Apex 2015 proved Smash 4 has serious issues and even took steps back from Brawl.

[Zork]

Anyone that watched all of top 8 should be able to see this now , something I've suspected ever since Smash 4 came out. You can say I'm biased but I like all Smash games, I'm just looking at the facts:

That was the least hype top 8 in the history of any Smash game at Apex. It can easily be proven that every Apex top 8 for Brawl (when it was streamed) garnered more hype from the crowd. They tended to be really into it, in fact in 2012/ 2013, Brawl got more viewers than Melee.

In Smash 4's case they were either totally silent no matter what was happening or cheering for the tournament to end sooner (or trolling Diddies). In fact I'm pretty sure during the finals I heard chants of "next game" and "Melee" as well as during the award ceremony. Did I mention they even booed the players quite a few times? Seriously it's like no one actually cared about the matches, not the chat, nor the crowd even the commentary was pretty monotone all the way through.

I mean you know it was bad when some of the biggest Smash 4 supporters were down playing it. Think I'm exaggerating? Pierce7d on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/Pierce7d/status/562066385422286848

Similarly D1 said during the reward ceremony something along the lines of "Yeah go check out Smashboards on how to get better at Smash 4. Then you'll know how to pick up Diddy and do down throw up air or up throw up air". D1 is usually one of the most PR friendly guys in the community and here he was basically saying Zero's win didn't mean much. To 80K viewers no less.


So let's discuss why all this was the case.

Smash 4 takes too long. Way too long. You guys thought Brawl was slow? Smash 4 took about 3 hours and 40 minutes to finish top 8 with TWO stocks. I can show you countless Brawl top 8s that took the same amount or less time with 3 stocks. Some of you might argue you saw some fast sets and only unlucky matchups made the matches drag on. But take a closer look and you'll notice all the "fast" matches were dominations on one side. There was no down to the wire fast set in that top 8.

Some reasons for Smash 4 being too slow are no ledge hogging. You hit someone offstage 2-4 times in any other game and you are rewarded with a gimp or at least guaranteed damage, here it doesn't matter they still make it back and ledge trumping is not reliable. Boundaries being too big and kill options being too limited doesn't help either. There's no tech chasing or any real sense of momentum and burst potential either. Lastly rolls and shields are way too good making the ability to create real pressure in a lot of situations to be questionable. These were not problems Brawl had (admittedly shields were great in Brawl too but at least they took pushback and shield poking was viable). Then add the fact that Smash 4 removed AT's from Brawl, less aerials autocancel, the aforementioned lack of significant reward from edge guarding and Smash 4 matches basically look like simplified Brawl matches with maybe slightly longer juggles here and there at low percents.

Now how about Smash 4 Diddy vs Brawl MK? Diddy is at least better than MK right? Alas no, people that aren't biased and played both competitively will tell you MK was a much more dynamic and interesting character to play and watch. People actually enjoyed watching MK mirrors believe it or not, go watch Nairo vs Otori at Apex 2012/2013, see how much more everyone cared. Whereas Diddy mirrors neither the crowd nor the players can take seriously. It doesn't help that every Diddy match in Smash 4 looks the same even when he's playing against different characters.

People just don't want to admit that Smash 4 took a lot of steps back from Brawl and instead blindly praise it for being so much better because it's cool to hate on Brawl. But Brawl is probably a more exciting competitive game than Smash 4 currently. That's not to say it didn't improve on some things from Brawl but people should be demanding so much more. That was honestly the most underwhelming top 8 I have ever seen for a Smash game.

 

[Luigisama]

I don't know about mk mirrors being interesting to a lot of people. Apex 2012 was hype because of japan and Apex 2013 was hype because of Salem, but I think people also trolled because the people that were in gfs were people the audience didn't want in gfs.

 

[Thinkaman]

I loved every minute of it, but please: Continue to poison the community.

Smash 4 top 8 took less time than Melee top 8, btw.

 

[Zork]

I loved every minute of it, but please: Continue to poison the community.

Smash 4 top 8 took less time than Melee top 8, btw.

Boasting about a 2 stock game being slightly faster on average where only about half the sets were close than a 4 stock game where nearly every set went to game 5 (and went to a second set in GFs) does not really help your case. Also Melee didn't really take longer either, don't forget it took a while to set up. Overall it probably took nearly the same amount of time.

I'm not poisoning the community, I'm just saying Smash 4 is extremely stale (again removes depth that Brawl had while adding little that's new) and could use a lot of improvements. I've noticed people that tend to think these are outlandish claims never played Brawl competitively and more than likely just got into Smash recently because of the documentary. I suspect many of these people will have the same opinion as me later down the road.

 

[NotLiquid]

You're misconstruing the entire issue surrounding Smash 4's Apex showing and it's doing nothing more than poisoning the community further, compounding the real blemish yesterday that was the embarrassing display of the Melee audience.

Smash 4 didn't go on too long because of step downs from Brawl, nor was audience disinterest on account of uninteresting play. It went on too long because Apex was a complete fallout with an abysmally cramped time schedule due to the tragic circumstances. Streams having to be relocated, people being disqualified under strict circumstances and even then for some reason the TO's committed to making the quarters a Bo5 which is an absolute mindboggling decision.

You know why people didn't take the Diddy Ditto seriously? Because M2K and Zero are best friends, roomies, dominated the doubles and knew that this was the most light-hearted, consequence-free fight of the entire tourney. That was a legitimately fun game. Taunts a plenty, crazy moves and an overall riot. The crowd was buzzing in such a fun way that it reminded me how fun Smash could be and that it wasn't all about winning.

But it had to come a head and screw itself up when the audience had to steal Zero's moment for no other discernible reason other than it being late and Melee being "the better game" or whatever, which was absolutely inexcusable and proved that a disappointingly large portion of the Smash community still lives in the stone ages.

These last two days were some of the best nights of Smash 4's competitive scene in a long time. And the audience wouldn't let it end on anything but a whimper, even though Melee ended up going longer. I'm honestly dreading EVO if this is the standard we're setting.

 

[NewGuy79]

Boasting about a 2 stock game being slightly faster on average where only about half the sets were close than a 4 stock game where nearly every set went to game 5 (and went to a second set in GFs) does not really help your case. Also Melee didn't really take longer either, don't forget it took a while to set up. Overall it probably took nearly the same amount of time.

I'm not poisoning the community, I'm just saying Smash 4 is extremely stale (again removes depth that Brawl had while adding little that's new) and could use a lot of improvements. I've noticed people that tend to think these are outlandish claims never played Brawl competitively and more than likely just got into Smash recently because of the documentary. I suspect many of these people will have the same opinion as me later down the road.

realy now... when did brawl all of a sudden become the poster child for smash depth...

go ahead and say you were disapointed all you like with smash4 play at apex but please theres no need for to go to such legths to justify this opinion,

 

[shapular]

The first part is just Melee players being Melee players. They love to hate. That doesn't mean Smash 4 is bad in any way,

For the rest of your post, I haven't personally had these problems in my matches, so I don't know where the disconnect is.

 

[Thinkaman]

You can check the twitch recording.

Smash 4 took 3:18:37 from first game start to final KO
Melee took 3:47:43 from first game start to final KO

Stop poisoning my community.

 

[Morbi]

I am not going to lie, I was also disappointed by Top 8 in Smash 4. However, honestly, I feel as though it had less to do with the pace of the game and more to do with poor planning. Three out of five sets in quarter finals in addition to the notion that everyone and their grandmother's cat wanted to watch Melee. There are plenty of people who enjoy watching the game, myself included. I just cannot help but believe that Smash 4 was a victim of circumstance. And bad commentary.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'll admit that I haven't watched the footage yet, but if Melee top 8 actually took more time than Smash 4 top 8, that would make this topic pretty ridiculously invalid. Does anyone have numbers on hand for that?

Now as per hype, I've observed some serious apathy toward smash 4 from people whose main game is either Melee or Project M which I would guess was a big factor in the APEX crowd. Some of the attitudes are... concerning and not very constructive toward building the best and biggest community we can. As someone who plays 4 as his main game, I can say that I'm completely in love with it and that everyone I've talked to who plays 4 as their main game (which is a ton of people) is ridiculously positive about the game. Of course, most of the people I talk to also want customs legal and a stage list that is pretty much "not APEX rules" so take that as you will; I do think APEX's 4 ruleset damaged it to some extent though it shouldn't have been fatal. I worry a lot about the cultural clash here; I think the community can do best as a unified community, but any kind of a repeat of Melee vs Brawl would be unacceptable and the 4 people are going to ditch the other side in a hurry if it seems to be going that way. Stuff like this isn't encouraging, and it really isn't the 4 people who are making it hard.

To address some of your specific stuff, you have claimed that all Diddy Kong players play the same which makes it hard for me to understand, as someone who didn't watch APEX's stream, how it was that Zero won the tournament with Diddy Kong while the only other Diddy Kong in top 8 was Mew2King in one of the 5th places. I have a hypothesis that many people entered the event using Diddy Kong; why did so few of them end up in that top 8 if they're all playing the same anyway? That would seem to make no sense. Likewise you talked about how shield poking was viable in Brawl in a way to imply it's not in 4 when it's better than ever. More aerial autocancel in 4 than in Brawl if we're talking about practical matters. There are all kinds of tech chases and chases in general. Diddy Kong is also seriously not Brawl Meta Knight; even under APEX rules which are pretty much designed to make 4's balance worse than it really is, Diddy Kong is nowhere near as good as Brawl MK. I dunno what they were doing at APEX but nothing you are saying sounds like how smash 4 plays at all to me, as someone who actually does play it.

 

[Tristan_win]

@ Zork

So your complaining that smash4 top 8 was 'bad' without any attempt to explain how to make it better.

Here's my question, why did you post this? What is the desire outcome for posting such a toxic post?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think the biggest part is that a lot of Smash players don't actually know what offense or defense is.

Apparently, it always has to be going ham or going camp. They never think about the in between which boggles my mind because all Smash games rely on the in between. All fighting games do.

That and well, the Smash community is stubborn, for better and for worse.

 

[RanserSSF4]

You're misconstruing the entire issue surrounding Smash 4's Apex showing and it's doing nothing more than poisoning the community further, compounding the real blemish yesterday that was the embarrassing display of the Melee audience.

Smash 4 didn't go on too long because of step downs from Brawl, nor was audience disinterest on account of uninteresting play. It went on too long because Apex was a complete fallout with an abysmally cramped time schedule due to the tragic circumstances. Streams having to be relocated, people being disqualified under strict circumstances and even then for some reason the TO's committed to making the quarters a Bo5 which is an absolute mindboggling decision.

You know why people didn't take the Diddy Ditto seriously? Because M2K and Zero are best friends, roomies, dominated the doubles and knew that this was the most light-hearted, consequence-free fight of the entire tourney. That was a legitimately fun game. Taunts a plenty, crazy moves and an overall riot. The crowd was buzzing in such a fun way that it reminded me how fun Smash could be and that it wasn't all about winning.

But it had to come a head and screw itself up when the audience had to steal Zero's moment for no other discernible reason other than it being late and Melee being "the better game" or whatever, which was absolutely inexcusable and proved that a disappointingly large portion of the Smash community still lives in the stone ages.

These last two days were some of the best nights of Smash 4's competitive scene in a long time. And the audience wouldn't let it end on anything but a whimper, even though Melee ended up going longer. I'm honestly dreading EVO if this is the standard we're setting.

this whole post sums up the flaws i had with top 8 for smash 4. if the matches except winners semis and GF were Bo3 instead of Bo5, this whole "the better game" thing wouldn't happen, and the matches would've been different and very entertaining...than again, the Apex staff always had a reputation of not organizing their tournaments very well and the problems they had two days ago screwed up the schedule. imagine how different it would be if that didn't happen?

 

[Zork]

You're misconstruing the entire issue surrounding Smash 4's Apex showing and it's doing nothing more than poisoning the community further, compounding the real blemish yesterday that was the embarrassing display of the Melee audience.

Smash 4 didn't go on too long because of step downs from Brawl, nor was audience disinterest on account of uninteresting play. It went on too long because Apex was a complete fallout with an abysmally cramped time schedule due to the tragic circumstances. Streams having to be relocated, people being disqualified under strict circumstances and even then for some reason the TO's committed to making the quarters a Bo5 which is an absolute mindboggling decision.

You know why people didn't take the Diddy Ditto seriously? Because M2K and Zero are best friends, roomies, dominated the doubles and knew that this was the most light-hearted, consequence-free fight of the entire tourney. That was a legitimately fun game. Taunts a plenty, crazy moves and an overall riot. The crowd was buzzing in such a fun way that it reminded me how fun Smash could be and that it wasn't all about winning.

But it had to come a head and screw itself up when the audience had to steal Zero's moment for no other discernible reason other than it being late and Melee being "the better game" or whatever, which was absolutely inexcusable and proved that a disappointingly large portion of the Smash community still lives in the stone ages.

These last two days were some of the best nights of Smash 4's competitive scene in a long time. And the audience wouldn't let it end on anything but a whimper, even though Melee ended up going longer. I'm honestly dreading EVO if this is the standard we're setting.

1. M2K and Zero did numerous MK dittos back in Brawl and they were good friends back then too. The matches were actually still taken much more seriously. So that's hardly an excuse for borderline collusion.

2. The audience wasn't disinterested because of the gameplay? Is that why the players got booed several times during the more campy matches? You think a separate stream/better scheduling for Smash 4 would have been better and sure it would have gotten less hate. But don't you think reducing it to a side event, not even giving it the main stage would be even worse? You're basically saying it's not good enough.

3. If that was the best Smash 4 has to offer competitively, then I shudder for the future of this game. underwhelming. Once again if I had to sum up Smash 4 based off that top 8, I'd say it's basically a simplified Brawl that took some steps forward and several steps back.

 

[Jehtt]

If anyone ever has any doubts about Sm4sh being played aggressively, I'm going to point them to grand finals. ZeRo really went in during that game and it paid off.

It's not just because it's Diddy that won ZeRo either; Dabuz wrecked M2K's Diddy with Olimar earlier. ZeRo is a very talented player.

 

[Zork]

If anyone ever has any doubts about Sm4sh being played aggressively, I'm going to point them to grand finals. ZeRo really went in during that game and it paid off.

It's not just because it's Diddy that won ZeRo either; Dabuz wrecked M2K's Diddy with Olimar earlier. ZeRo is a very talented player.

All that really showed is that Zero is a level beyond everyone else. When you are significantly better than someone in any fighter, you can make the game look aggro even when it isn't. Also Diddy has several offensive options that other characters do not as well as the risk/reward being skewed in his favour. I don't actually think Diddy is the best Smash 4 character and believe he'll drop a few spots in the long run, but right now he's pretty much the metagame. People forget Rain is dominating tournaments with Japan with him as well.

 

[Jehtt]

If a player that's "miles above anyone else" is playing Aggro and winning, I think that says something. You can't discredit it, given that Dabuz has proved his talent too.

 

[Zork]

If a player that's "miles above anyone else" is playing Aggro and winning, I think that says something. You can't discredit it, given that Dabuz has proved his talent too.

You're missing the point. If I 3 stock an MK with Ganon in Brawl in one minute does that make Brawl a super aggro game? No, you'd probably correctly assume I was just way better than the MK to the point where the tiers and the playstyle did not matter.

Zero is actually one of the campiest players out there when he has to be, even said it himself several times. I guarantee you he will play differently once people get on his level. He played that way because he could afford to.

Again look at the matches in that top 8 that were the most evenly matched and competitive, not the few blowouts. None of them were fast paced.

 

[NotLiquid]

1. M2K and Zero did numerous MK dittos back in Brawl and they were good friends back then too. The matches were actually still taken much more seriously. So that's hardly an excuse for borderline collusion.

Collusion is a hilariously narrow-minded way to view what happened last night.

2. The audience wasn't disinterested because of the gameplay? Is that why the players got booed several times during the more campy matches? You think a separate stream/better scheduling for Smash 4 would have been better and sure it would have gotten less hate. But don't you think reducing it to a side event, not even giving it the main stage would be even worse? You're basically saying it's not good enough.

I don't know about you but even in spite of a relative deal of camp (a lot of which could be argued was on account of bad matchup knowledge) there was clearly an audience that were enjoying things like Abadongo's Pac-Man trying to get a win out of Rosalina, and almost succeeding.

And quit putting words in my mouth. I never said to relegate Smash 4 to a side event and you're straw manning hard as hell at this point.

3. If that was the best Smash 4 has to offer competitively, then I shudder for the future of this game. underwhelming.

Refer to previous sentence and quit straw manning by misconstruing my comment as "the best" rather than "some of", even though I was speaking of the entire tourney as a whole and not the top 8.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You people complain too much.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why are we paying attention to this troll? Congratulations, OP, all you've done is make this community a worse, more toxic place.There's literally no point to this thread. Hey, here's a great idea, let's revive literally the single worst thing about Brawl - the constant hate between Brawl and Melee communities.

 

[NewGuy79]

I'm struggling to determine what the purpose of this trend is other then just Pissing people off...

 

[Zork]

Collusion is a hilariously narrow-minded way to view what happened last night.



I don't know about you but even in spite of a relative deal of camp (a lot of which could be argued was on account of bad matchup knowledge) there was clearly an audience that were enjoying things like Abadongo's Pac-Man trying to get a win out of Rosalina, and almost succeeding.

And quit putting words in my mouth. I never said to relegate Smash 4 to a side event and you're straw manning hard as hell at this point.



Refer to previous sentence and quit straw manning by misconstruing my comment as "the best" rather than "some of", even though I was speaking of the entire tourney as a whole and not the top 8.

You said reschedule Smash 4. How can that be done given the time left without taking it off the main-stage? You either put it on a side stream with a lot less viewers or keep it on the main stage. Again, it would get la lot less hate on a second stream, but that's mainly because it's being hidden by the main audience which I do not agree with.

"I said some not all and didn't mean just the top 8". Why does that matter? Either way you are using this tournament as an example of the game played optimally. And clearly it was very poorly received from a viewer's perspective. You can't even argue it was just twitch trolls either, the in house crowd probably damaged its reputation even worse. I'm not saying the disrespect shown was right, but you can't deny it happened either.

 

[rpgcaster]

Complain all you want, all I'm seeing so far is that people disagree with you, which in turn really makes the whole statement "from a viewer's perspective" null and void considering all these people who were viewers, not really sharing your perspective. You don't think Smash 4 is a good game? Cool, think that~ At the end of the day, your complaining doesn't mean anything when there's still a community of people excited about the game, and supporting it. Play/watch what you want, who cares about what others think...

 

[NotLiquid]

You said reschedule Smash 4.

I said no such thing.

I DID say that the stream ran awfully late, which is an unfortunate truth that audience has to deal with considering the circumstances. It doesn't matter whether the audience is tired or not; none of the games should have to be sidelined, and most importantly, no one should have to ruin a game's moment just because they're waiting for something else.

Why does that matter? Either way you are using this tournament as an example of the game played optimally. And clearly it was very poorly received from a viewer's perspective.

Point me to this "poor reception" that wasn't just on account of how the Top 8 wrapped up because your misinformation is starting to show in a large way, especially considering the amount of excitement people were expressing at quite a number of pre-top games and the surprising variety of players and characters that went into the Top 8 beforehand considering everyone expected Diddy's Kong Quest. So far you've only showed one Tweet about not being excited about Top 8s, and that's not a good barometer for analysis.

Predictable Top 8s happen, and they aren't the end-all-be-all.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

You're missing the point. If I 3 stock an MK with Ganon in Brawl in one minute does that make Brawl a super aggro game? No, you'd probably correctly assume I was just way better than the MK to the point where the tiers and the playstyle did not matter.

Zero is actually one of the campiest players out there when he has to be, even said it himself several times. I guarantee you he will play differently once people get on his level. He played that way because he could afford to.

Again look at the matches in that top 8 that were the most evenly matched and competitive, not the few blowouts. None of them were fast paced.

Did you just say MK vs. Ganon would only be anti-aggro if Ganon mopped that MK? MK is probably the most aggro character in the game.

And how does campy stuff in Brawl/Smash 4 pale in comparison to constantly being camped out by Fox and Falco's lasers or shine pressure, Sheik's needles, IC's in general, Peach's turnips, random Pokestadium transformations, people constantly shielding Puff's aerials the whole match and trying to camp out puff instead of go in on puff more, etc.? How the **** is Diddy even a major problem compared to Melee where I constantly see Fox dittos and a switch to Peach, Marth, Falco, etc. as the most refreshing thing in the world compared to a Fox ditto even with those characters being as common as they are. Honestly, I'm not even that excited watching Melee anymore. Lack of more mid-tier and low-tier heroes in brackets along with crouch cancelling and jc shines being jank mechanics are making me think less of Melee than a year ago when I thought it was the perfect game. I don't get respected for being a Roy main in the slightest while people regularly compliment my Ike in Smash 4. I honestly just want to see Smash 4 more at this point, it's reminding me of early Melee where a lot was being explored and there were much more heated arguments of Sheik versus Fox. I feel like it'd be much easier to move on if Roy (FE) became a DLC character.

 

[Morbi]

You said reschedule Smash 4. How can that be done given the time left without taking it off the main-stage? You either put it on a side stream with a lot less viewers or keep it on the main stage. Again, it would get la lot less hate on a second stream, but that's mainly because it's being hidden by the main audience which I do not agree with.

"I said some not all and didn't mean just the top 8". Why does that matter? Either way you are using this tournament as an example of the game played optimally. And clearly it was very poorly received from a viewer's perspective. You can't even argue it was just twitch trolls either, the in house crowd probably damaged its reputation even worse. I'm not saying the disrespect shown was right, but you can't deny it happened either.

No one can deny that the game was not well-received by the vocal minority of the audience. However, they are not necessarily an indicator for every single person watching the stream either. There were 90,000 plus viewers (IIRC, it might have been less for Smash 4) and that number did not change much. One would think that if people were not enjoying the game, they would close their tabs and await Melee.

Perhaps the people watching Smash 4 are just different? A different fan-base, people spectating for different reasons, newcomers who do not crave or desire the intricacies of a "real" Smash. But hey, that is just a theory.

 

[Kraetyz]

Lol "crowd booing". Melee players are piss-poor sports, and the games were delayed because hey, the event was only 2 days instead of 3. Sm4sh is fine, stop whining.

As for the ledge-hogging argument: There are people who have been developing techs to punish the new mechanics (like that Shiek player who ledge-grabbed -> Bair, looked really good). Game's new, stop whining, and enjoy some Smash.

//Kraetyz, who didn't give a **** about Melee but watched all of Smash 4

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why are we paying attention to this troll? Congratulations, OP, all you've done is make this community a worse, more toxic place.There's literally no point to this thread. Hey, here's a great idea, let's revive literally the single worst thing about Brawl - the constant hate between Brawl and Melee communities.

"At least Melee didn't have !"
" isn't so bad, he has an even matchup with !"



This community...

 

[RanserSSF4]

No one can deny that the game was not well-received by the vocal minority of the audience. However, they are not necessarily an indicator for every single person watching the stream either. There were 90,000 plus viewers (IIRC, it might have been less for Smash 4) and that number did not change much. One would think that if people were not enjoying the game, they would close their tabs and await Melee.

Perhaps the people watching Smash 4 are just different? A different fan-base, people spectating for different reasons, newcomers who do not crave or desire the intricacies of a "real" Smash. But hey, that is just a theory.

i kind noticed something like that in the stream chat when i was watching the top 8!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm sorry, but @ Diddy Kong posting to stick up for is an incredible moment. We should bask in it.

I will say that this thread has been *way* better than the old Melee vs Brawl "debates". Back then if you posted pretty much anywhere on smashboards including the Brawl sections something controversial like "Brawl is a good game" you were going to get mobbed by people eager to explain how sinful you were for believing that. I pretty much have a baseline expectation of being in vocal disagreement with everyone around me on a semi-routine basis and I even found it unbearably toxic to be so "alone" all of the time. In this thread one poster has suggested (with some determination) that 4 is a bad game and just about everyone else has vocally supported 4 and voiced extreme disagreement with the criticisms toward 4. It's a completely different dynamic, and it makes me optimistic for a long-lived and healthy smash 4 community.

 

[Morbi]

I'm sorry, but @ Diddy Kong posting to stick up for is an incredible moment. We should bask in it.

I will say that this thread has been *way* better than the old Melee vs Brawl "debates". Back then if you posted pretty much anywhere on smashboards including the Brawl sections something controversial like "Brawl is a good game" you were going to get mobbed by people eager to explain how sinful you were for believing that. I pretty much have a baseline expectation of being in vocal disagreement with everyone around me on a semi-routine basis and I even found it unbearably toxic to be so "alone" all of the time. In this thread one poster has suggested (with some determination) that 4 is a bad game and just about everyone else has vocally supported 4 and voiced extreme disagreement with the criticisms toward 4. It's a completely different dynamic, and it makes me optimistic for a long-lived and healthy smash 4 community.

So basically you are optimistic that a different group of users are "alone" and dealing with unbearably toxic gang-beatings? Honestly, it goes both ways. He is entitled to his opinion, but instead he is accused of trying to make a hate thread despite evidence to the contrary.

 

[RESET Vao]

it's cool to hate on Brawl.

Yo, this right here. So many sheep. The same could be said for people who decide to "like" Melee cause it's cool to.

I adored Brawl, it made me who I am today (I did not play games competitively beforehand, now I am a regular tournament participant in a few games) and even if someone talks down on the gameplay I'll always appreciate it and all the good times it gave me playing it too.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So basically you are optimistic that a different group of users are "alone" and dealing with unbearably toxic gang-beatings? Honestly, it goes both ways. He is entitled to his opinion, but instead he is accused of trying to make a hate thread despite evidence to the contrary.

I do feel some sympathy for him being alone (the fact that he defended his position several times shows he believes what he says at least), but he came on a smash 4 dedicated forum and posted that he thought the game we're here specifically to play competitively is bad. Like if this were the Melee forum it would be a different context, but it's not. There's no way it should be expected for a contingent to show up here to support the side of trashing on 4 especially given that he was the one who "started it". I also don't think he's having to deal with anything too toxic; his motivations have been challenged by some (to be clear, I personally have no opinion on his motivations), but I don't think people have been overly cruel to him. I'm just saying, after years of Brawl players *not* sticking up for Brawl, I find it refreshing and encouraging to see so many people stick up for 4.

 

[Onyx Leo]

I do feel some sympathy for him being alone (the fact that he defended his position several times shows he believes what he says at least), but he came on a smash 4 dedicated forum and posted that he thought the game we're here specifically to play competitively is bad. Like if this were the Melee forum it would be a different context, but it's not. There's no way it should be expected for a contingent to show up here to support the side of trashing on 4 especially given that he was the one who "started it". I also don't think he's having to deal with anything too toxic; his motivations have been challenged by some (to be clear, I personally have no opinion on his motivations), but I don't think people have been overly cruel to him. I'm just saying, after years of Brawl players *not* sticking up for Brawl, I find it refreshing and encouraging to see so many people stick up for 4.

Honestly, having a community that calls any form of dissent an act of trolling or hate speech probably isn't the most nurturing environment for new ideas. Granted, the opening post didn't express many ways to fix the issues he brought up, attacking him for the sheer audacity of voicing his opinion is the wrong way to go about things. Having a mindless hivemind hugbox is JUST as bad as bad as having a hate-fueled community. With either extreme, there can be no room for growth. Even if you don't like what's being said, he's obviously not alone in his opinion. At least, if the twitch-chat, the live audience, and dozens of topics like this one across various message boards are any indicator. Plugging your ears and talking loudly over the issue isn't going to make a problem (In many people's opinion's, at least.) go away.

For the record, I'm a casual Smash player. As you can see from my join date and post count, I obviously just lurk here, but I thoroughly enjoy playing Sm4sh. Just as much as Melee, in fact. All I want to see is the scene getting better. With that said, you can't turn a blind eye to the fact that many people, myself included, found issue with the stream and the way matches progressed. There is a problem, and the community as a whole should find ways to fix it. NOT through ceaseless complaining, and not by ignoring negative opinions. Let's listen to each other, and work to improve the game as a whole.

 

[mega4000]

If anyone ever has any doubts about Sm4sh being played aggressively, I'm going to point them to grand finals. ZeRo really went in during that game and it paid off.

It's not just because it's Diddy that won ZeRo either; Dabuz wrecked M2K's Diddy with Olimar earlier. ZeRo is a very talented player.

Dabuz had rosalina, the best ****ing character in my opinion. Seriously, eventhubs is right that character is so cheap and boring to watch it makes me sick. He lost to mew2king because of the diddy meteor (it was unexpected an he used it in every match). Zero didn't do that so if he had went rosalina maybe he would have won, but he got scared. Everyone was complaining that sheik was a bad matchup to rosalina (Rosalina ***** it) same goes for sonic pacman megaman, every single character gets wrecked by rosalina aside from diddy kong. Thank God this game has diddy kong because if it wasn't for him the stupid waifu would dominate every single match. If you don't believe me just watch the sonic match up. The worst of this was the comentator sucking dabuz and rosalina's **** all the time when the character is cheap as ****. So if everyone is complaining about nerfs to diddy then of course stupid rosalina should be nerfed too. Thank God diddy exists!
*Also, just 2 diddys in top 8? both of them the best players in the world and one got ***** by an olimar? yeah.. keep complaining.. specially when rosalina ***** every single character besides diddy. Zero deserved all his wins, his skill is 100% superior to any player on the tournament and even without diddy he would use the next top tier char and win.