Balance Philosophy: Bowser

[Necro'lic]

To understand how to balance a character, one must first understand their philosophy: what strengths and weaknesses were they meant to have, and what purpose would they serve in the metagame. We will be discussing that today with His Most Surly Majesty, Bowser.

Balance Philosophy Series:

Mario/Dr. Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Yoshi
Rosalina and Luma
Bowser Jr.
Wario
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game and Watch
Little Mac
Link
Zelda
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Pit/Dark Pit
Palutena
Marth/Lucina
Ike
Roy
Robin
Duck Hunt
Kirby
King Dedede
Meta Knight
Fox
Falco
Pikachu
Charizard
Lucario
Greninja
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
R.O.B
Ness
Lucas
Captain Falcon
Villager
Olimar
Wii Fit Trainer
Shulk
Pac-Man
Mega Man
Sonic
Ryu
Mii Brawler
Mii Swordfighter
Mii Gunner

My take on Bowser:

Purpose: Tank/"Boss Character" of the cast/Immense Presence

Strengths should be:

• Kills easily
• Does a lot of damage
• Hard to kill
• Almost always trades in his favor

Weaknesses should be:

• Bad frame data
• Juggling problems
• Lack of combos

In a game like Smash, the huge cast of characters warrants a few unconventional design choices. Bowser, I have always felt, should be one of those unconventional characters (along with the likes of Villager, Rosalina, and Jigglypuff).
His design in game seems to want him to be this boss-like entity, make-a-few-mistakes-and-die kind of deal, but it doesn't go far enough in my opinion. Let's take it up a notch.

General Changes:

• Slightly increase overall frame size (Double-edged sword. Increases likelihood of getting hit, but also range)
• Increase airspeed from 0.98 -> 1.1 (Now tied with Shiek, Captain Falcon, Mega Man, and DHD)
• Increase fastfall speed from 2.224 -> 2.6 (Now slightly less than DK)
• Increase walking speed from 0.858 -> 0.94 (Now tied with Captain Falcon)
• Increase Tough Guy heavy-armor threshold to 2.5%
• Tough Guy no longer diminishes as Bowser takes damage (Why does it do this to begin with?)
• Decrease hard landing lag from 6 frames -> 5 frames (Universal change I made to all characters)
• Increase overall priority on all moves (No one can challenge Bowser's attacks)

Bigger, faster, and stronger! The speed increases were mostly to account for his lack of escaping while in the air, and the landing lag decrease also helps. The walking speed and Tough Guy changes were for dealing with projectiles a bit better.
The priority increase will make it so Bowser always wins a trade of attacks.

Jab:

• None

Considering the changes I'm going to make, this one felt fine imo. Feel free to call me out if I'm wrong.

Dash Attack:

• Angle of both hitboxes from 80/80 -> 45/45
• Damage increased from 10%/8% -> 15%/11%
• Increase shield damage to +1

The angle change was to emphasize a horizontal domination rather than the weird verticality it has presently. Also, when a giant dragon turtle comes lunging at you, I expect more destruction and tears, hence the last two changes.

F-Tilt:

• Startup from 10 frames -> 8 frames
• Damage increased from 12% -> 14%

Making a bit better for out of shield. Also more damage.

U-Tilt:

• Knockback growth from 97 -> 100
• Damage increased from 9% -> 14%
• Hitbox now lingers at the very end of the swing

This is Bowser's answer to incoming things above him other than U-Smash, because with the increased priority, not only can he create a temporary arc of invulnerable death above his head, but can also swat projectiles out of the sky. The enemy's only real answer is to airdodge through it. It's also slightly better at killing.

D-Tilt:

• The two hits are now seperate, similar to Jab
• Decrease first hit knockback growth from 100 -> 30
• Base knockback from 20/12 -> 10/20
• Damage from 14%/11% -> 11%/14%
• Startup increased from 10 frames -> 13 frames

This is a second Jab of sorts. One that does more damage and knocks back only slightly in exchange for not being safe out of shield as much as regular Jab is. The hits should combo into each other better now as well.

F-Smash:

• Damage increased from 23%/17% -> 27%/21%
• Base knockback increased from 25/10 -> 35/20

More damage and knockback, because this is Bowser's "nuke" move and it should be more so.

U-Smash:

• Shell invincibility from 14-27 frames -> 12-30 frames
• Damage increased from 20%/15% -> 23%/19%
• Grounded landing hitbox now has an accompanying windbox going outward on both sides

More invincibility on the shell? Why not? Also the usual extra damage and a windbox for those pesky shielders you missed.

D-Smash:

• Range increased slightly (Should be able to fully cover a Battlefield platform and then some)
• Damage increased from 2%/1% * 5/9% (total: 16%) -> 4%/1.7% * 5/11% (total: 23.5%)
• There are no hurtboxes on the active frames of this move
• FAF decreased from 72 frames -> 65 frames
• Knockback growth decreased from 130 -> 98

This is Bowser's ground control, and it does a lot of damage now, as well as more area denial. It also has less endlag to account for its lack of raw kill power that F-Smash has.

N-Air:

• Startup decreased from 8 frames -> 5 frames
• Now has a vacuum effect
• Arms and legs are now intangible throughout the move
• Damage from 5% * 4 (total: 20%) -> 6.5%/6.5%/6.5%/8% (total: 26.5%)
• Knockback growth decreased from 50/100/90/90 -> 50/50/50/50

It is now a get-off-me move with the decreased startup, hopefully. You can also become a moving wheel of nope while in the air. Also, it is his most damaging aerial due to its multi-hit nature, but it doesn't kill as well as it used to.

F-Air:

• All three hitboxes now merge into one
• The claw swipe now hits above Bowser's head at the start of the move
• Damage from 13% -> 18%

The three hitboxes are way more complicated than they needed to be, considering the simplicity of this move. More damage as well, the usual.

B-Air:

• Damage increased from 19% -> 21%

Simple change. Move is already pretty good at what it does.

U-Air:

• Move is now a circling upward kick a la Captain Falcon (Because it's more appropriate I say)
• Damage from 15% -> 18%

Don't usually do this, but the headbutt always felt weird remnant of the past to me, so why not a more appropriate move for our now agile King?

D-Air:

• Meteor effect now follows throughout the descent
• Now has extremely more aerial control (like +100% extreme)
• Damage increased from 16% -> 20%
• There are no hurtboxes on any active frame of this move
• Landing now has a huge windbox effect about the range of D-Smash

Much like D-Smash, Bowser remains invincible throughout the move, and the windboxes make it much safer to land with, but only situationally (Aim at your opponent).

Grab:

• Standing grab endlag from 39 -> 26 (Universal change)
• Dash grab endlag from 48 -> 40 (Universal change)
• Pivot grab endlag from 46 -> 36 (Universal change)

Pretty much every character gets this treatment here. Bowser already has alright range.

F-Throw:

• Base knockback increased from 60 -> 70
• Damage increased from 12% -> 13%

Each throw has a niche, and this one is the usual stage control. Now a bit better early on.

B-Throw:

• Now puts the opponent on the floor behind Bowser (a la Flame Choke)
• Damage decreased from 12% -> 5.5%

This throw gives Bowser what he hasn't had as of yet, a techchase scenario. This is perhaps his most dangerous throw simply for that reason, so the damage needed to be compensated.

U-Throw:

• Base knockback from 90 -> 110
• Angle from 70 -> 90
• Damage increased from 1% * 8/2% (total: 10%) -> 1.5% * 8/5% (total: 17%)

For those rare cases you want to go in the air. Also does the most damage and is the most liable to kill.

D-Throw:

• Angle from 50 -> 345
• Knockback growth decreased from 50 -> 20
• Damage decreased from 10%/2% -> 5%/4%

Ah, Bowser's useless throw. Not anymore! It is now a dangerous semispike for those who like to gimp. Highly dangerous, which is why I nerfed a few things just for good measure.

Fire Breath:

• Recharge time to ~6 seconds from lowest charge
• Minimum hitboxes required decreased from 4 -> 3
• Minimum time FAF decreased from 78 frames -> 50 frames

This makes Fire Breath a bit more quick in terms of endlag. I hope not so much that combos can come of it, but it was a bit too clunky. Also, lower recharge rate too.

Flying Slam:

• Aerial grab startup decreased from 17 frames -> 8 frames (Same as grounded)
• Aerial grabbox now the same size as the grounded version's

Not much else other than what you guys seem to have a gripe with. (Added the true solution, but kept the old solution because reasons)

Whirling Fortress:

• Grounded version can now go off platforms
• Grounded startup decreased from 6 frames -> 4 frames
• Grounded version speed increased slightly
• There are no hurtboxes on the active frames on the grounded version of this move

On the ground it is much more versatile and scary.

Bowser Bomb:

• First hit's knockback is no longer weight based
• Landing damage increased from 11% -> 18%

Hopefully that stops any weird jank happening depending on the character. Or it wasn't a problem to begin with in which case.



Thanks for the help guys, hope you enjoy this. Feel free to tell me where I am wrong on these.

 

[Rebel13]

Just a thing here. I've seen quite a few of your "Balance Philosophy" articles and want to voice an opinion here.
They are not balancing anything.

All you do is take the characters strengths and make them better, and take the weaknesses and make them worse. Generally you make the character a lot "better" in whole, but more lopsided. If we did this for every character they would all be vastly different from each other which is actually harder to balance competitively.

Your buffs are also fairly extreme. Buff knockback on Bowser's Fsmash?! It already KO's at 40%, is it really necessary to have it kill at 0%??

Not to trash the whole thing entirely, you obviously put a lot of effort into these. General buff discussions might be worth having when said buffs are possible/likely to happen. This particular discussion, however, is pointless unless you're building a Project M type on sm4sh with your own ideas, in which case, just do that.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Your buffs are also fairly extreme. Buff knockback on Bowser's Fsmash?! It already KO's at 40%, is it really necessary to have it kill at 0%??

has 2 moves that kill at 0%...

 

[Necro'lic]

Not to trash the whole thing entirely, you obviously put a lot of effort into these. General buff discussions might be worth having when said buffs are possible/likely to happen. This particular discussion, however, is pointless unless you're building a Project M type on sm4sh with your own ideas, in which case, just do that.

A little secret; that was the plan.
When I figure out how to do it, I will.

I mostly do this sort of thing to get a more broad opinion of my mindset moving forward. Also note that all of the characters I have done this for are considered low-tier. The higher tiered characters changes won't be nearly as extreme.

Speaking of, the intention was to make FSmash kill at ~20% or so, and only when fully charged is it a one hit kill. If those numbers make it a one hit kill anyway, that is imbalanced. I'll try to change it.

Edit: Also keep in mind I did say Bowser was a more unconventional character, trading good frame data, something most characters should have, for other things, such as speed and raw power.

If this was a more conventional character like Mario, Fox, or Ganondorf, these changes also wouldn't be as extreme or weird.

 

[Big Sean]

@ Necro'lic the changes seem reasonable based on your goals.

I will say though that when we talk about the base strengths of bowser, I would say that beating people from above us is certainly one of the core things that make bowser bowser currently. If someone is above us we have up smash, fortress OOS, up smash OOS, we can bait an air dodge and bowser bomb or flying slam. I mean the options are amazing.

Two of your changes make it so that we have even more anti air options. Down smash and up tilt. Down smash is a hard move to fix because it's hitboxes make it so that up smash punishes almost everything that down smash, so they mostly fill the same role. By giving the move invincibility you've basically given us 2 of the same move. The utilt buff is nice, but a similar issue occurs here, I would rather go for an up +smash or OOS trap than use this new up tilt. I guess maybe I haven't felt the power of a lasting hitbox but I would imagine even it's amazing, it still will overlap with up smash and down smash a lot.

 

[FrankTheStud]

has 2 moves that kill at 0%...

Neutral B and what? His counter?

 

[Grizzlpaw]

 

[Jerodak]

I think Bowser should keep the headbutt up air. Seems more his style in my opinion. Bowser doing flip kicks sounds really goofy.

There were other issues with klaw, namely it's range and stange hitboxes.

Also would the change to f-air still let it send the opponent behind him if hit with certain parts of it?

I like current up tilt already, it does pretty much everything I want it to, it's a solid option cover and really fills it's own niche well.

I also agree with @ Big Sean on down smash. I think that down smash having little knockback and ko power compared to other smashes is fine, but I've always felt like it should do good damage.

I also agree that some of the buffs are over the top, fortress being fully invincible in the air being one example. Thanks to ledge trumping, Bowser's weight factor matters more than it ever has. It forces characters to interact with each other offstage much more, so players have to stuff Bowser's recovery more directly. Making it invincible removes all of the counter play.

 

[pitfall356]

nair attacking faster and having more damage? That's just absurd. Most of the changes here turn Bowser from dangerous heavyweight to "I poked you and you died."

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Reading this post made me want to ape on these suggestions. But now that I know this is the groundwork for a conceptual Project M 2, I can delete my memory of it in good conscience.

But in the interest of not making a useless post, I'll put some cliffnotes:

-Dsmash is used to cover ledge options, not anti-air. That's Usmash. His shell spin doesn't even come close to the platforms of battlefield, so why should they hit people that high up?
-Making us invulnerable during fortress essentially gives us Shiek's Up B, the one recovery move that cannot be reasonable edgeguarded. This is a problem to be addressed, not copied.
- Bowser is a character who makes the opponent afraid of shielding. A one hit kill Fsmash on a successful shieldbreak is unnecessary since the vast majority of our shield breaks can be converted to a kill via pushing the opponent and charging the current one.
- have you used Utilt when it had 50 frames of endlag? When the opponent successfully air dodges past the move, they would recover about as much as 15-20 frames faster than Bowser. With the current one, the advantage situation is far more even, and thus makes the move worth using.
- we want aerial flying slam to have a better grab box. Making it faster is silly since it's not like the opponent can shield while airborne. Use an aerial instead which comes out on Frame 8.
- Tough guy is knockback based, not damage based.
- And please don't think Tough Guy needs the Project M interpretation of giving every move and action of Bowser light to heavy armor. This is dumb. A heavy character is about keeping yourself out of problem situations and fighting on your terms, not derping through your opponent's options on a whim that they're throwing an attack at you instead of shielding or grabbing. I'm sorry, I really do like a lot of Project M, but their Bowser design has always felt fantastically wrong.
-Fire breath suggestions I kind of like. Good on that.

 

[link2702]

it really urks me when I see vids like that, calling certain things "glitches" aka errors in programming, when they're not. The roy up b kill is just two smash4 mechanics clashing into each other, rage mechanic and the increased knockback received when you're hit while charging a smash attack.

small pet peeve I know, but its still not technically a "glitch"

 

[Necro'lic]

Hey guys. Just moved into a new apartment, which is why I haven't been replying as much as I usually do. But I'm here now.

Reading this post made me want to ape on these suggestions. But now that I know this is the groundwork for a conceptual Project M 2, I can delete my memory of it in good conscience.

But in the interest of not making a useless post, I'll put some cliffnotes:

-Dsmash is used to cover ledge options, not anti-air. That's Usmash. His shell spin doesn't even come close to the platforms of battlefield, so why should they hit people that high up?

The overlap of DSmash and USmash was mostly unintentional and I plan to do something about that. But I didn't make the hitbox higher up, just wider on the sides.

-Making us invulnerable during fortress essentially gives us Shiek's Up B, the one recovery move that cannot be reasonable edgeguarded. This is a problem to be addressed, not copied.

That was a pretty weird idea now that I see the problems. Will probably reevaluate that.

- Bowser is a character who makes the opponent afraid of shielding. A one hit kill Fsmash on a successful shieldbreak is unnecessary since the vast majority of our shield breaks can be converted to a kill via pushing the opponent and charging the current one.

Maybe unnecessary, but I didn't balance these moves based off of shieldbreak. Really, it only makes it easier than the current version.

- have you used Utilt when it had 50 frames of endlag? When the opponent successfully air dodges past the move, they would recover about as much as 15-20 frames faster than Bowser. With the current one, the advantage situation is far more even, and thus makes the move worth using.

Really? Did not know that. Might reevaluate that one too.

- we want aerial flying slam to have a better grab box. Making it faster is silly since it's not like the opponent can shield while airborne. Use an aerial instead which comes out on Frame 8.

Got mixed messages on what was wrong with this move. Will definitely change. But if I'm correct on how grabs work in this game, attacks beat them out no matter what. So a quicker grab in the air will only help surely.

- Tough guy is knockback based, not damage based.

Whoops.

- And please don't think Tough Guy needs the Project M interpretation of giving every move and action of Bowser light to heavy armor.

Other than the moves involving him retreating in his shell, I don't think I would ever give him straight armor on attacks, just more priority on his moves.
Bowser is supposed to calculate his opponent's errors and I think out of all the superheavyweights, he needs super armor the least. However, he is still a giant turtle, and the game needs to realize this.

-Fire breath suggestions I kind of like. Good on that.

Nice! I got something right.

Replies in red. (Probably the most constructive post thus far)

 

[Necro'lic]

Changes thus far:

U-Tilt:

• Removed the base knockback increase
• Removed the FAF increase

N-Air:

• Reduced the knockback growth of the move

Flying Slam:

• Aerial version's grabbox is now the same size as the grounded version's

Whirling Fortress:

• Removed shell intangibility on the aerial version of the move

 

[pitfall356]

From a balanced perspective, nair should deal less damage and come out faster. Faster and more damage makes it a ****ing god tool. I've been trying to incorporate nair in my game more lately and I'm surprised at how devastating it is. It doesn't need more damage.

 

[Karsticles]

Feedback:
-Nair is perfect as it is, it just needs a little less landing lag. It isn't, and shouldn't be, an OoS option. It's an anti-air dodge move, and it's great at that.

-Dsmash still has no purpose, as far as I can see. It needs something to clearly set it apart from Fortress.

-Bowser Bomb should have armor, and lock down shields for auto-breaks.

-Flying Slam has a horrible hitbox. It needs the inward hitbox to be extended, because it can whiff on opponents right next to Bowser right now. It also needs armor.

-Your Bthrow change is bad - that throw KOs, and you're turning it into a tech chase. It would be better to make Dthrow the tech chase - it has no purpose right now.

-Your Dtilt change is bad - the second hit of Dtilt is weak. The first hit has all the knockback, and you are nerfing it for a second jab no one needs or wants. Dtilt is a useful ledge KO move. It doesn't need a change, at all.

-Aerial Fortress needs to be reversible.

-Uair is perfect right now. It's head invulnerable, so it's a good KO move.

 

[MagiusNecros]

This is a mere wishlist.

All bowser needs is shell guard on shell attacks.

Buff tough guy.

Fix klaw.

B reverse fortress.

And maybe give us back fortress to ledge.

The end.

Dsmash remains pointless.

 

[Xandercosm]

I honestly feel like these buffs would make bowser weird and probably overpowered. Some of them I liked. But for the most part, I thought you focused WAY too much on damage/knockback increase instead of what bowser really needs: reduced lag. All in all, I think most of the buffs you listed just don't even make any sense. Just my opinion.

 

[LovinMitts]

This is a pretty redundant reply, but I'm gonna go ahead and agree with every other reply here. You focused on many of the wrong things when thinking of buffs. Bowser doesn't need an easier time killing. Bowser's biggest weaknesses are his recovery and his neutral/mobility. The only suggestion there I really liked was for whirling fortress to be more mobile and slide off of platforms. Otherwise, all of the buffs to percent and knockback are totally pointless. Here's what I'd do:

Grounded Whirling fortress is more mobile, slides off of platforms, and has invincibility from frames 4-7 on startup.

Aerial Whirling Fortress can B-reverse and each multihit does 1 extra % damage. Base height is the same, approx. 1/5th higher after mashing than before.

Less landing lag on nair. Idk what the landing on it actually is off the top of my head, but it needs to be lowered.

Balancing isn't done in broad strokes, my friend.

 

[Big-Cat]

Reading this post made me want to ape on these suggestions. But now that I know this is the groundwork for a conceptual Project M 2, I can delete my memory of it in good conscience.

But in the interest of not making a useless post, I'll put some cliffnotes:

-Dsmash is used to cover ledge options, not anti-air. That's Usmash. His shell spin doesn't even come close to the platforms of battlefield, so why should they hit people that high up?
-Making us invulnerable during fortress essentially gives us Shiek's Up B, the one recovery move that cannot be reasonable edgeguarded. This is a problem to be addressed, not copied.
- Bowser is a character who makes the opponent afraid of shielding. A one hit kill Fsmash on a successful shieldbreak is unnecessary since the vast majority of our shield breaks can be converted to a kill via pushing the opponent and charging the current one.
- have you used Utilt when it had 50 frames of endlag? When the opponent successfully air dodges past the move, they would recover about as much as 15-20 frames faster than Bowser. With the current one, the advantage situation is far more even, and thus makes the move worth using.
- we want aerial flying slam to have a better grab box. Making it faster is silly since it's not like the opponent can shield while airborne. Use an aerial instead which comes out on Frame 8.
- Tough guy is knockback based, not damage based.
- And please don't think Tough Guy needs the Project M interpretation of giving every move and action of Bowser light to heavy armor. This is dumb. A heavy character is about keeping yourself out of problem situations and fighting on your terms, not derping through your opponent's options on a whim that they're throwing an attack at you instead of shielding or grabbing. I'm sorry, I really do like a lot of Project M, but their Bowser design has always felt fantastically wrong.
-Fire breath suggestions I kind of like. Good on that.

I always thought the PM design was terrible as well. It didn't really address his chief issues - slow and clunky. Smash 4 handled that issue much better by making him faster and somewhat more agile in his attacks. Also, the super armor makes it to where he doesn't play footsies.

I honestly think Bowser really just needs an improved DSmash and no point blank issues with Klaw.

 

[Xandercosm]

Klaw.

Don't mention the name! It always brings a tear to my eye. Such a laggy move with such a small hitbox. And, it doesn't even KO early enough to make up for those things. It's a travesty...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Don't mention the name! It always brings a tear to my eye. Such a laggy move with such a small hitbox. And, it doesn't even KO early enough to make up for those things. It's a travesty...

But but platforms and low ceilings.

 

[Xandercosm]

But but platforms and low ceilings.

Don't make me get angry!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Don't make me get angry!

They REALLY need to fix our ****ing move.

 

[Xandercosm]

They REALLY need to fix our ****ing move.

I know, right?

 

[Metal B]

To truly understand a character and his moves, you have to look at all the moves as a whole and there connection.
Bowser is a special case, because he has four moves, which have a special dynamic going on:

1. Aerial-Down-A vs Aerial-Down-B:
Both moves act very similar, which is kind of the point. The idea was properly, since Bowser has problems landing, that there is a Reading-game between him and his opponent. If the opponent is on the ground and shields, the Bowser Bomb will break him. If he tries to move away, the Aerial-Down-A can follow or escape him. It's a neat idea. But in my opinion it fails, because there needs to be a third option. Doing nothing isn't a good option, since Bowser has major problems, staying too long in the disadvantage and a well placed Doge or Power-Shield saves every character.

My idea would be to either buff Fire Breath or Flying Slam (both would be even better). Simply exchange Bowser's Fire Breath with Chizard's Flamethrower. Bowser needs the range more then Chizard (who has multiple jumps and a very fast runspeed). Flying Slam to be more easier to hit, is a wish of every Bowser player and was properly the idea of the move. Bowser should always want a hit box out there, if he does anything.

2. Grounded Up-B vs Down-Smash
Again both are pretty much the same movie. One is a Smash and the other an OoS-Move with some mobility. Again the idea is to read your opponent and use the right move to trick him. But there is no reason to ever use the Down-Smash. Yes, it does more damage and has more knockback, but without the mobility and OoS-Option its really hard to ever hit. Also the knockback isn't worth the risk, since it doesn't KO as early then other moves. Up-B is just overall saver.

One option would be increasing the damage and knockback of the Down-Smash, so people actually would use the move instead for a risk/reward scenario. The second option would be including a vacuum effect, which pushes the opponent into the move, and increasing the mobility of Up-B. Now you can play with your opponent. If he stays too close, you suck him into the attack with Down-Smash. If he tries to escape, you following him with a Grounded Up-B.

Bowser's answer to all his problems should always be an aggressive approach or a read heavy one. He doesn't just land, he attacks the ground! All he need is the one good read, to change the tables of the battle, and he has the weight to overlook some failures. But he needs more tools to pressure his opponent into making hard decision.

(Also all the unreliable moves, which whiff before opponents, let them fall out or don't target the edge, are annoying. Those are the main problem of many mid- and low-tier characters (for example Zelda, Samus and Mewtwo)).

 

[MrEh]

Bowser needs the range more then Chizard (who has multiple jumps and a very fast runspeed).

But Zard's jumps are some of the worst in the game, and he's also one of the most immobile characters in the air.

It's not clear cut like that at all.

 

[Xandercosm]

To truly understand a character and his moves, you have to look at all the moves as a whole and there connection.
Bowser is a special case, because he has four moves, which have a special dynamic going on:

1. Aerial-Down-A vs Aerial-Down-B:
Both moves act very similar, which is kind of the point. The idea was properly, since Bowser has problems landing, that there is a Reading-game between him and his opponent. If the opponent is on the ground and shields, the Bowser Bomb will break him. If he tries to move away, the Aerial-Down-A can follow or escape him. It's a neat idea. But in my opinion it fails, because there needs to be a third option. Doing nothing isn't a good option, since Bowser has major problems, staying too long in the disadvantage and a well placed Doge or Power-Shield saves every character.

My idea would be to either buff Fire Breath or Flying Slam (both would be even better). Simply exchange Bowser's Fire Breath with Chizard's Flamethrower. Bowser needs the range more then Chizard (who has multiple jumps and a very fast runspeed). Flying Slam to be more easier to hit, is a wish of every Bowser player and was properly the idea of the move. Bowser should always want a hit box out there, if he does anything.

2. Grounded Up-B vs Down-Smash
Again both are pretty much the same movie. One is a Smash and the other an OoS-Move with some mobility. Again the idea is to read your opponent and use the right move to trick him. But there is no reason to ever use the Down-Smash. Yes, it does more damage and has more knockback, but without the mobility and OoS-Option its really hard to ever hit. Also the knockback isn't worth the risk, since it doesn't KO as early then other moves. Up-B is just overall saver.

One option would be increasing the damage and knockback of the Down-Smash, so people actually would use the move instead for a risk/reward scenario. The second option would be including a vacuum effect, which pushes the opponent into the move, and increasing the mobility of Up-B. Now you can play with your opponent. If he stays too close, you suck him into the attack with Down-Smash. If he tries to escape, you following him with a Grounded Up-B.

Bowser's answer to all his problems should always be an aggressive approach or a read heavy one. He doesn't just land, he attacks the ground! All he need is the one good read, to change the tables of the battle, and he has the weight to overlook some failures. But he needs more tools to pressure his opponent into making hard decision.

(Also all the unreliable moves, which whiff before opponents, let them fall out or don't target the edge, are annoying. Those are the main problem of many mid- and low-tier characters (for example Zelda, Samus and Mewtwo)).

I think this is a good summary of some of the changes Bowser needs to become more competitive. The one I want most, out of what you listed, would be for D-smash to have a windbox that draws opponents closer. It could be similar to Ganondorf's U-tilt.

 

[S_B]

Reading this post made me want to ape on these suggestions. But now that I know this is the groundwork for a conceptual Project M 2, I can delete my memory of it in good conscience.

But in the interest of not making a useless post, I'll put some cliffnotes:

-Dsmash is used to cover ledge options, not anti-air. That's Usmash. His shell spin doesn't even come close to the platforms of battlefield, so why should they hit people that high up?
-Making us invulnerable during fortress essentially gives us Shiek's Up B, the one recovery move that cannot be reasonable edgeguarded. This is a problem to be addressed, not copied.
- Bowser is a character who makes the opponent afraid of shielding. A one hit kill Fsmash on a successful shieldbreak is unnecessary since the vast majority of our shield breaks can be converted to a kill via pushing the opponent and charging the current one.
- have you used Utilt when it had 50 frames of endlag? When the opponent successfully air dodges past the move, they would recover about as much as 15-20 frames faster than Bowser. With the current one, the advantage situation is far more even, and thus makes the move worth using.
- we want aerial flying slam to have a better grab box. Making it faster is silly since it's not like the opponent can shield while airborne. Use an aerial instead which comes out on Frame 8.
- Tough guy is knockback based, not damage based.
- And please don't think Tough Guy needs the Project M interpretation of giving every move and action of Bowser light to heavy armor. This is dumb. A heavy character is about keeping yourself out of problem situations and fighting on your terms, not derping through your opponent's options on a whim that they're throwing an attack at you instead of shielding or grabbing. I'm sorry, I really do like a lot of Project M, but their Bowser design has always felt fantastically wrong.
-Fire breath suggestions I kind of like. Good on that.

Only thing I disagree with is SA on down+B from project M. I still feel like when Bowser is moving downward, nothing should be able to stop him except the stage, a ledge or the blast zone. The move is just a gigantic pile of risk and it would be the one thing that would make opponents think twice about chasing us into the air.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I agree BB Aerial leaves Bowser wide open on landing and I feel the move needs complete Super Armor and not just intangibility on his legs. Which most attacks hit through anyway.

 

[MrEh]

Leg intangibility is a real slap in the face when Bowser Bomb is a BUTT stomp. Thanks Nintendo.

 

[Big-Cat]

Super armor this, and safer that. Not to be that guy, but you guys really just want him unstoppable.

Though I agree that DSmash needs SOMETHING, maybe a vacuum effect.

 

[Xandercosm]

Super armor this, and safer that. Not to be that guy, but you guys really just want him unstoppable.

Though I agree that DSmash needs SOMETHING, maybe a vacuum effect.

Vacuum effect? Yes, please!

 

[Big-Cat]

Well look at it this way. UpB can MOVE to get opponents. DSmash reels them in and does more damage, but is much less safe. You either pick the low risk or the high risk option. A vacuum effect could also prove to be VERY helpful against zoning heavy matchups.

Now that I think about it, DSmash already has a slight disjoint to it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Super armor this, and safer that. Not to be that guy, but you guys really just want him unstoppable.

Dude, my thoughts exactly. Heavy characters are supposed to be about weighing options, acting pre-emptively, and keeping away from problem scenarios. Long startup and endlag doesn't break a character. If great frame data and super armor was all you need to be Sheik-level, then Little Mac would shoot from bottom to top tier. Bowser is actually safer than most, especially on block. He'll get punished if the opponent knows what they're doing in their shields, but moves this powerful consistently push people out of their shieldgrab range, even when we're poorly spaced. And the average player still uses shieldgrab as their only OoS game after a succesful block. Tether grabs do reach us though, you have to respect those. We're in trouble when it comes to perfect parries, but so is everybody.

Also, you want to talk about safe? Try a 17 startup aerial command grab that is lagless upon landing. Landing flying slam from a short hop beats shielding and dodging. The only moves I can think of that are this fantastic on paper, are other command grabs that can be used from the air. Ganon's flame choke, and Diddy's Monkey Flip. Use Shorthop Fairs liberally to get your opponent conditioned to shielding, then switch it up to short hop Flying Slam. The fact that Bowsercide is bugged doesn't remove the possibility of us securing tons of kills with Flying Slam onstage.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Super armor this, and safer that. Not to be that guy, but you guys really just want him unstoppable.

I want a real tough guy mechanic though. And shellguard on all shell attacks.

Vacuum effect would be nice on dsmash.

I don't want Bowser to be unstoppable. I want characters that combo him to death to be stoppable.

 

[Xandercosm]

I just want Bowser to have super armor 24/7. All the time. Just super armor on everything wether or not he's doing a move. Infinite super armor.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I just want Bowser to have super armor 24/7. All the time. Just super armor on everything wether or not he's doing a move. Infinite super armor.

He'd like be a real tough guy and it breaks at like 100%. I would be A ok with that. Just like every Sheik is A ok with their needles and yolo kick aerials.

 

[S_B]

Super armor this, and safer that. Not to be that guy, but you guys really just want him unstoppable.

Unstoppable when he's falling through the air with a move that's going to make him sit there like a big, fat target for about a full second, sure, but that's the only instance of SA I think he should have.

As for things being "safer", Bowser has no poke (even jab can be punished by the right character) meaning that he has to get a read of some kind for literally every instance of dealing damage. There's also no approach he has that doesn't put him into a disadvantaged state, either. Since he cannot apply pressure to an opponent with a projectile (without customs, but no one uses customs, sadly), he's either standing there and powershielding forever or being forced to approach.

It'd be nice to have ONE reliable poke that could be thrown out in neutral without having to expect punishment the very next moment if it misses...

And honestly, if they just took some endlag frames off of F or Dtilt, we'd have that reliable poke so we could at least have something to contend with a dashdancing opponent who is trying to bait something out so they can run in and grab us...

Though I agree that DSmash needs SOMETHING, maybe a vacuum effect.

Yeah, Dsmash is still hot garbage.

If it consistently flung people either in the direction Bowser is facing or AWAY from the direction he's facing, we could actually use it for something. Since it's entirely random, it can either kill people we catch on the ledge with it, or fling them to safety even if they're at 110+%.

It'd be neat if they made it fling people in the direction we're holding after we start the move, but that'll never happen...

 

[Xandercosm]

It'd be neat if they made it fling people in the direction we're holding after we start the move, but that'll never happen...

All the horizontal launches. Oh, it would be beautiful. You could even read their ledge getup and then instantly meteor smash them just by doing a D-smash and holding diagonally down.