Argument Against Alt Costumes

[Sunshine]

Now it seems like a lot of people think alt costumes are going to be in Brawl. I think they would be a great addition to the game, seeing how a lot of fighting games nowadays have the feature. People say the Dr. Mario will be an alt costume of Mario, and the Pichu Bros will be an alt costume of Plusle & Minun (I have no idea where this lame idea came from). But I am still doubtful of the inclusion of this feature in the game. Here's the reason why: Kirby. No, not because it would be tricky to create an alternate costume for Kirby (though that is a more minor reason why), but because of Kirby's B move, swallow.

Say Wario had an alternate costume of his original yellow and purple outfit. Kirby sucks in Wario and swallows him. Huh? Kirby has the WarioWare helmet on. But the Wario Kirby sucked in wasn't wearing the WarioWare helmet... he was wearing his regular outfit.

Now say Dr. Mario is an alternate costume of good ol' regular Mario. Kirby sucks in Dr. Mario and swallows him. Oh jeez. Now why did Kirby turn into good ol' regular red-hatted Mario instead of Dr. Mario?

Plusle & Minun have their Pichu Bros alt on. Kirby sucks them up. But Kirby isn't Pichu Kirby, he's just Plusle & Minun Kirby.

Dry Bones Bowser alt? Nope. Kirby turns into regular fleshy Bowser Kirby.

Now if you see where I am coming from, the problem is that the development team would not make alternate Kirby forms to go along with each individual alternate costume. That would take way too much time and work. So if they decide to put in alternate costumes, they would have to deal with Kirby's B move making no sense, or possibly take the time to create alternate Kirby hats. It would just be completely off if Kirby sucks in Dr. Mario and gets a regular red Mario hat.

So I think people are relying to heavily on the idea that Dr. Mario and other clones will just be alt costumes of other characters. The only way alt costumes could work in this Kirby dilemma is if the costume was not radically different from the character. Like making very minor changes that wouldn't effect Kirby's hat (like Jigglypuff's and Pikachu's accessories). This means no Dr. Mario and no regular clothes Wario. This makes me lead to believe that color swaps will still be the only alternate costumes, despite possibly a few differences in the outfit). This means that Wario will likely just have a color swap of his WarioWare that is yellow and purple. It also means that Dr. Mario could possibly be taken out of the game completely, or just given a new, completely original moveset.

I hate to be on the negative side. I would really love to see alternate costumes, but I really don't see it happening. I just think people should consider the possibility of alt costumes not coming into play, and decide on a different fate for the Doc and other characters.

I know I'm a new member here, but I have lurked here and other smash boards for a long time and don't recall this ever being discussed anywhere (I also looked many pages back to see if there was a topic on this). But really, despite my postcount, I think I have a good point about Kirby.

So just take this into consideration, please.

 

[Circus]

When Kirby swallows one of the pokemon (aside from Mewtwo), he just puts on a Pikachu hat, Pichu hat, or sprout a Jigglypuff-inspired poof of hair, regardless of their costumes. He never gets goggles, Ash's hat, a sweatband, a party hat, a crown, a scarf, or anything. As you said. I don't see how this is different from a whole alt costume.

I see no reason not to do the same in Brawl.

EDIT: To elaborate. Yes the pokemon costume changes are minute, but they're still costume changes. Technically, Kirby should get Ash's hat, goggles, etc. when swallowing someone wearing those things, but he doesn't. I don't think it matters much that the accesories are kind of minor.

 

[XenoGuard]

They could easily do this and sorry but where the hell does dry bones alternate costume of bowser come from? Seriously that threw me for a loop...

 

[_the_sandman_]

How about a "create your own color mode"? Ever play Soul Calibur 3? Each character could just have 4-6 colors and then you can even customize their colors.

The alternate costumes would be neat, but not everyone would have it. Take Ice Climbers for example, what could they possibly have? Kirby can at least look like a Waddle Dee, and and DK can look like Chunky Kong. It would be too hard to give everyone alts, and if they did go with it then some characters might be left out.

Though I hope theres a Grey Fox color, that way we could replace that costume with Wolf! Hehe...

 

[Sunshine]

(In response to Nothing Rhymes with Circus) That's my point. Kirby takes the prominent feature of the character (not the accessory), and if an alt costume changes that prominent feature (ex: Mario's hat into Doc. Mario's headgear) Kirby's swallow move wouldn't make sense.

I'm sorry if I'm not clear, but I don't think you understand.

Kirby absorbs Mario = Mario Hat
Kirby absorbs Dr. Mario (who is an alt of Mario) = Mario Hat

It would make sense to get Dr. Mario's headgear instead of the red Mario hat.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Yes, I do think you're right that they wouldn't put the time/memory into making Kirby absorb individual costumes. However, I just don't think that poses that big of an issue- heck, even in his own games he'd often suck up an enemy and end up with a hat that looks nothing like the original foe. Kirby not taking on the alternate hats would just be an "Aw, shucks, that's a pity" moment and then people'd stop caring. One hat per power, that works just fine, as it did in the Kirby games.

Alternate costumes, in addition to being fun and awesome and the such provide many more things to unlock, and I think the unlocking process is really very fun. Further, it provides more options for an individual favorite look to their character.

However, one thing that WOULD really grate on your nerves is the announcer. If you hear "The winner is... PEACH!" when it's actually Daisy, then that'd be bad... and I'm not sure if they'd want to put in the effort of changing that for every costume. Then again... that wouldn't be too hard. Hum.

Edit: And it also opens up the possibility for joke costumes, and wouldn't that just be awesome? Seeing Slippy fighting instead of Fox... oh ho ho.

As for the "Dry bones Bowser costume, wtf" question... I assume the author meant the undead Bowser from the newest Mario game for the DS, where Bowser is murdered by Mario but comes back as a giant skeletal beast.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

When Kirby swallows one of the pokemon (aside from Mewtwo), he just puts on a Pikachu hat, Pichu hat, or sprout a Jigglypuff-inspired poof of hair, regardless of their costumes. He never gets goggles, Ash's hat, a sweatband, a party hat, a crown, a scarf, or anything. As you said. I don't see how this is different from a whole alt costume.

I see no reason not to do the same in Brawl.

EDIT: To elaborate. Yes the pokemon costume changes are minute, but they're still costume changes. Technically, Kirby should get Ash's hat, goggles, etc. when swallowing someone wearing those things, but he doesn't. I don't think it matter much that the accesories are kind of minor.

That may be true, but all of those extra, for lack of a better term, 'clothes', were just ignored as far as Kirby's Hat is concerned. Jigglypuff still had ears for all of its costumes, Pikachu still has his ears for his, as well. The fact that they have extra things onto them in addition to those ears doesn't mean that they, too, have to be copied.

Doctor Mario, on the other hand, does not have a Mario hat, making it appear rather awkward if Kirby copies him, spawning Mario's red cap.

 

[Truegamer#1]

im still hoping for an ALT Costume for Dr. Mario...

 

[Sunshine]

That may be true, but all of those extra, for lack of a better term, 'clothes', were just ignored as far as Kirby's Hat is concerned. Jigglypuff still had ears for all of its costumes, Pikachu still has his ears for his, as well. The fact that they have extra things onto them in addition to those ears doesn't mean that they, too, have to be copied.

Doctor Mario, on the other hand, does not have a Mario hat, making it appear rather awkward if Kirby copies him, spawning Mario's red cap.

Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

I mean, they could just deal with it and put in alt costumes anyway, but it would make for some awkward moments. I still have my doubts about alts.

And yes, I did mean the giant skeletal Bowser. I just threw that in there as a random example.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I think it's okay for it to work like this... Kirby's B move isn't as important as alt costumes, I think...

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

All this for Kirby? I don't see why people would complain if Kirby sucked up Dr. Mario and got Mario's hat instead. If both costumes have the same B button, I really don't think it's the end of the world. And the entire argument being centered around Kirby is kind of flimsy anyways. If you could give me a few more reasons alt costumes shouldn't be in SSBB, I'd be glad to listen, but otherwise, I support them.

 

[Circus]

Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

I mean, they could just deal with it and put in alt costumes anyway, but it would make for some awkward moments. I still have my doubts about alts.

And yes, I did mean the giant skeletal Bowser. I just threw that in there as a random example.

Yeah, I understood this from the first post.

My point was, they've technically already dealt with alt costumes in Melee, and that's how they chose to deal with them—ignore the "extras". I see no harm in adding a Doc Mario costume to Mario, and having his Kirby hat still be the familiar red cap. That's pretty much the same logic they used in Melee.

 

[LaniusShrike]

An awesome example, at that. I hadn't heard anyone suggest that before, but I would love that as a costume. Er. Even though you're against costumes... hum, oh well.
While I am pro costumes, I do think that there are issues-- but they can either be overcome or ignored, really. Even if the costumes are implemented awkwardly, such as the announcer saying the wrong name and Kirby not being picture perfect, the point of costumes really is all aesthetic, and it's hard to mess up something that really is simply a different look.

 

[Sunshine]

I'm not really against costumes. I already stated it would be great to have them. I'm just skeptical and trying to be unbiased.

From a developer's point of view, I think they will handle alts like in melee. For many characters, just have color swaps, but there can be the occasional accessory or altered clothes.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Ugh. I hate color swaps. That's the lazy person's way out. I want literally alt costumes. Nearly every character could benefit theoretically by alt costumes. How? Simple. More characters.



(Of course, we'd theoretically have countless clones but eh...)

 

[LaniusShrike]

Yeah, but they won't SEEM like clones. They'll seem like pure additions.
Considering how much time they must spend making those trophies, alternate costumes seem incredibly easy, actually.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Well, clones in so much as they'd all have the same movelist as the original.

 

[bksands77]

have you never tried sucking up a palette swapped link or young link?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Ya, Kirby merely gets the green hat like Normal Link/Y.Link. Nothing different.

I pray to Sakurai that they don't take the lazy way out and use pallete swaps. Alt costumes would be waaaaaaay better.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

To respond to the main topic at hand: As others have mentioned, I doubt it's really going to be that big a deal. Kirby absorbing Mario's powers when he's using a Dr. Mario alt-color/alt-costume isn't going to upset most people; they'll know the basics of what just happened and not sweat the details too much.

Also, to cynically respond to something The Sandman brought up:

How about a "create your own color mode"? Ever play Soul Calibur 3? Each character could just have 4-6 colors and then you can even customize their colors.

I'll give you one very good reason, doubly so given Nintendo is trying to sell this game to the mass-market rather than just hardcore Smash fans: Color-edits of Zelda and Peach. Specifically, flesh-tone color edits. If you've ever played Capcom vs. SNK 2 or any fairly recent King of Fighters game (XBox versions ideally) online, I'm sure you'll eventually come across this. The occasional handful of people will be playing as flesh-tone color edits of female characters.

I can pretty much guarantee that if Brawl let you do this, we'd be seeing 'naked' Peach and Zelda online very quickly. And Krystal too (assuming she's in), at which point I'd have to hunt down the player that ran that color edit.

 

[Ophelius]

THIS thread is original. it would take too much time for alternate costumes.

 

[Limey]

Never mind the fact that they'd have to create each of the alternate hats for Kirby, consider the fact that for 40 or so characters they'd have to create alternate costumes. That'd take up a lot more time and effort than basic colour changes. Effort that could be used on the 1-player mode, the items, stages, more characters.

Anything.

Alternate costumes would be cool, but when you consider the effort that'll be put in and therefore taken away from other aspects of the game, they're not that important.

But you never know, it may happen.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Honestly? You think it would take THAT long? How bout a compromise?

Get rid of those crappy trophies that don't do anything (not Assist Trophies, the ones from SSBM) and use that programming time to create alternate costumes? Everyone wins!

 

[BudDudandSlash]

Counter argument: Mewtwo needs a pimp hat.

 

[-Foggy-]

^^^LOL

Anyway, I think the topic creator is reversing his own logic by simply using Dr. Mario as a Mario Costume example in the first place. He keeps saying that a Dr. Mario-Mario Kirby hat would make no sence, but neither would the Dr. Mario costume in the first place. Dr. Mario throwing fireballs wouldn't make much sense either would it? hmmm? Use another example, because you keep using examples that go against your own logic.

On another note, if this Kirby hat problem WERE to show up (which I doubt it will), I think they would just do one of three things:

1. Make the Kirby hat use elements from both the original character costume and the alt costume.

2. Make the alt costumes so that they all retain said element. (For example, give every Mario costume the red Mario hat)

3. Not give a flying peice of dog crap, which is what I would do, SINCE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID IN MELEE. YOU DIDN'T SEE ANY YELLOW MARIO HATS ON KIRBY IN SSBM DID YOU?

 

[LaniusShrike]

Mewtwo DOES need a pimp hat. I understand that now.
Why does anyone ever use "it'd take too much time" as an argument? How long has Brawl been in development? And with Melee, if they had enough time to make 290+ trophies, they have enough time to make 40 some costumes for Brawl. Also, I imagine they could take models from other games and adapt them fairly easily as well.

Really, any problems against Alternate costumes are things that can be brushed aside easily.

 

[Akiak]

I think that it would be better if only the color would change in the alternate costume. Plus, Dr. mario isn't going to be a mario costume.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Why do people love palette swaps so much? They're boring, lack originality and have no purpose besides distinguishing teams. Alt costumes are waaay more fun, interesting and allows for more characters to see SSBB.

 

[Baamage]

Heh, I remember when I sprouted that idea in the nintendo forums since before the first Brawl video...

I wonder if it actually did come from me... Or if it was just thought of by someone else... Cause all of the examples were listed in my topic too.

Oh well, but yeah I'll bet that the development team can find a way around alt character costumes. Even if Kirby swallowed Doc and ended up with a normal Mario cap, he would just be capturing the "Essence of his soul" which is a red cap anyways.

 

[ClarkJables]

i don't think ti would be that confusing at all, and i doubt every single character is getting an alt costume, so it won't matter that much i dun think

 

[PurpleStuff]

All this for Kirby? I don't see why people would complain if Kirby sucked up Dr. Mario and got Mario's hat instead. If both costumes have the same B button, I really don't think it's the end of the world. And the entire argument being centered around Kirby is kind of flimsy anyways. If you could give me a few more reasons alt costumes shouldn't be in SSBB, I'd be glad to listen, but otherwise, I support them.

Yeah, what's really important is the B move. If you sucked up Doc and got Mario's hat, I don't think everyone would freak out. As long as Kirby gets the power he's supposed to get the game still works.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Yeah, what's really important is the B move. If you sucked up Doc and got Mario's hat, I don't think everyone would freak out. As long as Kirby gets the power he's supposed to get the game still works.

Well, the costume wouldn't change the B move if that's what you're talking about. It would still be a fireball, even if he's in Mario costume, unless they decided to change how the pills looked and fired, so you get straight traveling pills....odd.

 

[MirageofMadness]

In the kirby games, when kirby copied an enemy, he didn't always get a hat that resembled the enemy he swallowed. Sometimes the hat acts more like a symbol of the newly acquired powers kirby gets from the swallowed enemy. that is why the alt costumes should still be in, regardless of kirby hat "confusions"

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

True dat mi amigo. True dat.

 

[susu_atari]

I think you're all missing a major point here. I'm assuming none of you have ever done any 3D modelling, but I can tell you now just how long it would take to get a Dr. Mario hat from Dr. Mario, and copy it onto the model of kirby, and resize it so that it looked right. 10 minutes. Another 10 minutes to add in the appropriate code to make it work, and these are professionals we're talking about. If it's not actually new code that you're writing, but just an extension of the code that already exists, it's a very quick job.

Argument settled.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Meh, again, people are putting too much concern over Kirby's copy ability. I don't care if he sucks up Mario and gets Tanooki ears! As long as he's throwing fireballs for his B ability, I'm good.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I really don't like the idea of alternate costumes. It's not that they take too much time, but that they're a waste of time that could be used doing something else.
The only costumes I'd like would be for the veterans having their models from the previous games. It'd just take some copy pasta, and would be interesting to see how the graphics have evolved.

There's nothing I want more than a color custumization. I think we'd see more pure-black Links than skin-tone b00bz.

Pokémon hats and team colors FTL!!!!!!!!!

 

[THK]

I don't see the big deal.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I really don't like the idea of alternate costumes. It's not that they take too much time, but that they're a waste of time that could be used doing something else.
The only costumes I'd like would be for the veterans having their models from the previous games. It'd just take some copy pasta, and would be interesting to see how the graphics have evolved.

There's nothing I want more than a color custumization. I think we'd see more pure-black Links than skin-tone b00bz.

Pokémon hats and team colors FTL!!!!!!!!!

Again, screw the worthless trophies that are just for collecting and use that programming time to create alt. costumes. Hell, all you'd need to do is just create the skin and reprogram it into the game wouldn't you? ( I don't 3D animate or program, so I'm clueless on this whole thingy)

 

[Cubelarooso]

Again, screw the worthless trophies that are just for collecting and use that programming time to create alt. costumes. Hell, all you'd need to do is just create the skin and reprogram it into the game wouldn't you? ( I don't 3D animate or program, so I'm clueless on this whole thingy)

First off, I agree I would like it if they didn't have trophies, but how about this: Instead of wasting time on worthless trophies or worthless costumes, they make MORE, REAL, CHARACTERS.
Or, they could make a color customization...

Also, a possible use for the trophies: they could give them hit detection, then allow you to align a 2d plane on them, and fight on it. This basically allows for an infinite amount of stages.