Event - Apex 2015 APEX 2014 Ruleset Proposal: Timer Change

[Delta-cod]

I will show up to Apex just to go to time every match, regardless of whether or not I win or lose.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I've timed out Yoshis before and I'll do it again.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People who lose to Yoshi through timeouts should quit this game imo.

 

[Delta-cod]

I've made that happen before, though.

 

[Mew2King]

I benefit from timeouts more than the vast majority of players, and I am telling you, it is TOO EASY to timeout with an 8 minute timer. When I went to Japan, Otori timed out Kakera, 9b, me, and then Rain timed him out, in a row. 4 of otori's matches went to time. Two or more at Apex. Otori vs mvd went to time at least twice (two are on youtube). So many sets go to time. 8 minutes is TOO EASY to time out. Sometimes matches go to time without even TRYING to make that happen. 10 minutes is A LOT better for this game, and I've been saying that for years. 8 minutes benefits me more than 10 minutes, but I'm also not trying to see this game turn into a game where you're ENCOURAGED to timeout because it's such an easy win condition either.

 

[Phan7om]

How about no timer... anyone consider that? lol
Edit: Im trollin' if u guys didnt catch it.

 

[Mew2King]

Only douchebags would disadvantage themselves by running the clock on themselves.

I will say right now, I will be a much more aggro player, and other campy players (like otori and some others) will also run away less or succeed at it less, if the timer is longer. I am very good at timing out and I do it to win but I don't like to be ENCOURAGED to do it because I think it's a lame way for the metagame to progress. 10 minutes would benefit the community as a whole and I've been saying this for years but everyone's being an idiot and not listening to me.

 

[xDD-Master]

Not Europe :D (Or at least not Germany)

We have been using 10 Minutes for 2-3 years now, and are pretty happy with it.
All the Cons people think it produces, are not true at all.

Right now we ARE considering 8 minutes again, but just because of APEX, because some people of us go to it. So they are used to the timer.
This basically was the reason why selebu created the thread, I first thought he joked when he said he will be making a thread for the oppisite proposal for APEX.

I think, some smaller US tournaments, like Rescue etc. should at least try out 10 minutes, and see if it works for them, or if it turns out to be negative on the tournament (I am sure it wouldnt).

Maybe you, jason, could post this thread on your facebook? Because you can reach a pretty widespread audiance, with your 1000+ friends and subscribers. Maybe even contact some tournament hosts yourself. At least try to change it, and test it if possible.

 

[Mew2King]

i talked to strife/keitaro/vinnie already they're talking about it

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

The first time MI implemented a 10 minute timer I timed 3 people out for the fun of it.

I don't think we've had one since

 

[Dekillsage]

European players don't play to use every single second on the clock to their advantage.
I honestly don't believe the top MKs or IC's will suddenly start magically approaching because they have 2 more minutes on the block. Maybe using the timeout strategy is less effective, but how safe your character is and how you can control the pace of the match doesn't change.
I don't expect everyone to become Nairo with 10 minutes, but I do expect the neutral game/camping game to extend further onto 9 minutes. While this fixes the timeout "problem" it doesn't fix the issue on time. Sets take long as it is thanks to certain someones and characters, but you think matches will go to less than 8 minutes because of a 10 minute timer? That would depend what your position is during the match, and I don't think that would change regardless of time. If you're way ahead, chances are you will approach more. If you're down then why wouldn't you start to take your time? The clock is with you, and even though a timeout isn't, how is timeouts a big concern when matches still take forever?

Tl;DR- 8 minute matches = 8 minutes with timeouts, 10 minute matches = 9+ minute matches, with timeouts still being a possibility.

 

[xDD-Master]

European players don't play to use every single second on the clock to their advantage.

So you have lived in europe long enough to come to that conclusion... right? Europe isnt only Ramin, Leon and Glutonny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoRqgUByMaA

We have timeouts too, but since we changed to 10 minutes, the timeouts got less, while most matches still won't go over the 8 minute mark.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yo check it out
It's an MK player doing exactly what I wrote before word for word

 

[Tesh]

This sounds like a metaknight problem. Why can't you people just accept his metagame for what it is? Look back over the years at all the things you guys have tried to do to keep him in line and you are still back at the drawing board looking for ways to tame him.

Lowering the LGL will help to some extent. Even in the ditto its common for MKs to chill on the ledge for a long time waiting for the other guy to get impatient or back off. I don't think Apex is a good place to make the game slower and less watchable.

 

[WindMajor]

To everyone who thought that putting in a 10 minute timer could deter people from aiming for the time-out right from the start of the match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoRqgUByMaA

This just proves our point.

 

[Delta-cod]

Lol that happened on FD

 

[Dekillsage]

Are you saying smashvilles moving platform would have made it harder to do?

 

[Delta-cod]

Obv. Snake woulda just platform cancel > utilt'd the MK over and over.

 

[Dekillsage]

Well you got me there

 

[Aidebit]

I remember SKTAR stream last year, someone (in actual event, not chat) said something to this effect;
'Yeah, we changed the timer to ten minutes, but Orion's still timing out people.'

 

[xDD-Master]

This just proves our point.

Are you stupid? It was the only timeout in the whole tournament, while there were like 3-4 matches that went like 7-9 mins, which wouldve definitely ended in a timeout. (The same applies to every other tournament where there are only 1-2 timeouts overall)

This proves nothing but your ignorance.

10 min timer doesnt make tournaments longer on avarage. We have been using 10 minutes since 2-3 years now, japan has been using it in the past.
And you know what? I NEVER saw timeouts in a japanese tournament, before they changed to 8 minutes, when timeouts started to happening.


But whatever, you will never accept it, as long as you never run a tournament yourself with a 10 minute timer, just to see that it doesn't really change the overall tournament length.

 

[Dekillsage]

You underestimate peoples drive to win. You talk as if timeouts aren't rare in 8 minutes when its literally a select few people who are too scared to approach when they're losing or getting outplayed. Who can blame them? Play to win
The finals at Sktar2 show how matches normally go, when MK isn't in play. But if you watch Zero vs Adhd (And I highly suggest you pay more attention to it) you notice zero only camped when he was down and refused to approach because adhd wouldn't make it easy on him. At the same time, why would ADHD risk his lead to attack a MK near the ledge? You should understand the level of risk that comes with approaching a patient MK, especially one of Zero's skill level. If that set should there have been 10 minutes nothing would have changed. Zero would have camped when he was down and go in when he had minimal percent. The fact that a player can stall for minutes at a time so he can make a comeback is disgusting, and it wouldn't make the matches faster. Once again, time outs aren't the problem, players having more time to work with will naturally lead to more patient play. It doesn't matter if a match didn't go to time but lasted 9+ minutes, that's still a problem.

Also if you need another example of this happening, watch Orion vs MJG at Sktar2. It's another example of it happening at high level play, so its not just top level play where this occurs. It's a strong way to play, but you can play like that with 10 minutes as well.

 

[xDD-Master]

You don't have to explain top level play / mindset to me, ROFLMAO. I know ALL of this, I played for timeout last time too, for the lulz (http://www.twitch.tv/livastyle/b/443745373 - 2:19:30 first match), even though I stopped when I had the stock lead.

Don't forget that with 10 minutes there still is a ledge grab limit. In Germany we use 40 for MK, 80 for everyone else. But we already considered lowering it to 30|60 some time ago, and also to only apply it to certain characters. Snake, Falco etc. dont need a ledge grab limit tbh.

 

[Delta-cod]

There's still a lgl, but as shown in that video, a timeout happened ON FD where ledge grabs clearly weren't a factor. Imagine if MK had platforms and scrooging to work with (Smashville, everyone's favorite MK counterpick!)

There's been talk about Smash 64 using a timer now too, because people simply will not approach due to the risk of it. Defensive and patient play is a thing, and without the timer forcing people to make a move, they will continue to take their time. People don't typically start a match LOOKING for a timeout. They play with the mindset of using every second they have efficiently. Giving them two more minutes is just going to give them more time to patiently camp it out until they find an opening.

 

[xDD-Master]

^ the problem with that reasoning is, that we THEN could argue to even lower the timer. But we all know why we don't do that, even more matches that shouldnt go to time, will go to time then.

Sure, even with 8 minutes there arent that many matches that "accidently" go to time, but they exist, and its always a sad thing when that happens.
This happens waaaaaaaaaaaaay less with 10 minutes. And since there arent that many timeouts with 8 minutes anyway, they would get even rarer with 10 mins, which is a good thing, + making matches end normally that shouldnt go to time.

Even if at a 64 man tournament every match goes to time, it would only add a total of ~1 hour to the whole tournament, compared to a 8 mins tournament where every match goes to time. Now think about it, how likely is it, that every match in a tournament goes to time even if everyone is camping the hell out of the game. Not many. 10 minutes would maybe add a total of 10-20 minutes to the whole tournament. Now when you think about, people like M2K/Zero who enter multiple tournaments and/or do hand-warm-ups, and some people needing hours for Ban/CP (+ coaching between matches), that adds waaaaaaaaay more time-delay to the tournament, than adding 2 mins to the timer would ever do.

 

[Delta-cod]

We don't do that because then matches would go to time way more reliably, and that looking for a timeout FROM THE BEGINNING would be viable. Seriously, you're looking at 2 minutes per stock, which while somewhat reasonable, is actually really unrealistic when you think about how certain characters play.

Only specific match ups "accidentally" go to time. Why is it a sad thing though? That's just how that match up is played. Get over it.

The reason timeouts get rarer with 10 minutes isn't because people magically start approaching and going aggro. It's because, by extending past 8 minutes, people will inevitably screw up and die. It doesn't cause a different mentality at all, except "Oh, I have two more minutes to find an opening, better take my time".

A lot of timeouts in 8 minutes are averted because people see they're losing to the clock, and thus approach and get killed. Or they go for a yolo spike or something and get killed.

 

[Dekillsage]

If you want to use the argument that it would only add like 20-an hour worth of time extra, that's pretty huge. Especially at a national, where apex has ended at like 4am twice already.

Also like delta said, a ledge grab limit doesn't mean much. If its not 15-20 for MK, he can use his other tools to avoid passing the ledge grab limit. Moving platform, multiple jumps, tornado to safety etc. Very few, if any, can approach an MK player who's stalling and playing defensive. While that type of play isn't practical for every match up, there are many match ups where it wouldn't be in your favor to approach when you're down. I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but matches taking over 8 minutes to end normally is no better than a match going to time at the 8 minute mark. Playing with the clock does not change, and in competitive smash a defensive player will always be rewarded for their patience.

Lets look at MK stalling on the ledge now shall we? Say a MK grabs the ledge, and decides to uair under it for 3 seconds. 3x40=120 seconds. 2 minutes MK can play on the ledge with. Add a moving platform, and add the time the MK player will not be on the ledge or just on the stage near it. That's only for 3 seconds btw, he can def do 5-6.
Lets include gliding under the stage (this shouldn't be legal for mk. period) etc etc

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

3x40=120 seconds. One minute and 20 seconds MK can play on the ledge with.

I don't know what you've been taught down in America, but here in Canada that's not how time works.

 

[Dekillsage]

I don't know what you've been taught down in America, but here in Canada that's not how time works.

Yeah I derped

2 minutes

Thx for the correction

 

[Delta-cod]

Even more time for camping!

 

[WindMajor]

This proves nothing but your ignorance.

No no no, this proves the point that people won't be deterred to time-out because of the 10 minute timer.

It's true that the average match goes longer with an 8 minute timer, because one of the player starts aiming for timeouts around the 6-7 minute mark, while they wouldnt in a 10 minute timer environment.

I've been saying 10 minutes for years but no one will listen. This actually DISCOURAGES timeouts because it's much harder to succeed at winning that way.

All the Cons people think it produces, are not true at all.

Yet you show a match that clearly contradicts all of that. A Metaknight player who was never discouraged by the 10 minute timer, and aimed for the time-out right from the start.

Are you stupid? It was the only timeout in the whole tournament

This is the Smash community, where one match is all it takes to make universal changes to the ruleset. I'm not being stupid I'm just being an *******.

 

[xDD-Master]

The reason timeouts get rarer with 10 minutes isn't because people magically start approaching and going aggro. It's because, by extending past 8 minutes, people will inevitably screw up and die. It doesn't cause a different mentality at all, except "Oh, I have two more minutes to find an opening, better take my time".

No, the reason timeouts get rarer with 10 mins, is simply because there are 2 minutes more for the match to end.
It changes the mentality around 7 minutes marker, where one player might go for a timeout in 8 minutes timer, while he wouldnt with 10 minutes. I had a 8 1/2 minutes match last time, and I would have definitely gone for a timeout if we were to play with 8 minutes instead of 10. Why shouldnt I? With 10 minutes though, I had 3 minutes left, while on my last stock too (Big % lead though), I didnt camp it out for the next 3 minutes, because chances of losing the lead by camping was higher than winning the match normally. (It was my Mario vs Lucas)

Maybe your logic applies to you, but it doesnt for me.

I live in an area where we use 10 minutes since 2-3 years now, who of us is more likely to know the effects on the metagame? I guess you, right?

A lot of timeouts in 8 minutes are averted because people see they're losing to the clock, and thus approach and get killed. Or they go for a yolo spike or something and get killed.

Wow and that's a good thing to you XD? Give players 2 mins more, so they can finish the match in a normal fashion.


@Dekillsage: The 10 minutes timer wouldnt even have an impact on the APEX delay except for the final 3-4 matches that went to time (I think it was 3-4 matches, so 6-8 minutes at max), because they had to wait for melee to finish anyway, so the possible delay that wouldve been produced by the matches before have been waited out anyway.

No no no, this proves the point that people won't be deterred to time-out because of the 10 minute timer.

Yet you show a match that clearly contradicts all of that. A Metaknight player who was never discouraged by the 10 minute timer, and aimed for the time-out right from the start.

This is the Smash community, where one match is all it takes to make universal changes to the ruleset. I'm not being stupid I'm just being an *******.

One guy =/= the people. While 1 guy might still go for the timeout (It was his only timeout anyway, and he mad it FOR FUN, not for winning, he wouldnt do it again), 10 others might be discouraged to go for a timeout, which would save time overall.


With "The Smash community", you mean the BBR and TO Unity Bull****, right? It's not like the whole smash community wanted to change the rules after that.

IMO there are like ~5-10 characters that probably need a LGL. Even though LGL isnt the perfect rule anyway, it has the best uses, as every rule that just bans doing that needs the confirmation or re-viewing the situation of a judge, which would just make tournaments more stupid.

LGL is easy to implement, as there is no "maybe". Remember when M2K got his match win taken away in Japan, when he was scrooging? That **** was waaaaaay more stupid, then LGL could ever be.

 

[Delta-cod]

No, the reason timeouts get rarer with 10 mins, is simply because there are 2 minutes more for the match to end.

That's exactly what I said. However, my post implied that matches that would have gone to time in an 8 minute timer match, would have simply progressed past the 8 minute mark and then "ended normally". Yeah, sure, there was no timeout. But guess what? The match took longer.

It changes the mentality around 7 minutes marker, where one player might go for a timeout in 8 minutes timer, while he wouldnt with 10 minutes. I had a 8 1/2 minutes match last time, and I would have definitely gone for a timeout if we were to play with 8 minutes instead of 10. Why shouldnt I? With 10 minutes though, I had 3 minutes left, while on my last stock too (Big % lead though), I didnt camp it out for the next 3 minutes, because chances of losing the lead by camping was higher than winning the match normally. (It was my Mario vs Lucas)

Maybe your logic applies to you, but it doesnt for me.

Just because you don't want to camp doesn't mean top level players won't. Sorry, but Lucas suckssssssssssss at approaching. If I had a lead that large, I would camp it out regardless. Why should I approach Lucas and give him a chance to combo me, when I can just camp it out and force him to approach with the timer? With 10 minutes, he simply has more time to potentially chip away with PKF (lol), while with 8 minutes, he's forced to make his moves earlier. Or time himself out.

You're just proving the whole "Europe doesn't play to utilize the timer" mentality US tends to have. The timer is a powerful option that can and should be utilized.

I live in an area where we use 10 minutes since 2-3 years now, who of us is more likely to know the effects on the metagame? I guess you, right?

I'd wager that you also live in an area where the top level of play is not as determined and willing to do anything to win as the top level of play where I win. I'm nearly 100% sure that, if the US started using a 10 minute timer, nothing would change, except that matches that would have ended at the timer, will end "normally" past 8 minutes, which makes the tournament take longer.

Wow and that's a good thing to you XD? Give players 2 mins more, so they can finish the match in a normal fashion.

That's not necessarily a good thing. That's an effect of having the timer running against you. If I'm down 20% in the last 15 seconds, am I going to sit back and camp, or go aggro and try to pull off a win? Naturally I'll go aggro since I have no other choice. Put on 2 more minutes, and the match now progresses past 8 minutes and makes the set take longer.

One guy =/= the people. While 1 guy might still go for the timeout (It was his only timeout anyway, and he mad it FOR FUN, not for winning, he wouldnt do it again), 10 others might be discouraged to go for a timeout, which would save time overall.

As I've said before, nobody goes for a timeout at the beginning of the match. However, with the extra time, people will utilize that time and be more patient at neutral at the 7 minute mark, meaning matches that would have had people "go for the timeout" will simply progress past the 8 minute mark to "end normally".

LGL is easy to implement, as there is no "maybe". Remember when M2K got his match win taken away in Japan, when he was scrooging? That **** was waaaaaay more stupid, then LGL could ever be.

The scrooging rule is quite clear cut. People should just not scrooge. It's in the rules, easily defined, easily noticed, etc.

 

[xDD-Master]

The scrooging rule is quite clear cut. People should just not scrooge. It's in the rules, easily defined, easily noticed, etc.

In Japan the rule was (IIRC): You are not allowed to go under stage twice in a row without touching the ground at least once.

Some "problems" I have with that:

What if you glide a bit past the middle under the stage, and go back to the other edge. Does this already count as twice?

What if I first go under the stage, then start a tornado after a ledge jump and grab the edge, and go below the stage again? Would the rule still count? I never touched the ground, on the same time, I went completely from one edge to the other, but above the stage, the rule shouldnt count, because actually it just wants to prevent staying under the ledge forever.

Now you cant go under the stage on PS1, you could potentially glide some time vs. the pillar in the middle, and still go back to the ledge pretty savely, would this still be covered by the rules or is this ok?

Then there also are cases like Delfino, where you could scrooge once, then start scrooging another time but land on the appearing ground below you, would the rule apply?


All this grey-area stuff would just lead to endless discussions, who actually wants that? Of course it probably wouldnt end like this, because most of the smash com is nice and would just ignore the grey-area most of the time. But then some guy actually calls breaking the rules, and the ****storm starts.

 

[Delta-cod]

Gliding a little past the middle is grey area. The rule is largely against going back and forth, and it's easier for a player to force the MK to go fully across just by being present on one side.

That's a terrible idea, and doesn't count. Because that's not scrooging.

That's not scrooging. Potentially could be called on stalling clause.

You touched the ground, you're good.

The only questionable case is the first one. Scrooging isn't that hard to call out. M2K knows what scrooging is, and if it was in the ruleset, he shouldn't have done it. Period.

 

[xDD-Master]

That's a terrible idea, and doesn't count. Because that's not scrooging.


You touched the ground, you're good.

At first: I still didnt touch the ground, even if its a terrible idea, if the ruleset says I have to touch the ground inbetween someone could call me out for breaking the rules. (I think the ruleset was, that you have to touch the ground at least once, before going below the stage a second time)

At second: But I touched the ground in the middle of my second scrooge.


If RC was still legal, the rule would become even more weird.


As said, this grey-area stuff is really stupid, and I am sure I could think of even more scenarios where it would be hard to tell if it was scrooging or not.
Ofc. it also depends on the anti-srooging-rule definition.

Still, LGL is way easier to apply. It will never need judges or anything, only to players that know the rules. No grey-areas possible.

 

[Doomolish]

You know that Smash 64 is trying to use a timer for his matches because it is too campy sometimes?

 

[standardtoaster]

1 stock, 4 minutes, best of 5

 

[xDD-Master]

1 stock, 4 minutes, best of 5

 

[WindMajor]