Balancing Shiek

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[_Tree]

Balancing is never about creating disadvantageous match-ups, but rather about making every one equal. That's in a perfect world though. But anyway...

I'd reduce the range on F-air. That thing is way too good. Like, ridiculously good. Needs to be toned down. Other than that, I suppose I'd nerf her damage a little, but I think she's in a good place.

It's not that Sheik's too good in this game, it's that everyone else is so bad. Bring everyone else up to her level.

 

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[ArikadoSD]

Nerfing the range of her attacks is a great idea, actually. It worked very well for Metaknight.

Yes, and now from being the absolute best character in the game he's mid tier at best in the current metagame with broken (as in not properly working) hitboxes.

Nothing good ever comes out of threads like this, but gun to my head and I had to nerf Sheik I'd nerf Fair's range just a bit and make it not a disjoint.

 

[Zorai]

There is no way to do that without a total revamp of the character. No modifications to her current kit would balance her without making her mid tier or lower.

 

[ArikadoSD]

*takes a long, deep look at Greninja, who is now trash*

 

[Zankoku]

Didn't wanna put it this way, but...

Shiek is a rushdown character with:
- the best projectile in the game (combos, camping, forcing approach, gimping)
- INVINCIBLE recovery with good distance and the ability to kill
- strong oos options to start combos when punishing
- virtually no lag when played well
- excellent crouch and crawl
- true combos into her best KO move
- safe on shield attacks, even without precise spacing

No, she is definitely way too good. Balance IS about having bad matchups through weaknesses. Everyone must some kind of counterbalance to their strengths.

It's funny, because Sheik had pretty much all the stuff you listed back in Melee, and while one of the best, she hasn't been considered #1 in a long time in that game. I agree with Tree here, the game would be much more fun if everyone were around the same level of power as Sheik.

 

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[Zankoku]

You don't need the same options to be just as good. I'm also not really understanding this stance that by REDUCING options, the game becomes MORE fun.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

put more frame lag on all her air moves. There you go, you've nerfed sheik lol

 

[ArikadoSD]

put more frame lag on all her air moves. There you go, you've nerfed sheik lol

And effectively removed literally the only reason she's good. She'd go down the drain that way.

 

[ShinRamen]

The game is months old, allow for some actual meta development. If anything, please ask for your own characters to be buffed instead of having the top tiers nerfed, so we don't end up with a game that's slower and more boring to watch/play every patch.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

And effectively removed literally the only reason she's good. She'd go down the drain that way.

true, I would actually nerf bouncing fish range and look at her fair strings to nerf them a bit. Maybe change the way they send opponents so it's harder for her to follow up with fair strings and also give it a slight land lag so she can't auto cancel like a maniac

 

[Spark31]

Better Buff Greninja (Insert lenny face here)

 

[Lukingordex]

Yes, and now from being the absolute best character in the game he's mid tier at best in the current metagame with broken (as in not properly working) hitboxes.

Sorry for coming out of nowhere, but Meta Knight got some very good buffs in 1.0.4 and those not working properly hitboxes were fixed. He is currently one of the most underrated characters in the game. He has potential to be a solid high tier.

Also I don't have much knowledge about sheik, but what would happen if she had her Brawl/Melee Fair back?

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

The only possible thing that I could think of to bring her down even more would be to add more ending lag to her moves. And if you did that, you'd basically be destroying what makes her, well, her. Need I point out that she's already had a significant nerf in her kill power? She has excellent neutral game and great gimping abilities, but there are some characters that just utterly take a dump on her because of how much of a lightweight she is. She's not overpowered; you're just not fighting her the right way.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

Sorry for coming out of nowhere, but Meta Knight got some very good buffs in 1.0.4 and those not working properly hitboxes were fixed. He is currently one of the most underrated characters in the game. He has potential to be a solid high tier.

Also I don't have much knowledge about sheik, but what would happen if she had her Brawl/Melee Fair back?

If she had her Melee fair back, that would immediately be nerfed. I think that all of us here remember the hatchet of death from Melee and how horrifying it was.

If every character has the same options and no weaknesses, why bother with multiple characters? We can all just pick Shiek and have that meta if it's really desirable. Turns out it isn't.

I think I'd puke if everyone picked Sheik. I had to play at a tourney where all of the six or seven Sheik players were shoved into a corner and had to fight one another, myself included. It took forever for us to land kills on one another and by the time we were done, there was nothing left but a trail of needles and player tears. Nevrar again.

Character variety is good. Which is why you don't see me playing Melee.

You don't need the same options to be just as good. I'm also not really understanding this stance that by REDUCING options, the game becomes MORE fun.

I second this. Smash is a thinking man's game. And if your opponent chooses a character that has an advantage over the one you choose in a certain category, you just have to deal. It's not like Melee where there was a lot of tech skill involved and everyone HAD to choose Fox. And if everyone cried nerf the moment an advantage popped up on a certain character that was decently good and they didn't want to deal with it, and they DID get their way and everyone fought on an extremely balanced level to the point where we just had a bunch of well-rounded characters fighting one another, imo, the game would get rather bland. Learn to work with what you choose, yo.

 

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[BlastHappyNinja]

You know you can multiquote, right?

Heh, I'm kind of new here, so I had no idea..

 

[_Tree]

Yea @ BlastHappyNinja general forum etiquette is to post once and wait for responses. Multi-posting is generally seen as spamming. I know you're new, but just remember that.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

Yea @ BlastHappyNinja general forum etiquette is to post once and wait for responses. Multi-posting is generally seen as spamming. I know you're new, but just remember that.

My apologies, I'm really embarrassed about that, won't happen again, I promise. ^ ^;

 

[KeetZ]

I figured this would happen after Diddy got nerfed. People just find the next boogeyman to complain about.
I've been against balance patches since the beginning, but I digress, let the meta evolve, I mean c'mon; the game hasn't been out for a year yet. If there is still a character that is op after the meta has shown some development then perhaps a balance patch is justified because no one wants to see the same four characters in the top eight of every tournament.

 

[T0MMY]

Objectively speaking, how would you balance Shiek so that she has some disadvantageous matchups without becoming outclassed by other characters?

Just to get this out of the way: You are asking for something that is subjective, that is an opinion on a character & matchups - that is to say not objective (to be able to observe/measure).
Subjectively Sheik is the "best" character (though others have said Pikachu could very well be, and depending on how the meta develops other characters as well). So my opinion would be that we really shouldn't have much of an opinon how to "balance" this character when it isn't our job - that is the job of Sakurai et al (those game designers who make the game).
Our "job" as competitive players would be to try to exploit the game for how it functions at the time in order to win.

Additionally, "balance" does not equate to giving characters "some disadvantageous matchups". Balance means an equality, that is to say that no character would have a disadvantageous (or advantageous) matchup as all matchups would be equal given any way the game is played. Of course, this is ridiculous to assume, and probably a fallacy of perfection, which is why the idea of "neutral" and "balanced" are usually the same cries of "not fair" and "ban" by what some competitive players call "scrubs".

So, with that said, I wouldn't do anything in regards to Sheik as a competitive players, I would either use her to win or find a character I believe is stronger and use that character instead. "Balancing" is the last thing on my mind as a competitive player until something like Meta Knight comes about that essentially destroys the game to the point of it not being a viable competition for the community.

 

[Spark31]

I would either use her to win or find a character I believe is stronger

You don't mean to say you're a tier ***** I assume? Just asking cause, that wording makes it seem as such.

 

[Zankoku]

As a proper competitive player, the first thing on your mind really should be picking the character you feel you'd perform best with. Whether that's the strict overall best character in the game, or the character whose natural strengths best accentuate your play preferences and skillset, choosing anything otherwise, for tournament purposes, is intentionally lowering your chances of success for little to no good reason. That's all.

 

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[Zankoku]

While I feel that Sheik basically got away with murder for having her only significant loss in the patch be her bair's power, what's pretty funny is this perceived notion that the established best in the game should be brought down to make the game more fun, rather than improving the mediocre to bad characters of the cast. Continually making more and more characters less capable seems like a great way to make a game quite dull, really.

 

[Keeseman]

It's not that Sheik's too good in this game, it's that everyone else is so bad. Bring everyone else up to her level.

I agree with Tree here. While balancing Smash is hard, it's not impossible. Buffing everyone is what made Brawl- so cool. Additionally, by giving characters who were seen as lower tier (like Kirby) more movement and attack options, and improving their overall play, Project M made a much more balanced game.

While there will always be characters that are seen on top, people can make "low-tier" characters better simply by playing better, and using that character to its full potential.

Also, Sheik virtually had the same moveset in Brawl that she had in Melee, and she was low mid-tier. It's not the moveset; it's how players are able to take a characters strengths to their full potential and adapt to their weaknesses. It seems to me that tier lists exist more because some characters have more weaknesses than others, rather than some having more strengths (hopefully that makes sense).

 

[Joaco]

I'd give her a Mach Tornado and a dsmash that comes out in frame 5 and kills you at 110%

 

[Illuminose]

Reduce the ridiculous range of fair, increase needle toss end lag, give back the ability to kill with bair. I really think it's that simple lol.

 

[Bobert]

What if Sheik didn't have her needles and it was replaced with something else like a single projectile similar to Greninjas uncharged shuriken or sword fighters shuriken of light? Just a curious question. I don't play Sheik at all.

 

[Zankoku]

Honestly as far as needles go I would be happy if those things went back to the fixed knockback of Melee and Brawl so they didn't absolutely disrupt people at higher percents.

 

[TKD]

No post-poof rising sweetspot
Fixed knockback on needles (they have enough cooldown; it's better to change something else)

I'd say reducing fair's range would be good, but it's one of the few things that counter the grab and dashgrab spam the game lets people throw around so much. I'd rather have other chars be assigned less landing lag and/or earlier autocancels on their aerials. Less start-up on aerials that already have decent autocancel frames.

But then again, I'd also make shieldpush knock you off of platforms, bring untumbling back (tap left/right while out of hitstun to right yourself up from tumble), increase the effect of SDI, double the cool-down on airdodges (between invincibility and IASA), double ledgeclimb vulnerability frames (it's currently like 1 or 2 frames anyway), bring back skid cancel grabs, increase roll vulnerability (to 15 frames instead of 10), standardize the gap between dashing and blocking (the shorter the better), improve a lot of hitboxes so they don't go over/under people as easily and have reasonably large sweetspots, and maybe decrease the whole cast's aerial drift speed by a certain %.

Basically, I'd balance the gameplay before trying to balance the cast. It's amazing how they managed to make every character outside of Sheik feel as boring and powerless as a bottom tier character from any previous game in the series.

 

[Protassium]

Why do we need to nerf Shiek?
If she does get nerfed then...
People will complain about Rosa, then she will get a nerf until this game becomes brawl.

Just buff the characters who are not just as good. That would help people struggling with low tiers and the people practicing with high tiers won't have their progress lost.

Look at ZeRo, probably the best player in the world. He is now at a great disadvantage because his character got nerfed, losing all his progress. I expect he will drop Diddy soon, and will main Shiek.

 

[Bobert]

Why do we need to nerf Shiek?
If she does get nerfed then...
People will complain about Rosa, then she will get a nerf until this game becomes brawl.

Just buff the characters who are not just as good. That would help people struggling with low tiers and the people practicing with high tiers won't have their progress lost.

Look at ZeRo, probably the best player in the world. He is now at a great disadvantage because his character got nerfed, losing all his progress. I expect he will drop Diddy soon, and will main Shiek.

Don't people already complain about Rosalina? Some people thinks she's even better than Sheik.

 

[Protassium]

Don't people already complain about Rosalina? Some people thinks she's even better than Sheik.

Haha, good point

If one of the two get nerfed (samurai pls no) more outrage will come toward the other

they are all sexist

 

[6 g0d]

watching zero at ceo I would just nerf needles maybe add fixed knockback like in melee or more end lag something so that they cant be spamed it would nerf sheik and make her more fun to watch imo.

 

[Ascen]

Sheik has the potential to be exciting and fun to watch in this game. In fact, many characters in this game have the potential to be exciting and fun to watch. The only problem is that players want to win, and this game primarily benefits defensive play over offensive play. The reason many people don't like Sheik players is because they watch people like ZeRo, people who play to win, and aren't opposed to doing what they need to, which in some situations, is needle camp and only F-air string. To further extend this point, many people dislike Smash 4 in general because of players like Dabuz, people who play the way that benefits the game engine. If you watch players like False, and Mr. R, they are playing Sheik the way she can be played, which is exciting and less camp oriented.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

Sheik has the potential to be exciting and fun to watch in this game. In fact, many characters in this game have the potential to be exciting and fun to watch. The only problem is that players want to win, and this game primarily benefits defensive play over offensive play. The reason many people don't like Sheik players is because they watch people like ZeRo, people who play to win, and aren't opposed to doing what they need to, which in some situations, is needle camp and only F-air string. To further extend this point, many people dislike Smash 4 in general because of players like Dabuz, people who play the way that benefits the game engine. If you watch players like False, and Mr. R, they are playing Sheik the way she can be played, which is exciting and less camp oriented.

That's honestly all up to opinion. While I WILL agree that people who have egos about themselves are annoying, camping with Sheik is one of the best strategies that you can use on a LOT of characters. Take Luigi for example. He has a hard time approaching, right? Why WOULDN'T you camp him then in order to sway the situation to your advantage? As for Fair strings, they're used because they are effective. I use them, and I also camp with needles. That being said, I'm not out to worship Dabuz or ZeRo, in fact I've stated before that ZeRo says a LOT of things that probably aren't completely true. I think that your issue here is that you don't like seeing slow gameplay and would rather see something more flashy, correct me if I'm mistaken on that front. My point is, there's no REAL set in stone way to play Sheik, and nobody dictates a cookie-cutter way to play her. There are going to be variants on playstyles.

 

[PUK]

Nerf her roll, they are quite overpowered. It would make her "i hit your shield and good bye" punishable by more character.