[AT] Cancelled Reverse Aerial Rush Grab (CRARG)

[響「Hibiki」]

Hey guys, Hibiki here.
I've been messing around with auto-cancelled aerials on Rosalina today and to my surprise I found a very useful application for them.

As you may know or not know, it is possible to auto-cancel any aerial in Smash 4 if you execute it right as you hit the ground. What happens is that you start up the animation for a few frames, but it gets cancelled and you suffer no lag.
With Rosalina & Luma, this system has this little quirk that Luma actually still executes the aerial, while Rosalina lands on the ground without lag.
Using this principle, I've modified the well-known Reverse Aerial Rush, added a grab to it and created what I'd like to call the CRARG - Cancelled Reverse Aerial Rush Grab.

I've posted a video about it, so if you prefer that you can watch it. It's not the most professional video editing, but it gets the point across. It also showcases a few other neat things you can do with auto-cancelled aerials, although they're not as useful as the CRARG.

What is the CRARG and why is it useful?

60 FPS .webm of the technique

CRARG is essentially a tool Rosalina has to approach a grounded opponent from the air.
While usually it is very easy to punish an approach like that by simply shielding and then grabbing her out of it, using this advanced technique traps your opponent and gives him very limited time and options to react to your approach.

How to do it:
Short Hop -> (Fast Fall) -> input a Back Aerial right before hitting the ground -> input a Grab in the opposite direction you are facing

If done correctly, the result is pretty amazing: Luma will execute a Back Aerial, and within a 15 frame (0.25 seconds) window, Rosalina will turn around and grab their opponent.
What this means is that if your opponent shields your aerial approach, they have a 15 frame window between getting hit with the aerial and getting grabbed in which they could try to counter it.
I haven't tested this thoroughly to be honest, but my partner (in the video) told me that it is next to impossible to react in that short time frame. React correctly, that is.
Your opponent would need to execute an action out of shield that comes out during that time window. I am honestly not sure how exactly shield stun works in Smash 4 (if there even is any at all), but assuming they perfectly Power Shield the aerial, they'd have to react in that time window and properly execute the appropriate action, if they even have one.
Spot dodging might do the trick in combination with Power Shield, but that might still trap them so you can punish that Spot Dodge with a tilt right after your Grab animation ends. I haven't looked into that too much, as it is hard to test without having a local partner to test with. Online lag makes the whole thing a lot more difficult.
Grabbing could work too, but it would require you to react on the first few frames of the aerial, as all grabs take at least 4 frames (except Rosalina's, who takes 3 frames) to connect. That means almost a third of your window is taken by the start-up of your grab.
I forgot to add, you can do this on shield with Forward Aerial and Neutral Aerial as well (Up Aerial and Down Aerial have a bit wonkier timing for auto-cancel, so I don't recommend them for this). The reason I prefer Back Aerial is the fact that, if you hit them (they don't block it), you still get to grab them up until 100+%. The other 2 Aerials knock them away too far once they have 10-20%, meaning you put 4% damage on them and then they just fly away and you can't follow up.
There are some moves that combo into auto-cancelled Aerials at low % (AC Forward Aerial into Up Aerial for example), but once you get past that you just launch them away pointlessly (talking about 50%+ range here).

All in all I think this is an incredibly useful technique, it's not too difficult to execute after all. With enough practice (and a proper controller, looking at you Wii U version), this should be possible to reliable pull off in actual combat.

I hope you enjoy this, and maybe this will encourage people to test more stuff like this. I'm sure there's still a few more things you can do with auto-cancelled Luma aerials, I'm excited to see what other little combos or even advanced techniques we can discover.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Hey guys, Hibiki here.
I've been messing around with auto-cancelled aerials on Rosalina today and to my surprise I found a very useful application for them.

As you may know or not know, it is possible to auto-cancel any aerial in Smash 4 if you execute it right as you hit the ground. What happens is that you start up the animation for a few frames, but it gets cancelled and you suffer no lag.
With Rosalina & Luma, this system has this little quirk that Luma actually still executes the aerial, while Rosalina lands on the ground without lag.
Using this principle, I've modified the well-known Reverse Aerial Rush, added a grab to it and created what I'd like to call the CRARG - Cancelled Reverse Aerial Rush Grab.

I've posted a video about it, so if you prefer that you can watch it. It's not the most professional video editing, but it gets the point across. It also showcases a few other neat things you can do with auto-cancelled aerials, although they're not as useful as the CRARG.

What is the CRARG and why is it useful?

60 FPS .webm of the technique

CRARG is essentially a tool Rosalina has to approach a grounded opponent from the air.
While usually it is very easy to punish an approach like that by simply shielding and then grabbing her out of it, using this advanced technique traps your opponent and gives him very limited time and options to react to your approach.

How to do it:
Short Hop -> (Fast Fall) -> input a Back Aerial right before hitting the ground -> input a Grab in the opposite direction you are facing

If done correctly, the result is pretty amazing: Luma will execute a Back Aerial, and within a 15 frame (0.25 seconds) window, Rosalina will turn around and grab their opponent.
What this means is that if your opponent shields your aerial approach, they have a 15 frame window between getting hit with the aerial and getting grabbed in which they could try to counter it.
I haven't tested this thoroughly to be honest, but my partner (in the video) told me that it is next to impossible to react in that short time frame. React correctly, that is.
Your opponent would need to execute an action out of shield that comes out during that time window. I am honestly not sure how exactly shield stun works in Smash 4 (if there even is any at all), but assuming they perfectly Power Shield the aerial, they'd have to react in that time window and properly execute the appropriate action, if they even have one.
Spot dodging might do the trick in combination with Power Shield, but that might still trap them so you can punish that Spot Dodge with a tilt right after your Grab animation ends. I haven't looked into that too much, as it is hard to test without having a local partner to test with. Online lag makes the whole thing a lot more difficult.
Grabbing could work too, but it would require you to react on the first few frames of the aerial, as all grabs take at least 4 frames (except Rosalina's, who takes 3 frames) to connect. That means almost a third of your window is taken by the start-up of your grab.

All in all I think this is an incredibly useful technique, it's not too difficult to execute after all. With enough practice (and a proper controller, looking at you Wii U version), this should be possible to reliable pull off in actual combat.

I hope you enjoy this, and maybe this will encourage people to test more stuff like this. I'm sure there's still a few more things you can do with auto-cancelled Luma aerials, I'm excited to see what other little combos or even advanced techniques we can discover.

Ok, messed around with it a bit. This is actually pretty cool and decently easy, (I'm just bad at short hopping), It's also very easy to see if you did it right. I need to do more testing on human players though.

This technique has potential. I certainly wait to see where it goes.

 

[TimeSmash]

Really interesting stuff. Yet another tool Rosalina has to dominate haha

 

[MajorMoses]

And since they're most likely to punish with a grab, they're still in danger of getting hit with Luma who is right there.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

D1 was right, too many advanded techniques with the word cancel in it.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

D1 was right, too many advanded techniques with the word cancel in it.

Ah, but you see this is Cancelled.

The name does make enough sense. You are canceling an aerial, turning, then you rush to grab. It is a little wordy though but eh.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Ah, but you see this is Cancelled.

The name does make enough sense. You are canceling an aerial, turning, then you rush to grab. It is a little wordy though but eh.

Well, you could call a wavedash an "Airdodge Cancel Slide" tho...cuz you're cancelling your airdodge into a ground slide.

 

[TimeSmash]

Randomly 423 guests looking at this page.

CRARG is a little weird to pronounce haha. Maybe something about Rosalina's back air would be more succinct?

I literally have no idea. Heel catching haha? Cause she hits them with her heels, then grabs them afterward. Something without cancel haha

 

[Nezergy]

From watching you at the Smash Bash, I knew you'd break her soon. Good luck in the lab!

 

[stingers]

oh man rosalina just wont quit ^^ rosie dittos inc...

 

[UltiMario]

Maybe calling these "RAR Grabs" would be a little... easier?

Anyways, this is a little absurd, running up to someone's shield is at least supposed to be pretty punishable in this game... Rosalina once again gives no ****s to such a thing though.

She just keeps getting stronger by the day.

 

[SmasherCat]

Here we go, time to get advanced! Finally, the game is at a point where people start finding these things.

I have so much difficulty approaching with rosalina, it's sometimes difficult to determine whether to fair or use luma shot. More mixups is great! Really nice find

Also, 400 guests? The main page doesn't get that much...

 

[Shanoa]

Wow, a ton of people (and guests) viewing this thread.

This can be a pretty useful technique, we just have to see if it is possible to get out after Luma's hitstun on the shield.

At higher percents when b-air doesn't combo into grab anymore, you can use d-air instead of b-air because it is a kill move. The timing is not too hard to get the hang of so try it out.

 

[icraq]

well you know the game is getting legit when we start coming up with acronyms for everything

i feel like this is a bad approach because you can just simply hit rosalina when she's just slowly floating towards you, waiting to autocancel a bair on landing. it's an option, for sure, but why not just space nairs? it at least has a hitbox in the air and you aren't forced to approach in a neutral aerial state. autocanceling her aerials into grabs/fairs/whatever is better as a situational tool, knowing when you can throw out an autocanceled luma aerial and knowing how to follow up on it.

a more interesting approach would be air dodging mid RAR, she can autocancel her bair as she's landing after the air dodge, at least it's somewhat defensive and aggressive simultaneously. you can throw the airdodge a little late, the latest being right before the apex of her SH, and use the IASA frames to cancel the landing lag on the air dodge.

you can also roll autocanceled bairs into grabs as well, but it requires some good timing.

basically a rosalina just floating towards you isn't threating at all to any character, you need time to warm up your nair and fair isn't very threating in a SH, so most people will just simply counter attack you before you can land your autocanceled bair

 

[Shanoa]

well you know the game is getting legit when we start coming up with acronyms for everything

i feel like this is a bad approach because you can just simply hit rosalina when she's just slowly floating towards you, waiting to autocancel a bair on landing. it's an option, for sure, but why not just space nairs? it at least has a hitbox in the air and you aren't forced to approach in a neutral aerial state. autocanceling her aerials into grabs/fairs/whatever is better as a situational tool, knowing when you can throw out an autocanceled luma aerial and knowing how to follow up on it.

a more interesting approach would be air dodging mid RAR, she can autocancel her bair as she's landing after the air dodge, at least it's somewhat defensive and aggressive simultaneously. you can throw the airdodge a little late, the latest being right before the apex of her SH, and use the IASA frames to cancel the landing lag on the air dodge.

you can also roll autocanceled bairs into grabs as well, but it requires some good timing.

basically a rosalina just floating towards you isn't threating at all to any character, you need time to warm up your nair and fair isn't very threating in a SH, so most people will just simply counter attack you before you can land your autocanceled bair

Pretty much what I was thinking. Luma's B-Air doesn't even have enough priority to stop incoming attacks. If this tactic is proven to 100% trap your opponent, it would still probably only be good for a surprise attack on a shielding foe. You can see this approach coming from a mile away (especially when you jump backwards), so it is not safe at all if your opponent knows what you are trying to do. But it's still pretty useful to know about for when the opportunity arises.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This isn't really its own advanced technique, it's just grabbing someone during the blockstun incurred with a back air...

 

[響「Hibiki」]

This isn't really its own advanced technique, it's just grabbing someone during the blockstun incurred with a back air...

I don't think you quite understand why this is possible. But show me other characters that can do it and we'll talk.

By the way, I posted this on reddit, that explains the huge amount of guests viewing.

Edit: I picked the name because you auto-cancel a reverse aerial rush into a grab.

 

[Eisen]

All I can say is, **** this character.

 

[wildwookie05]

... basically a rosalina just floating towards you isn't threating at all to any character, you need time to warm up your nair and fair isn't very threating in a SH, so most people will just simply counter attack you before you can land your autocanceled bair

This. Although CRARG does seem to add some more depth to her approaching options it still requires a high risk investment of trying to get something out of what is effectively a reverse empty jump until the last possible moment.

I like that it seems to be an AT that adds just that little bit more nuance to a character that already has a lot of tools. High tier play needs to have this **** (especially offensive ATs) to make it more appealing to watch and play. I'm excited to see the progression of Rosalina meta.

 

[Shanoa]

I don't think you quite understand why this is possible. But show me other characters that can do it and we'll talk.

By the way, I posted this on reddit, that explains the huge amount of guests viewing.

Edit: I picked the name because you auto-cancel a reverse aerial rush into a grab.

Well iirc, Mario can short hop a fireball in Brawl and grab someone they shielded the fireball. Not quite sure if it works in ssb4 but I'm sure a few more characters can pull this off.

 

[響「Hibiki」]

Well iirc, Mario can short hop a fireball in Brawl and grab someone they shielded the fireball. Not quite sure if it works in ssb4 but I'm sure a few more characters can pull this off.

This isn't Brawl though.

 

[Shanoa]

This isn't Brawl though.

Just saying that because I don't have the time to test it right now. But I'm sure you can still pull it off with a full hop. You can probably do it even after a SH because you can run faster than the fireball. So I was just putting that out there because I'm not 100% sure.

 

[響「Hibiki」]

Just saying that because I don't have the time to test it right now. But I'm sure you can still pull it off with a full hop. You can probably do it even after a SH because you can run faster than the fireball. So I was just putting that out there because I'm not 100% sure.

No you can't. At least not out of a SH.
Even if you could, Rosalina doesn't have fireballs, so this is still huge for her.

 

[Smasher89]

Not sure why you would call this advanced, this was easily the first application for it when desynching was first found, but like every other aerial its kinda unsafe and must be spaced very good if you dont want to get shieldgrabed(or in little macs case, up-bd).
If you want you can shorthop airdodge nair with the back against the opponent to get a safer version of the nair which also sets up for lumanair+roll at the same time which can be used to cover alot of space.

Didnt think aboout that nairhits trajectory though so nice for some extra damage in that combo.

 

[Shanoa]

No you can't. At least not out of a SH.
Even if you could, Rosalina doesn't have fireballs, so this is still huge for her.

Yeah I just wanted to put it out there that there are techniques similar to this and that it's not exclusive to Rosalina, but it's still pretty useful to have it as an option for her. It is not exactly safe to do from a short hop, but I'm thinking that it could see some use if you are already in the air and the opponent wants to shield grab you.

Also, I think Wario has a technique similar to this by jumping off his bike and when the bike hits the opponent's shield, you go for a grab with your bite. I think that this is a pretty cool technique from him because you can force your opponent into an air battle and it's pretty safe to approach them like this.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey, so first up, I love what you're doing here, the tech is great, I can see it being very useful. I updated 'auto cancel' in the smash dictionary because of this.
Umm, but the thing is, the name of the tech. It's a bit misleading tbh. See, RAR is more to do with the whole 'running forwards, pivoting then jumping backwards in the same direction of your original run' than it is to do with... landing with a Bair I guess. Actually I'm not sure why RAR is in this name at all. I mean you could use a RAR and then do this tech as an approach or something, but from the description you gave under "How to do it:" and from seeing the tech demonstrated, I'm just not seeing any RAR, much less one that is 'cancelled'. I can only assume based on this and the fact that you're new that you weren't sure what RAR meant or that someone told you the wrong thing. And that's fine. Check out my thread if you're still not sure.
The name still has to be changed. I don't know much about Rosalina but essentially, from what I can make out, you're taking advantage of Rosalina's unique 'auto cancel' that makes Luma still do the attack while leaving you free to do any other action, so maybe base the name around that.

Edit: oh actually, from a quick search, it seems this was already known to some degree. http://smashboards.com/threads/auto-cancel-desync.371525/
But then I guess no-one talked about using it in this exact way, so you might still be good to call it your discovery. You'd have to ask someone who visits this character board frequently.

 

[Shanoa]

Hey, so first up, I love what you're doing here, the tech is great, I can see it being very useful. I updated 'auto cancel' in the smash dictionary because of this.
Umm, but the thing is, the name of the tech. It's a bit misleading tbh. See, RAR is more to do with the whole 'running forwards, pivoting then jumping backwards in the same direction of your original run' than it is to do with... landing with a Bair I guess. Actually I'm not sure why RAR is in this name at all. I mean you could use a RAR and then do this tech as an approach or something, but from the description you gave under "How to do it:" and from seeing the tech demonstrated, I'm just not seeing any RAR, much less one that is 'cancelled'. I can only assume based on this and the fact that you're new that you weren't sure what RAR meant or that someone told you the wrong thing. And that's fine. Check out my thread if you're still not sure.
The name still has to be changed. I don't know much about Rosalina but essentially, from what I can make out, you're taking advantage of Rosalina's unique 'auto cancel' that makes Luma still do the attack while leaving you free to do any other action, so maybe base the name around that.

Idk, how about Auto Cancelled Luma Grab? ACLG? Or Luma Auto Cancelled Aerial Grab? LACAG?

The thing is that you don't have to do it from a B-Air so you don't have to put reversed in the name of the technique.

 

[響「Hibiki」]

I'm not really hung-up with naming, I just thought this specific application was making use of a RAR and modifying it to a certain degree. People should call it whatever they want, I just used this name to give it some sort of name at least.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Note my edit in the previous post. It seems it was known. They just called it 'auto cancel desync'. I guess you could throw a 'grab' on the end of it. I'll leave it up to you.

Yes but, it's not a modification of RAR. That's the point. Landing with an auto cancelled Bair while drifting backwards is not a modification of pivoting then jumping backwards in the same direction as your initial run. I could explain further, but it might just be easier if you read the definition.

 

[iiGGYxD]

I'll say that stuff like this has kinda been known by some of us rosa mains, it's just not really been shared openly like you have here hibiki. I haven't tried with bair, which i love the setup you have, but i do this all the time with nair to a similar effect. I didn't know you could cancel the aerial animation with a luma shot though....atleast thats what it looked like you did early in that video?

I'll have to look deeper into this autocancel shiz later today.

 

[響「Hibiki」]

Note my edit in the previous post. It seems it was known. They just called it 'auto cancel desync'. I guess you could throw a 'grab' on the end of it. I'll leave it up to you.

Yes but, it's not a modification of RAR. That's the point. Landing with an auto canceled Bair while drifting backwards is not a modification of pivoting then jumping backwards in the same direction as your initial run. I could explain further, but it might just be easier if you read the definition.

That's because my execution in the footage is sloppy. Intentionally you're supposed to RAR, but instead of executing a regular back aerial you auto-cancel it and then grab.

It's cool though, if you think it's a wrong use of the RAR term, call it something else. I figured I'd take a term that people know, so it's easier to imagine what this technique is supposed to do. Even though it might not be a strict Revers Aerial Rush per your/official definition.

Of course you don't have to use this technique while grounded, running towards your opponent (i.e. doing an actual RAR) but instead you can execute it while already in the air and just auto-cancel and then grab.

Technically it's just an auto-canceled aerial into a grab, it just actually does something useful because of how Luma reacts to auto-cancel aerials (not actually canceling Luma's).

I'll say that stuff like this has kinda been known by some of us rosa mains, it's just not really been shared openly like you have here hibiki. I haven't tried with bair, which i love the setup you have, but i do this all the time with nair to a similar effect. I didn't know you could cancel the aerial animation with a luma shot though....atleast thats what it looked like you did early in that video?

I'll have to look deeper into this autocancel shiz later today.

You don't actively cancel your aerial with a move.
The way auto-cancelling works (for any character that is), is you execute an aerial so close to the ground that the move starts up for a frame or something (I don't know the actual number). This results in you seemingly trying to use an aerial, when in fact you are just landing. Which means you don't get any landing lag. Which means you can use any move you want out of it.
You can for example air dodge, then auto-cancel an aerial into the ground and avoid the air dodge landing lag. I think it's easier to understand to say that auto-cancelling an aerial resets you into "normal landing" mode. Which means you can instantly perform a grounded action upon landing.
It's just that Luma still actually executes the aerial, which leads to this weird behavior. You essentially essentially chain a Luma aerial into any other grounded action you execute the moment you land.

Edit: I am fully aware that auto-cancelling aerials with Luma still executing them is nothing new at all. I myself have used it from time to time. But I decided to play around with it a bit and see if there's any useful applications that stand out from the regular flashy stuff you can do with it. And I just deemed this particular application noteworthy, as it gives you a very interesting and safe offensive approach option from the air.

 

[iiGGYxD]

You don't actively cancel your aerial with a move.
The way auto-cancelling works (for any character that is), is you execute an aerial so close to the ground that the move starts up for a frame or something (I don't know the actual number). This results in you seemingly trying to use an aerial, when in fact you are just landing. Which means you don't get any landing lag. Which means you can use any move you want out of it.
You can for example air dodge, then auto-cancel an aerial into the ground and avoid the air dodge landing lag. I think it's easier to understand to say that auto-cancelling an aerial resets you into "normal landing" mode. Which means you can instantly perform a grounded action upon landing.
It's just that Luma still actually executes the aerial, which leads to this weird behavior. You essentially essentially chain a Luma aerial into any other grounded action you execute the moment you land.

I think you misunderstood what i was saying. Though i probably saw something wrong in the video. In the video you did the autocancel, the luma was doing an attack, and to me it looked like you did the luma shot while luma's aerial was still active. I most likely got that wrong, i'll rewatch the video lol.

 

[響「Hibiki」]

I think you misunderstood what i was saying. Though i probably saw something wrong in the video. In the video you did the autocancel, the luma was doing an attack, and to me it looked like you did the luma shot while luma's aerial was still active. I most likely got that wrong, i'll rewatch the video lol.

Oh, that.
Yeah, apparently if you auto-cancel an aerial but then input a special move that requires Luma (neutral/side/down b), it instantly cancels the Luma aerial and executes that action. This is most easily seen as in the video with neutral air into neutral b.
Now that you say it, that is indeed very weird behavior.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That's because my execution in the footage is sloppy. Intentionally you're supposed to RAR, but instead of executing a regular back aerial you auto-cancel it and then grab.

It's cool though, if you think it's a wrong use of the RAR term, call it something else. I figured I'd take a term that people know, so it's easier to imagine what this technique is supposed to do. Even though it might not be a strict Revers Aerial Rush per your/official definition.

Of course you don't have to use this technique while grounded, running towards your opponent (i.e. doing an actual RAR) but instead you can execute it while already in the air and just auto-cancel and then grab.

Technically it's just an auto-canceled aerial into a grab, it just actually does something useful because of how Luma reacts to auto-cancel aerials (not actually canceling Luma's).

Right, exactly, as I said earlier, you could do a RAR and then do this tech. This tech essentially revolves around auto-cancelling a Bair by using it just before you land and then turning around and grabbing resulting in something close to a frame trap and at least something that can cover multiple options. It would only cause confusion to call this a Cancelled RAR Grab. That name makes me think of someone running, pivoting, jumping but then cancelling that jump with a grab. I just wanted to help avoid any future confusion. That's all.

 

[Shanoa]

I'll say that stuff like this has kinda been known by some of us rosa mains, it's just not really been shared openly like you have here hibiki. I haven't tried with bair, which i love the setup you have, but i do this all the time with nair to a similar effect. I didn't know you could cancel the aerial animation with a luma shot though....atleast thats what it looked like you did early in that video?

I'll have to look deeper into this autocancel shiz later today.

Yeah, I noticed this too when practising this earlier. Don't know if it is possible with smash attacks but it works with any special. N-Air to Luma Shot in the video is pretty cool.

If only there was some way to desync from Luma when using Star Bits. This technique would be pretty insane if you can grab while Luma is shooting them on a shielded opponent.

 

[EpixAura]

This looks amazing. Autocancelled Luma aerials in general already seem incredibly useful given how great empty jumps seem to be. Getting an almost guaranteed grab even if they shield it is just icing on the cake.
This seems immensely useful. How did this thread not blow up immediately?

 

[Clemente]

Awful name and the TC comes off as very pompous and slightly annoying IMO

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

How about just Bair Cancel? Doesn't this seem like it can get shut down pretty badly ?

Against Marth:

Marth options

Do anything. GG.

 

[T0MMY]

the CRARG - Cancelled Reverse Aerial Rush Grab.

What did this have to do with Rush? I didn't see Mega Man doing anything with Rush.
As the biggest Mega Man fan in the entire world of London I am very and honestly confused, er, I mean confuzed.

Sincerely
-Rush the wonder dog & Mighty Number 9

 

[Iron Kraken]

Question, why is fast falling considered part of the technique? I understand that fast falling is useful in general, but I find it very difficult to short hop ---> fast fall ---> perform a back aerial just before hitting the ground. Without the fast falling part I find this technique relatively easy to perform, though.