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Anything Can Change! Chrom for SSB4 - Closing Remarks, and an Invitation

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guedes the brawler

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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. go outside, get some coffee, and stop being so butthurt.
WTF man. have you followed the discussion i was having, per chance, to know what i was talking about? i was

not suggesting one would take Robin out of the plot, i was arguing with someone about that hypothetical scenario; and i didn't bring it up.

i'd suggest growing up.

Chrom, the number one DLC candidate? Really? I can think of at least 5 characters that are more likely than him.
Admittedly, number one might be overstating it a wee bit, but there's still no reason that I can think of to say he isn't a viable contender all the same! ^_^
yeah, it really depends on what strategy he'd go for DLC, assuming individual characters and not bundles.




Supporters of this movement, pay attention!

pie. that's all i wanted to say.






just kidding. anyways; within the week we will know for sure the
default roster of this game, and i think we can all agree, regardless of how much you like the newcomer choices and the overall roster... that many fan-favorite and/or deserving characters were left out of this iteration of smash; assuming the current leak is true (even if it's not, we can't be having much more than 2 extra newcomers besides DHD, Jr and Dpit.).

Waiting for confirmation on DLC is nice. But what if we started voicing our wishes now already... and not just the Chrom supporters, either! Let's get support from other fanbases to get a BIG Ridley-sized movemetn going on! Newcomers and Cuts alike!

Ice Climber fans, Mewtwo fans, Snake fans, Wolf fans, Lucas fans, Toad fans, Dixie fans, K.rool fans, the few Pig Ganon fans, Chrom fans, Mewtwo fans, Ridley fans... you see where i'm going? I am sure most people around here want at least 2 of these characters to be in smash 4 and it seem like they won't be getting that wish. They might be satysfied... but why not want more? why not go further? Possibly even bring fans from Franchises who have yet to be represented such as Golden sun fans or Advance Wars's?

With so many fanbases, so many supporters; we could make our voices heard! I mean, honestly, besides the Mewtwo fanbase (which has been strong since... Melee) none of the other fanbases are big enough for this kind of movement to get notoriety.


We could help turn Smash 4 into a 9001/10 game rather than just a 9/10 game!


or not. what do you guys think?
 

Naglfarii

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I concur with you. No definite answer as it is for dlc but chrom is the number one candidate for dlc
Any vet that is being left out from brawl (or mewtwo from melee) is more likely than chrom, and even then... Fire Emblem already has 4 characters, more than a lot of other fairly large series.
 

Opossum

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I wouldn't say Chrom's the MOST LIKELY DLC choice. A good choice, and likely the most likely Fire Emblem choice? Sure. But the cut vets from Brawl, Mewtwo, Chorus Kids, and a few others would arguably make better "Top" DLC choices. Chrom's got his niche there though.
 

SmashWarrior202

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So... Yeah, Chrom. Honestly, I'm open to the idea, but, here's my take on the whole thing.

I believe it was in an interview with Famitsu that Masahiro Sakurai stated that Chrom was considered but ultimately rejected because, I'm I'm likely paraphrasing things here, Sakurai did not want a character who was just another swordsman. This is rather confusing, since Lucina is not only in the game, but is almost a direct clone of Marth. So why would he be against including Chrom with the logic that he'd just be another swordsman, when you include Lucina, who IS just another swordsman (er, woman), whose moveset is lifted from Marth to boot?

Well, I think it might have something to do with variety, as well as Sakurai's logic on including clone characters. If Sakurai IS going to include a character whose moveset is similar to another character's, they'd better have something else going for them. For example, I've seen many a complaint about Shulk being in the game, because he, too, is another swordsman. However, I feel that not only is Shulk different, in that his sword is drastically different from any sword seen previously, but Shulk also uses his Monado Arts to add a lot of strategic value to the character. Same goes to Robin, who is also technically a swordsman, but there's more of an emphasis on his tomes and magic then his swordplay. When it came to Chrom, I guess Sakurai didn't see that much going for him that made him that much different then, say, Marth or Ike. Now, I HAVE seen a number of people suggest ideas that would make him different, such as switching between a lance and such, but I guess those ideas never occurred to Sakurai. I'll touch up on this more in a minute.

For now, let's move on to Lucina. So, why include her of she's going to play almost identically to Marth. Well, again, according to Famitsu... Well, actually, some of this information may be inaccurate, and feel free to correct me on any of this, but from what I recall, there was originally supposed to be another character that didn't quite make the cut and, not wanting to sacrifice the roster size, Sakurai game Lucina her own slot on the roster. Coupled with that is the fact that Lucina was originally intended to be an alternate costume for Marth, but Sakurai and his team picked on little details that made her different, likely things like size, the shape of her version of the Falchion, etc. According to Sakurai if a character who's similar to another character has enough differences going for him/her that make him/her unique, they'll be their own character, which is probably why Dr. Mario and Dark Pit are supposedly going to be playable as well.

Given the backlash against this idea, I don't know if it was wise to do it at all. Really, I kind of wish I knew just went on behind the scenes during development just know exactly why they committed to this. Not that I don't like the idea, but clearly a lot of people don't anyway. Regardless, she's playable now, and we're just going to have to deal with it.

But what does that mean for Chrom? Well, like I said, it IS technically possible to make Chrom a unique character while still being a swordsman. But if he WERE to be a DLC character, well, that just begs some questions... The most important of which is, what's going to happen to Robin's Final Smash? Will it stay the same? Will it change whenever Chrom's playing? Will it permanently change to another character if Chrom becomes playable? If so, then who? Who else would fit Robin's "Double" Final Smash? I feel like not just anyone can replace Chrom, given how close they are in Fire Emblem: Awakening, and since Lucina's already playable, well... Also, DLC characters, in general, are tricky to deal with, because they change the meta of the game. Making a new character for, say, Mario Kart isn't the same as making one for a fighting game, especially one with a competitive scene like Super Smash Bros. When you create a new character, you have to think about how they'll fight against other characters, and you also have to think about how those other characters are going to fight against them. You have to make sure the character is well-balanced enough so that he/she/it doesn't overpower other characters, but also doesn't match-up poorly against the other characters either. There are a lot more factors to this then just tossing together a character to appease the fans. In fact, it would be easily just to create the character while developing the main game then to just wait until after the game's released to think about adding him/her/it...

But who knows, maybe Sakurai DOES have DLC characters in mind, and is working on them as we speak... We might not know about them until after the Wii U version is released, though. For now, I'll just say this: Chrom as a DLC character, I'm totally fine with that... but I'm not getting my hopes up about it, either. It would be cool, but I kind of doubt it all the same.
 

False Sense

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So... Yeah, Chrom. Honestly, I'm open to the idea, but, here's my take on the whole thing.

I believe it was in an interview with Famitsu that Masahiro Sakurai stated that Chrom was considered but ultimately rejected because, I'm I'm likely paraphrasing things here, Sakurai did not want a character who was just another swordsman. This is rather confusing, since Lucina is not only in the game, but is almost a direct clone of Marth. So why would he be against including Chrom with the logic that he'd just be another swordsman, when you include Lucina, who IS just another swordsman (er, woman), whose moveset is lifted from Marth to boot?
Lucina was added as a sort of bonus character from what was originally an alternate costume, and this was after Sakurai had already added in Robin as a totally unique Fire Emblem newcomer. There was also no cut character that Lucina took the place of; that was a rumor.

Basically, Chrom was rejected because he'd offer nothing new; Lucina was chosen because she was an easy addition after something new was added.
 

SmashWarrior202

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Lucina was added as a sort of bonus character from what was originally an alternate costume, and this was after Sakurai had already added in Robin as a totally unique Fire Emblem newcomer. There was also no cut character that Lucina took the place of; that was a rumor.

Basically, Chrom was rejected because he'd offer nothing new; Lucina was chosen because she was an easy addition after something new was added.
You know, it really is a shame that that was the case. Sure, it seemed like Lucina was going to be added no matter what, whether as a new character or an alternate costume, but it just makes Sakurai look like a hypocrite saying Chrom wouldn't be anything special, then adding Lucina who's literally nothing all that special (no offense to Lucina fans).
 

Naglfarii

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You know, it really is a shame that that was the case. Sure, it seemed like Lucina was going to be added no matter what, whether as a new character or an alternate costume, but it just makes Sakurai look like a hypocrite saying Chrom wouldn't be anything special, then adding Lucina who's literally nothing all that special (no offense to Lucina fans).
well making her marth training wheels is pretty damn lame in itself. but if i had to choose between lucina as a marth clone or chrom as a marth/ike clone, I do prefer getting lucina personally. she's cool and smash needs more girls.
 

IceAnt573

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well making her marth training wheels is pretty damn lame in itself. but if i had to choose between lucina as a marth clone or chrom as a marth/ike clone, I do prefer getting lucina personally. she's cool and smash needs more girls.
Sure she might be advertised as that, but it looks she might play better than Marth according to people who have played the final build.
 

Naglfarii

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Where
Sure she might be advertised as that, but it looks she might play better than Marth according to people who have played the final build.
Where have you seen that? she wasn't available in the demo thing that's been all over the last few days. That'd kinda go against what sakurai said himself so I'm pretty skeptical, but it'd be great if she was actually a good fighter
 

IceAnt573

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Where

Where have you seen that? she wasn't available in the demo thing that's been all over the last few days. That'd kinda go against what sakurai said himself so I'm pretty skeptical, but it'd be great if she was actually a good fighter
  • "This can't be overstated enough, his range feels significantly shorter (by significantly I mean that it's noticeable. It's all relative, of course), and seems to be his most notable nerf. Spacing his tippers seems to be considerably more skill-based due to the range needed." - Zipzo's thought on Smash 4's Marth

    Lucina won't have as much of a problem with this because she has no tipper and thus less reliant on spacing.
 

Skyblade12

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Sure she might be advertised as that, but it looks she might play better than Marth according to people who have played the final build.
Lucina isn't playable in the final build demo. All the "analysis" of her is supposition based on her trailer. We have no game data backing up that sentiment.

Lucina won't have as much of a problem with this because she has no tipper and thus less reliant on spacing.
But she will have less power overall. Zipzo also said that spacing is very different in general on Marth.
 
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Naglfarii

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erm yeah but her range is just as short and she has less power in her attacks than the tip of marth's moves
 

IceAnt573

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I imagine Lucina's playstyle is basically to rush in and keep sword swiping which is different from Marth's zoning. There's also implications of her aerials having little lag to them. Of course, this is all speculation really.
 

Rakath

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@ SmashWarrior202 SmashWarrior202 : The specifics of what happened with Lucina (and, by extension, Pittoo and Doc), from the Sakurai interview is this.

Lucina, Pittoo, and Doc were all costumes for Marth, Pit, and Mario. Somewhere late into development some characters they were working on did not 'work out' so they were removed from the roster (because they aren't functional characters, this is basically the Silver Surfer in MvC3 situation). Because the CSS looked 'incomplete' with the opened slots, costumes were tweaked into clones and added to the roster (thus the odd spacing for them at the end of the page instead of with their castmates).

If your choice is between 'you get two identical sandwiches' and 'you get one sandwich' there's only one obvious choice to take. And you could complain 'but I wanted a variety of sandwiches, not two of the same one' but that wasn't a viable option in the end, so the believed slight is one only in your mind. And all of this is well after Chrom was put aside for Robin (which was done before coding even began, according to the interview).
 

SmashWarrior202

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@ SmashWarrior202 SmashWarrior202 : The specifics of what happened with Lucina (and, by extension, Pittoo and Doc), from the Sakurai interview is this.

Lucina, Pittoo, and Doc were all costumes for Marth, Pit, and Mario. Somewhere late into development some characters they were working on did not 'work out' so they were removed from the roster (because they aren't functional characters, this is basically the Silver Surfer in MvC3 situation). Because the CSS looked 'incomplete' with the opened slots, costumes were tweaked into clones and added to the roster (thus the odd spacing for them at the end of the page instead of with their castmates).

If your choice is between 'you get two identical sandwiches' and 'you get one sandwich' there's only one obvious choice to take. And you could complain 'but I wanted a variety of sandwiches, not two of the same one' but that wasn't a viable option in the end, so the believed slight is one only in your mind. And all of this is well after Chrom was put aside for Robin (which was done before coding even began, according to the interview).
Well, that's what I thought, but someone else told me that was just a rumor. Could you please cite a source from where you heard/read that?
 

Rakath

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Well, that's what I thought, but someone else told me that was just a rumor. Could you please cite a source from where you heard/read that?
Part of it is the wording of the Famitsu article, part of it is the reveal trailer, part of it is the ESRB leak.

The Famitsu article explains that if Lucina and Marth didn't have different sword traits, she would be a costume. Her being a different person has no impact on costume status (the release weekend confirmed this). The wording is a bit odd, but I can't tell how much of it is Sakurai being obtuse or the translation being a translation.

Second is her reveal trailer, everyone revealed (except Lucina) has their own trailer, and is a starting character. Lucina is an unlockable character, and sharing a trailer with Robin. This is an anomaly, anomalies are questions, and questions lead to answers. Why would she be different, unless she had a different plan. If she were a costume for Marth, she wouldn't get a splash screen, much like Kuropi/Dark Pit in Palutena's trailer. This would explain her inclusion in Robin's Splash art, and the trailer, as she was a part of the game. But she was not set-aside as a new character.

Finally the ESRB leak, the three clones are at the end, it's possible to rearrange the CSS to put them into the right sections with their primary casts. This is another anomaly, answered by the roster being organized before the characters were added. If this organization was created first, then these characters were added, it would take a lot more work to reorganize.

The thing is, everyone was trying to claim she 'took' someone else's slot, which doesn't make a logical sense. The six Melee clones were because they didn't have the time to finalize Dedede (who would have taken the same development time).
 

guedes the brawler

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Part of it is the wording of the Famitsu article, part of it is the reveal trailer, part of it is the ESRB leak.

The Famitsu article explains that if Lucina and Marth didn't have different sword traits, she would be a costume. Her being a different person has no impact on costume status (the release weekend confirmed this). The wording is a bit odd, but I can't tell how much of it is Sakurai being obtuse or the translation being a translation.

Second is her reveal trailer, everyone revealed (except Lucina) has their own trailer, and is a starting character. Lucina is an unlockable character, and sharing a trailer with Robin. This is an anomaly, anomalies are questions, and questions lead to answers. Why would she be different, unless she had a different plan. If she were a costume for Marth, she wouldn't get a splash screen, much like Kuropi/Dark Pit in Palutena's trailer. This would explain her inclusion in Robin's Splash art, and the trailer, as she was a part of the game. But she was not set-aside as a new character.

Finally the ESRB leak, the three clones are at the end, it's possible to rearrange the CSS to put them into the right sections with their primary casts. This is another anomaly, answered by the roster being organized before the characters were added. If this organization was created first, then these characters were added, it would take a lot more work to reorganize.

The thing is, everyone was trying to claim she 'took' someone else's slot, which doesn't make a logical sense. The six Melee clones were because they didn't have the time to finalize Dedede (who would have taken the same development time).
realistically speaking they could've went with other clones instead of Lucina. Like Alph.
 

Oblivion129

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@ SmashWarrior202 SmashWarrior202 : The specifics of what happened with Lucina (and, by extension, Pittoo and Doc), from the Sakurai interview is this.

Lucina, Pittoo, and Doc were all costumes for Marth, Pit, and Mario. Somewhere late into development some characters they were working on did not 'work out' so they were removed from the roster (because they aren't functional characters, this is basically the Silver Surfer in MvC3 situation). Because the CSS looked 'incomplete' with the opened slots, costumes were tweaked into clones and added to the roster (thus the odd spacing for them at the end of the page instead of with their castmates).

If your choice is between 'you get two identical sandwiches' and 'you get one sandwich' there's only one obvious choice to take. And you could complain 'but I wanted a variety of sandwiches, not two of the same one' but that wasn't a viable option in the end, so the believed slight is one only in your mind. And all of this is well after Chrom was put aside for Robin (which was done before coding even began, according to the interview).
I just wanted to say that your sig is awesome and Mia is best girl.

Anyways, I didn't expect to come back to a few new pages in this thread. I'm personally looking forward to seeing Chrom's role in SMTxFE. Advertisement for that game could be his best chance for DLC but it's still like lower than 1% chance.
 

Rakath

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realistically speaking they could've went with other clones instead of Lucina. Like Alph.
Yes, I imagine they could have. Your point?

Lucina adds another female to the roster, is a Lord in Awakening, and part of a franchise that's a lot longer than Pikmin. She also has a very distinctive easy to separate anti-gimmick while Alph would need a second gimmick to make him separate from Olimar.
 
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Naglfarii

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I wish lucina was just an alt, then I could always use her and forget marth exists
 

Naglfarii

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If she were an alt she'd be just as good as marth instead of being some garbage ezmarth4kids
 

guedes the brawler

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Yes, I imagine they could have. Your point?

Lucina adds another female to the roster, is a Lord in Awakening, and part of a franchise that's a lot longer than Pikmin. She also has a very distinctive easy to separate anti-gimmick while Alph would need a second gimmick to make him separate from Olimar.
My point is saying some people are justified in saying Lucina stole someone's slot. which is what you were talking about in part of the quoted... part.

Alph doesn't really need a new gimmick. Get rid of Purples and Whites, change his physics a bit maybe to something a bit faster and heavier. I dunno; it's not hard to whip up something.-
 

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Maybe it's just me but, I think if part of Lucina being is Smash is simply because she's a female character, then that's a bit ridiculous. Characters should be in due to their personalities, abilities, and quirks. Not because they're male or female.
 

Wintropy

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Maybe it's just me but, I think if part of Lucina being is Smash is simply because she's a female character, then that's a bit ridiculous. Characters should be in due to their personalities, abilities, and quirks. Not because they're male or female.
Agreed. Lucina is a strong, dynamic character with great morals and a smashing storyline and she would be great regardless of her gender.

But damn it is she cuuuute~
 

guedes the brawler

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Agreed. Lucina is a strong, dynamic character with great morals and a smashing storyline and she would be great regardless of her gender.

But damn it is she cuuuute~
yes, and that's it.

Lucian is only cue because she is female (AKA she has opportunities for being cute). She wouldn't be drastically different from Gerome or Yen'fay if she was male, and considering most gamers are male, i doubt she'd be as popular.

but how should i know.
 

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yes, and that's it.

Lucian is only cue because she is female (AKA she has opportunities for being cute). She wouldn't be drastically different from Gerome or Yen'fay if she was male, and considering most gamers are male, i doubt she'd be as popular.

but how should i know.
Being female and being are not inherently connected. For example, I could easily call Henry and Inigo cute, and not Sully.

I mean, "cute" is subjective, but she pulled off that Yukata pretty well. I'd call that cute. That's not the only thing there is to her, though. Granted, I don't see what the gripe with her is, anyway, since she really isn't ruffling anyone's jimmies as far as "slot potential".
 

Wintropy

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yes, and that's it.

Lucian is only cue because she is female (AKA she has opportunities for being cute). She wouldn't be drastically different from Gerome or Yen'fay if she was male, and considering most gamers are male, i doubt she'd be as popular.

but how should i know.
I was being ironic, bro. I'd love her regardless. ;3

Also, just to say that I'd be all over her if she was a guy and looked anything like, say, Lon'qu or Frederick. Gender's a flexible premise anyway - I'd still love her if she was a cute guy or a masculine woman.
 

BertholdtFubar

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So I ask this as a serious question and not meant to incite debate.

Is there any reason to believe Chrom can be playable? He's Robin's Final Smash. Even in the event of DLC, are people expecting Chrom to be removed as Robin's Final Smash and be made his own character?
 

guedes the brawler

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Being female and being are not inherently connected. For example, I could easily call Henry and Inigo cute, and not Sully.

I mean, "cute" is subjective, but she pulled off that Yukata pretty well. I'd call that cute. That's not the only thing there is to her, though. Granted, I don't see what the gripe with her is, anyway, since she really isn't ruffling anyone's jimmies as far as "slot potential".
yeah, but there is a big double standard about acting in a cute way, between both genders; and as such it's easy to guess male!Lucina would have less opportunities to be cute than Female!Lucina does.
 

Wintropy

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yeah, but there is a big double standard about acting in a cute way, between both genders; and as such it's easy to guess male!Lucina would have less opportunities to be cute than Female!Lucina does.
I can personally offer you a list of examples to prove that that is empirically and verifiably untrue.

That is beside the point, though, and this is not the "Lucina's cute - discuss" thread. It's the "Chrom for DLC" thread, so let's not start a huge argument here of all places.

So I ask this as a serious question and not meant to incite debate.

Is there any reason to believe Chrom can be playable? He's Robin's Final Smash. Even in the event of DLC, are people expecting Chrom to be removed as Robin's Final Smash and be made his own character?
I think we've agreed that we can always swap out Morgan in Robin's Final Smash if Chrom is playable in that match. ^_^ That or we can just stop and realise that there could be many Chroms aiding many Robins in the event of a of a mirror match, so canon kinda goes out the window overall. >w<;;
 
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guedes the brawler

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So I ask this as a serious question and not meant to incite debate.

Is there any reason to believe Chrom can be playable? He's Robin's Final Smash. Even in the event of DLC, are people expecting Chrom to be removed as Robin's Final Smash and be made his own character?
As said before, it's pretty obvious Sakurai didn't really consider Chrom seriously thanks to Robin being a thing. with Robin no longer "being a rival' and without the rush of bringing the normal game on time, there is definitively time for sakurai to overocme Chrom's biggest "weakness", which is moveset.

Chrom is cheap(er) to make than other DLC newcomers because they already have a lot of stuff working for him already. Like his model (which is significant, models are expensive and Chrom's is a very good model. Compare to, say, Takamaru and Dark samus). This, in addition to how Chrom is really fitting for smash (popular, important, relevant, and doesn't need many ass pulls to work though Roslaina kinda shows this isn't a problem for Sakurai) Would definitively grab Sakurai's attention when he (if he) decides to hunt for DLc newcomers.

As for the final smash problem, that doesn't take much to solve. Morgan doesn't need many changes from Robin's model and their voices can be pulled directly from awakening (though the latest news reveal they might need new victory animations...), they can simply hand-wave it as Playable!Chrom is from a different timeline" or simply give FS!Chrom a recolor when a Robin is on the field.


Chrom being a FS can be seen as a disvantage but for a DLC movement, it works quite in our favor. Victory aniamtions, not so much.
 

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Let's keep this on Chrom, guys. :p
 

Opossum

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OpossumGuy
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Welp, time to put the torches and pitchforks to good use. :p



To be more on topic, I think we should look at all options. Let's say Chrom was added as a last minute clone of Marth, just stronger and a bit slower. Would you rather clone Chrom or no Chrom?


I'd personally be fine with any Chrom.
 

Deviddo

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Welp, time to put the torches and pitchforks to good use. :p



To be more on topic, I think we should look at all options. Let's say Chrom was added as a last minute clone of Marth, just stronger and a bit slower. Would you rather clone Chrom or no Chrom?


I'd personally be fine with any Chrom.
I myself would prefer Ike Chrom if we had to have a clone, or alt.
 
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