves or a select list of them?

 

[Kwinston]

I also think that customs should be banned. I don't feel like unlocking the customs and learning each of the new matchups that come from the customs. That is all just to much. I know that the custom moves have a lot of potential to expanding the current meta for sm4sh a lot, but I don't think It needs the complication.

 

[LancerStaff]

Some characters have amazing normals, while others have horrid ones. Your point?

They're not balanced for and won't ever be to a worthwhile extent, require tons of effort, aren't fun to deal with, and don't add any real depth.

 

[CaP_Omega]

I also think that customs should be banned. I don't feel like unlocking the customs and learning each of the new matchups that come from the customs. That is all just to much. I know that the custom moves have a lot of potential to expanding the current meta for sm4sh a lot, but I don't think It needs the complication.

Well then you get a self imposed dilemma.
As we know now, there are certain characters that allow for many more opportunities than others (i.e. characters who have been able too keep a solid placement at the high ranks: Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Sonic, Mario, Yoshi, Ness). It is because of this that people have resorted to using Custom Moves in order to give abilities to other characters so that their abilities can compete with those of higher rank. But if we take that opportunity away for the sake of killing the meta, we have only discovery of new techs or new balancing patches to rely on, but both those methods are losing validity in balancing due to the fact that many more techs are being discovered to benefit characters that are already very capable and patches so far have catered to much of the mid and high ranking cast but the low ranking cast has been given little attention.

 

[Kwinston]

Well then you get a self imposed dilemma.
As we know now, there are certain characters that allow for many more opportunities than others (i.e. characters who have been able too keep a solid placement at the high ranks: Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Sonic, Mario, Yoshi, Ness). It is because of this that people have resorted to using Custom Moves in order to give abilities to other characters so that their abilities can compete with those of higher rank. But if we take that opportunity away for the sake of killing the meta, we have only discovery of new techs or new balancing patches to rely on, but both those methods are losing validity in balancing due to the fact that many more techs are being discovered to benefit characters that are already very capable and patches so far have catered to much of the mid and high ranking cast but the low ranking cast has been given little attention.

I think that you can beat any character with any character if you just learn the matchup and how to handle the character you are fighting. If you have better fundamentals and get better reading skills then you should be able to beat characters like Shiek with someone like Robin. Just learn how people play the character and how to counteract that. Do you remember back when Diddy was the best character and everyone thought he was OP? People started to learn how to fight Diddy and what to look out for when going against him. Just learn your matchups against higher tier characters against the characters you play as and you'll be fine!

 

[LancerStaff]

Well then you get a self imposed dilemma.
As we know now, there are certain characters that allow for many more opportunities than others (i.e. characters who have been able too keep a solid placement at the high ranks: Sheik, Diddy, Rosalina, ZSS, Sonic, Mario, Yoshi, Ness). It is because of this that people have resorted to using Custom Moves in order to give abilities to other characters so that their abilities can compete with those of higher rank. But if we take that opportunity away for the sake of killing the meta, we have only discovery of new techs or new balancing patches to rely on, but both those methods are losing validity in balancing due to the fact that many more techs are being discovered to benefit characters that are already very capable and patches so far have catered to much of the mid and high ranking cast but the low ranking cast has been given little attention.

They've actually done a good job of balancing in accordance to the Japanese tier list. Falco, Link, Marth, Lucina, Ike and Charizard all at least jumped up a tier with the last patch.

 

[CaP_Omega]

They've actually done a good job of balancing in accordance to the Japanese tier list. Falco, Link, Marth, Lucina, Ike and Charizard all at least jumped up a tier with the last patch.

Falco and Ike certainly received some good adjustments, but the others I'm either not confident in or very aware of (though I can say that I don't have hi hopes for Charizard - with his attributes as they are, he could at least use less startup on Rock Smash and/or Flare Blitz or higher jumps, possibly adjusted hitboxes).

I think that you can beat any character with any character if you just learn the matchup and how to handle the character you are fighting. If you have better fundamentals and get better reading skills then you should be able to beat characters like Shiek with someone like Robin. Just learn how people play the character and how to counteract that. Do you remember back when Diddy was the best character and everyone thought he was OP? People started to learn how to fight Diddy and what to look out for when going against him. Just learn your matchups against higher tier characters against the characters you play as and you'll be fine!

That is possible. But once again, some characters have more options than others across the board. And in a game where movement is the best option versus attacking head on, that is paramount. That being the case, assuming two player opponents are on a similar level of skill, a player can use a character that has good offensive or defensive statistics and win, but a player who uses a character with greater agility will be able to wear down the tactics of the other.
There are many ways to accommodate for that situation, but to press down limits further than what has already been done is not one of them - at this point, that will very likely hurt either competition or the game itself, or both. If the Meta should develop to it's best point, every aspect of the game that is available must be studied, tested, and put into action.

In order to not go off course, I'll say this: I believe certain custom moves that give a player character a grievously unfair advantage (i.e.: Gust Cape, Speedy Bike, Decisive Monado Arts, etc.) should be chopped from tournaments at least temporarily, but the others are fine to me.

 

[LancerStaff]

Falco and Ike certainly received some good adjustments, but the others I'm either not confident in or very aware of (though I can say that I don't have hi hopes for Charizard - with his attributes as they are, he could at least use less startup on Rock Smash and/or Flare Blitz or higher jumps, possibly adjusted hitboxes).

That is possible. But once again, some characters have more options than others across the board. And in a game where movement is the best option versus attacking head on, that is paramount. That being the case, assuming two player opponents are on a similar level of skill, a player can use a character that has good offensive or defensive statistics and win, but a player who uses a character with greater agility will be able to wear down the tactics of the other.
There are many ways to accommodate for that situation, but to press down limits further than what has already been done is not one of them - at this point, that will very likely hurt either competition or the game itself, or both.

Zard's Uthrow KOs faster then Mewtwo's on FD, and it still takes him to higher platforms for even quicker kills. Dthrow is an incredible combo move, not sure how long it works though.

And this is all on a character with godly non-tether grab reach.

 

[Kwinston]

That is possible. But once again, some characters have more options than others across the board. And in a game where movement is the best option versus attacking head on, that is paramount. That being the case, assuming two player opponents are on a similar level of skill, a player can use a character that has good offensive or defensive statistics and win, but a player who uses a character with greater agility will be able to wear down the tactics of the other.
There are many ways to accommodate for that situation, but to press down limits further than what has already been done is not one of them - at this point, that will very likely hurt either competition or the game itself, or both. If the Meta is to it's best point, every aspect of the game that is available must be studied, tested, and put into action.

In order to not go off course, I'll say this: I believe certain custom moves that give a player character a grievously unfair advantage (i.e.: Gust Cape, Speedy Bike, Decisive Monado Arts) should be chopped from tournaments at least temporarily, but the others are fine to me.

Yeah, I definitely agree with the part about some custom moves being unfair(you are so good at putting your thoughts into words!).

 

[CaP_Omega]

Zard's Uthrow KOs faster then Mewtwo's on FD, and it still takes him to higher platforms for even quicker kills. Dthrow is an incredible combo move, not sure how long it works though.

And this is all on a character with godly non-tether grab reach.

Ah ha, I forgot about his crazy U-throw. My bad - thank you for reminding me.
. . .
Anyway back to Customs - I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

 

[Wintropy]

I totally advocate banning customs.

I mean, who in their right mind wants characters like Palutena and Doc to have any viable tournament representation? /s

In all seriousness, what purpose would banning customs have? Citing "unfair advantage" as a vindication doesn't cut it, as there are just as many default specials that would easily fit the same criteria.

Banning a few customs and leaving the rest is even more absurd and just manifests its own set of issues. Then we're getting into arbitrary conditionals.

My two cents: if you can deal with default specials, you can deal with customs.

 

[Zerp]

Unfortunately, either with customs on or customs off, some characters will be great and some will be terrible, wherever there's a winner, there's also someone who lost to make that happen, it's a sad fact of our world.

The decision to put them on or off really depends on which characters the Community will end up caring about more, and which ones they are most fine with letting drop into low tier, sad as that is. Once again, for someone to win, someone else has to lose.

I personally stick with customs off, because most of my characters benefit from that environment and are given nothing by customs, thus weakening them indirectly, but I can see why someone would opt for them to be turned on, for they would benefit from the exact opposite.


TLDR: It will always be unfair for someone, regardless of which way you pick.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I am 50:50 on this matter. I mean, I main friggin Kirby, how can i NOT like customs. On the other hand, I actually don't like customs. I'm fighting with myself on this one.

 

[LancerStaff]

I totally advocate banning customs.

I mean, who in their right mind wants characters like Palutena and Doc to have any viable tournament representation? /s

In all seriousness, what purpose would banning customs have? Citing "unfair advantage" as a vindication doesn't cut it, as there are just as many default specials that would easily fit the same criteria.

Banning a few customs and leaving the rest is even more absurd and just manifests its own set of issues. Then we're getting into arbitrary conditionals.

My two cents: if you can deal with default specials, you can deal with customs.

Even without considering subjective things such as how hard it is to deal with them or fun factor, there's still plenty of other problems.

The effort required to use them is great, balance that's either equal or worse then default play and soon to be exasperated by the upcoming patch, and the fact that Japan and mid level players overwhelmingly don't use them creates a rift.

On the other hand, customs off requires no extra effort, the balance won't be overshadowed any time soon and is actively getting better, Japan and new players won't be alienated whatsoever, and it's more accessible to new players simply because there's less moves to deal with.

As somebody who doesn't care gameplay wise about customs, I don't see a single reason to turn them on. Besides Palutena and Doc, what reason do you have?

 

[TakeYourHeart]

Even without considering subjective things such as how hard it is to deal with them or fun factor, there's still plenty of other problems.

The effort required to use them is great, balance that's either equal or worse then default play and soon to be exasperated by the upcoming patch, and the fact that Japan and mid level players overwhelmingly don't use them creates a rift.

On the other hand, customs off requires no extra effort, the balance won't be overshadowed any time soon and is actively getting better, Japan and new players won't be alienated whatsoever, and it's more accessible to new players simply because there's less moves to deal with.

As somebody who doesn't care gameplay wise about customs, I don't see a single reason to turn them on. Besides Palutena and Doc, what reason do you have?

A part of me hopes that eventually Nintendo will release a custom mode in For Glory and For Fun. It wouldn't utilize equipment (that's what For Fun in all it's derpy, ridiculous brilliance is for) but it would allow the moves. That way, everyone can try them out enough in a semi-serious environment.

Sakurai says more game modes are coming, I don't see why that wouldn't be one of them.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

It really depends on the customs.

I mean, I doubt anyone would be mad if one of Pikachu's customs that causes the infinite were to be banned.

 

[shadowmm151]

The only thing I don't like about customs is how long it took to unlock them all.

That's it. There really isn't anything wrong with them otherwise. And nobody should use "too much to learn" as an excuse either. Minus the and all other customs are just variations on the existing specials. They don't take too much time to learn.

Do you realize just how good some characters become with even just ONE custom? Take for instance. His wizard dropkick massively boosts both his approach (and by that extent his neutral) and his recovery. That's just one move! His dark dive is really freaking strong (and a bit higher too) especially since his default upB isn't nearly as effective as . He can even use his multi hit side B instead if you don't like the command grab and all 3 variants of his neutral B are useful depending on what you're looking for. But that wizard dropkick ALONE makes just much, much better.

Sure there are some characters that don't benefit at all, which is unfortunate, but why should the ones that can benefit not be used? Now maybe a handful of individual custom moves should be taken a look at for being banned, but the reality is after gaining familiarity with them they're not nearly as "game-breaking" as initially thought. Like & with there gust cape and storm punch. The windboxes make them seem cheap at first, but when you realize that you can just PUSH against the wind with just barely being moved then you realize they were cheap because it caught you off guard. I personally think only a few customs are bad enough to consider banning. That's these:

counter timber. The tree sucks, but **** that stupid sapling. It's a 15 second permanent banana! The only reason I think it isn't too bad is that it isn't a big deal on a stage with platforms or with a character with a strong air game. Also, since you're going with the tripping sapling you can't camp as good as when you had the regular tree.
Helicopter kick. It's just very easy to combo into at the edge to offstage and is solidly strong.
******** Heavy Skull Bash. **** this move! I thought this move was amazing at first, but I hate that there's literally no negative to using this move. It's fast, always goes the same distance, so there's no reason to ever charge it, and while charging it does make it slightly stronger, it already comes out stupid strong to begin with. This move needs to have a power nerf. I wouldn't mind this move becoming weak, just so I could continue to use the utility the move offers.
The Stupid Egg Lay move that throws you backwards. It's not broken, per se, but the fact that it can catch you off guard and you'll forget to mash to get out of the egg can get you killed way to easy. This move is especially unfair against those with abysmal recovery...like . It's not an awful move, it's more just a "I have problems with this thing."
Jumbo Hoop. It's hitboxes are amazing and it has great priority. Very easy to spam and it's overall just better than default, although you need to watch for the lack of vertical. The fact that can just spam this to rack up solid damage is my main problem with this move.


Anyways. No reason not to play with customs, but I think a couple moves might hit the chopping block if they make the game unfun.

 

[LancerStaff]

A part of me hopes that eventually Nintendo will release a custom mode in For Glory and For Fun. It wouldn't utilize equipment (that's what For Fun in all it's derpy, ridiculous brilliance is for) but it would allow the moves. That way, everyone can try them out enough in a semi-serious environment.

Sakurai says more game modes are coming, I don't see why that wouldn't be one of them.

Sakurai was talking about tournament mode. Doubt there'll be anything not advertised.

 

[TakeYourHeart]

Sakurai was talking about tournament mode. Doubt there'll be anything not advertised.

Hm, he did say modes with an S though.

And keep in mind, if all went according to plan, we would have found out Ryu was dropping the day he was announced, so it's not like there isn't a precedent for wild, sudden turns of events or for Nintendo working on the game for a long time after launch (because DLC when handled right is amazing at making money). Relatively speaking, what I'm suggesting isn't even that bananas and would likely be free (or sold in a bundle with Shantae because who the hell wouldn't buy that).

 

[LancerStaff]

Hm, he did say modes with an S though.

And keep in mind, if all went according to plan, we would have found out Ryu was dropping the day he was announced, so it's not like there isn't a precedent for wild, sudden turns of events or for Nintendo working on the game for a long time after launch (because DLC when handled right is amazing at making money). Relatively speaking, what I'm suggesting isn't even that bananas and would likely be free (or sold in a bundle with Shantae because who the hell wouldn't buy that).

Tournament modes. A traditional bracket style and a style like MK7 and 8's. The idea that Sakurai said there's new, non-tournament modes coming comes from a mangled IGN interview.

Since Sakurai cares so little about custom moves, not giving them to DLC characters and not allowing them online and all, I highly doubt he's suddenly going to change his mind on them. Especially when Japan doesn't use them in tournaments often.

 

[Wintropy]

Even without considering subjective things such as how hard it is to deal with them or fun factor, there's still plenty of other problems.

The effort required to use them is great

If we're banning customs because they're too difficult to use, we may as well ban half the moves in the roster right off the bat.

And that is in itself a subjective issue.

balance that's either equal or worse then default play and soon to be exasperated by the upcoming patch,

Balance equal to default play is not an issue, and who's to say the balance is any worse? Is there a notified rubric by which it's judged?

and the fact that Japan and mid level players overwhelmingly don't use them creates a rift.

Non-Japanese tournaments should not make decisions based on how Japan does things. They have their way, other folks have theirs.

On the other hand, customs off requires no extra effort,

If it requires "extra effort", should the impetus not be on the player to, if you will, git gud? Playing at tourney level requires effort. Top players train with what they've got and are always working to find new techniques to improve their game. Telling them, "No, no, this is too difficult, get back to the shallow end" is actually quite condescending.

the balance won't be overshadowed any time soon and is actively getting better,

Just because there's no precedent for custom moves being affected in a balance patch does not rule out the possibility of it ever occurring.

Japan and new players won't be alienated whatsoever,

If I go to a Japanese tournament and I'm used to playing with customs, would I not feel alienated if I'm told I can't?

Vindicating one ideology as the dominant credo to the detriment of others is vesting more authority in an arbitrary moral paradigm than I am honestly comfortable with.

and it's more accessible to new players simply because there's less moves to deal with.

Your sentiment is noble, albeit misguided. If new players want to play without customs, they can do that. If they are looking to enter a tournament that has customs, then the impetus is, again, on them to learn.

You don't say "no top-tiers in this tournament to make it more accessible to new players". If it's legal, you deal with it.

As somebody who doesn't care gameplay wise about customs, I don't see a single reason to turn them on. Besides Palutena and Doc, what reason do you have?

As somebody who does care gameplay-wise about customs, I can think of many reasons to turn them on.

I'm sure this isn't what you're insinuating, but honestly, if you don't care about them and are not willing to accommodate them into your gameplay, then you're not going to develop a reasonable opinion. At least come into it with an open mind, rather than outright stating you have no desire to use them or intention of embellishing your understanding.

 

[LancerStaff]

If we're banning customs because they're too difficult to use, we may as well ban half the moves in the roster right off the bat.

And that is in itself a subjective issue.



Balance equal to default play is not an issue, and who's to say the balance is any worse? Is there a notified rubric by which it's judged?



Non-Japanese tournaments should not make decisions based on how Japan does things. They have their way, other folks have theirs.



If it requires "extra effort", should the impetus not be on the player to, if you will, git gud? Playing at tourney level requires effort. Top players train with what they've got and are always working to find new techniques to improve their game. Telling them, "No, no, this is too difficult, get back to the shallow end" is actually quite condescending.



Just because there's no precedent for custom moves being affected in a balance patch does not rule out the possibility of it ever occurring.



If I go to a Japanese tournament and I'm used to playing with customs, would I not feel alienated if I'm told I can't?

Vindicating one ideology as the dominant credo to the detriment of others is vesting more authority in an arbitrary moral paradigm than I am honestly comfortable with.



Your sentiment is noble, albeit misguided. If new players want to play without customs, they can do that. If they are looking to enter a tournament that has customs, then the impetus is, again, on them to learn.

You don't say "no top-tiers in this tournament to make it more accessible to new players". If it's legal, you deal with it.



As somebody who does care gameplay-wise about customs, I can think of many reasons to turn them on.

I'm sure this isn't what you're insinuating, but honestly, if you don't care about them and are not willing to accommodate them into your gameplay, then you're not going to develop a reasonable opinion. At least come into it with an open mind, rather than outright stating you have no desire to use them or intention of embellishing your understanding.

I'm talking about setup. Unlocking them, coming to a decision on what's what on however many sets, and continually updating them takes time.

You have any evidence that it's better? Won't be for long, considering the only custom moves that were changed this patch were buffs for already great characters. Between Sakurai calling them "cheating" and that he's balancing for mid-level play (that wouldn't ever consider using customs without equipment) your optimism looks misplaced.

I'm sorry, but how is further dividing a community a good thing whatsoever? Japan has pretty much decided against them while the rest of world is divided.

I have put a good amount of time into them, unlike most naysayers. Still do because at times I feel like the only person who bothers to lab Pit and edgy. I used to like the idea of them, but I'm not impressed anymore. I don't believe there's any advantages (and if so, it's not much), the hope for proper balancing is long dead, and they only create division and waste time.

Although a problem I have with those who argue for both sides is that they act like there's a proper "right" side. There isn't. It's an option, literally.

 

[CaP_Omega]

I'm talking about setup. Unlocking them, coming to a decision on what's what on however many sets, and continually updating them takes time.

You have any evidence that it's better? Won't be for long, considering the only custom moves that were changed this patch were buffs for already great characters. Between Sakurai calling them "cheating" and that he's balancing for mid-level play (that wouldn't ever consider using customs without equipment) your optimism looks misplaced.

I'm sorry, but how is further dividing a community a good thing whatsoever? Japan has pretty much decided against them while the rest of world is divided.

I have put a good amount of time into them, unlike most naysayers. Still do because at times I feel like the only person who bothers to lab Pit and edgy. I used to like the idea of them, but I'm not impressed anymore. I don't believe there's any advantages (and if so, it's not much), the hope for proper balancing is long dead, and they only create division and waste time.

Although a problem I have with those who argue for both sides is that they act like there's a proper "right" side. There isn't. It's an option, literally.

To blame the rest of the world from setting their ways aside from others for the idea that adding more options would take away from competition is unreasonable. The most basic reason for why people are playing Smash at all - let alone any video game that has been made and will be made - is because there are options: attacking is an option, defending is an option, moving is an option - everything you can do is an option. Options add variety, variety makes more reason for things to be tested and and expanded on, and that makes for good competition.

 

[Raijinken]

You have any evidence that it's better? Won't be for long, considering the only custom moves that were changed this patch were buffs for already great characters. Between Sakurai calling them "cheating" and that he's balancing for mid-level play (that wouldn't ever consider using customs without equipment) your optimism looks misplaced.

I have no idea what you consider mid-level play, but that's an absurd claim regardless. Plenty of players of middling skill value customs for being practical and providing visible gameplay variety (and in several cases, effective buffs to bad characters), and will still hate equipment for being random, generally invisible, and taking excess theorycrafting to produce effective results.

That, or my entire group of friends that don't compete in tournaments just got elevated to high-level players.

At this point, the only justifiable reason I can see for banning customs is because if you assume that only high-tiers will be played, and that most high-tiers don't benefit greatly from customs, then it literally just saves time to not run them. And that logic is readily applied to any other aspect of gameplay, so really, I don't think it's relevant (unless we should make Smashville the only legal stage and Sheik the only legal character).

 

[Talpr1]

If what Sakurai says mattered, nobody would play this game competitively. Without actual data suggesting that Donkey Kong or Villager can bull**** past tours with Kong Cyclone or tripping sapling(keyword being bull****ting, not legitimately winning), the only thing against customs is the difficulty into unlocking them, in my opinion.

 

[Zerp]

Just going to put this out there:

​

I feel that far too many people have it backwards on why customs would cause balance problems, it's not the high tier characters that are going to be truly harmed by this, it's the low tier characters that don't get any significant improvements from customs or are heavily affected by things far more widespread in a customs on environment. For example, let's take Little Mac, who with even customs off, is generally agreed upon to be no higher than low-mid at most, and usually put in low tier already. In a customs on environment, Little Mac will actually even more to worry about because of all the custom moves with windboxes that didn't exist prior, and that none of his customs are truly that much of a improvement. Or what about Dedede, while being slightly improved, his customs aren't as big as a buff as most of the rest of the cast gets and don't help his issues at all? My point is, the characters that were already in a bad spot and don't significantly improve from customs, will get left so far behind that they will not be viable at all, which actually limits your options, since you can't pick as many characters and still win at a high level.​

There are of course some merits to customs and they do help some characters out, but I'd like to make this issue known, since it seems no one acknowledges it and only state that "customs improve the balance of the game" which is subjective, as while it may improve some characters it also lessens others, including some that really don't need to be weakened any further.​

Don't let this issue be what completely decides whether or not you approve of custom moves but please acknowledge it's existence, and let it at least be a factor if you truly care about the game's balance.​

 

[Chukkaque]

IMO just have separate tournaments.

Vanilla Singles
Custom Singles - Require people to have to play with a custom build, no vanilla

 

[Raijinken]

IMO just have separate tournaments.

Vanilla Singles
Custom Singles - Require people to have to play with a custom build, no vanilla

Smash in general does not have the playerbase at a competitive level to support two almost entirely separate rulesets for a long period of time while expecting both to thrive. One will fall out of favor, and unfortunately it's bound to be customs since it's the harder one to learn and play.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Smash in general does not have the playerbase at a competitive level to support two almost entirely separate rulesets for a long period of time while expecting both to thrive. One will fall out of favor, and unfortunately it's bound to be customs since it's the harder one to learn and play.

It doesn't exactly help when you're required to unlock as many as 376 different custom special moves.

 

[Doruge]

Jumbo Hoop. It's hitboxes are amazing and it has great priority. Very easy to spam and it's overall just better than default, although you need to watch for the lack of vertical. The fact that can just spam this to rack up solid damage is my main problem with this move.

Yeah let's ban Jumbo Hoop, Wii Fit Trainer doesn't deserve to be mid tier!

 

[YELLO]

If you ban custom moves, why on earth would anyone want to play smash 4 over PM and Melee?????

 

[Raijinken]

If you ban custom moves, why on earth would anyone want to play smash 4 over PM and Melee?????

Robin and Shulk are my reasons.

It doesn't exactly help when you're required to unlock as many as 376 different custom special moves.

It does, however, help when only one person per tournament is actually required to do so, and it can be hacked, skipping the process entirely. I'm not defending the stupidity that is the customs drop system (I ground it out manually on both versions because I'm a completionist, and I don't recommend it to anyone), but when plenty of others have done the work for you... it's a bit like complaining that your Melee setup isn't tournament-capable because you haven't done enough single player to get Final Destination (though on an admittedly larger scale).

Another note from a tournament I ran, I had five setups, only my own of which started with the custom moveset project on it. I just assigned players who used customs to consoles that had them available until I finished putting the customs on all of the setups. Same for stage selection - some didn't have Duck Hunt (one didn't even have Smashville because he hadn't done Event Mode), so I just assigned those consoles to the newbies who weren't going to bother with the stage procedures anyway. Even when most of my attendees approve of customs, only the Palutena main and the Lucina main really required their use (and it's easy to just quick-load a few sets for those to each system).

In short, an ideal setup is not nearly a necessity for a tournament-sufficient setup involving customs.

 

[Luggy]

It's always the same vicious circle when we talk about custom moves.

I'm for custom moves because they make the game fresh. Yeah, it might sound dumb, but I prefer having them for more variety instead of just seeing the same moves, over and over. Of course, some of them are annoying or confusing, but I honnestly don't care because I'm having fun with those moves.

In any case, Nintendo will push customs to be used in tournaments more often. As we can see with EVO, they want this feature to be present and accepted, not rejected like it was just trash added to the game for casual play.

Anyway, I'm for customs, not against them. It's only my personel opinion, feel free to disagree.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Has a infinite if you put the right custom combination on him so yes there should be some banned customs

 

[Raijinken]

Has a infinite if you put the right custom combination on him so yes there should be some banned customs

Zamus had an infinite at release and all suggestions to ban it were thoroughly shut down. If rulesets aren't built to accommodate infinites from default loadouts, I see no reason to rule against Customs that do so.

Also, source? I'm interested to see.

View attachment 58467
It's always the same vicious circle when we talk about custom moves.

I'm for custom moves because they make the game fresh. Yeah, it might sound dumb, but I prefer having them for more variety instead of just seeing the same moves, over and over. Of course, some of them are annoying or confusing, but I honnestly don't care because I'm having fun with those moves.

In any case, Nintendo will push customs to be used in tournaments more often. As we can see with EVO, they want this feature to be present and accepted, not rejected like it was just trash added to the game for casual play.

Anyway, I'm for customs, not against them. It's only my personel opinion, feel free to disagree.

It's kinda hard to tell Nintendo's stance when they've not given new characters customs at all. It could be just NoA trying to push customs. It wouldn't be the first time they tried to push a competitive aspect that Sakurai wants to be for pure fun.

 

[Johns]

None of me

 

[Luggy]

None of me

Maybe you should try to present yourself here before posting anything else.
And...

It's kinda hard to tell Nintendo's stance when they've not given new characters customs at all. It could be just NoA trying to push customs. It wouldn't be the first time they tried to push a competitive aspect that Sakurai wants to be for pure fun.

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure there's influence from Nintendo to add custom moves to the mix at EVO.
Either way, this debate is not progressing very much.

We got three types of people : those who are against customs, those who are for customs, and those who don't care. The problem is nobody wants to agree with other's opinions. Thus, we can't progress. We'll either have persons who are going to try and stop custom moves with other people defending the idea of custom moves on. Or we have the opposite, people who wants customs on, but then people against the idea steps in and rebuts.

We need to come at a conclusion for those custom moves debates. It's not advancing, it's standing still. And that's what annoys me.

But, like always, it's only my humble opinion. Feel free to disagree.