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Balanced Melee Project 2.0 -All your dreams are here!-

CopynPasteKevin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
63
NNID
CopynPaste
Apparently, Falcon can airdodge after air Up-B. Putting the Taunt Kill moveset over PAL Right Taunt makes him lose that ability as well as that slow JC Falcon Kick, but putting it over SD Remix Left Taunt fixes the problem.

Thing is, I want Balanced along with SDR in the recent 20XX build. So in Falcon's case I put the SDR version over Right Taunt while the Balanced over Left Taunt.

Unfortunately by doing this, SDR Falcon loses his jump cancel in his shine.
 

Itaru

MasterGanon
Premium
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
279
Location
日本 茨城県
Well a lot of Kirby's issues arise from his speed, but he also suffers from bad hitbox placement, high risk, low reward moves, and an overall lack of reliable KO power. Again, some of those are his traits, so I will keep some.

I am going to start with his PAL buffs as a base.
Obviously, I am not using math for this, just general thought.
  • Give him some decent air mobility. I will match it to Ness (same voice actress, same creator, same air speed). This greatly improves his recovery and aerial approach without making him too fast. (In Scrumpy's version, Kirby could backwards Final Cutter from the revival platforms in FD and kill himself).
  • Kirby's largest change is that I will change his fall speed and gravity to be a scaled-for-Melee version of Brawl's. Kirby's above average fast fall speed, average fall speed, and low gravity is the reason why Brawl Kirby is the combo king. (same applies for 64) This will make him easier to combo, but it will make him more capable of chasing opponents vertically and dealing with juggle campers. (Because are you REALLY going to use Down+B?)
  • Give him an actual short hop. Doesn't have to be phenomenal, just a tad shorter. This, in addition to his new fall speed, will give him a decent SHFFL.
  • Remove his L-cancel hitbox on his dair. There is a chance that it might be a bit…useful?
  • Readjust the hitbox on his forward smash to completely cover his toe, even when late. I am tempted to make it stronger, but I will not. Instead, it will be an edgeguarding/clanking tool that isn't super vulnerable to getting "hitbox poked". Seriously. This hitbox is BAD. Additionally, let's cover his toes on his bair as well.
  • Give his fair the SDR hitbox placement/timing and 2 less frames of end lag.
  • The largest change aside from his mobility is that I will make his up air have a juggling hitbox at the start where his feet are in front of him (he has no hitbox until his feet are above him in vanilla).The juggling hitbox will do 7% and will have knockback kind of like Pichu's. But there is a catch. I will make the animation faster (Brawl speed), but in trade, the kill hitbox will be timed like his semispike in PM and deal 12% instead of 15%. This will make it a reliable juggle move, and in specific scenarios, can land a KO. The main reason I did this is because Kirby has an awful blind spot at about 2 o' clock, forcing him to waste a jump and fair.
  • Just like Scrumpy did, I will have his throws slightly harder to break out of.
  • Give Final Cutter a hitbox for the entire duration of the move. One of the reasons that Kirby is so easy to hit out of FC is because he has no hitbox for most of the rising part and halfway on the falling part. The move will still suck like is neutral B (get it?), but at least he has something.
  • IDK if it is possible, but I would make up throw land on platforms like it should have (I honestly believe this was an unintentional glitch).
  • D-throw deals damage each stomp like SDR.
Kirby's lack of reliable kill power will still be a thing, but his weaknesses will be toned down.

I am aiming for Scrumpy's Mario viability.

If we are looking for Marth viability, I would:
  • Make Final Cutter a weak spike and make the hits link better.
  • Make his f-smash like SSB4 in terms of speed and power.
  • Down+B is more like 64 and breaks shields.
  • Make the sourspots on up smash and grounded Hammer harder to hit and not suck.
  • Make Copy abilities impossible to lose.
  • Brawl aerial Hammer.
  • Make d-smash always semi-spike.
  • Down throw has KB more like SDR.
  • Kirby doesn't lose his jumps after Final Cutter and his throws.
  • Scrumpy's "Making Kirby Overpowered" nair.
  • 4 frame bair instead of 5.

Idk. I always prefered the idea of everyone being mid tier instead of high tier. There is a lot of brokenness in the top 7, and while, yes, Marth is one of the more balanced top tiers (lack of KO setups at high percents is a BRILLIANT weakness), his stupid range, dair, chain grabs (don't get me started on Sheik), are all pretty overpowering. Granted, a lot of the balancing helped in PAL.

At least Marth doesn't have blue hexagons of death and those irritating lasers.

--------------

Update: Finally got GCRebuilder to work (very picky in Wine). Here are my first impressions.
  • Kirby is too fast in the air.
  • He still is super slow on the ground.
Kirby has always been a ground character. Kirby uses his deceptively hard to punish roll, good spotdodge, low crouch and low wavedash to evade and punish with a down tilt or a grab, both of which are high tier. Once he disrupts his opponent, he starts his combo. Watch some of Triple R's matches and you will see what I mean.

  • Kirby's nair…while it is nice to have an f-tilt in the air, his nair has been a balancing thing. One of the reasons that Kirby is #2 in SSB64 is because of his up air (what becomes his nair in later games). He can't deal with pressure from above in midair because he doesn't have a reliable up air to hit them with. Pikachu doesn't have this weakness, so it is #1. Plus, that move is an amazing taunt. Additionally, his fair does pretty much the same job.
  • While the new aerial Hammer is awesome (MAX STYLE), Kirby is already very proficient at edgeguarding and doesn't need a third meteor. Brawl Hammer would've been better, assuming his up air was nerfed (so Kirby doesn't have too many kill options in the air). Also, what is this hitbox? I can only come up with a few hitboxes in vanilla that are larger than that, that aren't from ones with a huge sword, and are disjointed from their animation.
  • You fixed Final Cutter's hitbox placement (THANK YOU!) but 26% and a ridiculous meteor is too much. The 64 days are over.
  • Up air hitboxes were fixed, but forward smash and bair still don't cover his toes.
  • 2% and about as much knockback as Mario's third jab for a late dash attack?!
  • Stone also shouldn't do more than 20% and shouldn't kill under 80%. If it did, it shouldn't be cancelable and shouldn't have super armor. But then you remove Stone's purpose.
  • Grounded Hammer: So far I like it in terms of the sweetspot, but the sourspot should still be a thing.
MOAR UPDATE: A few other notes for other characters:
  • Ganondorf does waaaaaaaay too much damage IMO. I know it is math, but reads like that are not as hard as they seem. Especially because his stomp is fast and kills shields.
    • 44% from a Punch?
    • 34% OHKO near the edge from a taunt?
    • I think Ganondorf breaks his ankle when he runs. :p
  • The only one who should have a damaging taunt is Luigi. You just took away his unique trait.
  • If Ganondorf and Samus and whoever else get attack taunts, Young Link should at least heal in his taunt.
  • LOL, Fox's up smash is cute. "Ha!"
  • Ness' Yo-Yo Glitch.
  • Is it just me, or is Pichu slower
    • 25% from forward smash is silly.
    • I accept the increased damage from Skull Bash. If someone legitimately falls for that, I want to see it.
  • In the air, you can do 13% from a Hookshot, 14% from Grapple and 16% from a Clawshot (which reaches 1/4 the length of FD). Which they can do from an air dodge. Invincibility frames + any directional movement + 16% damage > helpless fall and 30 frames of landing lag. Low risk, high reward. Link suddenly became Indiana Jones.
  • Link does 17% from his up tilt. Kirby's infamous up tilt from 64 did 14%.
That's all for now. I will keep updating this the more I test this out.
Thank you very very much for the detailed explanations.

But, I don't intend to make a new version of Balanced Melee because I'm not motivated and I'm busy.

YouTube comments:
Anonymous "This is just a joke."
Anonymous2 "Thank you for your mother f**king stuff"
.....................................................................

What I should do is making crazy stuffs.
So, please make balanced characters yourself. You have good visions of the melee characters.

Balanced, yet Yoshi still can't jump out of shield
We cannot make it. We have limited skills of melee hacking.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DRGN

Technowizard
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
2,116
Location
Sacramento, CA
Thank you very very much for the detailed explanations.

But, I don't intend to make a new version of Balanced Melee because I'm not motivated and I'm busy.

YouTube comments:
Anonymous "This is just a joke."
Anonymous2 "Thank you for your mother f**king stuff"
.....................................................................

What I should do is making crazy stuffs.
So, please make balanced characters yourself. You have good visions of the melee characters.


We cannot make it. We have limited skills of melee hacking.
Yeah, I don't know about in Japan, but American YouTube comments are pretty dumb.

But don't let it bother you, because you do awesome stuff, Itaru!
 

Saki_SpaceDrift

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 26, 2017
Messages
4
Location
Immokalee, Florida

What you need
Balanced and Turbo pack
GCRebuilder
Dolphin
(Pl**Aj Pack) You need this if you want to play Pl**Victory pose
ISO, I can't link to the ISO.


How to made Balanced?

I know SDRemix and Scrumpy's viable series. But, I made Balanced Melee because I think...

1. We should respect Sakurai's character concepts.

2. We should apply "Balanced" to not only characters but also attacks.

3. There are many f**kin' attacks.(Luigi's Dash-A, Kirby's Side-B-Air and N-Air, Bowser's Down-Air, DK's Dash-A, Samus's Up-Smash, etc.)


So,

I didn't change character's mobility except Kirby, Pichu, YLink. (1, the above)
I changed damages with mathematics.(2, the above)
I replaced some animations. (3, the above)


How to change Damage?

First, I made this.
View attachment 124355
Attacks on Ground(A button attacks only and, except 2< hits attacks)
View attachment 124356
Attacks in air(A button attacks only and, except 2< hits attacks)

Blue is Average. Red is x1.2. Because, good attacks(not too strong, not too weak like knee or Falco's Side-Smash) are on red line.

This is base damage.



Second, I calculated damage in this way.(I separated Ground attacks and air attacks.)

Damage = base damage * multiplier * reach(Very long reach(-10%) or long reach(-5%) or middle or short(+5%) or very short(+10%))

multiplier = (Frame deviation value + IASA deviation value + Aerial max speed deviation value + jump start up lag deviation value)/4

Frame deviation value is deviation value of sum of frames of character's attacks.(A button attacks only)

IASA deviation value is the same as Frame deviation value.

Here is excel spread sheet.


Examples.
Kirby's SideB 23%
Bowser SideSmash 32%
DK SideB 23%
Ganon's F-Air 20%
Mario's meteor 18%

Others.

You can meteor cancel from end of hitlag 8 -> 6
Max number of frames of hitlag 20 -> 30
reflected projectiles damage multiplier 0.5 -> 2
tech dead window (cannot tech for 40 frames after performing a tech) 40 -> 20
Can you or anyone please make a tutorial video of how to install this???
 
Last edited by a moderator:

rockandroll805

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
7
Hey, I've been working on and off on my own version of balanced melee for the past couple of months or so that I have been playing with my friends and when looking through some threads trying to get help I found some of your posts and then this. I have been keeping track of the changes I have been making for myself but I guess I can finally share it
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13fGjw4k_qgkjtWllextAXB9gawyKsUeeUolSDhhw8Fg/edit?usp=sharing

I'm sure you know more about editing melee and stuff than I do but I'd be happy to discuss balance stuff if you want help in whatever way
 
Last edited:

HyperNuke

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
6
Hey, when buffing Mario and Dr. Mario, will you make them different (in play-style)? Mario got some awesome buffs last time, but it seems that Dr. Mario didn't get that many.

Also, I feel like you should change your name, Balanced Melee. I don't like that people bash your project, since it isn't what they think is "Balanced."
 

PenguinGuy

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 6, 2018
Messages
13
Location
La Plata, Argentina
People not understanding that Itaru is the most crazy Melee modder and that he doesn't do balanced stuff bc he likes to do crazy ****, is just funny xd
 

SegaPlayer404

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 7, 2018
Messages
8
It is SO easy for modders to get carried away with buffs. It can be a lot of fun designing and making them, that's what gives you the joy to make them but in my personal opinion (and I believe many others would agree) that I would LOVE to have a "balanced Melee" where lower tier characters are changed MINIMALLY. Remember the guy who "cheated" by using as modded memory card that buffed Pichu? The players didn't even REALIZE at the time that Pichu was buffed. That's how LITTLE he was changed but it was still SOO effective at balancing it. Changing all the movesets and giving everyone crazy kills throws and kill moves is overdoing it imo. Very well done project though, I would like to see one that involves only the slightest of changes solely to refine the game we already love so dearly
To be honest, the only modders who know how to actually balance Melee are too busy playing or modding Smash Ultimate right now.
 

ohuro

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 15, 2014
Messages
11
Location
jpn
Slippi.gg
LGA#785
Itaru's BM beta Roy tips
dat file\\\Itaru's Youtube account, community tab

Almost sourspots are buffed.
Maybe tipper, blade, Roy's body hitbox make almost same knockback.

Full hop height maybe increases.
Double jump height increases.

\\\Taunt\\\
explodes and deals 23%.

\\\UpB\\\
Aerial vertical velocity increases.
UpB will deal 38% if no DI.

\\\DownB\\\
Damage multiplier increases to 1.6 or 1.7 x from 1.5

\\\Throw\\\
All throw deal 14%.
Uthrow doesn't have reverse angle. it's a pure 90 degree.

\\\Dash attack\\\
viable hitbox, deals 17%, reverse angle.

\\\Down tilt\\\
knocks opponent horizontally.

\\\Upsmash\\\
Usmash has interesting stuffs. Maybe Itaru changes only reaction values,but if opponent DIs away primal "charging state", opponent will fly vertically. So much combo potential.
 
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