Are true combos important?

[Baby_Sneak]

I have played 160 matches of for glory under my belt. In most of my matches, I have brutally pressured the mess out of my opponents with greninja. My combos always hit and my momentum was strong. Only thing is; my combos weren't true. I stumbled upon this in training mode where i my highest number was 6 and only because of Uair. However, I've been always able to follow up on my opponent very consistently when my attack connects. I compared this phenomenon to street fighter (the old ones; street fighter 4 is very combo-heavy). I saw that there was short combos (like 5-6 hit combos), but they were more frequent than sm4sh. I figured out that it's because of the greater space that's in smash and all of the variables that goes in it. So I thought about it and now, I don't really believe true combos have a super importance in sm4sh or even on any smash game. Thoughts?

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Wait till you go up against people in tournaments. Once you graduate from For Glory, which is full of people who usually don't know what they're doing, you'll find people getting out of your hits more often and punishing you harder with true combos of their own.

 

[Muro]

winning matters, not how you get there (don't cheat though!).

 

[Ulevo]

winning matters, not how you get there (don't cheat though!).

This is nonsense. How you get there absolutely matters. If you don't take the path to success seriously and train the proper way then you'll fail when faced with formidable opponents and actual challenge.

I encourage anyone who wants to do well in Smash to not follow this mentality.

 

[Muro]

This is nonsense. How you get there absolutely matters. If you don't take the path to success seriously, then you'll fail when faced with actual challenges.

I encourage anyone who wants to do well in Smash to not follow this mentality.

when faced with actual challenges, what matters is winning.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

when faced with actual challenges, what matters is winning.

He's not going to win in tournaments without combos or VERY good prediction skills. Usually you need both, unless you really are that good at the game to go without them.

 

[Ulevo]

when faced with actual challenges, what matters is winning.

And how do you expect to win those challenges if at that point you haven't made the effort to correctly prepare yourself?

Your approach essentially justifies any playstyle or method of winning on say For Glory under the premise that as long a you can replicate that success in say, a reputable tournament, then it doesn't matter. Unfortunately if you expect to beat reputable players then playing against opponents who don't air dodge out of combos, fail techs, and always resort to patterned play is not going to work.

 

[Muro]

He's not going to win in tournaments without combos or VERY good prediction skills. Usually you need both, unless you really are that good at the game to go without them.

Then he should do them. The objective of the game is not doing combos, is winning, doesn't matter if the combos are true combos or not, just that they land the win.

And how do you expect to win those challenges if at that point you haven't made the effort to correctly prepare yourself?

Your approach essentially justifies any playstyle or method of winning on say For Glory under the premise that as long a you can replicate that success in say, a reputable tournament, then it doesn't matter. Unfortunately if you expect to beat reputable players then playing against opponents who don't air dodge out of combos, fail techs, and always resort to patterned play is not going to work.

For training purposes what matters is not winning, is learning. For competition what matters is winning. Surprised you took so much text out of my reply though, never said any of that.

 

[Ulevo]

For training purposes what matters is not winning, is learning. For competition what matters is winning. Surprised you took so much text out of my reply though, never said any of that.

You didn't need to, what you said essentially implied it.

 

[Raijinken]

While I'd like to have a slight increase in combo-ability in Smash, I think the current state is actually favorable for balance. Speedsters can already pull off combos (and cover airdodges to make many untrue combos still unavoidable), while heavies still struggle to follow up on hits. Nothing short of absurd Brawl Minus-esque hitstun can give heavies the time they need, at their speed, to properly follow up and combo.

So, I wouldn't say they're important, or necessary, especially within the context of Smash4. But some people like having them, and that's a valid opinion to have.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

True combos matter, but so do a variety of other things. There's no one "trick" to being an amazing Smasher, you have to be good at so many things, from defensive play, techs, reads, combos, combos based off of reads, true combos and a variety of other things. There are amazing players who barely ever pull of long combos, and there are players who win with nothing but crazy combo chains. Each style is going to be different, you just have to find what fits you the best, and get the most out of it. So don't worry too much on one little thing, because just by playing, you will improve in every field of play. Also, 160 matches is barely anything in the grand scheme of things, so keep working at it.

 

[Muro]

You didn't need to, what you said essentially implied it.

Maybe you shouldn't assume so much?

 

[Ulevo]

Maybe you shouldn't assume so much?

Maybe should you articulate yourself more appropriately?

 

[PCHU]

In reference to the title, yes, true combos are important, but it's also very important to understand what has a chance to work given the circumstances and what's best to "settle for", which is where reads come in.
As Dedede, I cannot get in a second fair or a nair after I hit dthrow -> fair because fair has way too much lag and hardly any hitstun; however, if I know my opponent isn't comfortable (or necessarily able) to challenge the second aerial or evade it, I'll go for it anyway because free damage is free damage.
If I see that they know their strengths and my weaknesses, I'll back off or try to capitalize on their "counter" strategy with a setup of my own, which can range from dthrow -> fair -> regrab (post airdodge) to dthrow -> charge fsmash.

A lot of combos in Melee aren't anywhere close to true combos, but they work so effectively because they're performed in such a way that the opponent is not able to counter or escape, not necessarily because they're guaranteed.
Still, true combos are important, especially for racking up percent and setting up for KOs.
Heck, this game is pretty much built around true combos because it actively discourages thinking outside of that box.

 

[fadgames]

True combos, from what I've seen, are just the things you should know that your character are capable of. Sometimes I've seen it referred to as "bread and butter" in a broad way, which also implies that it's the baseline from where you begin to learn your character. I know a lot of players who do not normally utilize true combos unless it's very early in a match when percents allow them, or if the true combo is a setup into a KO. For the most part, I think I agree with the sentiments already expressed in that overall technical skill and MU knowledge are more important than knowing your true combos.

 

[GhostUrsa]

True combos are something that is dependent on the character. Some characters rely on combos to rack up %, like Sheik and Diddy, while others don't, like Ike or MewTwo. I pretty much don't have 'true combos' as an Ike player, but my two hits do as much as 4-6 from a combo character (plus I can KO at lower %) so it balances out.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

The combos start to string more as time goes by. When I began with the game I could only use the Up-Air as the biggest reference, but, even if they may not kill, they are getting better and better. It depends on the combination of attacks, the Bread-And-Butter and the DIY combos. The Do-It-Yourself ones are way better because they are more hypeful and unexpected.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Thanks guys for the advice so far! I think what's messing me up is the lag online and such. maybe the conditions create a more prediction and reading-oriented environment in competitive play. however, I also think its my character which is greninja. now, so far he doesn't seem to combo-oriented so far, but I'm not sure right now. And so, what you guys are saying is it's even important for those that aren't very combo-oriented like donkey kong, D3, ganon and such?

 

[Solo Popo]

You are prediction comboing your FG opponents, and FG opponents are generally easy to predict. Your first game against a decent player will make you see the importance of true combos better than any post on this forum could.

Though I don't mean to undermine the importance of prediction. It is always important, it just becomes more difficult the better your opponents become, which makes every hit count all the more. Every true combo starts with a proper prediction.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This thread offends me in so many ways.

What in the name of David Sirlin and Yoshiki Okamoto is a "true combo"?

Think about that.

IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This thread offends me in so many ways.

What in the name of David Sirlin and Yoshiki Okamoto is a "true combo"?

Think about that.

IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!

A, it is what it is

 

[SleekSheik]

This depends entirely on the level of play you're attempting to shoot for

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This depends entirely on the level of play you're attempting to shoot for

I'm attempting a pretty high-level of play, it's hard to go to tournies with school and sports

 

[SleekSheik]

I'm attempting a pretty high-level of play, it's hard to go to tournies with school and sports

I don't play sm4sh very often, but in local competitive scenes, (including the venue where I T.O.) fluidly connecting moves is always the difference between scrubs and tournament winners

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I don't play sm4sh very often, but in local competitive scenes, (including the venue where I T.O.) fluidly connecting moves is always the difference between scrubs and tournament winners

Thanks man and thanks you guys.
I think this thread is good now, I don't think it needs any further comments.

 

[LightLV]

I have played 160 matches of for glory under my belt. In most of my matches, I have brutally pressured the mess out of my opponents with greninja. My combos always hit and my momentum was strong. Only thing is; my combos weren't true. I stumbled upon this in training mode where i my highest number was 6 and only because of Uair. However, I've been always able to follow up on my opponent very consistently when my attack connects. I compared this phenomenon to street fighter (the old ones; street fighter 4 is very combo-heavy). I saw that there was short combos (like 5-6 hit combos), but they were more frequent than sm4sh. I figured out that it's because of the greater space that's in smash and all of the variables that goes in it. So I thought about it and now, I don't really believe true combos have a super importance in sm4sh or even on any smash game. Thoughts?

Yeah, it's important for maximum efficiency, but it's not as important a mechanic as it usually is. Smash 4 has some pretty easy true combo paths, but there are barely any characters with combos that link into KO moves, and even the ones that do are probably not true because of DI. Past 60%, a typical combo at best just puts you off the map, maybe sets you up for a kill opportunity, but very few will outright kill you. And being off the map is a disadvantage, but not nearly the amount of screwed as in previous iterations.

 

[Hairnet]

They are almost necessary IMO. Look at Mewtwo, for example. People keep saying "well, his dthrow combos, and so does confusion". Neither of them do, and it's what makes him horrible (amongt other things). When you play good players, true combos are essential, as well as good mind games when trying to pull of strings. However, guaranteed damage is the best damage, no quesiton.

 

[David Viran]

Yeah, it's important for maximum efficiency, but it's not as important a mechanic as it usually is. Smash 4 has some pretty easy true combo paths, but there are barely any characters with combos that link into KO moves, and even the ones that do are probably not true because of DI. Past 60%, a typical combo at best just puts you off the map, maybe sets you up for a kill opportunity, but very few will outright kill you. And being off the map is a disadvantage, but not nearly the amount of screwed as in previous iterations.

As a zss main I know alot of combos to kills. They are technically true combos but most of them require reading DI besides dsmash hitconfirms. Uair uair up b is one, nair down b, bair down b, nair rar bair, landing uair to like anything. I think learning these combos are very beneficial to my character.

 

[DavemanCozy]

True combos are guaranteed strings that your opponent can't avoid. So yes, they're important. The amount of true combos in this game, however, are scarce. Often times you will need to rely on follow ups that are not true combos to build damage or get the KO confirm.

You should be aware that not everyone in tournament will play like the people you find in For Glory: everyone has their patterns and things they like to do. So instead of you getting used to using a follow up (ie, instead of you becoming predictable), you should look at how your opponent plays first.

Sometimes, doing nothing is the best option: ex, your opponent might throw an airdodge in fear, and you doing nothing will mean you will be free to wait for the airdodge to end and follow it up to punish it later.

 

[VeggieSteel]

True combos are a way to turn an initial hit into more damage, without risk. In that respect, they are important.

When you make a read-based follow up, you are likewise increasing the damage you apply, but at the risk of being punished if you predict poorly what your opponent will do. Thus, the same sort of reward if you are successful as a true combo, but you are knowingly putting yourself in danger, whereas with true combos this is not the case.

If your opponent is very predictable (spams rolls, mashes attack, airdodges immediately), making the correct read and follow up is very easy. The for glory crowd is typically this way. High level players, however, play a much stronger mental game, and you will find yourself getting punished a lot if you are used to always performing the same follow ups.

That said, making reads and strong predictions about your opponents' actions are a larger and more important part of Smash 4 than knowing guaranteed combos, as knowing what the other player is planning will allow you to approach, punish, edge guard, and so forth.

 

[Roukiske]

It would be nice to have some true combos (or maybe DI'able combos) for most of the cast at high % to secure the kill. Most of the time I feel everyone pretty much becomes Melee Jigglypuff and is just sniping for a bair (not to mention some character's back throws have been nerfed).

IMO, playing the "who can hit their first kill move" neutral game, is just the same if you can change it to" who can hit their first quick move to combo into a kill" neutral game (assuming both characters have the ability).

 

[PUK]

It would be nice to have some true combos (or maybe DI'able combos) for most of the cast at high % to secure the kill. Most of the time I feel everyone pretty much becomes Melee Jigglypuff and is just sniping for a bair (not to mention some character's back throws have been nerfed).

IMO, playing the "who can hit their first kill move" neutral game, is just the same if you can change it to" who can hit their first quick move to combo into a kill" neutral game (assuming both characters have the ability).

There is no differences between guarented kill set up and kill move. We would see people playing the neutral to land the combo starter like we see people playing the neutral to land the kill move.
Ok my bad, we have the same thought but different wish.

 

[Roukiske]

There is no differences between guarented kill set up and kill move. We would see people playing the neutral to land the combo starter like we see people playing the neutral to land the kill move.
Ok my bad, we have the same thought but different wish.

I get what you're saying, maybe I should elaborate more. This doesn't apply to all characters, but I feel many kill moves are pretty unsafe and one problem I have with grabs is that at high % their main goal is to get your opponent off stage. Edge guarding someone is extremely hard due to how good air dodging is. I guess you could say I'd like more moves to become available to secure a kill, whether it is a 1 hit KO or a move that will combo into a the KO (extremely unsafe moves don't count).

Grabs... I have to say, I'll stay in shield all day since personally I'm not afraid of most of them especially with the nerf to some back throws, which is sad. And while we are talking about grabs, I feel a down throw should never send an opponent as far as they do right now. Supposedly that's what up throw should be for.

 

[Megamang]

I get what you're saying, maybe I should elaborate more. This doesn't apply to all characters, but I feel many kill moves are pretty unsafe and one problem I have with grabs is that at high % their main goal is to get your opponent off stage. Edge guarding someone is extremely hard due to how good air dodging is. I guess you could say I'd like more moves to become available to secure a kill, whether it is a 1 hit KO or a move that will combo into a the KO (extremely unsafe moves don't count).

Grabs... I have to say, I'll stay in shield all day since personally I'm not afraid of most of them especially with the nerf to some back throws, which is sad. And while we are talking about grabs, I feel a down throw should never send an opponent as far as they do right now. Supposedly that's what up throw should be for.

We saw with Pre-Patch Diddy that grabs into kills are really annoying for people to deal with.

Its funny you mention D-throw vs U-throw; right now D-throws mostly are for combos at low% while U-throws put the enemy in a pretty terrible position at high%, which does seem pretty opposite. Especially because often they bounce off the ground further than they are thrown directly up.

Before anyone says it, I know there are characters whose grabs function differently than what I just said.

 

[LightLV]

There is no differences between guarented kill set up and kill move. We would see people playing the neutral to land the combo starter like we see people playing the neutral to land the kill move.
Ok my bad, we have the same thought but different wish.

What? There couldn't be a bigger difference. One you can get out of, one you cant. IMO the biggest difference between SSB64/Melee and everything after it is that high % hits confirm into a neutral game reset, instead of confirming into a kill.

Confirming a small hit into a kill is a world of difference than scoring a designated kill move from neutral.

It would be nice to have some true combos (or maybe DI'able combos) for most of the cast at high % to secure the kill. Most of the time I feel everyone pretty much becomes Melee Jigglypuff and is just sniping for a bair (not to mention some character's back throws have been nerfed).

IMO, playing the "who can hit their first kill move" neutral game, is just the same if you can change it to" who can hit their first quick move to combo into a kill" neutral game (assuming both characters have the ability).

It's a bit different, because it has alot to do with what is designated as a kill move in this game. In 64/Melee, it was pretty much any attack with knockback when your opponent at a decent percent, which could be as low as 80%. Knocking a character off the stage put them in extreme danger of being killed, and being hit with practically any attack while trying to recover was enough to give you a fall KO.

So, the difference is entirely in the balance of power in the match. Being able to SECURE a kill from a seemingly weak attack (dash attack, uair, dtilt, ect) puts alot more weight into having high damage %. Having to fish for a "kill move" on someone keeps the game in neutral long enough to allow comebacks, at least until someone gets poked enough to get killed by a throw at like 180% or something. It encourages alot more reward for defense than offense.

 

[Megamang]

What? There couldn't be a bigger difference. One you can get out of, one you cant. IMO the biggest difference between SSB64/Melee and everything after it is that high % hits confirm into a neutral game reset, instead of confirming into a kill.

Confirming a small hit into a kill is a world of difference than scoring a designated kill move from neutral.




It's a bit different, because it has alot to do with what is designated as a kill move in this game. In 64/Melee, it was pretty much any attack with knockback when your opponent at a decent percent, which could be as low as 80%. Knocking a character off the stage put them in extreme danger of being killed, and being hit with practically any attack while trying to recover was enough to give you a fall KO.

So, the difference is entirely in the balance of power in the match. Being able to SECURE a kill from a seemingly weak attack (dash attack, uair, dtilt, ect) puts alot more weight into having high damage %. Having to fish for a "kill move" on someone keeps the game in neutral long enough to allow comebacks, at least until someone gets poked enough to get killed by a throw at like 180% or something. It encourages alot more reward for defense than offense.

I think his point was that if a move can be confirmed into a kill move, it might as well be the kill move except its way easier to hit. Like, in a high level match, you are basically "dead" when someone hits you with a jab that confirms into a u-smash. He didn't have to fish for the kill move at all.

 

[Roukiske]

We saw with Pre-Patch Diddy that grabs into kills are really annoying for people to deal with.

Quite contrary to what many people might say, I actually liked that Diddy could combo off a throw. I wanted more characters to be able to do that (like when ZSS used to be able to d-throw up-b kill). Instead, they wanted no characters to be able to do that, hence why I am not afraid of getting grabbed in this game. I hardly play Diddy, but when I do get him in random select I see that he moves in a way I would like most characters to move around in terms of speed and landing lag. Nearly all his moves compliment his other moves and are quite useful. I believe Diddy was built properly, but the problem is that he along with a few others were the only ones built properly, so he was seen as OP.

 

[PUK]

Quite contrary to what many people might say, I actually liked that Diddy could combo off a throw. I wanted more characters to be able to do that (like when ZSS used to be able to d-throw up-b kill). Instead, they wanted no characters to be able to do that, hence why I am not afraid of getting grabbed in this game. I hardly play Diddy, but when I do get him in random select I see that he moves in a way I would like most characters to move around in terms of speed and landing lag. Nearly all his moves compliment his other moves and are quite useful. I believe Diddy was built properly, but the problem is that he along with a few others were the only ones built properly, so he was seen as OP.

If you make every character a kill setuper then every character which don't cross a certain speed limit to garbage.
If zelda has to rely on her grab/whatever low commitment move to set up a kill she would be garbage. Because even her low commitment move would be outspeed by the faster characters.

And to finish if all characters play like sheik, the game would boring.

PS: Currently most than half the cast has a non guarented kill set up from a grab. Obviously it makes reads important. But if they were guarented, it would make the characters with a better chance to set up (the light fast) way better than the others.

 

[Roukiske]

If you make every character a kill setuper then every character which don't cross a certain speed limit to garbage.
If zelda has to rely on her grab/whatever low commitment move to set up a kill she would be garbage. Because even her low commitment move would be outspeed by the faster characters.

And to finish if all characters play like sheik, the game would boring.

PS: Currently most than half the cast has a non guarented kill set up from a grab. Obviously it makes reads important. But if they were guarented, it would make the characters with a better chance to set up (the light fast) way better than the others.

Very correct, don't get me wrong, the way the game is now isn't too bad. Implementing it in a way that suited my personal preferences would be way too big of a change for characters and the game itself would have to be changed heavily in terms of balance to the point I don't think it can be done. I just wanted to express how I sort of liked how Diddy worked, but he definitely was an issue since only he could do those things.

 

[Megamang]

Very correct, don't get me wrong, the way the game is now isn't too bad. Implementing it in a way that suited my personal preferences would be way too big of a change for characters and the game itself would have to be changed heavily in terms of balance to the point I don't think it can be done. I just wanted to express how I sort of liked how Diddy worked, but he definitely was an issue since only he could do those things.

That is the smash conundrum for me and my friends. The really good characters are quite fun to play, just not as fun to play against as a lesser char.