B4N (Battle For Norcal) June 4 downtown San Francisco

[I P Freely]

its Pwrfulfish, and he plays sheik. he wont be making it to the tourney though.

zoap, do you want to make our match a friendly? or $1, i guess that's okay too. whatever you want

 

[Zoap]

no prob

ni prob ip we will just friendly instead of mm.

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

wait okay, so what's the set time?

some people wanted 10-11am, some wanted 1pm?

it says 1pm on the first post...but there was also a concern about running too late?

 

[metroidcomposite]

Originally posted by ZeldaFreak0309
wait okay, so what's the set time?

some people wanted 10-11am, some wanted 1pm?

it says 1pm on the first post...but there was also a concern about running too late?

Yeah, sorry didn't read those posts suggesting starting earlier till now. One question: if we start before noon are we going to need to break for Lunch?

And...hmm, can anyone give me a good estimate, then, of how long these will run? Based on my own estimates, the singles will take about 2-3 hours (assuming 50 participants). I assume teams and low tier will have fewer participants (not everyone trains for them, and teams can at best have half as many entries) probably about 3 hours for those two, which would end things at 6 or 7. Does this seem about right?

EDIT: If nothing else, we'll probably have the TVs and smash set up a while before the first event starts, so that might be a decent time to get some of the money/friendlies out of the way.

Originally posted by Scamp
Furthermore, I'm not so sure that it's going to be possible to run four tournaments in one day. It depends on the number of people that show up, of course.

It sounds to me more like "people want to crew battle DBR" than "people want a crew tournament", so it'd make sense to me to not have any official organized crew tournament, but just have a few planned friendly/money crew matches against DBR at the end. Does this seem sensible?

Originally posted by Scamp
Get in touch with me? Just send me a PM. I'll see it eventually, no later than a few days. I haven't read much of the thread except for this last page so I wonder what this could be about.

It was reccomended that I contact you for help on seeding and organization; won't be too critical until closer to the tournament when we have a better idea of who's comming, I suppose.

 

[Zoap]

Earlier would be better

Earlier would be better cuz u can do low tier or teams first so that the SAT ppl dont miss singles.

50 or so ppl i would guess 4hrs if everything runs smooth if not it could take alot longer(singles that is).

Crew battles will probably take place some time b4 or after the tournies no official thing.

No Lunch Break nescessary, tell ppl to eat b4 or bring food.

Scamp is a genious seeder/ Tourney organizer.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I would like to crew battle every crew that shows up.

 

[Volroth]

I'd do a crew battle but our crew is only three members, Z bane is back home in central cal, I'm going to Hanford for the tournament down there on June 11th with Hyuga. I haven't been in contact with my crew members for long time now, were like a on and off crew. I'll definately join in the battle against DBR though.

 

[metroidcomposite]

Re: Earlier would be better

Originally posted by Zoap
Earlier would be better cuz u can do low tier or teams first so that the SAT ppl dont miss singles.

The SAT people don't miss singles either way.

50 or so ppl i would guess 4hrs if everything runs smooth if not it could take alot longer(singles that is).

This...doesn't add up to me. The estimated time per match was 2-3 minutes, with 5 minutes if two really good people face each other. Sets of best two out of three then take 15 minutes (on the upper end). Double elimination for 50 people is 100 sets. So 1500 minutes spread over 10 televisions is 150 minutes (2.5 hours). Granted, when 19 people are left uneliminated you won't be able to occupy every TV, and finals are best 3 of 5 instead of 2 out of 3; on the other hand, 10 is an underestimate of the number of TVs we'll have (12 at least) so that should cancel to an extent.

There's probably stuff I'm not thinking of, but 4hrs would imply that either we have less than half our TVs occupied on average, or that sets take over 15 minutes on average. Am I missing something significant?

Crew battles will probably take place some time b4 or after the tournies no official thing.

Righto--I'll edit the official Crew stuff out of the first post.

 

[I P Freely]

our crew would like to crew battle you guys too, simna.
and any other crews that come

 

[Zoap]

There are other factors

There are factors like ppl just chatin a little b4 each match, ppl being in the rr when its there turn, getting everyone to get off a tv so u can use it for an official match, finding a person who neither party is affiliated with for a dbl blind pick, there are many things and thats why i estimated that high. Lets face it were all not robots who do everything perfect, something always will go wrong. I would estimate 3.5 to 4 hrs for singles even if you dont think it will take this long. Team and LTT on the other hand will def not take nearly as long but the reason i think 3.5-4 hrs is that even if everything is runnin smoothly there are little things that get in the way.

EDIT: KREW we accept ur challenge 4v4, Kish Crew Battle Rules

 

[I P Freely]

oh i forgot... only 3 of us will be at the tourney

 

[Zoap]

ip freely

well tech by crew standards a crew is 4- 16 ppl, but screw the rules. You guys will just have more lives then us. 24/3 is 8 for u guys 24/4 is 6 for us. KREW vs BPS stil happenin.

EDIT: Just so Krew knows this is the kish crew system:

The Kish system has variations but here is the base idea. Say you have 2 crews of 4 members each. Each crew gets 24 stock to devide evenly among the members (6 stock in this case). (or in our case u guys get 8 per person)

Then you pick starters (usually kept secret from other crew, and if you want characters as well). The first two square off, and the winner plays on. That winner retains the stock that he had left at the end of the match, minus the damage. (This Is Important)To start the next game, have the person suicide to the right number of stock or that person can sub out after they won, still having only the few stock they had at the end of the battle, but a differant person goes in with there full stock. Stages in the standard Kish system, is limited to only 3 neatral stages (BF, PS, FD) losing crew picks from those 3.


Now in the Kish system, you only play with the stock you have, in other words, once you lose your 5 stock, you cannot have anymore. You keep playing until all the stock you have is gone.

 

[Scamp]

To further expand on what Zoap is saying, here's the deal with time...

Each game should take about 5 minutes, unless one of the players is really bad. At this point in the game, most of the people who enter tournaments are pretty decent, and won't get themselves killed so easily. Any match containing one or more of Samus, Peach, or Jigglypuff will easily go longer than 5 minutes assuming non-suckage.

You gotta decide how hardcore you want to be in running a tournament. When people get eliminated they usually want to play casuals instead of watch, which not only takes away TVs but can distract people who are still in the tourney. This makes it harder to find people for their matches. Even without any casuals allowed you still have to find people and people have to setup for their match. You also have to consider if someone wants to watch the last round of another match or something like that.

The number of TVs you can use gets low pretty quickly. Often times a bracket will become stilted due to a few matches ending really quickly and a few more going longer. This isn't really a problem per se, but it does mean that the tournament will last as long as the longest matches in a group, because those need to finish in order for the rest of the brackets to move on.

Not to mention other common things like bathroom breaks, eating, resting in general, discussion of rules, judgements if a dispute comes up, power failure, etc.

Also not discussed at all is the time it takes to set up a bracket. You could do it all randomly, but most people appreciate it if you separate them from the people they came with to the tourney. You don't want to pay money just to play against the people you play with all the time anyway, unless it's the finals. It's also nice to do some general seeding, but that's not always easy.


Still, it is possible to run things exceedingly smoothly, in which case a 2-3 hour tourney could still be possible. You just have to run it harcore, and hope things turn out right.

 

[Zoap]

Scamp speaks the truth, thou would be wise to listen...

 

[The Game II]

Originally posted by Scamp
Also not discussed at all is the time it takes to set up a bracket. You could do it all randomly, but most people appreciate it if you separate them from the people they came with to the tourney. You don't want to pay money just to play against the people you play with all the time anyway, unless it's the finals. It's also nice to do some general seeding, but that's not always easy.

I believe that at the very least metroidcomposite, you really should set up the brackets to prevent common people from facing each other.

You could do what other TOs have done in the past and do it in this order...

Family
Team
School
Venue
City
Region
State

Usually, I pull aside everyone I don't know or haven't seen compete before and ask them if they know anyone competing in the tournament or have any friends. And it's in their best interest to tell the truth, because even they don't want to face their friends early.

There's a chance some teammates might meet up in the losers' bracket. Oh well, just tell them not to lose.

--GCII

 

[metroidcomposite]

Hmm...can probably push it back as early as 11am or so, though I'll have to catch the producer on that one tomorrow (already headed home for the evening). If we do decide to do this....

To people who have SATs, would you rather do teams or do Low Tier tournament?

Originally posted by Scamp
You gotta decide how hardcore you want to be in running a tournament.

Hmm...well I'd have to ask, but I'm assuming people at the office will lean towards running it reasonably hardcore for a few reasons....

1. As far as I know, the entire group of game designers are going to be around to observe; it's possible some of them may want to go home eventually.
2. When I say "at least 12 TVs" I mean at least 12 running SSBM. Last I checked the producer had schemes to talk the people who've been knocked out into a consolation SSS tournament (the game we're working on). I'm expecting something like 15 TVs for pure SSBM tournament use, and however many TVs the producer feels like for people who've been knocked out of the tournament. So...nobody should ever be stuck with watching.

(And obviously when the SSBM tournament is down below 16 people, there'll be no use for more than 8 TVs, so friendlies on the extra 6-9 SSBM TVs are all good). On another note, I just realized that it's not inconceivable we'll have 50 people, and 25 TVs running at least some fighting game. >_>

Also not discussed at all is the time it takes to set up a bracket. You could do it all randomly, but most people appreciate it if you separate them from the people they came with to the tourney. You don't want to pay money just to play against the people you play with all the time anyway, unless it's the finals. It's also nice to do some general seeding, but that's not always easy.

I might be able to write a script to do something along those lines. Here's my thoughts:

Seeding's not simple--just look at the debates over who will represent Norcal. Furthermore, seeding can contradict the "not facing crew members" stuff. My instinct is to seed the top 8-15 players, and just go with location for the rest. Though you may have better ideas.
As for location....

You could do what other TOs have done in the past and do it in this order...

Family
Team
School
Venue
City
Region
State

Yeah, that does look sensible.

Granted, won't be instant either way. (Even with a good script, there'll be data to enter as people arrive).

Though, for all I know Scamp may have a bracket script already....

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

do teams first, i wanna make it for low tier tourney

 

[I P Freely]

so if you get knocked out, do you have to play SSS the whole time? i mean, i wanna try out your new game, but i also want to get in some SSBM freeplay. maybe you could reserve a few tv's for freeplay?

for the brackets, just make sure i dont go against zeldafreak or smooth criminal for a long time

oh, and zoap, our crew has 4 people, but one of them cant make the tourney. the crew battle you explained sounds good, though.

also, when do you expect the tourney to end?

 

[The Game II]

Originally posted by metroidcomposite
Seeding's not simple--just look at the debates over who will represent Norcal. Furthermore, seeding can contradict the "not facing crew members" stuff. My instinct is to seed the top 8-15 players, and just go with location for the rest. Though you may have better ideas.

Since this is likely NorCal dominated, you could do it a couple ways...

Team seeding
Say, have each team put up their top 4 in order. The top four are seeded accordingly, the remaining members (if any) are put in the rest of the pool; however, they would still be prevented from meeting a team member early. If you get four teams, then that's 16 players. I've seen this done in several competitions, and it's worked.

Regional seeding
I did this in my last tournament and it worked pretty well.

Divide NorCal up into regions.

Let's say that San Francisco is the West Region, San Jose is the South Region, Oakland is the East Region and Santa Rosa is the North Region.

From there, pick a player from each city that will be the 1 seed. Of course, this changes if you can't find a person from each city (which is unlikely, there should be at least 1 great player from each region).

Then, pick 4 other great players. They'll be the 2 seeds, but don't put them in the region where they're from.

From there, fill the brackets, but don't put players in their region unless you run out of spaces (ie: anyone from Salinas should not be in the South bracket, anyone from The City should not be in the West bracket). This prevents the eight seeded players from possibly meeting up with a friend until possibly the final 8 winners bracket. This idea is a take off of the NCAA tournament.

If everything works out, the final 4 in the winners bracket will include 4 players from different cities.

I'm guessing Scamp has a program or has knowlege of doing this with the snap of his fingers.

--GCII

 

[metroidcomposite]

Originally posted by I P Freely
so if you get knocked out, do you have to play SSS the whole time? i mean, i wanna try out your new game, but i also want to get in some SSBM freeplay. maybe you could reserve a few tv's for freeplay?

I have three responses...

1. Entirely possible. We'll likely improvise depending on where the interest lies.
2. You're not forced to play SSS--in fact we'll need some people watching the SSBM matches for stall tactics and we'll need people willing to be impartial third parties for double-blind.
3. As mentioned, once enough people have been knocked out of the SSBM tournament, the extra SSBM TVs can certainly be allocated for freeplay. (Which shouldn't take too long depending on the exact number of TVs--probably less than an hour after the first people get knocked out).

I'm guessing Scamp has a program or has knowlege of doing this with the snap of his fingers.

Wouldn't surprise me--I'll wait for him to reply, though.

 

[Nekurbis86]

I'd just like to say we are definately getting somewhere and metroidcomposite your doing a great job =)



hmMmm I think I'd rather try to get in LTT *-*

 

[I P Freely]

yeah great job metroidcomposite
sounds like more of the SAT people want to be in LTT instead of teams
as long as i can get some ssbm freeplay, im willing to watch other matches for a while and try out SSS.

 

[Scamp]

It's kinda nice having people write that they're waiting for me to reply. Makes you feel needed, although I don't think I'm going to be much help.

I personally do not have a program or anything like that to print out brackets, although I know quite a few that do. I think the best person to ask for that right now is M3D, as he's the most likely to get your message. I've seen him use some kind of computer program to run his brackets, and obviously he's done this a lot.

Seeding is only truly accurate when you've already got a good grasp on the talent level of the tourney participants. Seeding is easy at something like TG or MLG because you already know who the top players are based on previous results. It's rare that a bunch of unknowns are going to upset the balance of the brackets. Usually it's at most one or two people. So if you just separate the knowns you should be fine. If one or two seeds get KOed, the bracket balance is still there.

The problem is that there haven't been a lot of tournaments recently in this area, especially after the last TG. So since we don't really know the relative strength of people, it's more important to separate by group.

And, as far as I know, DBR have proven themselves as the ones to beat in this area. It seems like it would be easiest to just have DBR as all the seeds, which is kind of like just separating by groups anyway. I'd actually like to hear any opinions on this if anyone thinks they deserve to be seeded along with DBR.


As for the snap of my fingers....I can draw up a bracket and place people pretty quickly. The trick is not only separating people by group so they don't meet up in the winners bracket but also in the losers bracket as well. That's the tricky part.

However most tourney organizers basically say that if you go to the losers bracket all bets are off. There's no safety in meeting up with someone from your own region.

 

[Mike Nasty]

yes i agree with scamp dbr should be the first people seeded
and I also agree with him when he says that dbr is the best and
as far as i know practically unbeatable but that is only what i have heard i mean what do I know

 

[The Game II]

Originally posted by Scamp
And, as far as I know, DBR have proven themselves as the ones to beat in this area. It seems like it would be easiest to just have DBR as all the seeds, which is kind of like just separating by groups anyway. I'd actually like to hear any opinions on this if anyone thinks they deserve to be seeded along with DBR.

Is there another superstar team out there in NorCal that's coming? If not, then I don't mind four members of DBR taking the No. 1 seeds. I'm sure future tournaments will take into mind what happens here and at other venues.

However most tourney organizers basically say that if you go to the losers bracket all bets are off. There's no safety in meeting up with someone from your own region.

And I'm one of those who believes in this theory. Although, in my tournament earlier this year, I don't think any teammate or any friend had to face each other in the losers' bracket. I got this pre-made bracket where everything was all set from the get-go.

--GCII

 

[Zoap]

lol

lol at nasty

I also agree with scamp and nasty, as far as other seeding it would be tough but there are others that are also in a class higher than most(Silentspectre and Tang). As far as others i cant really recommend anyone without being biased in my opinion.

 

[ender]

Im not quite sure how seeding works, but it might help since most people in norcal are in crews, and most of the crews have 4-6 people in them, so that might help.

 

[Volroth]

I say let DBR do the rest of the seeding. They have played almost everyone in Norcal so they would know everyone the best.

 

[The GERM]

hey guys, DSF is coming......

 

[Volroth]

awesomeness... anyone else from socal/out of state coming? What about Isai?

 

[I P Freely]

so all of dbr is going + perpetual zero + DSF? man.. i has hoping i wouldnt lose in the first round in this one

 

[smashmaster0]

dont know about dsf but dbr and perpetual zero yes

 

[metroidcomposite]

Okay, I haven't heard any requests for teams from the people doing SATs. Talking to the Producer he seems to think noon would be a better idea than 11 am. I'll tentatively switch to noon, and if there's a lot of requests to push it earlier then I'll talk to him again.

 

[Geo]

Word is Isai is coming too.

B4N is gonna be too crazy.

 

[Sm00th_Crim1nal]

Originally posted by Nephilim
Word is Isai is coming too.

B4N is gonna be too crazy.

This is gettin pretty sexy.....

 

[Marthby87]

LOL there goes my hopes, dreams, and chance of winning this. XD

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Glide just told me that he and at least one other person from his crew are coming up from Arizona for this tournament.

 

[smashmaster0]

this tournament is going to be so kool

 

[metroidcomposite]

Right, just counting people here to get a better idea of how many to plan for; don't know the crews too well (in fact I simply read through this topic writing names into notepad) so any help would be greatly appreciated.

KR3W?!
-3 people
* ZeldaFreak0309
* I P Freely
* Sm00th_Crim1nal

DBR
-7 people
* The GERM
* Bob Money
* Zelgadîs
* Mike Masty
* Clod-Zero
* The Sweetness
* Bob Money
* (Perpetual Zero)

Teamscape
-8 people
* Milk
* Kev$
* Geo
* Ender
* Simna
* B
* Malix
* Uraj

Cruxis
-3 people
* Volroth
* (?) Gokuzen
*
* (?) Azn_Danny

DSF
-??? people

Glide+1 other person from Arizona crew
-2 people



Other people who posted that they may come, or were talked about, but whom I haven't identified with a crew as of yet:

burnt toast
C1b3r_Fu510n
canoshiz (?)
ender
HugS
Hyuga
Isai
Jack of Spades
Jeff AKA Rae128 AKA aznspikes
Kawn
Kurtis
Largo
Liability
Marthby87
Mitchell Tang
Nek
Nephilim
Scamp
silentspectre
Sheridan
ShortShortShorts
smashmaster0
Snap
SNKE
The Game II
x_cal
Zoap
(27 people, but I may have repeats for usernames/actual names).

 

[Zoap]

metroid

Ok heres the run down Im the leader of the Blue Phoenixes and 4 of us will be showing up. These 4 include
Zoap
Snap
Hero
Kawn(smashmaster0)

as far as i know dmh and the kid cant make it but will update u if they can.

BTW: You have Ender on both Teamscape and alone list, Geo=Nephilim and Sherridan=Hyuga. And as for Tang/Nek/Largo they are China Towns Most Wanted. Hope this helps ^^