Atlantic North Brawl vs Melee Debate

[mog87]

lol@ you guys not realizing a troll, come on he was obviously trying to get everyone riled up, and is probably laughing that he got real responses. I dont think it takes a long post to prove melee is superior to brawl, even stevie wonder can see that even n64 smash is superior to brawl.

 

[Scar]

We realize he's a troll, Wesley said he was bored and wanted to **** the kid. So he did, and we all appreciated it. Also Mog apparently like some number over 50% of the community is under the impression that Brawl is in fact a comparable game... yes I agree it seems clear as day that this is false but that's not the way the rest of the community sees it.

 

[-Aether]

I think most competetive gamers (and rational thinkers) realize that Brawl has a huge hype and buzz about it because it's the newest game in a successful franchise. However, the competetive videogaming world, as well as the successful people in the community know the Melee is the prefered game to have 20 grand cash prizes on the line with.

My point; we should all calm down until the Brawl hype dies out. Just because it's a new game does not mean it's the future. Plenty of older games with sequels out are played competetively.

I say this as a competetive Melee and Brawl player, regardless of where the future takes us. I like both games, but I think melee is the better game from a competetive point of view.

 

[pockyD]

However, the competetive videogaming world, as well as the successful people in the community know the Melee is the prefered game to have 20 grand cash prizes on the line with

no they don't

 

[Venom NY]

I think most competetive gamers (and rational thinkers) realize that Brawl has a huge hype and buzz about it because it's the newest game in a successful franchise. However, the competetive videogaming world, as well as the successful people in the community know the Melee is the prefered game to have 20 grand cash prizes on the line with.

My point; we should all calm down until the Brawl hype dies out. Just because it's a new game does not mean it's the future. Plenty of older games with sequels out are played competetively.

I say this as a competetive Melee and Brawl player, regardless of where the future takes us. I like both games, but I think melee is the better game from a competetive point of view.

no they don't

well i agree if i were fighting for 20 grand i would want it for a GOOD game

 

[Mew2King]

the reason Brawl isn't nearly as fun is because of all the defensive options buffered to the max, while offensive moves, and most aerial attacks as approaches are horrible now with most characters compared to block spamming. Even without that, playing smart is fine but the game gets BORING. Long combo strings are FUN, hit and run is effective in Brawl but NOT exciting to watch at all. Brawl has a thing called newness and popularity and scrubs, and that's why it's going to be so successful.

 

[boss8]

we will be back with more oprah

 

[Grmo]

the reason Brawl isn't nearly as fun is because of all the defensive options buffered to the max, while offensive moves, and most aerial attacks as approaches are horrible now with most characters compared to block spamming. Even without that, playing smart is fine but the game gets BORING. Long combo strings are FUN, hit and run is effective in Brawl but NOT exciting to watch at all. Brawl has a thing called newness and popularity and scrubs, and that's why it's going to be so successful.

Well put. I'd like to add onto that a bit. I think a lot of the arguments going around right now are along the lines of "yes, Brawl has competative potential." But to me it just seems silly to play this one, when there's another that has more in it. I mean, let's have a look at it.

In Melee, we had these:

wavedashing
l cancelling (therefore SHFFLing)
dash cancelling
waveland tricks
fastfalling that was actually sort of useful
hitstun (therefore combos)
more speed/mobility
fear of being punished
ways of punishing camping
stuff that leads into more stuff

The list just goes on. I'll cut it there, because compared to what we've gained in Brawl, you'll see what I mean.

We have gained:

tripping
reverse aerial rush (not that useful)
a bunch of other stupid technical things that don't do anything

tripping sucks. There's no doubt about this.

So basically, the pro-Brawl arguments are these:

There are combos in brawl.

There are ways to punish camping.

Brawl has fast stuff.

Brawl has less aerial lag.

Brawl has followup moves.

My responses to all of them: All true (barely in some cases), but Melee has more. Plus, when there is lag it's not like you can do anything about it. There are ways to punish camping when you're Metaknight, Marth, Game and Watch and possibly Lucario.

Oh yeah, and one more thing: about tripping. Tripping is a random event that can cost someone a match, skewing the results of a tournament which should be based on skill, not chance. This is exactly why we ban items.

So really, yes, there is competative potential in Brawl, but it's plain and clear that there's more in Melee. Brawl is a party game, and a pretty good one at that, but it's about as fit for tournaments as Mario Kart DS.

 

[Eggm]

Melee also had more mindgames, light shielding, fun videos, and the characters actually felt different from one another.

Er anyway, I was kinda hoping to see this thread on page 2 or 3 when I came back from cali but Oh well, also it was no top when i was writing this post so I didn't really help it stay alive per say.

 

[Turbo Grafx-16]

Melee also had more mindgames, light shielding, fun videos, and the characters actually felt different from one another.

I love "The characters actually felt different from one another." Really? All 5 of them?
It's pretty commonly known that the top players in the world (Except Chu) generally stick to high/top tier.

After 7 years of the same boring old crap I want something new.
Yeah, I'll get the "Gimpy played Bowser" arguement but... Gimpy isn't exactly the best in the world.
There are flaws in what I said, but there are flaws in what most of you are saying anyway, Brawl has potential to evolve, when Melee came out did we all go "Hey, let's go play this is tournaments!"?

 

[Grmo]

After 7 years of the same boring old crap I want something new.

After 7 weeks of the same boring Brawl I wanted something new too.

Er, anyway, about the rest of that post: The top 5 are basically like:

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Peach

according to the tier list. Howabout the fact that

Falcon
Ice climbers
Samus
Jigglypuff
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf

are all also commonly played in tournaments, as well as random low tiers, or the fact that Mango's Puff came 1st at Pound 3?

I don't get what's wrong with top tiers. They're fast and fun. 0-death combos out of a grab with Marth and Sheik make games exciting. Inventing combos on the spot is exciting.

 

[Ryan-K]

I love "The characters actually felt different from one another." Really? All 5 of them?
It's pretty commonly known that the top players in the world (Except Chu) generally stick to high/top tier.

Yeah they have almost as much variety as pit marth metaknight and toon link.

 

[Turbo Grafx-16]

Yeah they have almost as much variety as pit marth metaknight and toon link.

Aww, it's cute that you think Brawl's been out long enough to have an overused character list.

Dedede, Diddy Kong, Wario, R.O.B, Lucas, Snake, Mario, Ike, Lucario, Falco, Zero Suit Samus, Pokemon Trainer, I can continue.

Let's all face it, if Brawl was as bad as some of you make it out to be, then why do so many of us choose it over Melee? I've played Melee since it came out and I played 64 before that, so why do I like this (according to you) terrible game over both of those?

 

[Ryan-K]

Um I hope you aren't referring to me with that last comment because I did not say nor imply that brawl was terrible. I just get really annoyed when people act like brawl is perfectly balanced, because IT ISN'T.

Also except for snake and dedede noone else on that list is really used alot atm, lol.

As long as people play games with a bunch of characters, some will be overused. Get over it. It doesn't take x amount of time to figure out character y will be used alot more than others. Even if that changes with changes to the metagame it's still a fact of life.

Also you may like the game because of -gasp- differing opinions! This isn't the 50s, not everyone is the same. Shocking development I know.

 

[ELI-mination]

Let me inform you of the real issue here:

Sakurai is a noob.

Read that article that he talks about competitive play in. I'm not going to link you to it because I don't actually give a crap enough.

Btw... random tripping? Stfu. lol

I love brawl, I don't really like melee, but melee is better for competitive play and brawl is better for noobs.

 

[Teczer0]

There are just way too many of these threads

They are EVERYWHERE .

I think I have seen m2k and eggm say the same thing like 79 times over way too many threads.

Anyone who says brawl is more competitive than melee just like brawl ... a lot.

Melee is fun, Brawl is fun.

Who cares about everyone's preference? Brawl is going to take over because its new.

Sucks to be me since I feel like I didn't have enough time to get as good as I wanted to be in melee.

I don't care as much about competitive brawl as much but I'll probably take a stab at it.

Why? Because like nearly all of the brawl players that prefer melee, because everyone else is playing it.

 

[Turbo Grafx-16]

Um I hope you aren't referring to me with that last comment because I did not say nor imply that brawl was terrible. I just get really annoyed when people act like brawl is perfectly balanced, because IT ISN'T.

Also except for snake and dedede noone else on that list is really used alot atm, lol.

As long as people play games with a bunch of characters, some will be overused. Get over it. It doesn't take x amount of time to figure out character y will be used alot more than others. Even if that changes with changes to the metagame it's still a fact of life.

Also you may like the game because of -gasp- differing opinions! This isn't the 50s, not everyone is the same. Shocking development I know.

Diddy is fairly overused and there are some good Wario's I've seen. Only the first part regarding the characters was to you.

I never said there won't be overused characters, but you talk about it as if it's already fact that those 4 will be used as much as top/high tier.

The last part was rhetorical, to show that Brawl is not that bad a game and that (Due to differing opinions...) we don't all have to love Melee as much as all of the Melee fans.
I get really annoyed when people pretend Melee is a perfect fighter, because IT ISN't.
The last line is not addressed to you, Ryan.
Sorry if this post was a bit more angry then it should have been.

 

[Cia]

melee's not "perfect" but it did show us 7 years of great tournaments and it has all the components of the best fighters.

variety
punishing
tactics / mindgames
consistancy
combos

those of us who played AND WERE GOOD at melee definitely know what to look for and it's just.. not.. there.

not only that, but ssbb spokesperson sakurai said "this game was not meant for competative play"

a nice way of saying.. we sabotaged ur shyat!!

 

[Grmo]

Let's all face it, if Brawl was as bad as some of you make it out to be, then why do so many of us choose it over Melee?

Because it's new.

 

[Kio Iranez]

Let's all face it, if Brawl was as bad as some of you make it out to be, then why do so many of us choose it over Melee?

Because it's new.

Not only that, but it's easier for anyone to win.

 

[Turbo Grafx-16]

not only that, but ssbb spokesperson sakurai said "this game was not meant for competative play"

a nice way of saying.. we sabotaged ur shyat!!

"But really, my vision of Smash Bros. is that it's a party game, really." - Masahiro Sakurai, interview with Nintendo Power. Anyone notice that Smash Bros. includes Melee?

 

[Kio Iranez]

SSB64 wasn't as competitive as Melee turned out to be, so Sakurai never worried about toning down the gameplay for Melee.

 

[ELI-mination]

Except with Brawl, Sakurai tried specifically to kill competitive play, and with the others, he simply didn't have competitive play in mind. There's a difference between ignoring it and setting out to purposely destroy it.

Then why wasn't melee like that? Well melee was still easy to pick up, but Sakurai wasn't completely in charge of melee, he had to answer to others making the game. With brawl, Sakurai had complete control and complete license to **** up competitive play and he did just that. Tripping, anyone?

 

[Turbo Grafx-16]

Meh, I'm out now, you guys can keep finding reasons why Melee is "better".

Because, after re-reading my original post which I had forgotten... it doesn't matter, the scrubs will win, Melee can't pull in new players as long as Brawl exists, so either Brawl is the new Smash or Smash is dead, either way, Melee is gone.

 

[Ryan-K]

Melee isn't gone because people still play it, simple as that.

 

[Pakman]

SPOC will forever be melee based and they aren't ending anytime soon.

 

[Turbo Grafx-16]

And when Melee's fan base gets older...?

 

[Ryan-K]

Then people will get bored of brawl and play melee; that's pretty much how the 64 scene formed. There was hardly a serious fanbase prior to melee lol.

I thought you said you were "out now."

 

[BrimeZ]

Here's my 2 cents that will most likely be looked over in this thread. I want to start off with my orignial view of melee.

From the start, I was planning on getting competive as soon as Brawl came out. Then it got delayed, and I soon found out about the smashboards. Personally, I took competive Melee as something to do to help wait for Brawl. I thought there will be a very small few people left that would still play Melee once Brawl was out, so I wasn't going to take Melee that seriously.

Brawl is a different and new game, As people said. Alot of people who played Melee spent a bunch of time becoming technical and learning what there is to know about the game. And I think we can all agree that nobody including M2K knows everything about Melee, eventhough he may play like it. How many people know about this technique here;
Sklering!
I'm a Link main, and I haven't known about that technique until about 3 weeks before Brawl came out. And I haven't played anybody competive that knew about unless I used it against them.

I'm sure there's tons to be discovered like that in Brawl. In might take months, it might take years. There's alot to mess around with in Melee via the game physics, or control mapping etc...

There's still a big skill gap between competives and casuals in Brawl. I belive the ratio of wins between highly skilled players are closer than they used to be for a couple of reasons.
-Brawl is a new game that is very different from Melee. We all didn't know everything about Melee, and we picked up Brawl, we barely knew anything about it. Since there wasn't(isn't) alot of things known, skilled players adapted at the game at a similar rate. Obviously the skill gap would be smaller among competive players, it's not Melee 2.0
- Most of the AT and other options that players used to rely on all the time to give them there winz aren't in Brawl anymore. Therefore more technical players would have to rely more on there mindset.
-The game has only been out for a month. I'm more than sure it took more than a month to become a pro at Melee, or even really good for that matter.


We have yet to do as much research with Brawl as we did Melee. And all the people that hate Brawl aren't helping with that either. There's more characters, more stages, and more techniques than Melee if you don't count the advance techs. Like footstool jumping or swimming. I'm sure we can find AT's for those. Even footstool jumping adds a sense of comboing

Melee has been out for almost 7 years, I believe Brawl has more potential than Melee. It was technically competive before it's release in the U.S. because there was tournaments ahead of time. There might even be a different tournament ruleset for Brawl that's unlike melee.

Brawl deserves as much time and research as Melee did. And I belive with just a quarter of time and research that melee had, Brawl will be more competive.

For the first couple of months, we should just enjoy the game. I don't know anybody that'll just play Brawl just to find advance techs. I pity the idiot who spends his entire playing Brawl trying to find advance techs. Just let them come by accident.

I think it's a shame that people are trying to destroy Brawl. And for what good reason? Melee doesn't deserve to die, but it should move out of Brawls way.

 

[Turbo Grafx-16]

^ Your post makes me happy.

 

[Ryan-K]

-Brawl is a new game that is very different from Melee. We all didn't know everything about Melee, and we picked up Brawl, we barely knew anything about it. Since there wasn't(isn't) alot of things known, skilled players adapted at the game at a similar rate. Obviously the skill gap would be smaller among competive players, it's not Melee 2.0

The game itself tries to limit you; no technique could alter the physics to the point where hitstun becomes prevalent enough to want to approach. Camping is still ridiculous, and melee didnt have a scene when it started unlike brawl.
- Most of the AT and other options that players used to rely on all the time to give them there winz aren't in Brawl anymore. Therefore more technical players would have to rely more on there mindset.

Um people don;t rely on advanced techniques. They use them for more options. Player A won't suddenly lose to a scrub because he cant wavedash.
-The game has only been out for a month. I'm more than sure it took more than a month to become a pro at Melee, or even really good for that matter.

Skill carries over so this isn't as true as you think.


We have yet to do as much research with Brawl as we did Melee. And all the people that hate Brawl aren't helping with that either. There's more characters, more stages, and more techniques than Melee if you don't count the advance techs. Like footstool jumping or swimming. I'm sure we can find AT's for those. Even footstool jumping adds a sense of comboing

Footstool jumping isn't advanced, lol. Swimming is pressing the control stick to move in the water, that's like saying walking is advanced lol. Footstool jump comboes are at most FSJ -> move that stops or shifts your momentum

Melee has been out for almost 7 years, I believe Brawl has more potential than Melee. It was technically competive before it's release in the U.S. because there was tournaments ahead of time. There might even be a different tournament ruleset for Brawl that's unlike melee.

The melee tournament rules made it so there was less luck involved than what should be there.

Brawl deserves as much time and research as Melee did. And I belive with just a quarter of time and research that melee had, Brawl will be more competive.

because of....

For the first couple of months, we should just enjoy the game. I don't know anybody that'll just play Brawl just to find advance techs. I pity the idiot who spends his entire playing Brawl trying to find advance techs. Just let them come by accident.

I think it's a shame that people are trying to destroy Brawl. And for what good reason? Melee doesn't deserve to die, but it should move out of Brawls way.

Noone is trying to destroy brawl but it's just brawl wasn't meant to be competitive and sakurai purposely killed competitiveness in the game if you've even seen that interview with him. The only argument is when brawl people make inaccurate points about melee and try to relate those inaccuracies to brawl.

Also not onlywas the skler comment irrelevant but the "tech" in itself is a joke lmao it's just a ledgehop to waveland to bomb.

 

[ELI-mination]

It really becomes a problem for the people who actually like brawl when people who don't know what they're talking about step up to defend it.

 

[JFox]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163043&page=4

Check it out! Its interesting how people say they love brawl so much, and yet it seems that the real dedication is for melee. Most brawl players wouldn't travel far for a large-scale tournament, while melee love is still strong as hell. Looks like we aren't so alone guys.

Can't wait for melee this summer...