Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[1PokeMastr]

I am left.

 

[Taytertot]

I'm curious why Nair isnt a more frequent option. I realize that it doesnt hit below or above marth and that it can be countered easily if the opponent is on the ground but it seems to work well against air dodges and it edge guards nicely. I also happen to like the trajectory and the landing lag is almost non-existent. So what makes it a less used option because id put it up just behind Fair in usefulness though I dont see it used much in tourneys?

 

[Zano]

nair has always been a good option, idk what you're going on about lol.

 

[Taytertot]

huh i guess i feel that i dont see it that much but idk maybe im wrong and need to look at the matches again

 

[smashkng]

I'm curious why Nair isnt a more frequent option. I realize that it doesnt hit below or above marth and that it can be countered easily if the opponent is on the ground but it seems to work well against air dodges and it edge guards nicely. I also happen to like the trajectory and the landing lag is almost non-existent. So what makes it a less used option because id put it up just behind Fair in usefulness though I dont see it used much in tourneys?

Nair is not used as much as Fair but it's still very good. KOes significantly earlier than Fair too when tippered (great for KOing from punishing a ledge climb). It has slightly more horizontal range than Fair too (though only by very little) and the hitbox lasts longer than Fair. And autocancels earlier. Sometimes you can abuse the lack of a vertical hitbox for shield poking as well. But it's hard to find use of this move most of the time vs smaller characters like MK (besides from throw combos and grab releases) because you have to go so low with it and leave yourself exposed to getting hit by your feet. It finds more use vs bigger characters like DK and Dedede, who get shield poked by Nair pretty easily and who you can hit with a SH early Nair. For zoning, Fair is clearly better, but Nair finds its use vs poorly ranged chars like Wario too, when he approaches from the air and thinks you're going to Fair but then you go for a SH Nair and gets surprised by its longer duration and slightly more horizontal range range.

 

[Taytertot]

Ah that might be it because most of the matches i see of marth are vs metaknight.

I'm also curious why Donkey Kong has an even matchup with marth as stated in the marth MU thread. I suppose ive never faced a high level DK player but ive always felt like marth has a lot of great options against him since he has generally more lag on his moves and almost no options once marth has him in the air. So what does DK have that makes the MU even?

 

[Shaya]

Basically Marth is structurally a zoning character, he uses his superior range (for the most part) and disjoints to keep his risk low, and in part his reward is pretty helpful. DK has enough mobility/range of his own, he can play a low commitment game against Marth just due to the fact we have to respect his jumps before he back airs (as DK can fast fall ftilt/utilt faster than we can react to, and ditto to bair), Marth's tools aren't made to freely pressure DK (like say Falco's laser would; he doesn't have to respect DK facing backwards in the air at all). It goes both ways at different levels and I don't really know the proper answer to the MU, but if you're playing a DK regularly and winning, start telling them not to throw out back airs unless they think it's going to hit you, every time a bair whiffs it should be because you're reading/outplaying him (power shield, some certain specific full hop fairs), not because they're silly and just "HERE IT IS".

Marth's match ups against most characters is usually something like
Marth's ground game > their air and most of their ground game
Marth's air game > most of their air game (not necessarily their ground->air options [juggling]) and their ground game
When playing low commitmentish/proper (now this doesn't get you things like kills/stocks or guaranteed damage, just because he can achieve that doesn't mean he wins anything).

DK's ground game out ranges our air game and ground game. DK's air game outreaches our air game and without a very solid grasp of the match up can easily get through our ground game.
Something like nair is good in this match up at a lot of levels, when given the time to get it out, it's very "low commitment" in the sense that you can aim it at where he would swing his hands to anti-air you but still use your aerial mobility to move in if he doesn't (first hit of nair is shorter than the second hit to help that).

Fair is a move that takes a lot of skill to use (not saying more than nair) and also requires a lot of respect from your opponent when used properly. However, fair as a single option against very good players is poor, most levels of Marth players don't know how to make their opponent respect fair like they should be because it's the only option they'll go for (nor do they know how to appropriately/patiently time it). People need to respect Marth's fair because of how much horizontal + vertical range it covers in 7 frames, but that's all an enemy needs to worry about, 4 frames out of 34, other things like landing into grabs (faster than humans can react to), and really solid ground game (down tilt/walking) forces people to play in a way to avoid those which makes fair more engaging as well.

A person really good against Marth is going to appropriately spot dodge your fairs without fail until you figure out the means of abusing it.

Nair is fine against MK if you are able to make MK fear using forward roll as the second hit is pretty "good", to say the least (he doesn't have moves that beat that angle/range/disjoint bar 3rd hit ftilt and fsmash). The issue is that you have to get to the second hit (12 odd frames), the first hit if power shielded is you getting wrecked/punished, and if poorly done can otherwise just be forward rolled on reaction.

 

[Taytertot]

Thank you

but could most of DKs ground game options be beaten by shielding and then punishing him and generally playing the wait and bait games? also i feel that because of the lag of his other air options DK only has bair in the MU because everything else other then uair (though i doubt marth would be in range of it most of the time) would be beaten by nair fair and to a lesser extent bair.

 

[Shaya]

DK's stuff is faster than reaction speed and out reaches us.

If he throws out obvious **** (the part I'm trying to explain to you), the match up is very easy for Marth. The vice versa scenario is also the same for DK if Marth whiffing anything at all except DK will kill you in 5 hits and Marth kills DK in about 15-25. Marth has nothing that forces DK to care about the wait and bait games, he doesn't need to commit with anything either.

 

[Taytertot]

fair enough. i suppose my thoughts on this are based on not really knowing any good DK players. in fact im the best DK player that I know so you've got a point.

 

[mmKALLL]

DK's bair and ftilt outrange Marth's tools and that makes him a hell to play against if he uses them accordingly. Overall knowing the MU is very important for both players, although more so as Marth since DK outranges you. Marth outranges most characters and that is an important part of Marth's strenght in the zoning game, but against characters like DK and ROB it's much more difficult to capitalize on and you'll need a completely different approach entirely. As long as the opponent knows what they're doing, that is.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Thank you

but could most of DKs ground game options be beaten by shielding and then punishing him and generally playing the wait and bait games? also i feel that because of the lag of his other air options DK only has bair in the MU because everything else other then uair (though i doubt marth would be in range of it most of the time) would be beaten by nair fair and to a lesser extent bair.

Raziek did that to my first two F-Tilts, so I just walked up and grabbed him instead.

 

[CURRY]

With mashing out of grabs, I always just mash the cstick and the analog around in circles, because I assume that gives you many inputs per second.
Does that do anything...? Because, for example, if you tilt the cstick one way, you do a Smash attack. But, if you rotate it around right afterwards, your character will not respond to the cstick unless you return the cstick to neutral.
So yeah, does turning the cstick around in circles help with mashing? Or is it just a lot better to set Dpad to Attack and mash with that + analog? >.>

 

[smashkng]

With mashing out of grabs, I always just mash the cstick and the analog around in circles, because I assume that gives you many inputs per second.
Does that do anything...? Because, for example, if you tilt the cstick one way, you do a Smash attack. But, if you rotate it around right afterwards, your character will not respond to the cstick unless you return the cstick to neutral.
So yeah, does turning the cstick around in circles help with mashing? Or is it just a lot better to set Dpad to Attack and mash with that + analog? >.>

I rotate both sticks and some buttons when I mash out. You have some time to react to getting out of a grab anyway so if you are paying attention and notice that your grab release animation is coming out you can just react and stop mashing so that you don't do whatever move by accident (a lot harder online due to all the delay and stuff).

 

[-LzR-]

Keep in mind that for Cstick to read inputs it needs to be returned back to it's default position after each input. Rotating it does nothing.

 

[CURRY]

Huh. Okay then.
So it's probably pretty hard to get many inputs on the cstick if you have to return it to neutral again and again.
Unless you kinda flick it back and forth. O.o
I don't think I'm going to do the dpad thing... I would either have to move my right thumb over, which will take time to get into position and go back, or I do something weird with my left hand. Which would be weird.

Okayyyy so another thing:
With momentum cancels, does it actually help at all if you fair (while holding diagonally down) multiple times?
I see many people doing their (fastest) momentum-cancelling aerial multiple times before they fully stop (and attempt to recover back to the stage). So, does spamming fair actually help? Or should you just fair once, and stop?
Also, our DJ is a momentum cancel, right? so if we're at super high percents and think we might die, just fair, and DJ?

 

[-LzR-]

For mashing with Cstick use the dualstick mashing.

Press and hold the control stick in a direction of your choice, let's say you hold down.
With holding down, start tapping the cstick in any direction except down, the best would be up in this case. After each tap return it to neutral and repeat the process. The game reads the cstick in some interesting ways so using this method each tap of the Cstick actually counts as 3 inputs.

Check this for more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKVWkbSMTvI

In addition to this set your taunt buttons to something like jump, shield and attack. While doing the thing above rotate the dpad like it owes you money. It obviously requires some clawing to do with the above method. After you learn to do these well it's probably the most efficient way to mash and people are going to struggle to pummel you at like 130%.


For momentum cancel, it doesn't really matter what aerial you use. The reason you use an aerial is so you are able to fastfall and jump as soon as possible. Also after doing and aerial your input for holding back towards to stage will start to slow you down.

So to answer your question, use an aerial which ENDS the fastest. The startup doesn't matter as all those things except for jump can be done on the 1st frame when you start and aerial. I guess the fastest for Marth is fair, but you should check the framedata to verify. Spamming the aerial is useless since aerials don't stop any momentum, just allow you to perform those actions earlier.

So you got launched, you press fair and immediately at the same time you input your fastfall and start to hold the stick in the opposite direction you are flying. Now the jump itself doesn't cancel any momentum or anything, but the jump can be used to reposition yourself even closer to the upper corner of the blastzone so you have more time before you would be KOd. So ALWAYS when you can survive without jumping, don't jump. As Marth losing your jump offstage means your recovery will become one of the worst in the game and your troubles will be for nothing as you will be gimped with ease afterwards.

Hope it helps, I don't play Marth or anything but those questions were not Marth specific so I gave it a shot.

 

[smashkng]

Huh. Okay then.
So it's probably pretty hard to get many inputs on the cstick if you have to return it to neutral again and again.
Unless you kinda flick it back and forth. O.o
I don't think I'm going to do the dpad thing... I would either have to move my right thumb over, which will take time to get into position and go back, or I do something weird with my left hand. Which would be weird.

Okayyyy so another thing:
With momentum cancels, does it actually help at all if you fair (while holding diagonally down) multiple times?
I see many people doing their (fastest) momentum-cancelling aerial multiple times before they fully stop (and attempt to recover back to the stage). So, does spamming fair actually help? Or should you just fair once, and stop?
Also, our DJ is a momentum cancel, right? so if we're at super high percents and think we might die, just fair, and DJ?

Sometimes (not always, I don't know the reason behind this) your horizontal aerial speed halves (like if you were in a special state) when getting hit and momentum cancelling. Most of the time it happens if you like get hit during Dolphin Slash, but sometimes happens even if you have not used Up b at all or aren't in RCO lag. Things like using side b, neutral b, any aerial or air dodge stop this and put you back into your normal, horizontal air speed, so using multiple Fairs for example prevents this annoying mechanic from messing up your recovery. And yeah, double jumping helps when you're going to die if you don't double jump. Don't double jump if you're too close to the top though. It makes you live longer horizontally but you die earlier vertically. And like LzR said, 99.9% of the time only use it if you think you're going to die if you don't double jump. Otherwise you're just limiting your recovery options for free. In some situational cases it can help us get back onstage quickly because it puts us higher and closer horizontally to the stage. I wouldn't say without double jump Marth's recovery one of the worst (this isn't Melee, his up b can still be very hard to intercept unless you're like MK due to the fully invincible start-up) but still, you want to keep all the options you can get if possible (and double jumping is one of the strongest ones).

 

[Dagon97]

any critique? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU0J_VaDcnI&list=UUdl1xovLrOlLtqnvFpkpQAA&index=6

against ZSS how can i get past the side-b when i am on the ledge.

how do i beat olimar's dsmash?

what is a good set up for a dair?

how can i beat MK's spotdodge to dsmash

some tips vs a ness that spams dthrow and fair?

any moves that beat G&W's/toon link's dair?

 

[1PokeMastr]

any critique? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU0J_VaDcnI&list=UUdl1xovLrOlLtqnvFpkpQAA&index=6

Critique: Stop spamming Fsmash, Stop grabbing when they're nowhere near you or they're not unsafely hitting your shield, get better at edgeguarding, stop using dash attack (I don't care if it was meant to be a dash fsmash, just stop), stop using usmash when they're grounded, keep it for a punish/ air dodge/ roll read, do not run in with it, use more dancing blade, get better character movement, the textures hurt my eyes and I only watched 10 seconds.

Q: against ZSS how can i get past the side-b when i am on the ledge.
A: Ledge roll, or time a ledge hop Nair after the side b, or time a ledge jump fair, just comes to timing if that's all they do.

Q: how do i beat olimar's dsmash?
A: Don't airdodge into it, If you're on the ground; wait for it so you can block -> punish.

Q: what is a good set up for a dair?
A: Air dodge read and spacing it so you spike them out of their up b.

Q: how can i beat MK's spotdodge to dsmash
A: See spotdodge, wait for dsmash, punish with Up B Oos/ Dancing Blade Oos/ Grab/ Dsmash Oos/ Fsmash Oos if you're fast enough.

Q: some tips vs a ness that spams dthrow and fair?
A: Stop being grabbed, block the fair and punish with your own fair/ uair if Ness does rising fair, if it's falling and retreated just reset back to neutral.

Q: any moves that beat G&W's/toon link's dair?
A: TLink.. literally just walk to the side, the Dair is so obvious just walk to the side. GaW, just run to the side and Bair away from GaW, if you execute it properly, you'll land a tipper bair, Marth can't beat it directly, so don't try.

 

[C.J.]

I forgot about @ -LzR-
I love that guy!

 

[smashkng]

any critique? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU0J_VaDcnI&list=UUdl1xovLrOlLtqnvFpkpQAA&index=6

against ZSS how can i get past the side-b when i am on the ledge.

how do i beat olimar's dsmash?

what is a good set up for a dair?

how can i beat MK's spotdodge to dsmash

some tips vs a ness that spams dthrow and fair?

any moves that beat G&W's/toon link's dair?

Olimar's Dsmash, like just about every Pikmin move Olimar does, has item priority. Moves with item priority are really easy to clash with nearly any move Marth has except his special moves (Up b still beat them though simply cause of the invincibilty frames) which have trascendent priority and usually trade with them. Dtilt, Fsmash, Fair, whatever you want other than his special moves. The ground moves clash while aerial moves BEAT the moves. That's what makes it difficult for Olimar to anti-air Marth. He has to either like shield an aerial and punish (though that can be really difficult cause Olimar's fastest punish is like Usmash and it's 9 frames when done OoS and Marth's aerials have so little lag) or completely whiff punish it. Clashing with Olimar is usually good and puts us at an advantage cause Olimar isn't great at close range. Also helps that Olimar is the only character in the game who has no grab armor at all. There is no special way of beating Olimar's Dsmash actually. You can Dtilt or something like that to clash and then be at an advantage, Fair through it (because of Dsmash's item priority properties) or just shield it and punish with DB, Dsmash, Up b, Fair, maybe dash grab too. It's unsafe on shield after all.
Grab release Dair on characters like Lucas, Meta Knight and Squirtle are truelly reliable Dair set ups. Same with Fthrow into Dair at 0% on most characters. If you know how laggy an aerial of the opponent is, you too can in some situational cases whiff punish with a Dair spike. Or do it like PokeMastr wrote.

@ MK spot dodge dsmash. You can punish the spot dodge itself on reaction if you're reacting fast enough (with things like Dolphin Slash OoS, DB, grab or even moves like Dsmash). The reaction has to be fast though. MK's spot dodge is 25 frames and it's invincible until frame 20 so there is plenty of time to punish. Even more if the MK decides to Dsmash afterwards cause of the move's start-up. If you're unable to react to the spot dodge itself, then just shield and punish like PokeMastr described.

I think you can probably beat G&W's Dair with well spaced Marth Usmash, Utilt (not completely sure about Uair). Up b works too in some situations because of its invincibility frames. It's easier to beat it by attacking G&W from the side (just like you don't usually challenge DDD's Dair from straight below, but more like diagonally below). Counter works very effectively to beat Dair (it's impossible for him to do a rising Dair) if you can do it by reaction, though if G&W does Dair later you'd have to predict it. Be careful if you Counter by prediction cause it can be punished pretty hard if baited. Shield and punish probably works too if G&W doesn't space the Dair too well. I've found TL's Dair a lot harder to intercept by using Counter because of the bounce properties, but TL's Dair is still easier to punish in general because he can only go straight down with, without being able to adjust the fall speed, and has a lot more landing lag. And like G&W's Dair, hitting him at the side is usually more effective.

 

[-LzR-]

I forgot about @ -LzR-
I love that guy!

Love you too, no homo.

 

[CURRY]

Does MK have a longer grab release animation than others or something?
He's floaty... so that's harder to combo off of
And he doesn't have insane air friction like Wario
So like
wat
why do people grab release MK so much?
http://youtu.be/XaXDqPW17jo?t=17m22s

Like, I've never really seen people grab-release combo off of MK besides Marth... and... that... O.o
Would that landmine combo work on other characters, probably?
So yeah, what properties of MK make him combo-able off of grab release?

 

[-LzR-]

All characters except Jigglypuff have the same amount of frames they are unable to do anything from an air release except Jigglypuff. The only thing that matters is in what trajectory you are being released. MK is sent in such an angle it's easier to follow up. Warios release animation send him straight up but it still takes as long as it takes for other characters. So the shorter the distance they are released the easier it is to follow up, the frame advantage is still always the same (except Puff who has 1 frame less, but still easy to combo).

 

[ぱみゅ]

Every character has a bit of stun after being released. Some more than others.
Said characteristic can help some characters (like Bowser) or seriously hinder them (like Lucas/Ness).
Air releases are no exception, but other rules are added to the equation: release distance, weight and fall speed.

MK's not particularly floaty, but he is snapped out too far away for most characters to follow.
He can get hit by stuf like Snake's Dash Attack, Yoshi's chaingrab or Sheik's DACUS.


EDIT: wait, so Aerial Grab Release Frames are always the same? I was pretty sure some characters had slightly more than others

 

[-LzR-]

Only Jigglypuff has different air release frames and in that case it's actually 1 frame less. The release animation is all that matters and I'm not even sure if weight or fallspeed have anything to do with it until the animation finishes.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Have you ever seen a Fox being AGR'd? That's when you notice it does.

 

[smashkng]

Does MK have a longer grab release animation than others or something?
He's floaty... so that's harder to combo off of
And he doesn't have insane air friction like Wario
So like
wat
why do people grab release MK so much?
http://youtu.be/XaXDqPW17jo?t=17m22s

Like, I've never really seen people grab-release combo off of MK besides Marth... and... that... O.o
Would that landmine combo work on other characters, probably?
So yeah, what properties of MK make him combo-able off of grab release?

What LzR said. When air releasing, the releaser can't move for 30 frames (20 for Bowser) while the released for 50 frames (49 for Puff). Some characters like Wolf and Fox fall so fast that this animation gets cancelled earlier when landing and therefore those characters can move earlier than from frame 50 unless they get air released and fall offstage because of it. You can't force out an air release if the opponent's feet are touching the ground (they'll only do if they press jump or up somewhere in the mashing). Marth grabs the opponent pretty high. Other chars like MK grab too low and therefore are unable to have anything guaranteed from grab releasing other than vs Ness and Lucas or like vs Wario IF he manages to grab Wario on the edge or pivot grabs AND somehow manages to grab Wario (or other SMALL characters) out of the air (doesn't work vs air dodges if they're timed well enough to be invincible until touching the ground). I believe not every character can force an air release on those small characters by pivot grabbing someone out of the air. Most chars who grab high are slower chars who simply are too slow to follow-up from air releasing except like vs Wario. I think like ZSS, CF, Sheik, Yoshi and Marth are the only decently fast characters who grab high. And the only characters who can force air releases on taller characters like Diddy or spacies are Snake and Yoshi.

 

[Taytertot]

any critique? [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU0J_VaDcnI&list=UUdl1xovLrOlLtqnvFpkpQAA&index=6

[/URL]

Like 1pokemastr said stop using smash attacks so much. If you watch the top marths play you dont see many smash attacks for a reason, they just arent that reliable unless its a guaranteed situation. It seemed to me like you were making a lot of risky predictions that your opponent saw right through so try to get more mind games goin. Going back to what many of the top marths do; Fair is the normal approach option so learn that move inside and out because you will often find that its your best move. As stated before Dancing Blade (side B) is very useful and most importantly it comes out very quickly. I didnt notice you using grab after successfully blocking an unsafe attack which is an easy way to put your opponent in a bad situation and make them think twice about getting in your face. I also noticed that you ran in to attack often and with very obvious intent to attack, but I didnt see you fake any approaches. now this isnt always bad but it IS very predictable. I also saw that when you did run in you could have spaced your moves better so that you were in a safer position. Marth general does well when keeping his opponent at the tip of his blade since tippered attacks do more damage and knockback. Tippering will also make it harder for your opponent to get in with their own moves which allows you to control the tempo of the match on your terms. this is a minor issue but i saw you dash every time you decided to approach which can be bad since dash gives you less options and makes it easier to over-commit to certain attacks if your opponent sees it coming like that fox player did. the fox player stayed away from you using laser until you got close and then he would avoid whatever attack you used and punish you then run away and repeat, which kept the match on his terms. In order to get in on a projectile user you need to get in close and punish but of course they will be waiting for that, so they will get out of the way and attack to reset the situation. when they go for an attack to reset, you have an opportunity to punish them because that attack can be (key word "can") predictable. I also saw you use Dair too often. I'd recommend toning it down on Dair because its not that safe most of the time and the better options are generally to get out from above them and use Fair or DB or land and reset.

Please comment if any of this is confusing or if I worded this badly as I often do lol. I'd be happy to expand. I hope things go better as you continue to improve your marth because marth is a complicated and extremely fun character that I myself couls use a lot of work on.

 

[smashkng]

Like 1pokemastr said stop using smash attacks so much. If you watch the top marths play you dont see many smash attacks for a reason, they just arent that reliable unless its a guaranteed situation. It seemed to me like you were making a lot of risky predictions that your opponent saw right through so try to get more mind games goin. Going back to what many of the top marths do; Fair is the normal approach option so learn that move inside and out because you will often find that its your best move. As stated before Dancing Blade (side B) is very useful and most importantly it comes out very quickly. I didnt notice you using grab after successfully blocking an unsafe attack which is an easy way to put your opponent in a bad situation and make them think twice about getting in your face. I also noticed that you ran in to attack often and with very obvious intent to attack, but I didnt see you fake any approaches. now this isnt always bad but it IS very predictable. I also saw that when you did run in you could have spaced your moves better so that you were in a safer position. Marth general does well when keeping his opponent at the tip of his blade since tippered attacks do more damage and knockback. Tippering will also make it harder for your opponent to get in with their own moves which allows you to control the tempo of the match on your terms. this is a minor issue but i saw you dash every time you decided to approach which can be bad since dash gives you less options and makes it easier to over-commit to certain attacks if your opponent sees it coming like that fox player did. the fox player stayed away from you using laser until you got close and then he would avoid whatever attack you used and punish you then run away and repeat, which kept the match on his terms. In order to get in on a projectile user you need to get in close and punish but of course they will be waiting for that, so they will get out of the way and attack to reset the situation. when they go for an attack to reset, you have an opportunity to punish them because that attack can be (key word "can") predictable. I also saw you use Dair too often. I'd recommend toning it down on Dair because its not that safe most of the time and the better options are generally to get out from above them and use Fair or DB or land and reset.
Please comment if any of this is confusing or if I worded this badly as I often do lol. I'd be happy to expand. I hope things go better as you continue to improve your marth because marth is a complicated and extremely fun character that I myself couls use a lot of work on.

Good post for there. You're right with what you said. To complete this critique though I must say that Dagon should grab a lot more than he does. Utilt isn't the optimal option either. Utilt is still ok but it's not nearly as good as in Melee. It has more recovery frames in this game. It's pretty much only useful for killing and sometimes for hitting from below plataforms (and as a situational anti-air, though it's dangerous to whiff as it's usually laggy enough for the opponent to air dodge into the ground and punish you afterwards). Other than in start-up (taking into account the jumping start-up frames), Fair and Uair outclass it and Usmash is more rewarding to hit with. Like at lower percents hitting with Utilt just results in you hitting them once and afterwards the opponent is put back into neutral, which means you've only punished for like 9-12% damage. The other options I mentioned have much stronger follow-up potential until high percents (meaning you can punish for much bigger damage) so I recommend using those moves instead. Also Utilt isn't not safe on shield at all, while Uair and Fair are when well spaced.

And a good replacement to the smashes you did are running Usmash with dash grab, DB and FH/SH retreating Fair. Fsmash with Dtilt and DB. Dtilt is the safest ground move Marth has. It's safe on shield when spaced and has very little recovery frames, making it amazing in mid range (hitbox also reaches to Marth's head when he is crouching, even if it doesn't look like that). Not only that, but hitting with it grants nearly guaranteed follow-ups like Fair, DB and in some cases even dash grab. It has to be spaced however or else they can shield grab you. Don't jab at low %s. It's unsafe on hit until mid percents. Make use of dash to shield. Walk for mix ups too. Marth has really good walking speed and you have more options when walking. Dash attack is a really bad move most of the time (useful vs Fox though if he is spamming short hop lasers as you crouch when dash attacking). Marth's actual "dash attack" is called Dancing Blade. Lastly, I'd say try to stay away from corners. In other words, stay on the center of the stage. Options are more limited when you can't retreat any more. And when you're in the center of the stage it's much harder for the opponent to send you offstage. Try yourself keeping the opponent there as Marth is excellent at harassing cornered opponents. Replace Counter with shielding. Counter is a very dangerous commitment and usually not nearly as rewarding as shielding something and getting a grab or something like a Fair (which can lead to big damage strings). Shielding is a pretty strong option in this game (especially with someone who has as good OoS options as Marth) and Fox has very few moves which are actually safe on shield (only like grab, side b from very close range and a well spaced Bair, Bair having some flaws which makes it not spammable and Fox side b is almost only going to be used for recovering). So most of the time Fox can just go and try to grab (which is a big commitment) or throw lasers and hope it makes you stop shielding. So Fox actually should struggle vs shielding if you're doing it properly.

 

[Foosedogg]

Question: Why can I never pull off a more than 4 hit combo Dancing Blade (I think that there's a flurry of pokes after the fourth slash, correct me if I'm wrong)? I can only ever hit 2 on a GC controller, and 4 on a Wiimote/Nunchuk. I really want to figure this out so I can play Lucina properly in Smash 4, by using Brawl Marth as a template for my training.

 

[smashkng]

Question: Why can I never pull off a more than 4 hit combo Dancing Blade (I think that there's a flurry of pokes after the fourth slash, correct me if I'm wrong)? I can only ever hit 2 on a GC controller, and 4 on a Wiimote/Nunchuk. I really want to figure this out so I can play Lucina properly in Smash 4, by using Brawl Marth as a template for my training.

Simply press the buttons a bit slower. Inputs after DB2 don't read if you are too fast with the timing of the B button.

 

[Taytertot]

(I tried to post this earlier but it seems that something happened and it didnt post because I refreshed the page a few times and didn't see it. I'm sorry if a double post occurs.)

Thanks smashkng.

I'm curious are there any good visual ques or timing ques for the metaknight grab release > Dair combo? or grab release > sweetspot dash attack combo? I'm having difficulty buffering at the right time.

Also, from the ledge what are the best options for a patient metaknight in order to get back onstage?

 

[Taytertot]

(I think that there's a flurry of pokes after the fourth slash, correct me if I'm wrong)

First of all welcome to the smashboards.

the flurry of slashes is when you input Down B for the 4th hit of DB. It isn't often used, Id assume because if you miss your bound to take a hard punish and if it connects it can be SDI'd easily. From what I hear Side B for the 4th hit is the most generally useful as well as safest of the three options if you go for a 4th hit.

I'm sure you can find somewhere in the smashboards that explains the different DB options in depth, but I believe that after the first side B you can choose to press up B, side B or Down B for the 2nd through 4th hits of DB, which all have different properties and uses, though I'm not the one to ask about which to use when.

 

[CURRY]

As far as I know, there are a lot of things going on in those 6 frames between the jump input and the actual jump (Is it 6 frames for Marth? Our Marth frame data thread apparently isn't really exact... like, the landing lag for all three of our autocancelled are apparently three frames...

"Pretty much all of these are impossible to 100% accurately measure. These are educated guesses backed by data."

So yeah, I don't know how many frames it takes to jump. But anyway, jumping has really weird properties; you can use it to pivot throw from a dash, you can use it to up-B OoS, etc.
So yknow, if you get spiked while grounded, you go up. If you get spiked in the air, you go down, and if there's the stage floor beneath you, you lie on the ground (assuming that you didn't tech).
If you start up a jump while someone spikes you, will you lie on the ground? (Can you tech it?) Just curious. o.o

EDIT, extra question:
I cannot play a defensive Marth for my life (quite literally, for my stocks :I)
does a defensive playstyle just depend on punshing stuff, and throwing out safely spaced hitboxes while you're at it?
Because the closest I can get to defensive Marth is Bairing/Fairing a stupidly predictable Shuttle Loop. :/

Also, why does Usmash OoS work? I don't use it, but apparently it's really good.

 

[C.J.]

Curry, do you have skype? If so, message me your skype address.

 

[smashkng]

As far as I know, there are a lot of things going on in those 6 frames between the jump input and the actual jump (Is it 6 frames for Marth? Our Marth frame data thread apparently isn't really exact... like, the landing lag for all three of our autocancelled are apparently three frames...

"Pretty much all of these are impossible to 100% accurately measure. These are educated guesses backed by data."

So yeah, I don't know how many frames it takes to jump. But anyway, jumping has really weird properties; you can use it to pivot throw from a dash, you can use it to up-B OoS, etc.
So yknow, if you get spiked while grounded, you go up. If you get spiked in the air, you go down, and if there's the stage floor beneath you, you lie on the ground (assuming that you didn't tech).
If you start up a jump while someone spikes you, will you lie on the ground? (Can you tech it?) Just curious. o.o

EDIT, extra question:
I cannot play a defensive Marth for my life (quite literally, for my stocks :I)
does a defensive playstyle just depend on punshing stuff, and throwing out safely spaced hitboxes while you're at it?
Because the closest I can get to defensive Marth is Bairing/Fairing a stupidly predictable Shuttle Loop. :/

Also, why does Usmash OoS work? I don't use it, but apparently it's really good.

Marth's jump is 6 frames. All double jumps in the game however are frame 1 (meaning you can do whatever you want from that frame). Auto cancelling landing recovery is the same as a normal landing: 2 frames when soft landing and 4 when hard landing (hard landing you get from fast falling or reaching max fall speed in normal fall). And no, you can't tech to the ground during jump start-up frames because you are still on the ground until frame 6. And uhm no there is no jump input at all during pivot grabbing. This isn't Melee so there is no jump cancel grab. Usmash OoS is pretty good because Usmash can be cancelled into during jump start-up. So if done perfectly executed Usmash is 1+12 frames fast OoS.

Defensive Marth is actually harder to use than offensive one. Defensive Marth requires most of the time really fast reactions cause you really don't want to drop punishes at all (Mikeneko is more defensive and it works simply cause of his incredible reaction time and knowing exactly every single time which move to use for punishing). You have to pick the right option out of the many Marth has which could not always be that obvious compared to the other top tiers. Defensive isn't best in all matchups either, like aggressive works better vs Falco and other projectile camping characters (you don't want to give them any space to camp in). Even Mikeneko isn't all that defensive because pressure is a really important part of Marth and camping too much equals giving up that. Marth can use his very low lag and long range moves to force out easy to punish commitments by the opponen. The only characters I feel like I have to play a little bit more defensive vs are Meta Knight and Ice Climbers (maybe vs DK too). When you approach with things like FH retreating Fair and a well spaced dash to shield, you're literally attacking and defending at the same time. Best defense is a good offense.

 

[Zano]

I have a question.


Smash 4 is out, why is this thread still a thing?

 

[chococrow]

im having trouble with the falco match up. can anyone give me some tips on the dos and don'ts with the falco matchup