Ban custom moves

[Raijinken]

Maybe you should try to present yourself here before posting anything else.
And...

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure there's influence from Nintendo to add custom moves to the mix at EVO.
Either way, this debate is not progressing very much.

We got three types of people : those who are against customs, those who are for customs, and those who don't care. The problem is nobody wants to agree with other's opinions. Thus, we can't progress. We'll either have persons who are going to try and stop custom moves with other people defending the idea of custom moves on. Or we have the opposite, people who wants customs on, but then people against the idea steps in and rebuts.

We need to come at a conclusion for those custom moves debates. It's not advancing, it's standing still. And that's what annoys me.

But, like always, it's only my humble opinion. Feel free to disagree.

I agree with your opinion, but I think that like almost all bipartisan debates in gaming, the dev will have to step in with a clear solution (for instance, splitting customs and equipment, or something like that) for people to really decide.

 

[stancosmos]

Now im not butt hurt or salty
Im perfectly fine using this on for fun and for glory
Im just saying thats its a unfair advantage in tournaments

My main problem with them is how some characters have great custom moves and some have horrid ones
thoughts?

There is a lot of good arguments for why customs should be allowed (ganon,palutena) and a lot of good reasons why they should be banned (DK,Villager). But this post does a horrible job at trying to sway peoples opinions in either direction.

 

[MockRock]

Honest opinion on customs: I think they should be on by default in every tournament and in online play. There are already different "archetypes" of certain characters due to how freely Smash can be played, and opening up customs only adds to that diversity and individuality. In response to the "some characters have better/unfair customs" argument: this is a solvable issue. If a character has a default move that is cheap or broken, it can be patched. Rather than having custom moves segregated into this weird little corner, I would rather see them as an integral part of the game, and balanced (patched) accordingly. There should be no "default set and the... other ones," there should just be "3 moves per special slot to choose from."

The fact that custom moves are banned in FG and many tournaments, and that DLC characters are left out, really gets on my nerves. This feature was probably the single thing I was the most excited about for Sm4sh, and I haven't been very happy with the way things have been implemented.

 

[Superfiremario]

Why not have seperate tournaments, with some being custom tournaments and some being no custom tournaments? For example, with the big tournaments like EVO and Apex there would be 2 tournaments, one custom and one default. That way if someone doesn't like customs, they can still participate in tournaments, they just don't sign up for the custom tournaments.

 

[MockRock]

Why not have seperate tournaments, with some being custom tournaments and some being no custom tournaments? For example, with the big tournaments like EVO and Apex there would be 2 tournaments, one custom and one default. That way if someone doesn't like customs, they can still participate in tournaments, they just don't sign up for the custom tournaments.

Sure, that is one way to do it, but I don't honestly really understand why this needs to be the case. If there is just one custom moveset that is obviously the ideal one, then why not just consider that to be the "default" set for that character? Why does there need to be a distinction at all?

 

[Superfiremario]

Because the game classifies them as default and most people find theirselves most used to that version of the character, and don't want to have to learn more moves. I'm personally fine with customs and I enjoy using them though.

 

[Storm Erion]

I don't really use customs myself, and I personally don't really like them, but it seems like customs is the way to go because more people are pushing for them to be allowed (with good reasons).

I may not personally like them, but it's still Smash 4, I love the game, and I want to see it grow, and I'm willing to put my dislike for customs aside for the sake of the game's future.

 

[Zionaze]

tbh I'm too lazy to remember what customs other character have. First time i played against a custom palutena I got bopped by lightweight.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm honestly not a fan of customs in general.
One issue that I have with the customs is that some customs make certain matchups very unfair or certain customs are completely unfair. Donkey Kong's cyclone custom, many of Villager's customs (such as Counter Timber and Exploding Balloons), and Shulk's Power Vision can give them more of the advantage or have properties that are very ridiculous (Shulk killed me at 66% by countering a Fireball with Power Vision).
One prime example that I can think of for making matchups more like hell is the Robin vs. Rosalina matchup. Rosalina easily wins it with her Luma giving her guard and being able to just nullify Robin's projectiles with Gravitational Pull, but it becomes worse when Robin has a lot of trouble dealing with Rosa's Star Bits custom that gives her a projectile that moves across FD.
Not only that, but some customs for characters are pretty damn worthless. As a Luigi main, most of them are honestly useless to me and are inferior to his regular moves; Quick Missile is the best one he has, but even that is risky if you go under the stage with it.

Customs were something that I dreaded and my fears were justified when the game was released. I am more in favor of banning custom moves entirely from competitive play or just ban certain custom moves.

 

[Luggy]

On second thought, I think custom moves would have needed much more developpement.

On paper, it's a great idea : every character has an alternative way to deal with other characters. On practice though, custom moves aren't really solid. Some are too good, while others are either too wierd, obsolete or just bad.
You can also feel that some characters profits more of them, or just had more work. The two obvious ones are Mario and Palutena. For Mario, it's totally normal, he is the most balanced character in the roster, so he needs equal moves. He only has one "bad" custom move, but it was probably meant to be used in doubles or free for all.
Palutena however is the weird choice and feels more like Sakurai trying to promoting both the character and custom moves. She's the only "normal" character to have totally new custom moves, with new animations and all that nice stuff.
The Miis are different, since they are meant to be the "way to have your fav' in the game, even if he couldn't make it in the game". So at least here, it's totally understandable.

The problem with custom moves is the unequal effort that was put into them. Thus, we either have too good or too worthless moves. If Sakurai's team did the same job that they did with Palutena with every other characters, maybe custom moves would have been more balanced, thus easier to put in competitive play.

I'm still for custom moves, but perfectly understand why people reject them. If there's a fifth smash game one day, the developpers need to put more focus on the custom moves. Making them unique and balanced. Yes, it's hard to make 12 unique moves for each characters, but it would make them easier to understand. We need real work on them, not a rushed feature that is now left out for DLC characters.

I'm sad to say this, but I don't see custom moves making the cut for too long. Most people agree to just put them off. And, in all honnesty, it's not that big of a deal. It's just sad to see a feature that could have worked, wasted by both the community and developpers as well.

Feel free to disagree, it's only my opinion.

 

[MockRock]

I'm honestly not a fan of customs in general.
One issue that I have with the customs is that some customs make certain matchups very unfair or certain customs are completely unfair. Donkey Kong's cyclone custom, many of Villager's customs (such as Counter Timber and Exploding Balloons), and Shulk's Power Vision can give them more of the advantage or have properties that are very ridiculous (Shulk killed me at 66% by countering a Fireball with Power Vision)....

What you're describing is a balance issue, not an issue with the concept of custom moves. If a character has a move that is overpowered, then it can be balanced, whether it's a custom move or not. I agree that the current balance isn't fantastic in all cases, but Nintendo could definitely solve that, and probably will at some point.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

DLC characters not having customs moves pretty much kills the custom meta IMO. Not only will and others to come will have far less options to pick from the rest of the cast, you still have the fact that some lower tier characters like also doesn't really benefit from customs. Then you have characters like getting even stronger then their vanilla parts, while also having toxic moves like Windy Box Kong, Stalliger, Head smash,, Helicopter Kick, etc...
DLC Characters not having customs already is a killer for Smash 4 growing if a customs meta were to be standard, and you would still have to deal with wind boxes, moves, and top tiers becoming stronger while even some low tiers get no benefits from customs. Customs are also a hassle to freaking acquire which also hinders Smash 4 from growing. I can't see a reason on how customs bring more benefits then cons when it's clear the cons are not only bad but annoying. Customs weren't intended to be balanced and it's obvious as to why, they were made for fun. I don't understand how people can be like "nerf sheik, luigi, rosa, diddy etc.." and then want to have a custom meta that barely gets patched at all

 

[Doruge]

dumb

DLC characters' lack of customs doesn't affect any other character. I don't see why characters like Palutena and Miis have to be forced into trash tier just because Ryu has "less options" than them.

And I like how you just hand-picked the "low tiers" (MK is low tier?) that don't benefit from customs while completely ignoring all of the ones that do.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

DLC characters' lack of customs doesn't affect any other character. I don't see why characters like Palutena and Miis have to be forced into trash tier just because Ryu has "less options" than them.

And I like how you just hand-picked the "low tiers" (MK is low tier?) that don't benefit from customs while completely ignoring all of the ones that do.

Well you missed my point.
I don't see why 4 characters ( and more are soon to come, mostly like 7,8 characters) have to be handicapped in a competitive environment. The fact that these characters have no customs only makes the custom meta eve more unbalanced than it already is. The whole "hand-picked" low tiers were just to point out that some characters that "lower" in the tier list don't benefits from customs because some people believe "lower tiers all get good in customs meta", making them further decrease in viability. Also Palutena and the Mii's were never "forced" into trash tier at all, this was how they were made to be, regardless if they ended up bad, and this is the vanilla meta..The meta sakurai is patching. The point of the matter still stands. Newcomers to smash 4 will dislike a customs meta because 1.) and others to come will automatically be in their vanilla forms, never having a custom form. People are basically saying "These characters are allowed to have customs while all the DLC characters (4 atm but their will be more mind you) cannot, deal with it". The only way for the customs meta to not be outright unbalanced is if all the DLC are banned... and you already know that's a bad idea to begin with. Are you telling me we should favor some characters but forget the others? The customs meta is hypocritical to itself because the whole point of giving more options is killed by the fact DLC doesn't get customs decreasing options. Also mind you some characters in the custom meta also doesn't benefit with it being on.

2.) There are certain strategies that are considered boring for the majority viewers to watch and are annoying/toxic for players. Before long people will be complaining about their mains on how "my character can't handle Stalliger, Wind box kong, helicopter kick, etc." Like literally who want to see stalliger, or donkey kong spamming kong cyclone.

3.) The custom meta not only benefits lower tiers, but also top/tiers as well, while ALSO some characters in the tier list(low tier, mid tier, high tier, top tier" do not benefit from customs. If this doesn't scream unbalanced to me I don't know what does.

4.) Customs were not made to be used competitively. This is pretty simple and obvious; not only are a lot of customs are useless in a 1v1 setting but they are very hard to acquire. The very fact that the customs that you already unlocked are sometime unlocked again only aids in the frustration. If customs were made to be competitive, they would've gave EVERY character in the game valid options, yes every character cause that's only fair right? Their will always be top tiers in smash because this game is catered to a free-for-all setting so don't give me the "we want everyone to be viable" truth is, not everyone is going to be viable regardless if it's in customs meta or vanilla meta. Patches help reduce the strain top tiers have on the cast but this game is only going to get patch a few more times, maybe not at all.

Yes, I understand that characters like Palutena, Mii's and others get better in a customs meta, but you cannot be oblivious to the various cons custom has on the smash scene and meta. Japan being non-custom meta is huge since it appears that sakurai makes changes based on japan meta which is evident in how their are still toxic customs in the customs meta. We're trying to make the smash 4 scene grow, so why give newcomers such a hassle by having a customs meta ^_^. I would be okay with customs if it weren't for the fact they were made for fun, not competitive. Why try to implement something that is meant for fun into a competitive scene; it's not going to work out well.

 

[Doruge]

If you honestly believe that Palutena and the Miis were MADE to be forced into 1111, then I don't really know what to say to you.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I legit said "this was how they were made to be, regardless if they ended up bad, and this is the ->Vanilla Meta <-''. In the vanilla meta, yes they were made like that for the Vanilla meta lol; Mii's are an entirely different case since they can be argued as The custom character and should be allowed to have any combination in the vanilla meta. Also Palutena is forced into being without customs in For Glory and the default MII's (the one's with the standard face) are outright banned in For Glory. There is a reason why they didn't put customs options. No characters except DLC characters are made to be forced into 1111, however it is clear that in For Glory, the intended "competitive" ranked/recorded battles, they are not. For Glory in general shouldn't be mentioned in a competitive scene however we can see that Sakurai didn't design customs to be used in a competitive scene. Customs would just cause to much strife in the scene as it already has.

 

[Doruge]

For Glory in general shouldn't be mentioned in a competitive scene

You say this AFTER using For Glory as a means of furthering your argument? It doesn't matter what's allowed on For Glory, you seem to realize this yet you still used it as an arguing point....

 

[garchomp4smash]

To be honest with you if i was maining anyone other then lucario i would want custom moves. I also agree with you guys about the variety but custom moves should be kept in casual play. Not in tournies where even a second matters
But for real some people have amazing customs

Mii brawler: FLAMING DROP KICK

 

[KnightofPizza]

Dong Kong Cyclone has Super Armor AND windboxes. Ergo, it is the most stupid thing in existence.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Whether or not customs should be banned depends on who they main though, lol. Useally it's bias though. Main Mega Man? Customs shouldn't be on. Main Kirby or Donkey Kong or Pikachu? Customs on. People's opinions go on who they main, so bias determines whether or not they stay or not.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Why just not banning certain customs? It's easy and quick. Also, if we know what are the "OP" moves, let's do our best to defend from those. If you know when your opponent will do the "Dong-Blade: Let it expand!", punish it as you block. I know it demands patience, but it's the best way to do it.

 

[Roukiske]

Why just not banning certain customs? It's easy and quick. Also, if we know what are the "OP" moves, let's do our best to defend from those. If you know when your opponent will do the "Dong-Blade: Let it expand!", punish it as you block. I know it demands patience, but it's the best way to do it.

This has been suggested many many times, but the issue here is that its a community thing. Who's to say move X is bannable? Player 1 might think it's OP but player 2 says otherwise. A ton of people play this game and I think it's only fair that many get to have their say. Now I'm not saying any you lovely people on here are fools, but we can't ignore that some people will just have extremely stupid opinions on what is bannable. Some of the same people want rolls more punishable (If I can punish rolls with Rest then it's punishable enough). So should we ask the pro's? Well we can't ALWAYS trust them. TO's? Well actually I would trust respected TO's. It's their rules afterall right?

It's not a bad idea that's for sure, but it certainly is not easy.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

This has been suggested many many times, but the issue here is that its a community thing. Who's to say move X is bannable? Player 1 might think it's OP but player 2 says otherwise. A ton of people play this game and I think it's only fair that many get to have their say. Now I'm not saying any you lovely people on here are fools, but we can't ignore that some people will just have extremely stupid opinions on what is bannable. Some of the same people want rolls more punishable (If I can punish rolls with Rest then it's punishable enough). So should we ask the pro's? Well we can't ALWAYS trust them. TO's? Well actually I would trust respected TO's. It's their rules afterall right?

It's not a bad idea that's for sure, but it certainly is not easy.

I think you're the one who quoted my post on other thread! Surely, many people have questionable opinions; and that's the biggest problem on this subject...
Personally, I think everything could be better if we adapted to these, but banning some could be better if we want a consensus.

 

[Roukiske]

I think you're the one who quoted my post on other thread! Surely, many people have questionable opinions; and that's the biggest problem on this subject...
Personally, I think everything could be better if we adapted to these, but banning some could be better if we want a consensus.

Yeah sometimes I say the same stuff on other threads :D

Anyways, adapting is a good idea. I wouldn't mind having everything on at first and letting time tell us what really is an issue. Just an idea, even doing this can mess up some tourney results.

 

[allison]

Saying that are irrelevant in a game with customs is a bit like saying that are irrelevant in a game with projectiles.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Just going to put this out there:

​

I feel that far too many people have it backwards on why customs would cause balance problems, it's not the high tier characters that are going to be truly harmed by this, it's the low tier characters that don't get any significant improvements from customs or are heavily affected by things far more widespread in a customs on environment. For example, let's take Little Mac, who with even customs off, is generally agreed upon to be no higher than low-mid at most, and usually put in low tier already. In a customs on environment, Little Mac will actually even more to worry about because of all the custom moves with windboxes that didn't exist prior, and that none of his customs are truly that much of a improvement. Or what about Dedede, while being slightly improved, his customs aren't as big as a buff as most of the rest of the cast gets and don't help his issues at all? My point is, the characters that were already in a bad spot and don't significantly improve from customs, will get left so far behind that they will not be viable at all, which actually limits your options, since you can't pick as many characters and still win at a high level.​

There are of course some merits to customs and they do help some characters out, but I'd like to make this issue known, since it seems no one acknowledges it and only state that "customs improve the balance of the game" which is subjective, as while it may improve some characters it also lessens others, including some that really don't need to be weakened any further.​

Don't let this issue be what completely decides whether or not you approve of custom moves but please acknowledge it's existence, and let it at least be a factor if you truly care about the game's balance.​

Never thought if it that way. That's true though, it would still not be balanced anyway.

Anyway, I liked the idea of customs, but after seeing how much it tears people apart in a sort of war fashion, and the fact that apprantatly the fact that apprantatly Sakurai considered it "cheating" as above, plus the fact that some top tiers get even better, while some low tiers get even worse, I really don't even know anymore. Is it even worth it? These arguements are really tireing.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Dong Kong Cyclone has Super Armor AND windboxes. Ergo, it is the most stupid thing in existence.

And yet it's not even fool-proof, as simply grabbing Donkey Kong shuts down the move before it actually deals any damage.

 

[prfarb]

I think customs should be banned for now. Let the meta-game settle out and then start to mix in customs. I do not see any reason this issue needs to be decided now.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Dude, if your main has sucky customs THEN CHOOSE THE DEFAULT! NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PLAY CUSTOMS!

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Dude, if your main has sucky customs THEN CHOOSE THE DEFAULT! NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PLAY CUSTOMS!

To be fair, I think a lot of the argument comes from the widespread fact that a lot of characters don't benefit, while others get buffed pretty hard (some toxic) with customs.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To be fair, I think a lot of the argument comes from the widespread fact that a lot of characters don't benefit, while others get buffed pretty hard (some toxic) with customs.

Some characters do need the customs to do better overall. Ganondorf's recovery is very predictable and poor under normal circumstances, but Wizard's Dropkick does give him more horizontal distance while in the air, while Dark Fists makes up for Dark Dive's lack of KO potential.

 

[KnightofPizza]

I think that the only option that everyone could potentially agree on is to ban the use of certain customs and not others.

 

[shadowmm151]

You know...I've been watching this thread for a while now and it's really sort of funny. Everyone has their own opinion, but no one really wants to budge...then again that's what a discussion really is.

That being said, I'm getting tired of hearing, "It's takes too much effort to learn ALL of them."

Really? Almost everyone's customs are the EXACT SAME MOVE with altered properties. Maybe it loses strength for speed of gains recovery for a loss of power. Maybe it gets a windbox, maybe it alters a trajectory, maybe etc. etc. etc.

It's the same moves guys. They just work slightly differently. Didn't we have to relearn from Brawl to Smash 4? We complained, but we did it right? This is on a MUCH smaller scale. It's just a handful of moves and with as much talk as there's been on this site there's no way you won't learn about them. Is there ANYBODY who doesn't know about wizard dropkick by now? I'm thinking probably not. Customs definitely balance the game A LOT more by including a larger portion of the cast in terms of viability. Also, it's not like higher tier characters who don't really benefit from customs won't still be good. None of their tools changed you know. They'll just have a handful of less advantageous MUs.

Also, to those of you who want to wait and establish the meta-game before messing with customs, that's a big NO-NO. The reason being because if customs ARE implemented in tournaments then Nintendo will see it and the potentially broken customs will be brought to their attention. This means a too powerful custom might garner some balance tweaks in a patch. If we were to wait a year for the meta to develop and then began customs, Nintendo might be done with balance patches by that point and none of these problems could be addressed and some select moves might get banned. That being said, if something turns out to be unhealthy for the meta then a ban of that particular move should occur. Most of the moves are pretty fair after you gain some familiarity with them though.

Finally, for all of you complaining that the DLC characters are at a disadvantage, I think you should pump the breaks and realize that not every character is going to NEED customs. Most mains I see just stick with default at tourneys. In fact, does anyone think HAVE to run customs to perform well still? They're still good guys, customs won't change that. Remember, you only have FOUR special moves. You have a dozen normal attacks and your normals are what you're going to use most of the time too. I'm sure will perform the same even with customs on. Remember it's not like every attendant at a tourney is suddenly going to become amazing just because customs are now on. There will just be an increase in variety.

Lastly, I hope that people can stop complaining about the unlocking process too. Yes, it takes time to unlock them, but you only NEED to unlock the customs for your mains remember? Or for a recurring sparring partners mains too. There ARE ways to single out what character special gets dropped. As for tourneys, it only takes 1 console with customs to set up the other consoles. It can be done quickly too.

Honestly, I feel that anyone who complains about customs is just not willing to learn them. It's lazy. And that's fine if you want to be lazy, but don't make claims that too much work is why they shouldn't be legal...that's just stupid.

 

[blackghost]

"4.) Customs were not made to be used competitively. This is pretty simple and obvious; not only are a lot of customs are useless in a 1v1 setting but they are very hard to acquire."
I am so sick of proving this argument false. Custom moves have been nerfed and bbffed just as default moves have been aas well. Clearly nintendo views them the same so why all the pushback? Also this particulary argument is weak because you want to ban moves because you deem them useless in 1v1? thats absurd Falcon punch, zelda knight, ect these moves aren't banned its ridiculous to suggest that the custom moves should be banned.
Most anti custom arguments i see on this forum anbd other places are EXECUSES: "I don't want to learn the matchup, my character doesn't get anything, this has a windbox it OP, I didn't know so its jank, ect."
If you don't know about strong custom moves by now you are choosing not to know. Information about these moves in lcuding frame data is available online. the windbox argument is equally weak becaus ethere are NORMALS (game and watch up b and bowser dair to name two) that have windboxes. Intelligent players arguing for customs aren't saying it makes everyone viable they are saying having options and the ability to adapt thier character to a matchup is good for the metagame and how could it not? if a villager is fighting marth why would he want pocket over garden, why would palutena ever want to run the worst counter in the history of smash? Why can't falcon change to heavy raptor boost in order to fight an aggressive shiek?
and as many people have said the moves aren't that different. Mortal kombat X has HUGE differences between its versions of each character and the smash 4 community as a whole continues to drag its feet on accepting the biggest innovation in the series since melee.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

"4.) Customs were not made to be used competitively. This is pretty simple and obvious; not only are a lot of customs are useless in a 1v1 setting but they are very hard to acquire."
I am so sick of proving this argument false. Custom moves have been nerfed and bbffed just as default moves have been aas well. Clearly nintendo views them the same so why all the pushback? Also this particulary argument is weak because you want to ban moves because you deem them useless in 1v1? thats absurd Falcon punch, zelda knight, ect these moves aren't banned its ridiculous to suggest that the custom moves should be banned.
Most anti custom arguments i see on this forum anbd other places are EXECUSES: "I don't want to learn the matchup, my character doesn't get anything, this has a windbox it OP, I didn't know so its jank, ect."
If you don't know about strong custom moves by now you are choosing not to know. Information about these moves in lcuding frame data is available online. the windbox argument is equally weak becaus ethere are NORMALS (game and watch up b and bowser dair to name two) that have windboxes. Intelligent players arguing for customs aren't saying it makes everyone viable they are saying having options and the ability to adapt thier character to a matchup is good for the metagame and how could it not? if a villager is fighting marth why would he want pocket over garden, why would palutena ever want to run the worst counter in the history of smash? Why can't falcon change to heavy raptor boost in order to fight an aggressive shiek?
and as many people have said the moves aren't that different. Mortal kombat X has HUGE differences between its versions of each character and the smash 4 community as a whole continues to drag its feet on accepting the biggest innovation in the series since melee.

You missed my point.....

"This is pretty simple and obvious; not only are a lot of customs are useless in a 1v1 setting but they are very hard to acquire."

This was just to back-up my claim that customs weren't made to be competitive. Most customs benefit in a FFA environment where they can actually be used to decent effect where most are just bad in a 1v1 setting and the legit fact that you unlock repeat customs when trying to farm for them just like trophies . I never even said that I wanted customs banned because they are useless in a 1v1, you just implied that for some reason 0_0. That part of the post was just support to back up my point of view on that customs aren't intended to be used competitively due to the way they function in a competitive aspect. My Point of View was that Customs were not made to be competitive and I gave my supportive detail on my view. Why would I want to ban custom that aren't even good, that doesn't make sense.

DLC characters actually get worse in a customs meta due to the fact that other characters gets more options towards them while they have no other option but to use their 1111 move set. Which means that characters like and other DLC to come all have WORSE Match-Ups solely due to the fact that the rest of the cast has even more options to counteract their move set. Whether you like it or not DLC characters do not benefit from customs at all. BTW I am not pro-custom or anti-custom as I am more in the middle per se. I want to use customs because I like using Samus. However I also see the cons and pros of custom, I have weighed them both and I believe the cons outweighs the pros sadly.

 

[Crow!]

I think EVO showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are no balance problems with custom moves, and tournaments throughout the country have shown that there is no logistics problem with running tournaments with customs.

Custom moves do increase the barrier for entry for a new player - practically speaking, you can't even play with customs until you've brought your Wii U to a tournament to get them added to your game, because collecting them is just not practical. This is no issue for a player who is serious about trying to win.

Custom moves change the game's design by a bit. Some projectile, trap, and charge based game plans become stronger. Some people dislike these sorts of strategies, but EVO shows pretty clearly that none of those strategies break the game; if you want to play a rushdown, you can still do that and still achieve great success (and win big bucks).

Frankly, the only argument against customs that I could see being made at this point would be that "custom moves make so little of a difference that they're not worth the effort." But I've not actually seen that complaint raised by those calling for their removal, so I see no reason for customs to go away.

 

[neohopeSTF]

I think that the only option that everyone could potentially agree on is to ban the use of certain customs and not others.

That would be terrible. Who decides what is OP and what is not?

 

[Raijinken]

I think EVO showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are no balance problems with custom moves, and tournaments throughout the country have shown that there is no logistics problem with running tournaments with customs.

Custom moves do increase the barrier for entry for a new player - practically speaking, you can't even play with customs until you've brought your Wii U to a tournament to get them added to your game, because collecting them is just not practical. This is no issue for a player who is serious about trying to win.

Custom moves change the game's design by a bit. Some projectile, trap, and charge based game plans become stronger. Some people dislike these sorts of strategies, but EVO shows pretty clearly that none of those strategies break the game; if you want to play a rushdown, you can still do that and still achieve great success (and win big bucks).

Frankly, the only argument against customs that I could see being made at this point would be that "custom moves make so little of a difference that they're not worth the effort." But I've not actually seen that complaint raised by those calling for their removal, so I see no reason for customs to go away.

A player who intends to compete but can't be bothered to play the game enough to get customs (especially a "new player", who in most cases will not ignore single player content) will probably not be threatening enough in either meta (I'm aware there exist diehard competitives who jump into a game and start practicing their B&Bs, but those are gonna have trouble unlocking characters and stages too, for that matter). But like you said, a player trying to win will do what it takes to practice to win. Even from a practice standpoint, though, it's the exact same as living in an area (or playing in a group) without diverse character representation. I can run circles around any Fire Emblem character since half my group uses them, but I literally don't personally know an Olimar player, and thus it's impossible to practice. But that difficulty of practice doesn't mean I think Olimar should be banned.

As someone who fully unlocked, manually, both my 3DS and my Wii U, I'd say it's practical. It's ANNOYING, but it's practical, and plenty of people elsewhere on these boards have come up with even easier tricks for unlocking them completely passively.

As for "customs don't matter so save the effort", I actually know several people who think thus (my brother being one of them). I've seen the view shared by a handful on the boards as well. But it's hard to look at Wii Fit Trainer and Palutena making solid (but not victorious) ranks at EVO and say they make "little" difference.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

Well customs give more variety to the game...

 

[blackghost]

A player who intends to compete but can't be bothered to play the game enough to get customs (especially a "new player", who in most cases will not ignore single player content) will probably not be threatening enough in either meta (I'm aware there exist diehard competitives who jump into a game and start practicing their B&Bs, but those are gonna have trouble unlocking characters and stages too, for that matter). But like you said, a player trying to win will do what it takes to practice to win. Even from a practice standpoint, though, it's the exact same as living in an area (or playing in a group) without diverse character representation. I can run circles around any Fire Emblem character since half my group uses them, but I literally don't personally know an Olimar player, and thus it's impossible to practice. But that difficulty of practice doesn't mean I think Olimar should be banned.

As someone who fully unlocked, manually, both my 3DS and my Wii U, I'd say it's practical. It's ANNOYING, but it's practical, and plenty of people elsewhere on these boards have come up with even easier tricks for unlocking them completely passively.

As for "customs don't matter so save the effort", I actually know several people who think thus (my brother being one of them). I've seen the view shared by a handful on the boards as well. But it's hard to look at Wii Fit Trainer and Palutena making solid (but not victorious) ranks at EVO and say they make "little" difference.

I'm starting to hear that too its an even weaker argument. Some people say they wish customs had as much thought in them as palutena, to that I only had two repsonses:
Palutena may be one of sakurai's favorite characters. Though in brawl i thought it confirmed MK.
and secondly is custom moves were all unique we'd have an even HARDER time pushing them in. To this day when i watch custom tournments people still dont know the difference between lightweight and super speed and she calls them OUTLOUD. Becuase the moves aren't unique makes it better and easier for the community to learn compared to mortal kombat x or skullgirls we have it easy.