Ban custom moves

[allison]

I think customs should be banned for now. Let the meta-game settle out and then start to mix in customs. I do not see any reason this issue needs to be decided now.

That's not how it should work. Unbanning something is MUCH harder than banning it.

 

[Raijinken]

That's not how it should work. Unbanning something is MUCH harder than banning it.

History proves this extremely well, as has been discussed in numerous other threads months ago.

Or maybe we should ban Sheik for now, let the rest of the metagame settle, and THEN start making her legal. /s

 

[Steelballray]

There will never ever be a balanced fighting game. Ever. Your attempts to make some characters viable is just going to worsen the position of many other characters as well. You're being counter productive and this cause of yours is nothing but a step backward.

One point that I loved about smash is how straightforward it is. With costumes on characters change drastically. They basically become different characters altogether. And theres also the thing about counterpicking characters with certain costumes. Of course you can say that counterpicking characters with other characters will always exist but its NOT the same. A straightforward game like Smash becomes more complicated than damn chess. The "My enemy has this move so I'll pick that costume" ordeal doesn't sound fun at all. It sounds like a damn chore and this game is going will end up being anything but smash.

 

[STOB]

So my big issue with customs has always been that the logistics of unlocking the moves for each setup is a logistical nightmare for a tournament of any size. However, I was told by another player at a recent local that you can import save data from a fully unlocked 3DS version? The implication being that you can quickly get every setup to have every unlock using only one 3DS even for a large tournament.

Can anyone confirm this? Anyone with TO experience have insight into how difficult this may or may not be? Would this change anyone's mind about customs?

 

[DakotaBonez]

The main reason people are against customs is that the majority don't want to grind for them in the less fun side modes. Especially when they aren't always guaranteed.
Unfortunately, until all custom moves can be unlocked by means of a hack, exploit or save transfer, customs will not become widespread. Its a shame too because they are arguably the most interesting mechanic added to smash 4.
What is it with japanese game designers and this awful grinding system? A clearly defined task is given to you to unlock said item, but there's only a small chance that you will get it. We also see this in Splatoon gear abilities and Monster Hunter wound carves. However, it does make you incredibly skilled at a mundane task.

 

[STOB]

The main reason people are against customs is that the majority don't want to grind for them in the less fun side modes. Especially when they aren't always guaranteed.
Unfortunately, until all custom moves can be unlocked by means of a hack, exploit or save transfer, customs will not become widespread. Its a shame too because they are arguably the most interesting mechanic added to smash 4.
What is it with japanese game designers and this awful grinding system? A clearly defined task is given to you to unlock said item, but there's only a small chance that you will get it. We also see this in Splatoon gear abilities and Monster Hunter wound carves.

That's why I'm curious about this theoretical 3DS save transfer. (See previous post)

 

[Sonic94]

Now im not butt hurt or salty
Im perfectly fine using this on for fun and for glory
Im just saying thats its a unfair advantage in tournaments

My main problem with them is how some characters have great custom moves and some have horrid ones
thoughts?

Custom or no Customs some characters have good specials and some do not.

My problem with customs on is that they can be unlocked twice and can't be used online which makes them impractical to learn.

 

[TRYHARD86]

Please lets ban all customs and Halberd. Really don't like either

 

[allison]

Please lets ban all customs and Halberd. Really don't like either

I don't have to take that from a TRYHARD!

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

We ban things in tournament play because they are broken, not because it causes more matchup research, not because YOU don't like it, and not because someone hasn't unlocked something in their game. If customs are broken then by all means ban them... But not without a fair trial.

"Legal until proven broken"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I feel like smash wiiU has lost touch with this concept. I remember when everyone was crying for the ban hammer on lil Mac because of his KO punch and superior frame data. Boy did we have it backwards lol... You see, I don't think we can say for sure whether something is broken until it is put to competitive test (tournaments) and it comes out on top. Mac is considered trash now by most people because when we see one most people know how to play around his strengths. EVO allowed customs and we didn't see anything broken, therefore if you follow the "legal until proven broken" logic, then you must assert that SO FAR we don't have evidence to convict the customs of being broken.


So far we haven't been given a reason not to embrace customs. "THATS TO MUCH MATCHUP RESEARCH I HAVE TO DO." So if the next smash has 100 character we should ban half of them for matchup simplicity? "THE META WILL BE TO DYNAMIC." Do you think melee players give two ****s that only and handful of their characters can put a dent in fox? "I HAVENT UNLOCKED ALL THE CUSTOMS YET" well I never unlocked all the stages in brawl so what. "CUSTOMS ARENT BEING PATCHED." this is slightly untrue, but do you think the brawl or melee players cared that their games didn't get patched? Some characters got the short end of the default move stick, it happens.

We need to stop crying for rules and patches to make things fair and just play the f***ing game. Somone finds a good strategy? Find a way around it! We have become lazy as a community and act like we need to be spoon fed.

This shouldn't be a subjective debate, it should be is "X" broken? Let's test it... Well the competitive test proved that "X" was beatable by using "Y." Will every character have access to "Y"? No, but we didn't base fox's viability in melee by what Y's pichu had.

Let's stop trying to fix problems before we even know if they are problems guys. Customs could be what make sm4sh as memorable as melee. Customs will keep sm4sh interesting for a lot longer.

I think the reason people don't like customs is because they haven't seen them and don't know how to deal with them. It's the ignorance of others rather than the strength of the move that makes customs seem jank. Honestly I feel like this whole debate could have been thwarted if Sakuri had put a custom for glory online from the start. Then people would be used to them and not so terrified that their perfectly balanced meta (I say dripping with sarcasm) will be ruined.

 

[STOB]

Of course Zero's opinion should not be the deciding factor in this debate, however I think this is telling of the future of customs. He just now said this on his reddit AMA.

 

[Steelballray]

Of course Zero's opinion should not be the deciding factor in this debate, however I think this is telling of the future of customs. He just now said this on his reddit AMA.

Word up! I also again want to point out that the mentality that we will be going for if costumes become the main thing is going to suck. Picking certain costumes to beat certain characters is just outright nonsmash like and should be considered too much of a hassle.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Word up! I also again want to point out that the mentality that we will be going for if costumes become the main thing is going to suck. Picking certain costumes to beat certain characters is just outright nonsmash like and should be considered too much of a hassle.

The entire idea of a meta game is to find strategies that beat other strategies. People already counter pick by choosing a different character when your opponent beats you with one. Also to say that it "just isn't smash" you would have to define in words what exactly "smash" is, and that isn't realistic.

Can the people joining this thread just read my above post and give me one good reason as to why they should be banned? Keeping in mind that we don't ban things because you don't like it, we ban because something is unfair. If you just don't like it than you should probably play melee, or brawl. Sm4sh is different, stop trying to turn it into a game that it isn't. Brawl is different from melee in the same way that sm4sh is different from the other two. Games evolve. What we thought smash was in the N64 era is WILDLY different from what it is in the GameCube era. Is it really fair to ignore roughly half of what the developers worked on just because YOU want it to be more like another game?(brawl, melee). Either you accept this game and it's entirety or play a different smash.... But whatever happens for god sakes don't stop playing smash games.

 

[Steelballray]

The entire idea of a meta game is to find strategies that beat other strategies. People already counter pick by choosing a different character when your opponent beats you with one. Also to say that it "just isn't smash" you would have to define in words what exactly "smash" is, and that isn't realistic.

Can the people joining this thread just read my above post and give me one good reason as to why they should be banned? Keeping in mind that we don't ban things because you don't like it, we ban because something is unfair. If you just don't like it than you should probably play melee, or brawl. Sm4sh is different, stop trying to turn it into a game that it isn't. Brawl is different from melee in the same way that sm4sh is different from the other two. Games evolve. What we thought smash was in the N64 era is WILDLY different from what it is in the GameCube era. Is it really fair to ignore roughly half of what the developers worked on just because YOU want it to be more like another game?(brawl, melee). Either you accept this game and it's entirety or play a different smash.... But whatever happens for god sakes don't stop playing smash games.

Counter picking characters with characters is much simpler and much more direct than doing so with costumes. It will turn into chess. "I will pick this costume to beat that move" and the enemy would go with a different costume to counter that. It's not fun. It's like chess. Smash is supposed to be much simpler than that. If any mind games should be involved, I want them to be when the match start not before it. Also, if you want a good reason costumes should be banned, its because some of them are OP. no character in the game is outright OP. but with costumes you have to ban this and that and go into arguments about why this is OP and why that isn't. Why go through the hassle? To make some characters able to be compatitve? If that's your purpose for supporting meta than I'm sorry but you're stabbing yourself in the butt. Some characters will benefit from them but some others will go down on the ranking even more. Balance will not be there either way and I could argue that it would be even worse with costumes. Whatever kind of meta costumes will bring it will be one that's full of needless headaches and no real improvement or fun.

 

[Steelballray]

The entire idea of a meta game is to find strategies that beat other strategies. People already counter pick by choosing a different character when your opponent beats you with one. Also to say that it "just isn't smash" you would have to define in words what exactly "smash" is, and that isn't realistic.

Can the people joining this thread just read my above post and give me one good reason as to why they should be banned? Keeping in mind that we don't ban things because you don't like it, we ban because something is unfair. If you just don't like it than you should probably play melee, or brawl. Sm4sh is different, stop trying to turn it into a game that it isn't. Brawl is different from melee in the same way that sm4sh is different from the other two. Games evolve. What we thought smash was in the N64 era is WILDLY different from what it is in the GameCube era. Is it really fair to ignore roughly half of what the developers worked on just because YOU want it to be more like another game?(brawl, melee). Either you accept this game and it's entirety or play a different smash.... But whatever happens for god sakes don't stop playing smash games.

Oh, and about the part where you're telling me not to play this game if I don't like costumes. Lol. I'll play whatever I want. And its like costumes are generally approved by people because I'm sure that in every poll that will be made between costumes being off or on, costumes off will prevail. And about me trying to turn this game into something it isn't, I should be the one telling you the same, Smash isn't a game where I should focus on choosing certain specials to beat certain characters specials. Smash is a straightforward game and that is the last thing I should be focusing on.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Counter picking characters with characters is much simpler and much more direct than doing so with costumes. It will turn into chess. "I will pick this costume to beat that move" and the enemy would go with a different costume to counter that. It's not fun. It's like chess. Smash is supposed to be much simpler than that. If any mind games should be involved, I want them to be when the match start not before it. Also, if you want a good reason costumes should be banned, its because some of them are OP. no character in the game is outright OP. but with costumes you have to ban this and that and go into arguments about why this is OP and why that isn't. Why go through the hassle? To make some characters able to be compatitve? If that's your purpose for supporting meta than I'm sorry but you're stabbing yourself in the butt. Some characters will benefit from them but some others will go down on the ranking even more. Balance will not be there either way and I could argue that it would be even worse with costumes. Whatever kind of meta costumes will bring it will be one that's full of needless headaches and no real improvement or fun.

Customs are OP? Remind me which customs move was Zero using agin?... None... And he beat all of them...
I want you to EXPLICITLY list the ones you think are OP because from what we saw at EVO most of them aren't all they are cracked up to be. There wasn't a single custom DK with cyclone in top 30 and hardly anyone in top 8 used them.

And this "chess" battle of counter picking you speak of exists with or without customs. Also it can be done a way with altogether by making players pick their character before seeing the opponents, it's called a blind pick.

And what gives you the right to say what "smash is supposed to be". How dare you sir...

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I still haven't gotten a good reason against customs... They diddnt dominate in EVO and that means they should be legal until PROVEN broken... And even if one is broken, then just ban that one...

 

[Steelballray]

I still haven't gotten a good reason against customs... They diddnt dominate in EVO and that means they should be legal until PROVEN broken... And even if one is broken, then just ban that one...

Zero won like 40+ tournaments. He can probably play against us with one hand strapped to his back and he will win. using him as an example when hes is the undisputed best Smash player is full of ****.

I admit to not know which costumes are exactly op since I didn't use them myself. But aren't Donkey Kong's Kong Cyclone and Pikachu's Skull Bash generally considered too hard to deal with? I mean, I did a little research a while ago and this http://gfycat.com/DefensivePhonyCaterpillar didnt look like something fun to deal with.

And about the notion that if a costume is OP it should be banned, I am sorry, but if you ban ONE THING trust me that all the gates of hell will break loose. And how do you definitely decide that something is OP anyway and convince everyone of it? generally there will always be people skilled enough to deal with any kind of **** you throw at them and there will be whiny piss babies who will want anything that they cant deal with ever banned. It will be a huge never ending cycle of mindless debate and there will always be the "Thats OP and needs to be banned!" people and the "Its not you just need to learn to play against it" people. I dont want that headache. You have no real goal that can be achieved. Just because Palutena and some other characters have costumes that will get them up in the ranking doesn't mean we should get ourselves into that endless sea of debates and hatred. Especially not when the existence of costumes in tournaments will just bring many characters who have **** costumes down further into the tier lists. basically defeating this imaginary goal costume supporters have in mind.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Zero won like 40+ tournaments. He can probably play against us with one hand strapped to his back and he will win. using him as an example when hes is the undisputed best Smash player is full of ****.

I admit to not know which costumes are exactly op since I didn't use them myself. But aren't Donkey Kong's Kong Cyclone and Pikachu's Skull Bash generally considered too hard to deal with? I mean, I did a little research a while ago and this http://gfycat.com/DefensivePhonyCaterpillar didnt look like something fun to deal with.

And about the notion that if a costume is OP it should be banned, I am sorry, but if you ban ONE THING trust me that all the gates of hell will break loose. And how do you definitely decide that something is OP anyway and convince everyone of it? generally there will always be people skilled enough to deal with any kind of **** you throw at them and there will be whiny piss babies who will want anything that they cant deal with ever banned. It will be a huge never ending cycle of mindless debate and there will always be the "Thats OP and needs to be banned!" people and the "Its not you just need to learn to play against it" people. I dont want that headache. You have no real goal that can be achieved. Just because Palutena and some other characters have costumes that will get them up in the ranking doesn't mean we should get ourselves into that endless sea of debates and hatred. Especially not when the existence of costumes in tournaments will just bring many characters who have **** costumes down further into the tier lists. basically defeating this imaginary goal costume supporters have in mind.

Ok maybe Zero was a bad example but there is no need for foul language, anyways hardly any of the top 8 used customs, and it sounds like you haven't done a lot of research and are just guessing that the customs are OP. The controversial customs that everyone is saying are jank diddnt even make it into the top 8, heck most didn't make it into the top 30 (including the kong cyclone). ESAMS custom pikachu (with heavy skull bash and thunder wave) was beaten by a default paceman and then beaten agin and knocked out of the losers bracket by a default Mario. This is the greatest example of why customs won't and can't degenerate the game into a special spam fest. At the end of the day everyone earned there place at EVO through practice with and against customs, solid fundamentals, and adaptation AS USUAL.

So what are the arguments now?

I just want a metagame where everyone can play who they want, how they want... Isn't that what we all want?...

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

We can ban certain custom moves if we have to...characters have been banned in past tournaments and so have certain techniques (wobbling, scrooging, etc.), and even character pairings in doubles. Banning custom move wouldn't be any different.

 

[the.tok]

I still cannot understand why the argument of "customs are OP" is still being brought. There is simply no evidence.

If it's broken, it means you can easily win a tournament with it. So go and try ;-)
I haven't heard of any story of a player abusing one custom move and winning a tournament / placing higher than he should have.
While rebalancing super turbo, Sirlin used to say, if you think it's too strong “Ok beat me with it, or at least make me afraid of it.”

The "it's a hassle and doesn't bring anything to the table" is a stronger argument IMO though I disagree, because I don't think it is that annoying to transfer customs from a 3DS once and for all. Let's face it : it is unlikely more than 8 combinations per character will ever be used, removing the need of unlocking them entirely.


I see customs more as the ultra choice I / II / W in UltraSFIV. Some characters benefit, other stick with U1. Some ultras are only used in certain matchups. And everyone's happy. The same with grooves in CvS2. Why is it any different in smash ?

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I still cannot understand why the argument of "customs are OP" is still being brought. There is simply no evidence.

If it's broken, it means you can easily win a tournament with it. So go and try ;-)
I haven't heard of any story of a player abusing one custom move and winning a tournament / placing higher than he should have.
While rebalancing super turbo, Sirlin used to say, if you think it's too strong “Ok beat me with it, or at least make me afraid of it.”

The "it's a hassle and doesn't bring anything to the table" is a stronger argument IMO though I disagree, because I don't think it is that annoying to transfer customs from a 3DS once and for all. Let's face it : it is unlikely more than 8 combinations per character will ever be used, removing the need of unlocking them entirely.


I see customs more as the ultra choice I / II / W in UltraSFIV. Some characters benefit, other stick with U1. Some ultras are only used in certain matchups. And everyone's happy. The same with grooves in CvS2. Why is it any different in smash ?

Many people are afraid of change, and what they don't know, both of these aply to customs. They don't like the idea of having to counter new move sets since they just got ahold of the defaults, and they are afraid of them because many of the anti-custom people have never seen them in action. I bet this whole debate could have been prevented if there had been a custom for glory from release.

It's not the strength of the custom move that makes it strong, rather it's your opponents inexperience dealing with them that makes them appear strong. Knowledge is the key to beating most of them.

 

[blackghost]

Many people are afraid of change, and what they don't know, both of these aply to customs. They don't like the idea of having to counter new move sets since they just got ahold of the defaults, and they are afraid of them because many of the anti-custom people have never seen them in action. I bet this whole debate could have been prevented if there had been a custom for glory from release.

It's not the strength of the custom move that makes it strong, rather it's your opponents inexperience dealing with them that makes them appear strong. Knowledge is the key to beating most of them.

By change it honestly seems like poeple don't want more good/visble characters in this game its apparently OK for default shiek to walk through the cast but if a custom character does its OP. If there is a new mode added now *fingers crossed* cusotm for glory i think it will be regarded as "noncompetitive". The lossof potential is really sad for this game.