attempt at matchup thread

[SageMeson]

ok i know this has been done to death, but surely a matchup chart for smash64 isnt impossible? if we discussed each characters matchups for few days and collected the input of various experienced players?

ps im not a counterpick *****, i love the balance in this game. im just curious about the strengths and weaknesses of various characters.

what do you guys think?

 

[Zantetsu]

We had a thread going with some good ones. I think it was Wenbobular who made the best one, imo. I'll try and find it later today if no one else attempts.

 

[Winston]

ok i know this has been done to death, but surely a matchup chart for smash64 isnt impossible? if we discussed each characters matchups for few days and collected the input of various experienced players?

ps im not a counterpick *****, i love the balance in this game. im just curious about the strengths and weaknesses of various characters.

what do you guys think?

What is a counterpick *****?

Also, I'd really love for this to happen. However, I've found that the good players, whose input would be the most valuable, just don't really care. (I am not including myself in the "good players" category).

So basically it's impossible to decide.

Go for it though, if it happens it'd be really awesome.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Moogle made the best one…way to lazy to dig that up though

 

[SageMeson]

yeah i found it and am just typing it into a better format for editing. its decent but need work and input from a few people. the first mistakes that strike me are:
-ness being overrated (eg no way he has advantage over mario)
-link being underrated (admittedly his matchups are bad but i dont think theyre THAT bad in comparison to samus'.

yeah too tired to list others atm. if people are willing we could probably have a good chart before too long. ill post my copy of moogles chart in a sec.

 

[Surri-Sama]

yeah i found it and am just typing it into a better format for editing. its decent but need work and input from a few people. the first mistakes that strike me are:
-ness being overrated (eg no way he has advantage over mario)
-link being underrated (admittedly his matchups are bad but i dont think theyre THAT bad in comparison to samus'.

yeah too tired to list others atm. if people are willing we could probably have a good chart before too long. ill post my copy of moogles chart in a sec.

Match-up thread will fail!

 

[Winston]

yeah i found it and am just typing it into a better format for editing. its decent but need work and input from a few people. the first mistakes that strike me are:
-ness being overrated (eg no way he has advantage over mario)
-link being underrated (admittedly his matchups are bad but i dont think theyre THAT bad in comparison to samus'.

yeah too tired to list others atm. if people are willing we could probably have a good chart before too long. ill post my copy of moogles chart in a sec.

rofl @ ness being overrated

if you let me be a part of this at all then there's no way ness is gonna be overrated ^__^

how old is moogle's chart, anyway?

 

[MattNF]

Ness is overrated.

 

[SageMeson]

mmm not sure. pretty old. its matchups seem to be too heavily influenced by the old tier list we have. only in very few cases does a lower tier char beat a higher tier char. eg jiggs is 50-50 with dk lol. and yeah ness is the char im best with and understand the best, hes definately overrated. at an absolute peak he'd be mid tier and not as good as mario. about on par with jiggs. and that takes insane djc'ing skills.
so yeah have a look at the chart and suggest changes.

ps im too lazy to actually paste moogles matchup chart cos its formatting is gay. email me if you want a spreadsheet version..

 

[Winston]

mmm not sure. pretty old. its matchups seem to be too heavily influenced by the old tier list we have. only in very few cases does a lower tier char beat a higher tier char. eg jiggs is 50-50 with dk lol. and yeah ness is the char im best with and understand the best, hes definately overrated. at an absolute peak he'd be mid tier and not as good as mario. about on par with jiggs. and that takes insane djc'ing skills.
so yeah have a look at the chart and suggest changes.

ps im too lazy to actually paste moogles matchup chart cos its formatting is gay. email me if you want a spreadsheet version..

I agree, Ness shouldn't be in the top half of the tier list. He's not that good of a character.

also nobody should ever look at the old tier list. I'm really upset that it's still linked to in the stickies.

^__^

 

[Surri-Sama]

i once heard the perfect description for this situation

"Your Dum"


...

or whats it "Yur Dum"...¿


either way this thread is it...

 

[Lawrencelot]

Ness's uptilt is gay. There are a lot of characters that approach with dair, and that doesn't work against Ness. His uair is also too good. I don't see a lot of Mario's and I'm not good with Mario, but Ness shouldn't move that much lower than third place imo, although putting him with kirby and pika isn't right.

 

[NixxxoN]

Ness's uptilt is gay. There are a lot of characters that approach with dair, and that doesn't work against Ness. His uair is also too good. I don't see a lot of Mario's and I'm not good with Mario, but Ness shouldn't move that much lower than third place imo, although putting him with kirby and pika isn't right.

lol true, you must approach Ness with an horizontal attack. Fox and Falcon are above Ness imo, hard to say about Mario.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Ness's uptilt is gay. There are a lot of characters that approach with dair, and that doesn't work against Ness. His uair is also too good. I don't see a lot of Mario's and I'm not good with Mario, but Ness shouldn't move that much lower than third place imo, although putting him with kirby and pika isn't right.

Smart man!

If ever we do try to get a serious change done ill be counting on YOU! to hlp me defend Ness

 

[Wenbobular]

Ness's uptilt is laggy as crap.
Also, I think craiigg deserves a PM about that tier list, which I hear is quoted in his Smash index thingy...

 

[Lawrencelot]

Ness's uptilt is laggy as crap.
Also, I think craiigg deserves a PM about that tier list, which I hear is quoted in his Smash index thingy...

It's not laggy... there is as good as no starting lag and although the move lasts a long time, the hitbox also stays out a long time.

 

[Superstar]

<3 <3 Law

Much easier to use against someone approaching, than going to someone with it. If you manage a dair though you're pretty much golden in most percents. Also seems to have a good amount of range/priority, but I don't know exactly.

And, before anyone mentions usmash, it's a combo move. Be nice if it was like Mario's usmash, but it's not useless.

I see a lot of Mario's. They camp at the edge chucking fireballs and hope for a bthrow. XD

Matchup chart should only list advantage/disadvantage to make it easier. Discussing how much is, well...wouldn't work out right.

 

[MattNF]

Fox, Pika, Falcon, Mario, and Kirby are all easily better than ness

 

[Wenbobular]

~_~ it isn't as fast as Kirby's nor does it have nearly as much priority. I don't like it

 

[Winston]

Matchup chart should only list advantage/disadvantage to make it easier. Discussing how much is, well...wouldn't work out right.

To be honest the current trend in the other games is to put numbers on the matchups (though the numbers inevitably are multiples of 5).

The chart should have 5 ratings - large disadvantage, disadvantage, neutral, advantage, large advantage. At least.

 

[Superstar]

I know, I just said that. SSB64 scene is too small to be able to discern advantage/large advantage. But, if you so so. It's all subjective though, so you should say what kind of matchup would make it "large".

 

[Winston]

I know, I just said that. SSB64 scene is too small to be able to discern advantage/large advantage. But, if you so so. It's all subjective though, so you should say what kind of matchup would make it "large".

I mean, I think it's pretty clear that there's a difference between, say, a mario vs pikachu disadvantage and a link vs pikachu disadvantage.

 

[Superstar]

Well, yeah. But what is a large advantage/disadvantage should be, well, defined. Otherwise, you leave things to subjective opinion.

Mario vs Pika is either advantage Pikachu or neutral, one of the two. Ness vs Pika is advantage Pika or hard advantage Pika. Ness vs Mario is advantage Mario or hard advantage Mario [not as bad as Pika]. Mario vs Falcon is advantage Mario, and I feel Ness vs Falcon is also advantage Ness [Falcon can't force an approach too well], just not as large as Mario has it.

Just some thoughts. Maybe the initial version should be ONLY advantage/disadvantage, and once it's done, then apply hard/soft advantages looking at the absolute worst of them.

 

[*Jose*]

oh lol hehehe

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I mean, I think it's pretty clear that there's a difference between, say, a mario vs pikachu disadvantage and a link vs pikachu disadvantage.

Pikachu can backthrow link off the edge, and also combo him to infinity.

Link can combo pikachu pretty decently with utilt uair nair bair etc, dair serves as a great counter to pikachu's up b if predicted..

I dunno I can play devil's advocate anyday, it all comes down to "Who is playing link?"

At top level with both players at equal skill (How often does that happen?) Then yes I would say the tier list would decide the winner to a degree with a certain margin of error for the mid/high tiers. Kirby and pikachu are clearly the top tiers however for obvious reaons no one wants to go over in this thread.

 

[Skrlx]

the Tier List is a representation of what would it be like if everybody played the same crappy way showing that some characters have more priority over others.. and THAT'S IT.

just because you picked pikachu and you're playing a Link player doesn't mean you're gonna automatically win because the tier list said so.. (you might have some sorts of advantages but if the link player is good you're done for)

It all comes down to the person. SKILL. no Tiers here.


/endtierargument

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

tires don...

*yawn*

 

[Wenbobular]

No Dair, that doesn't end the tier argument v_v
It's widely agreed upon that certain characters are better than others, and as long as that exists, an accurate tier list exists...somewhere. ~_~
Also, usually tier lists debate what character would win if the players were of equal skill level playing the game at a competent level.

 

[Winston]

first of all, which of us mentioned tiers at all? rofl ... but, going in order...

Well, yeah. But what is a large advantage/disadvantage should be, well, defined. Otherwise, you leave things to subjective opinion.

Mario vs Pika is either advantage Pikachu or neutral, one of the two. Ness vs Pika is advantage Pika or hard advantage Pika. Ness vs Mario is advantage Mario or hard advantage Mario [not as bad as Pika]. Mario vs Falcon is advantage Mario, and I feel Ness vs Falcon is also advantage Ness [Falcon can't force an approach too well], just not as large as Mario has it.

Just some thoughts. Maybe the initial version should be ONLY advantage/disadvantage, and once it's done, then apply hard/soft advantages looking at the absolute worst of them.

Ness doesn't beat Falcon, and neither does Mario. Even at worst for falcon.

your point about subjectivity doesn't seem that valid to me because if you really want to you can call ANY matchup evaluation subjective. There's no algorithm or experimental procedure we're going by. It is subjective in a sense, sure. but that's unavoidable. And as long as we're at it I feel it's better to make more precise claims that may not necessarily be 100% accurate vs imprecise claims that are less debatable but less informative as well.

I mean if you want a definition then you could say 45-55% is even, 55-70% is advantage, 70% and up is large advantage... not sure if that's what you were looking for.

I personally think hard/soft advantage is unambitious enough, but w/e. I would just go ahead and update my old chart and post it again, but nobody would agree with me and then people would come in and tell us to stop discussing tiers and matchups.

speaking of...

Pikachu can backthrow link off the edge, and also combo him to infinity.

Link can combo pikachu pretty decently with utilt uair nair bair etc, dair serves as a great counter to pikachu's up b if predicted..

I dunno I can play devil's advocate anyday, it all comes down to "Who is playing link?"

At top level with both players at equal skill (How often does that happen?) Then yes I would say the tier list would decide the winner to a degree with a certain margin of error for the mid/high tiers. Kirby and pikachu are clearly the top tiers however for obvious reaons no one wants to go over in this thread.

Fox and Falcon are also clearly top tier material. It's also ironic that you replied like that considering the OP wanted to make a matchup chart, not a tier list.

the Tier List is a representation of what would it be like if everybody played the same crappy way showing that some characters have more priority over others.. and THAT'S IT.

just because you picked pikachu and you're playing a Link player doesn't mean you're gonna automatically win because the tier list said so.. (you might have some sorts of advantages but if the link player is good you're done for)

It all comes down to the person. SKILL. no Tiers here.

/endtierargument

.......

I really can't believe some people are so against us having theoretical matchup discussions on these boards... it's just something we like to do...

Also I fully understand the concept of Player Skill, I've played Isai's link before... haha...

 

[Skrlx]

No Dair, that doesn't end the tier argument v_v
It's widely agreed upon that certain characters are better than others, and as long as that exists, an accurate tier list exists...somewhere. ~_~
Also, usually tier lists debate what character would win if the players were of equal skill level playing the game at a competent level.

Yeah i know but you guys just somehow in every thread end up discussing about tiers

.......

I really can't believe some people are so against us having theoretical matchup discussions on these boards... it's just something we like to do...

Also I fully understand the concept of Player Skill, I've played Isai's link before... haha...

i'm not against it or anything i play competitive smash and i agree the tier list is right BUT read what i said to wenbobular. besides, what i said is basically true lol

i do believe though that weegee for top tier!

 

[Wenbobular]

It's because our community is too small to actually agree on anything, and no one cares enough to try. Plus everyone who's actually good at this game seems miles ahead of the mediocre dudes. ;~;

 

[Superstar]

Falcon has a hard time comboing Mario [harder than most, he's a floaty]. Mario's fireballs can force an appraoch/**** over his projectile-less self. Mario can still combo him fine, catching him in larger uair chains than many other chars. Falcon's recovery sucks as bad as Ness [give or take, it's horrible], and Mario's **** at edgeguarding. If that's not enough, Mario can STILL kill Falcon at a reasonably high [78ish] percent off the top anyways with a usmash. Falcon though, can't be easily comboed by Mario until the 50s, can dodge fireballs better, and I THINK his nair can block fireballs. Fox is a different story. Not hard advantage though. Just seems slight to me.

Ness' only real merits is that Falcon lacks a projectile so he can play more defensive vs Falcon than he would versus, say Mario, and Falcon is EASY to combo with Ness. Ness isn't a floaty, so Falcon can combo Ness fine, and they both **** each other's recoveries [Ness has an easier time with his throws, but that's about it]. That one can be argued much more than Falcon vs Mario.

By subjective, I mean, what IS considered a major advantage. I know an algorithm is impossible to do, but, it'd still be good to define what is a hard counter. Is it something that just has it better by a larger margin, or a matchup where you just cannot win unless you're a god [more for Brawl than 64ish]. Or would you go by picking the worst matchups, then going down until you "that's enough"?

Agreed with Wen. And yes, these arguments are fun. :D I look serious, but if I were, I'd be shouting insults. :D

 

[Winston]

Falcon has a hard time comboing Mario [harder than most, he's a floaty]. Mario's fireballs can force an appraoch/**** over his projectile-less self. Mario can still combo him fine, catching him in larger uair chains than many other chars. Falcon's recovery sucks as bad as Ness [give or take, it's horrible], and Mario's **** at edgeguarding. If that's not enough, Mario can STILL kill Falcon at a reasonably high [78ish] percent off the top anyways with a usmash. Falcon though, can't be easily comboed by Mario until the 50s, can dodge fireballs better, and I THINK his nair can block fireballs. Fox is a different story. Not hard advantage though. Just seems slight to me.

Falcon has the maneuverability and priority in this matchup and that's what makes it hard for Mario. The attributes you stated make it only a small disadvantage for mario. I remember I played boomfan's mario a long time ago and I wasn't very good then (not that I am now), but he commented on how hard it was for mario to do anything in the matchup.

Ness' only real merits is that Falcon lacks a projectile so he can play more defensive vs Falcon than he would versus, say Mario, and Falcon is EASY to combo with Ness. Ness isn't a floaty, so Falcon can combo Ness fine, and they both **** each other's recoveries [Ness has an easier time with his throws, but that's about it]. That one can be argued much more than Falcon vs Mario.

They can combo each other. They can both gimp each other. Ness doesn't have aerial maneuverability or an approach so that screws him over, like it does in all his matchups. Ness definitely doesn't win this one.

By subjective, I mean, what IS considered a major advantage. I know an algorithm is impossible to do, but, it'd still be good to define what is a hard counter. Is it something that just has it better by a larger margin, or a matchup where you just cannot win unless you're a god [more for Brawl than 64ish]. Or would you go by picking the worst matchups, then going down until you "that's enough"?

I mean there's nothing drastic separating "advantage" from "large" advantage, I'd think. It's the difference between 60-40 and 70-30 (and beyond) is how I think of it. Dunno if you have a problem with theoretical matchup ratios.

About the original idea: does anyone want me to update and post my matchup chart? >.>

 

[Superstar]

Probably that's because of the 50% thing.

Mario cannot really begin to combo Falcon until Falcon hits 50%, or 40% if he starts with a dair, or lower with a tip of dair to falling uair [if you have to start with dair to combo, well, your Mario sucks, startups with a fastfalled uair seem to come much more in handy, and Mario cannot reliably start a combo with dair most of the time cause it's obvious to see coming]. When he combos, he hits Falcon hard, but he needs to bring up the percent first, which requires grab whoring, random aerials, and fireball spam, the latter Falcon can dodge reasonably well.

Also, in Ness vs Falcon, Ness can punish approaches better than Falcon [uair/utilt as was mentioned somewhere]. So although Ness doesn't have a good approach, he can punish Falcon's approaches better than Falcon can punish his. I don't doubt if it's advantage Falcon, but at least give some cred arguments where they are due.

Eh, go ahead if you want. XD

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Falcon ***** ness because there's no real reason ness should make it back to the stage and ness isn't too floaty to combo. If falcon gets hit by ness with some djc **** he should either take major damage or die, same thing if ness gets grabbed. I think it's advantage to falcon, where as mario has an advantage over falcon I agree with superstar.

I could go on and on, I wish we could have a sub forum for specific matchups, maybe we should start an independant small forum just for specific ssb64 matchup discussion and tips and strategy falcon vs luigi falcon vs mario etc, it'd be a goldmine of information.

 

[Superstar]

A thread for each matchup is nice, but that's still a lot of matchups...144-12 = 132 threads...yeesh. It's still a goldmine of infos.

No reason Falcon should make it back to the stage either vs Ness, unless he's on Hyrule and Ness couldn't make it to the edge before Falcon recovered. Ness is slower.

 

[Lawrencelot]

I can agree that Falcon vs Ness is a + for Falcon. But Falcon gets ***** by most characters with a good dair drill, like Kirby and Jiggs and Mario (with good I mean, good combo starters), because one of Falcon's weaknesses is that he's so tall. I've played a Falcon that has just learned advanced techniques, and he did decent (3 stock for me or so) against my characters, but he couldn't do a thing when I used jiggly or kirby. And jiggs is also too floaty for Falcon to combo.

If you don't get what I'm after, it's that I'm not sure whether I agree that Ness should be below Falcon

 

[Surri-Sama]

Ness should be below Falcon and maybe Fox, but not Mario

 

[Superstar]

Ness should be below Falcon and Fox. They > Ness. But, this is technically a matchup thread, so meh.

Mario can't do as much after a dair as Jiggs/Kirby can, unless he hits with a tip of dair or Falcon's damage is reasonably high enough.

A real Falcon weakness are floaties.

 

[MattNF]

I think Ness vs Falcon is 50-50. Ness can get REALLY easy gimps and can combo Falcon very easily. Falcon can do the same to him, but has a harder time approaching a campy Ness. The best he can really do is try to b-air -> grab, but that won't work if the Ness utilts right. It all depends on how campy the Ness is.

Mario vs Falcon is like 60-40 for Mario.

Mario vs Ness is like 65-35 for Mario. Mario should NOT lose this matchup, it's very easy to win even if you fight a good Ness.