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Are the melee characters going to receive further changes?
- Thread starter foxygrandpa
- Start date
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
No character has any individual move that "weighs them down". If anything, a characters viability is determined by what their good moves and options cover, not their bad ones.
Jarbinks9/11
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 71
I dont want falcon to have a better recovery, i like having my melee champs retain their glass cannon-ish status. Falcon is already really tanky and hard to kill without gimping him so hes fine with having a bad one, and the buffs make him a little less helpless already.
As for how he performs in pm, he actually enjoys the change in environment, the prevalence of sheik fox and falco are the only things that kept him down. With less fastfallers and less people using spacies and sheik alomg with them being nerfed and falcon buffed makes him stronger overall. He only sucks against fast fallers since unlike every other character in the game he doesnt have an aerial/throw/tilt that can get them high enough to combo, with all of his options only opening them up for techchases, so while he can slay floaties he has to work harder against fast fallers. Smaller characters like squirtle can be hard to pin down and combo however, regardless of weight. You pretty much need a grab or a stomp to open them up. If you want to properly buff falcon then just give small speed and knockback adjustments to his groundmoves like dtilt which hits low enough to hit tiny characters. Other than that hes fine, he just needs a bit of adjusting from his melee style to incorporate his new tools.
As for how he performs in pm, he actually enjoys the change in environment, the prevalence of sheik fox and falco are the only things that kept him down. With less fastfallers and less people using spacies and sheik alomg with them being nerfed and falcon buffed makes him stronger overall. He only sucks against fast fallers since unlike every other character in the game he doesnt have an aerial/throw/tilt that can get them high enough to combo, with all of his options only opening them up for techchases, so while he can slay floaties he has to work harder against fast fallers. Smaller characters like squirtle can be hard to pin down and combo however, regardless of weight. You pretty much need a grab or a stomp to open them up. If you want to properly buff falcon then just give small speed and knockback adjustments to his groundmoves like dtilt which hits low enough to hit tiny characters. Other than that hes fine, he just needs a bit of adjusting from his melee style to incorporate his new tools.
I wouldn't really call Falcon a glass cannon. Typically, glass cannons are both extremely powerful and mobile, but can't take a hit to save their life. Falcon has to work harder to get in, typically giving up some life in the process, which is closer to the Zangief model than the Akuma model.
Jarbinks9/11
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 71
Its hard to classify his playstyle. Hes a tank, but has bad defensive options, and gets combod and techchased a lot more easily than anyone. His offensive options are lacking and he has to bait and run away a lot, but has the strongest punish game out of any character, or at least on par with heavy hitters like ganon. He also gets killed if he gets thrown offstage too. His susceptibility to getting gimped abd combod with few ways of escaping even when teching correctly since his techrolls are garbage are mainly why i said he was a glass cannon, Hes still a reallyinteresting character imo.
Falcon should probably only get minor buffs to patch up his *very* negative downsides. The only change on offense that I would think of, would be better options for hitting shorter + crouching characters. They are a very dumb thorn in his side and he can't rely on stuff like down angled Ftilt or Dtilt as his fastest (sometimes the only reasonable) options for hitting these people. So on offense, changes like a Nair that can hit a bit lower or a grab that scoops up lower things. Jiggs or Kirby or G^W holding down to avoid his grabs is kind of silly, and affects him arguably the most out of the entire cast for grabs they can dodge. On defense, stuff like buffing tech rolls or buffing recovery lag to make him not so helpless. He's already combo food, tech chase food, and edgeguard food. You slap those traits on a character that isn't as broken as Fox or Falco, and it starts to be a real big problem.
I think most of the Melee upper characters will stay the same now. I can't imagine Sheik buffs or Marth buffs. People like Ganon and Falcon are open (and have been open) to changes already. The upper characters in Melee are probably seen as a good point to try and get characters to (not Fox + Falco, but Marthish area of viability). Buffing or nerfing them would kind of throw that off. If they got bigger changes, it would certainly be after we iron out what the hell each of the Brawl characters should look like + how far we need to actually buff lower tiered Melee characters. Until then, I don't expect them to toy with magical 4.5bc Marth buffs lol
I think most of the Melee upper characters will stay the same now. I can't imagine Sheik buffs or Marth buffs. People like Ganon and Falcon are open (and have been open) to changes already. The upper characters in Melee are probably seen as a good point to try and get characters to (not Fox + Falco, but Marthish area of viability). Buffing or nerfing them would kind of throw that off. If they got bigger changes, it would certainly be after we iron out what the hell each of the Brawl characters should look like + how far we need to actually buff lower tiered Melee characters. Until then, I don't expect them to toy with magical 4.5bc Marth buffs lol
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PastLink
Smash Journeyman
that's a helluva fast tank bro.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Why would you want to buff Marth? O.O
The very notion terrifies me. You can't do it without making him OP.
The very notion terrifies me. You can't do it without making him OP.
I wouldn't buff Marth any further. The point was that if they were to attempt releasing a patch with big marth or x higher melee character changes, it would be way down the road. If they were trying to shape everyone to be roughly as viable as a certain threshold or character, you wouldn't start tinkering with that initial character much.
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Burnsy
Smash Lord
He's right. Squirtle is like a Sheik and Luigi hybrid.
I'll admit that "a really annoying Sheik" is pretty redundant as a description, though
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Just to answer the thread title. Im sure every character will recieve changes, just maybe not the changes we would want to see, but there WILL be changes. As for the melee high/top tiers. Honestly, I think they are fine, people just need to learn the matchups. The only things I would want to change to them would be very minor buffs/nerfs, nothing like giving Puff a chain-grab or anything. The only major changes they should do is with the Melee low tiers that people still consider low, ie Ness. I dont know what they could do, but im sure they'll do something good. Since its been this long, assuming they had a little break, the PMBR said they have been working on it for a while and will release it when they are ready. Im excited for the changes theyll make.
PcTriumph
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2013
- Messages
- 180
In Texas, Ness is broken tier. There's not a consensus on where Ness stands, it seems.
PastLink
Smash Journeyman
what kind of ness tech has been discovered in texas that makes him broken tier? do share please.
Saito
Pranked!
He's an All-American
PcTriumph
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2013
- Messages
- 180
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PastLink
Smash Journeyman
hmm, i don't see anything broken. i do see very skillful play but nothing broken. at best i've learned ness has a chaingrab on fast fallers. (this grab on floaties is a combo set up). i also wonder from seeing this video if ness really does need anything else, and maybe people just haven't mastered him yet to his full potential. that rising Dair that crossed over caught even me off gaurd and i was just the spectator. i suppose time will tell, as everyone else has been pushing i guess we've gotta let the meta develop. in ness' case i feel i agree with that case. seems like there's substance there but few are wielding it
PcTriumph
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2013
- Messages
- 180
In my opinion, there's a mindset for Ness that allows him to be played at a very high level with his current skillset, but I do not know what that mindset is.
PastLink
Smash Journeyman
MagnesD3
Smash Master
A couple possible things that id like the pmbr to try out for fox and falco specifically are:
Fox
Give him falcos Bup, (it bothers me that the bird cant fly higher than the fox) also fox is the better character
Tone down his Up smash to be like PAL version.
Falco
Give him brawl fair.
Give him brawl f smash.
Give him fox's Bup.
Make Dair like PAL version.
Also as a side Id like Mr. Game and Watch to have his dair from brawl back and his turtle from brawl back.
Fox
Give him falcos Bup, (it bothers me that the bird cant fly higher than the fox) also fox is the better character
Tone down his Up smash to be like PAL version.
Falco
Give him brawl fair.
Give him brawl f smash.
Give him fox's Bup.
Make Dair like PAL version.
Also as a side Id like Mr. Game and Watch to have his dair from brawl back and his turtle from brawl back.
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Alondite
Smash Journeyman
It puzzles me how the PMBR takes such great care in making sure that the Brawl newcomers are well-rounded with visually intuitive hitboxes and knockback, and unique gameplay potential, but throw all of that design effort out the window when it comes to high-tier Melee vets. Fox's disproportionately powerful up smash and up air? Jiggs' ridiculously disjointed bair? Falco's lingering spike? None of those things make any sense. I just do not get this absurd, unyielding, and obsessive need for the game to be just like Melee.
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
Falco is hardly worse than fox. In all seriousness, theyre even. Falco has a better neutral and onstage game than fox, which is why the recoveries balance out. Making his upsmash weaker would hardly make a difference, its not like fox players have any problem giving you 10-30 extra damage.
Falco with fox's up b? that is the epitome of a broken character.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
You have to realize that P:M really did and to an extent still does depend on competitive Melee players to attract most of its playerbase. One of the things that let it grow and become what it is now wasn't the balanced cast it promised but the ability it gave Melee players to migrate and use their main with scarcely any differences or hassles.
Do I agree that it is absolutely necessary for Melee players to come to what is essentially a brand new game and pick up their character right where they left off, that they should have the privilege of porting over their developed metagames into a brand-spanking new environment free of charge? Not really ... but it's what let P:M piggyback tourneys as a side event, it's what led the community to grow and reach where it has today. Leaving in some of the derpy design choices made by Japanese devs in a 12+ year old game was a great way to enhance P:M's popularity and acceptance.
You may not see the need now for this game to be 'exactly like Melee' (which it really isn't) but it's a very real one.
Alondite
Smash Journeyman
I don't think there are 400,000 competitive Melee players who downloaded PM, though. The game has obviously reached enough people where it can start to create its own identify rather than piggyback off Melee. I understand that it's not a carbon copy of Melee, but it is incredibly similar in a number of ways.
One thing I left out is that porting over Melee characters damages the metagame and balance because you have characters who've been thoroughly explored and mastered going up against characters that people are still figuring out. In order to be viable, many of the new/changed characters have to be buffed excessively, which is going to backfire when people start getting good with those characters.
One thing I left out is that porting over Melee characters damages the metagame and balance because you have characters who've been thoroughly explored and mastered going up against characters that people are still figuring out. In order to be viable, many of the new/changed characters have to be buffed excessively, which is going to backfire when people start getting good with those characters.
MagnesD3
Smash Master
Many think falco is alot worse in this game due to matchups, im inclined to agree btw he is still being nerfed in my changes.
foxygrandpa
Smash Journeyman
By the same logic, fox is worse to matchups too. They have the same weaknesses.
Falco is fine the way he is. However, the end of their up b's has less control than melee's. If that was put back, that would suffice.
Sheik is already pretty decent, but I'd like to see Side B Tether reinstated. It's not a huge buff or anything, but it does make that move feel a bit less like a waste of a button.
I also remain convinced that Puff and GW need a lot of help. Ganon and Falcon need a bit of help.
I also remain convinced that Puff and GW need a lot of help. Ganon and Falcon need a bit of help.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Just want to mention, by itself jiggs bair isn't inherently that crazy disjointed
What makes it end up that way is her crazy aerial mobility and aerial speed, so at any time during the start-up of bair, she can shift to full-speed backwards, making interpolation extend the hitbox in length by the equivalent of the distance she travels each frame (which is pretty big).
Making the hitbox smaller or further in her foot wouldn't entirely fix that. It'd be a small tweak to the move at best unless you completely removed the foot hitbox, which kinda defeats the point of a kick move; or made it negatively disjointed, which worse make it terrible for any kind of approaching or stage gain, which is an ability she doesn't really have much of in PM, especially considering her new competition.
The latter you could do and still accomplish making her less silly without making her a lot worse if you gave her some decent ground pokes. Ftilt could be like a grounded bair (less disjointed because of no aerial movement here) and a mix-up like Link/snake's fsmash in the form of sing.
What makes it end up that way is her crazy aerial mobility and aerial speed, so at any time during the start-up of bair, she can shift to full-speed backwards, making interpolation extend the hitbox in length by the equivalent of the distance she travels each frame (which is pretty big).
Making the hitbox smaller or further in her foot wouldn't entirely fix that. It'd be a small tweak to the move at best unless you completely removed the foot hitbox, which kinda defeats the point of a kick move; or made it negatively disjointed, which worse make it terrible for any kind of approaching or stage gain, which is an ability she doesn't really have much of in PM, especially considering her new competition.
The latter you could do and still accomplish making her less silly without making her a lot worse if you gave her some decent ground pokes. Ftilt could be like a grounded bair (less disjointed because of no aerial movement here) and a mix-up like Link/snake's fsmash in the form of sing.
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